smarter

When this topic pops up here it usually leaves me scratching my head in wonder and a little confused.....if it is a biblical perspective people are after they should consider the biblical responses in scripture to the false teachers of the day. There is some seriously harsh and damming language and I guess we could could accuse Peter, Paul, Jude and others of being bitter or we could consider scripture unforgiving. False teachers are people actively working to separate people from Jesus Christ. Leave them alone. That is what the bible tells us. Minimizing who they are and what they do...is sinful.

As far as forgiving being for our own hearts and mental well being.....hmm, self-centered, self-concerned and self-focused forgiveness.....well, that is an interesting perspective.

Wow...I didn't get that from that quote at all. Are you really forgiving someone if you are just thinking of yourself? That is more of being on an ego trip than forgiveness, isn't it? If you are truly forgiving someone, aren't you supposed to be doing it for them, in spite of what they did? That is my understanding, anyway. You do prevent their behavior from destroying your heart if you truly forgive.

Nice little phrase.....but, in my opinion, it misses the mark.

I know this is not the doctrinal forum.....but a quick search on blueletterbible.com

on "forgiveness" is accompanied with forgiveness of sins in all 5 references

[after pentecost] and their sin separates them from the lord and savior.

Their behavior (sin) is "destroying THEIR heart" -- not mine.

.

I wasn't thinking from a doctrinal perspective when I made my post. I do like your point, though. Their behavior is certainly destroying their heart. I am of the opinion that you can also let their behavior destroy your heart if you allow it, hence bitterness, anger, and mistrust of people in general as a result of mistreatment in the past. From your statement you seem to imply that you do not let the results ot their actions get into your head and sour your outlook on life. That is a good way to live, and I attempt to live that way, also. However, if I ever find that I need to have to have a doctrinal basis to forgive someone, then Matthew 18:21-22 will be good enough for me.

Something that I read that is pertinent....."Forgiveness doesn't excuse their behavior. Forgiveness prevents their behavior from destroying your heart.":

Perhaps you meant to say, "I ASSUME" that Robert Schuller's Chrystal Cathedral has security.

But I would ask whether you exercised any level of diligence to verify whether or to what extent your assumption had any validity.

You could always call them and ask.

Chrystal Cathedral

I have been to the Crystal Cathedral, although not when services were being held. The doors to the cathedral itself were locked at that time, but the out buildings containing the giftshop, bathrooms, etc were open. I didn't see any overt security personnel.

dabobbada......did I miss the sarcasm in this?

I seriously doubt that wierwille ever 'used to pal around' with Oral Roberts and Billy Graham. Yeah, I know.....wierwille

always was name-dropping to make himself look important and all. Mrs. Wierwille's book documents alot of men (and women)

who helped vpw and/or spent time with him......neither Oral nor Billy are found in the pages of her book.

Time and time again, wierwille was the wee little student at the seminar......and later boasted that he and Reverend So-and-so

were working the word together and saw the same thing or some-such drivel.

[/quote

I don't go around talking about this normally but hopefully it may open the eyes of the person who started this thread.

I am married to one of Oral Roberts' relatives. She used to play at his house with his children. She saved personal letters from him and his wife, Evelyn. When she was in college, he came to town and stopped by to have lunch with her. She still keeps in contact with his two remaining children. She confirmed that Oral Roberts and Billy Graham were good friends and even took vacations together. She didn't even know of Wierwille's existence until I told her about him and my former involvement with The Way. If Roberts and Wierwille were buddies, there is more than a good chance that she would have heard of him.

True story. My brother was in Scotland and decided to attend a church service. He enterd a church and sat down to listen to the service. One of the ushers asked him to leave because he didn't belong to that church.

(Christianity is such a funny strange religion as practiced by so many throughout history - here a guy says He's come to draw all near, challenges exclusivity both culturally and socially, champions for the weak and sick who pretty much get screwed coming and going, respects children, women, talks to tax collectors for God's sake and even gives the wealthy a break - basically runs a shop that caters to anyone anytime.....and then ends up with followers who spend most of their time figuring out ways to exclude anyone they can lest I dunno, someone get a seat at the Heavenly Banquet that isn't dressed properly. It's weird that what is said to be the most powerful message to come down the pike since "Hey look at this! - round things roll!" gets turned into what amounts to a square hula hoop.)

This should be plastered on billboards all over the country.

With apologies to Johnny Cash..........

TWI, you've been livin' hell to me

You've hosted me since nineteen seventy-five

I've seen 'em come and go and I've seen them die

And long ago I stopped askin' why

TWI, I hate every inch of you.

You've cut me and have scarred me thru an' thru.

But I walked out a wiser stronger man;

Mister Martindale why can't you understand.

TWI, what good do you think you do?

Do you think I'll be different when you're through?

You bent peoples' hearts and minds and you warped their soul,

And your BRC walls turn my blood a little cold.

TWI, may you rot and burn in hell.

May your walls fall and may I live to tell.

May all the world forget you ever stood.

And may all the world regret you did no good.

TWI, you've been livin' hell to me.

Don't know how similar my situation was to yours, but after my Way wife and I divorced, and I started dating again, I adhered to a policy of openess about my former Way association. I didn't have any problems from it. I am married again, ironically to a relative of a famous evangelist. Even she understands that the old can be cast away.

I am going to wish everyone.....MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!A whole lot better than what they tried to get us to say (happy household holidays).

By opening this site I think Paw did more good for more people than the Way ever did. Although I had learned about the abuse from one of the victims, I was able to get a better grasp of how pervasive the evil really was after joining Greasespot. My attitude grew from being glad I left and got on with my life to being glad for the others who left and hoping they are able to get on with their lives. I wish everyone well and hope your lives are filled with love, joy and happiness.

Here's some food for thought, maybe. I personally never held a position higher than a twig coordinator. It's easy for me, sometimes, to point fingers at those who held those higher positions and list their offenses. From that I can derive a great feeling of self-righteousness. If I get honest with myself, though, I realize that my heart wasn't much different. The only difference between me and some of these abusive leaders, quite frankly, is opportunity and sphere of influence. I sure wanted to climb that corporate ladder, though!

Broken Arrow gets it.

I was on the way back from a showing of that movie where Martindale danced. I realized that the Way had become a big waste of time. I did not attend ministry functions above local level after that. I still continued with the local fellowship until I heard about the womanizing among the leadership. I had only stayed with the Way because I thought that was where I could learn about God. When I realized it was a sham, I was gone. I didn't have second thoughts.

Reality is that TWI made us all "hurters" even the lowliest leaflet in the twig hurt someone else. Think of those that were shunned for not ABSing enough, not believing enough, not being meek enough.

How many times did we not do a kindness to someone else because leadership told you that they "needed to rely on their own believing"? ?

I long ago stopped looking for apologies from others no matter how deep the wrong--

Those who know my story know the "Cost of TWI" in my life.

I can ultimately do 2 things

I can apologize to those I've wronged and become a better person

I can ask God not to hold the wrongs done me against the responsible persons at the judgement. When Jesus Christ was dying on the cross he never said "I forgive" he said "Father forgive".

Ultimately it is the judgement of God that matters. To spare those who have wronged you that judgement heals your soul-- the healing of their soul is up to them.

We as humans have no way of knowing what goes through others hearts in the dark of night.

Is it wrong to feel hurt and pain? -- absolutely not-- the lost years and fallout in my life-- are a constant ache-- but life goes on-- expecting an apology from someone is a useless endeavor- leave them to their own thoughts-- far more painful than anything you can do to them.

And step forward in your life

I can recall only one bad experience with anyone higher on the tree than "Twig Leader". Other than that, it was all "Joe Blow Believer" acting like they were more spiritual than others. I believe that thinking we were learning the Bible as it had not been taught since the first century made the average Wayfer arrogant. Anyone still think they are "tuned into God"? Realizing you were played for a fool is humbling isn't it?

I was also corps...and I echo what George says...

Here's the thing...when I used to listen to a bible teaching or I was praying or I was at a "fellowship"...I was thinking about God...not about getting laid. What kind of monsters were running this "ministry" that they were setting themselves up to get laid while pretending to be Christian ministers?

At least when a guy is hitting on you at a bar, there's no pretense...these guys were LYING IN GOD"S NAME!!! Their motivation was to get laid...and that's pretty sick in my estimation.

You, Sir, have a way with words.........Every place I lived while involved with The Way, there were people who screwed around. I attributed it to people having a weak moment. When I learned that it was endemic to the organization as a whole...all the way to the top.....I ceased my association immediately. ANYONE who would use their position of authority to influence another to sexually service them is a P.O.S., no matter how caring and generous they may seem to the general public.

I have learned a bit about his family recently. So much tragedy!

Waysider, thank you for posting "The Red Thread". I cut and pasted it and emailed it to Oral Roberts' niece.

I think that the potential public outrage would make it extremely difficult. I don't like the idea of making it any easier for them.

You're right. The framework would certainly be in place. I just can't see how anyone, even Uncle Sam could "shut down" the Internet.

The link that was provided gave a decent breakdown of how people get appointed to the FCC. Ultimately it will be political appointees deciding who is being fair and who isn't. It would open a potential nightmare of claims that a broadcaster didn't go as far as the claimant wanted in attempting to be fair. Eventually a broadcaster could decide that airing controversial subjects isn't worth the hassle. That may not actually happen, but someone wanting to shut up someone else would have wide open avenue for doing so.

They'll have no problem with that.

As far as who decides who is on the FCC, I'm pretty sure it's the President with Congressional approval. As far as whether Greasespot would be ended, I'm not even sure the Internet is on the radar right now, it's more aimed at radio and television. That is not to say it couldn't be targeted. The Fairness Doctrine states that you have to present an alternative point of view and Greasespot provides that. No offense, and I don't think anyone will be offended, GSC is small potatoes for the U.S. Gov and so is TWI. It'll be awhile before we get their attention. Sometimes small is good. The U.S. Gov. wants people who are exposing their stuff

Political appointees deciding what is fair? Good luck on that. I am not a member of a political party. That doesn't mean that what I think is fair would be thought of as fair by someone else. What one person considers a moderate position, another considers as extremism. A person's own prejudices affect their decisions, even if they tell themselves otherwise.

And who decides who is on the FCC?

The FCC I guess.

Who determines what is "fair"?

you forgot member of al-qaeda, illegitimate offspring of Idi Amin, dope dealer and baby eater

Naaaaa--why should things be "fair"?

Who brought up this question WorldNetDaily?

It'd figure

Well said.

Some rememberances from my mother about my father.....My father was one of eight children raised on a farm. He didn't graduate from high school until he was twenty because my grandfather needed him to help work the farm, which kept him out of school a lot. My father never liked farming, although he was very good at it. He was always talking about how he would rather own a store or some other business.

My grandfather suffered a series of strokes, and had been advised by his doctor that the next stroke would probably be his last. He called his now grown children into a family meeting to ask who would volunteer to take care of their mother after he had passed. One after the other declined for various reasons, mainly because my grandmother didn't like any of the people her children had married. When my grandfather asked my father if he would stay on the farm to take care of his mother, my father said, "I will do anything you ask of me, Pa." So my father stayed on the farm and took care of his mother for the rest of her life.

There was a woman who did seasonal work on the farm, mostly in the summer. After my father had died, she asked my mother if she could do some work to earn some extra money, so my mother hired her to hoe the weeds out of the garden. It was a summer day in South Carolina, and eventually the woman came to the door and asked if she could have a cloth to wipe the sweat out of her eyes as she worked in the garden. My mother gave her one of my father's old shirts to use as a rag. Later on, my mother looked out of the window and saw the woman standing in the garden crying. My mother went out to her and asked what was wrong. The woman said that one day she was getting a bucket of water out of the ditch when my father happened to drive by. He saw her and stopped and asked if she had running water in her house. She told him no. He paid someone to go to her house and drill a well for her and put a pump in for her.