Deciderator

Suda, Nice reading what you posted. You know, when we look around the world there is so much tension and problems and the outrage du jour, it's nice to have a little haven to go to where we can relax, enjoy each other's company and be spiritually edified. I agree with you on the value of the small group. There's just less organization. And I know how threads have a way of degenerating into the same arguments between certain people that they have in other threads. But in this one I think it would be nice to keep it positive as much as we can and maybe put off some of the enmity elsewhere and maybe love each other a little more than we have before. Also we can give credit where credit is due to those who did run their twig in a way that was good. One time we did a "First century twig" where we didn't dress in robes (wish we had) but there were only candles and the coordinator greeted us with the good news that he'd heard from Paul and read an epistle. The neighbors just saw people going in the house with the lights off and candles all over and looked at us kinda funny....

Ours didn't disappear. Either fowls of the air would suddenly appear and swoop in to take it or lightning bolts would come down....

Maybe so. I suppose you won't mind if I quote your posts and then say that noooooo, that's not what you believe, and then proceed to make something up and claim it to be your thoughts. At first I thought I may just be passing through but I have already met some nice people who are not just sitting there trying to club others.I think I am in for some good times here. And you and me need to hang out in person so you can see I am not the person you want me to be... Sorry I can't reference the verse, I don't have my notes here. There is a verse which reads literally, "No word of God is without power."

Doojabe, what I am finding out here is that if you like a quote by someone, then you endorse everything that person ever did or said or was ever accused of. That Anais Nin, she ahem! got around, didn't she? Me too. I just said no picking and choosing. Sorry you missed it. Doctrine for doctrine. Learning for learning. That uncomplicates it now, doesn't it? I'm glad neither of us has to save mankind....

I can't blame it on the site. This one was just my own bumbling and not paying attention. My 'pooter skills are nearly nonexistent but I should have been more watchful.

In other threads a number of Greasers have noted enjoyable times they had at twig, so I was thinking we could gather-em together here. Some of the best times fro me was when there was just a few of us. As I noted previously, we had some organic gardeners in our twig, and there I learned a lot about gardening. I also changed the way I thought about the food I was putting in my body and to pray about it. We'd gather up a bunch of stuff and prepare it in someone's kitchen and the whole time was just so nice for everyone. I have been reminded of those times because I have some orange bell peppers ripening and in the next few days will bring some in and stuff-em with tomatoes and some onion I'll cook up with some bacon. It was something I learned waaaaaaay back in the day at twig. So, let's hear about your own good times in twig (and please, the negative stuff can go in plenty of other threads)

I can only speak for myself, but I don't see it that way. It's either believe that some Scriptures are for our learning and some for our doctrine or not. All of the God-breathed Word is of power. No picking and choosing. It's just that some is for our doctrine and some is for our learning. I still read instead of skipping over those geneologies in there, but that's just me.

Yep, I certainly botched the quote feature there. I apologize. Even thought you didn't take offence, it coulda happened. I'm probably the least-skilled person on the board with computers. To give you an idea, I just learned to cut and paste a few months ago. Go ahead and laugh, I don't mind. Catcup I hope you understand I did not intend to put words in your mouth and I hope that counts for something. Of course it doesn't mean I wasn't wrong and I hope you accept my apology.

GET THE 'TO WHOM' CORRECT! Great lesson there. That one really cuts through a lot of confusion. yepyepyep - I'm still using that one. seems like every time I turn around someone is trying to put us in the Gospel period and thus deny the finished accomplishments of Jesus Christ.

We all have our foibles. One thing that gets under your skin may not bother me, and vice versa. I don't like people deliberately lying. Especially when that is supposed to somehow bring me to some "truth". Maybe you are the sort who doesn't mind meeting someone, and that person immediately deciding on their own that you held certain beliefs or had certain opinions, and then that person conversed with the false "you." Of course those who do such things are to be forgiven. I try to be quck to forgive. In this forum, these out-and-out favbrications have been made about me, and they are right there for all to see. I am owed apologies from some people here. I try to be quick to forgive and do not see a mumbled "sorry" as the end of it. No, the practice which i have sort of unconsciously adopted over the years is afterwards to try to get along with the person I have offended or who has offended me. I spend tome with them, look for areas of common ground. I happen to be a Southern gentleman, one of impeccable bloodlines and I enjoy an opportunity to charm, especially a lady. You would really enjoy being around me, pond. that doesnt make any sense does it? I don't think, I know, and you ate aware of this.The thing to do is to use the quote feature as I am here to directly address what the person is saying. And pond, when you see someone taking my words and then saying something such as, "Well when I hear someone say ______[quoting me}_______ then I know it means ____[words and meanings not in my post]_______ then please feel free to speak up. I can't get to every one. And some are just plain dopey and a waste of time. Pond, you can't deny that since I began posting here that some people have tried to mold me into fitting a strictly-defined stereotype and they resist any opportunity to see anything else. They act like they're brainwashed or something.........

Why thank you, rainbow! I can only say what works for me, and I have not gotten to where I think I forgive too much... ...maybe some others have, but not me. And I'd like to love more and be more kind, even to those who do not deserve it.............. But that's just how I roll...

It seems like there were a lot of fine people like that around. I say they don't get enough credit.............

Rascal, you ever have purslane? Look it up, it's jam-packed with vitamins and lots of people treat it like a weed! It has a nice growth habit, getting, oh, 6 or 8 inches high. It resembles a jade plant. I think it's pretty. I'll throw it on a sandwich or in a salad.... Sadly, it's already dying back. That's the way it is, it come in in May, just when you're wondering if it will return, and then dies out at the end of July. I got me some really sweet orange bell peppers about to ripen. Sometimes I'll pick one and just pause and eat it right there without even rinsing it off..... You like orange bell peppers?

Y'knowwwwwwww, when I was growing up, there just wasn't much divorce. It was a rare thing, and considered scandalous and disgraceful. Until I was 18, among the people I associated with across a rather wide social spectrum, there was only 2 or 3 families I knew personally where the parents divorced. Then things changed and I was around a lot more people who had come from broken homes. I would shake my head ruefully at the stories of daddy or mommy not being there for Christmas or other tales of woe including stories where one parent would try to use the kids against the other parent. UGH! I had one friend whose mother had been married 4 times and all those kids were messes. So I'd get to thinking about how those poor kids hardly had a fair shot starting life. The more I thought about it the sadder I'd get for them. I could get to where I was feeling kind of guilty because I had a stable home with two parents who loved each other and us kids as much as any parents cld be expected to do. Yeah, guilty. And I get the same feeling for some on the board who are still in a rut that goes back to the days when hair bands stalked the earth. Their anguished cries and bitter tears, the wardrobe o'sackcloth and no cosmetics but for a 35 gallon drum of ashes. I mean, if they could just be free of the constant agony just for a day!--------- just being carefree like others of us, running towards each other on the beach in slow motion as clouds formed in the shape of charging unicorns above..... But no, there they wallow. Maybe one day, one day, one of them will look at the others and say, "Why sit we here until we die?"

Since we were out on the periphery, and because of the twig coordinator, we missed out on the Wierwilledale Chainsaw Massacre. While others were hanging by their wrists on a cold, damp dungeon wall, nervously eyeing the brazier of hot coals and seeing the ends of the iron pokers turning red, then yellow, then white, we were having some delightful meetings and really sweet fellowship. We had some twiggers who were skilled gardeners. Sometimes we'd get together in the garden and bring in a bunch of stuff and cook it up. I learned a lot more about growing and preparing organic food at twig, and to this day have a descendant of a purslane plant someone gave me. Well, descendants. I let it go and use it for ground cover in my garden. Growing in my compost-rich garden, that purslane, when mature, takes on a nutty taste, kinda like a pecan..... And while the Plaster Casters were in the van, along with a selection of sex slaves imported from Belgium there to train the local talent, gittin drugged up, and all, back at twig we were sometimes getting together and singing songs for 45 minutes or so. Yeah, every now and then we'd have a niice song twig. Good times. And while others were being subjected to sleep deprivation (and not by a newborn baby), being thrown in the "Cooler," modeled after the one on Hogans Heroes,, or being waterboarded, Corps style, we were having picnic twig down by the river, doin' a little swimming, a lil' sunbathing or maybe a turn with the rowboat. Sublime times. Yep yep yepyepyep, we had some good times. Most folks were glad for us that we were having a jolly good time, not knowing that HQ was installing a President Bush-style torture policy 20 years beforehand. Sadly, happiness on the part of others seems to set some sourpusses off. Tut tut.

I certainly see what you mean. I posted one thing positive I took from the class, something that has helped me and others and suddenly a group decides they know what I think, what idols I have, my opinions on other matters, how I related to certain people, etc. Rather than take my words to indicate my opinion, and nothing else, some decide they can tell what I REALLY mean, then proceed to ascribe to me things I did not say, then debate the straw man they set up, and then pretend they were addressing me all along! Somehow this is supposed to open my eyes. I'm no spring chicken, and something I am learning more and more as I age is the importance of loving and forgiving people who have done me and others harm. I see more and more the forgiveness, grace and mercy of my heavenly Father in the Scriptures and in my own life as time goes by my capacity for having those qualities increases. I'm not saying I got-em mastered, but I'm working on it. I don't know, maybe some on the board are unhappy that someone would take seriously, "...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." I have never heard anyone say there is too much kindness in the world I have never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world I have never heard anyone say there is too much love in this world. Sorry that angers some people, but that's just how I roll.

What threats? And my accusations are born out in black and white for anyone who goes back and re-reads what I posted. If you had someone making up things about you how would you react? And if you made up something about someone else, accidental or otherwise, once you saw you had done it, what is the proper thing to do? Hmm? The Word originally revealed. I want to figure out what was in the original manuscripts and know how to put them together. That's what I'm looking for. That's what I've always looked for.

They may well be true, but everyone deserves a fair shake. They deserve the presumption of innocence and the right to face their accusers, the right to cross examine hostile witnesses, the right to present exculpatory evidence, the right to present friendly witnesses and the right to appeal after conviction. Are you referring me to all that? I am only concerned with how the Scriptures are handled. The only one I have dealt with you named was Chris Geer. I was at Gartmore for 6 weeks in 1990 and I didn't see anyone raped or turned into sex slaves. I saw a guy twist an ankle. My twig coordinator had given me some material (History of the Mystery and some other things) he wasn't supposed to give me and I took it to Gartmore with me. One day not long after I got there I was out hitchhiking and Geer picked me up. I told him about this stuff and that I was bringing it back, had made no copies and would be happy to pack my bags if he didn't like it. I told him I wanted him to clear my twig coordinator for giving me this material. Geer was nice about it, smiled and told me to keep the material, cleared my twig coordinator and I stayed with no repercutions. The classes I took there, the fellowship and the things I worked on my own made for a wonderful experience. I'm sorry if that makes you unhappy. I am not concerned with personalities or their personal failings. I started out with seeking a better knowledge of the Bible and that's the path I am trying to stay on. Please don't make any presumptions about what I have worked on my own, what I hold forth or what I believe.

WHOOPS! My mistake. I'm sorry, I was wrong. It was pond. But I sure do loves me the Southern womens! The only thing I will listen to concerning spiritual matters is how someone handles the Scriptures. I was so distant from a lot of TWI that they did not have the impact you imagine. In the last 17 years since I have been away from them I have not retreated anywhere. It's not my style. While I lead a quiet and peaceable life, I'm also restless in many respects. I'm a man in motion and I am moving forward with my life, not backward. I like doing new things. Since I posted in this forum, there has been case after case of people just out and out fabricating false opinions and motivations and ascribing them to me. Purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see TWI or PFAL and go NUTS! NUTS! NUTS! I hope you understand that when someone treats me that way right of the bat, I am not as open to what they say as I would have been otherwise. I hope you paid attention to what I posted about giving people a fair shake in terms of accusations. You may someday end up in a courtroom on the other end of false accusations as I have been. Accusations accompanied by evidence that, when presented on their own before I had a chance to challenge them, looked mighty bad.

It's in the thread title and everything...

To answer the question at hand, my first twig coordinator kept us free from problems and politics going on at higher levels. We had an added advantage of being somewhat geographically isolated. I can't speak for anyone else, but in our case we were pretty independent as you describe. I would add that as I understand it the way it was supposed to be was the limbs were supposed to support the branches and the branches were supposed to support the twigs. In my own experience, it did not always work out that way. There were those further up who did not want WOWs sent to where I was living. And things were not always hunky dory in the twig. All in all, for me it was a positive experience. I angered some people at TWI but I did so by acting honestly in what I believed to be in the best interest of the twig I coordinated. If I ran into any of them on the street I wouldn't mind having a beer with them because I bear them no grudges. That's just how I roll.

Thanks, Johnny. Well said, sir. You too, oldiesman. Instead of pretending to read something I did not write, you took me at my own word.

You sure you want to get into the "mess with the screen name game," flydiaper? Waysider, there you go again, addressing something I did not say. You do this a lot? Pond: same response. You are pretending I said something I did not. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you get as offended as I do when people falsely accuse you of saying and believing certain things. Rascal, if indeed they did those things it was NOT ok. Our taxes finance something in this country called the "criminal justice system." You may have heard of it. Over 2 million Americans reside in things called "jails" or "prisons" because they have been convicted of crimes like those listed above. This "criminal justice system" has been developing for hundreds of years and over that time there have arisen certain procedures and protections to try to insure the guilty are dealt with properly and the innocent are not wrongly punished. In America, there is something called the "presumption of innocence." In the legal system where we deal with crimes like rape, assault, etc a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. An accusation, no matter how horrid, is just that, an accusation. Even when there is much evidence and many eyewitnesses, a person is still presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. No matter how heinous the crime, the accused has a right to confront the accuser and to cross examine witnesses, present exculpatory evidence, etc. Maybe you heard of a case recently at Duke University where some blokes on the lacrosse team were accused of rape. Initially, a lot of people thought them guilty. A lot of people thought Byron Halsey was guilty, too. In 1985 Halsey was living with a woman whose 7 year-old girl was raped and strangled and her 8 year-old brother was killed by four nails hammered into his head. Their bodies were found in the basement of the home Halsey shared with the mother. A neighbor, Cliff Hall, testified against Halsey and in 1988 a jury found him guilty. He narrowly escaped the death penalty and last May was released from prison after DNA evidence exonerated him and implicated Hall. Take the time to look up The Innocence Project and you will find they have been able to get something like over 100 people off of death row who were wrongly convicted of capital crimes. Accusations must be taken seriously, especially those you mentioned. But keep in mind an accusation and presentation of evidence is only a small part of a system to determine guilt or innocence. There have been many, many cases where a seemingly open-and-shut case against someone turned out to be wrong. In Spotsylvania County, Virginia there was the case of the Lisk sisters who were raped and murdered. They were last seen getting into a white van. Fibers were found on their bodies. Investigators had a profile of the sort of person who might fit this crime. Sure enough, down the street lived a loner-type loser who fit the profile. He had a white van and was thought of as being kinda creepy. He moved away right after the crimes. He had a history of petty crimes. Captured in Florida, a blanket he had owned in Virginia was seized in his van and forensic technicians at the state crime lab matched it to threads found on the bodies. He had no alibi on the date of the crimes. The whole community "knew" he was guilty and was ready to lynch him. Fortunately, his lawyer thought to challenge the alleged "perfect match" of the fibers and sent them to the FBI crime lab. The results showed there was no resemblance at all betweeen the fibers from the bodies and those from the blanket in the van. If you saw the pictures in the paper of the comparisons, you would be shocked that sane, expert technicians would make such a connection. But they did and an innocent man could have been executed by the state on the basis of their testimony. I am not proclaiming anyone innocent or guilty. I am saying that seemingly overwhelming evidence can cause a rush to judgement which results in the conviction of the innocent. It happens more frequently that we would like and so what we must do is adhere to the system we have developed. Abandoning that system puts us on the path to disaster. But rascal, I do like when you call me "dear." You mind if I call you "honey?" I'm a Southerner and I say it reeeeal nice.....

Eyesopen, I was simply answering the question of the thread topic. I aplogize to all for the long posts, too. Jonny Lingo, Now that's funny! Waysider, thanks for the welcome. Yes, I was aware of material VP lifted. I learned it back in the 20th century, dealt with it and moved on. Wordwolf, what I said I meant. I happen to be in a better position than you to know what I meant. Changing the meaning of my words in order to debate what I didn't say is one-a them "straw man" dillios. Before I am accused again by someone who knows me not of "hero worship" or something similar, let me elaborate a little on the sort of men I described earlier. Instead of pretending to know who my heroes have been, let me tell you myself, because I know better than you. Please keep in mind that I learned to read with books about their deeds, spoke to them and others who were there about their experiences and lessons they learned many times; and whom I was trained to not be in awe of, but behave as if they were just "one of the boys." Those begging for autographs and looking on in drop-jawed suck-up wonder never got invited. Ever know anyone who has killed with their bare hands, used a bayonet to eviscerate a man and have his guts spill in their lap or have arterial blood geyser into their face; and not just once but many times? I tell you what, it'll send a shudder through you to be playing bridge with someone who did, and have that thought enter as they smilingly hand you the deck of cards to cut. I learned fearlessness from "Chesty" Puller, who was in a hole fighting the enemy close enough to toss a hand grenade in there, and when the warning was shouted he just snorted, spat at the thing and shouted above the din, "I'm Chesty Puller! They can't kill me!" and durned if the thing wasn't a dud. It was he and the next man, "Silent Lew" Walt who taught me "the first rule of leadership is 'Follow me!'" Silent Lew's first of two Medal of Honor recommendations came on what became known as "Walt Ridge" on New Britain. They were hit on all sides and from the trees above when they entered a complex of 37 perfectly camoflaged bunkers and men were dropping like flies around him when he stood and ran back with a runner to get a cannon which they and others pulled and pushed up a hill in a hail of heavy fire concentrated on them. One after the other those around him were killed or wounded and lemme tell you it's not like in the movies where they grab their shoulder for a second, grimace, tie on a hankie and continue apace. They worked the thing up the hill a ways, fired it, and then moved it again. It was the only thing to do to save those men's lives and in the process he pulled both arms out of - I said out of - his shoulder sockets. He refused evacuation and morphine and remained in command. That night the fighting was hand-to-hand and he looked up, helpless, to see a Japanese soldier with a raised samurai sword about to whack him in two. Silent Lew struggled with his .45 and no one is sure if it was he who killed the enemy soldier or whether it was an American artillery shell burst directly overhead that did him in. And how did that come to pass? because in the noise and confusion and roar of battle, with fear thick and emotions blazing amid the shrieks of those around him hacking each other to pieces, Walt had to keep his wits about him and did. He ordered everyone to take cover as he ordered our artillery to fire on his own position. And he did so with a voice as cool and calm as a golf game announcer (hence the nickname). There are many stories, amazing stories about this forgotten hero who called me "son," and many thought him foolhardy if not insane to continually expose himself to enemy fire in battle after battle leading his men forward. This is a man who had to look some of them in the eye when he sent them to their deaths. Besides leadership I learned believing from him. He truly believed that God would not let him die in combat, and He didn't. He was thoroughly convinced of God's will and he walked out on that in the midst of daunting horror we can not imagine. Let me give you an example of what he had to overcome. Once, I believe it was on Pelileu a tank rolled over his foot. My mother asked him, "Lew, those things are sure noisy and not very fast, why didn't you just move your foot out of the way?" He replied, "Sometimes you are so scared you become completely paralized and can't." Ray Davis, in the retreat from the Chosin Reservoir in Korea led his men for miles at night in waist-deep snow in weather that was 20 - 30 below zero, not counting the wind chill factor. Well, it wasn't all waist-deep snow. A lot of it was up a mountain that was snow and rock, and they engaged and defeated a vicious, brutal enemy in order to rescue a group of Marines about to be wiped out. David Shoup waded through 5-800 yards of chest-deep water to get to the shore of a liitle island called Betio in the Tarawa atoll. The whole way there he was not only under heavy fire from the enemy, but he and his men were wading through the bodies of hundreds of dead men - and that was before he even had a chance to organize and command the attack once he got ashore. He went on to become Commandant and it was he who stood against the majority opinion of the Joint Chiefs and was a major factor JFK did not order an invasion of Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Had we done so, nuclear war would have erupted and none of us would have ever taken that PFAL class. It wasn't until many years later that we found out there were 70 nukes there we didn't know about. The commander was under a standing order to use them if we landed on Cuba. These kind of men were mighty special. I learned much from them and was comfortable in their presence. Some I knew for decades. There were a number of others like them whom I knew or met socially. And I will add, without going into detail, that they were all as fallible as you or I or any of those some of you take sport in savaging. I saw and heard things I wish I hadn't. So when, as a grown man, I was exposed to those whom some of the rest of you idolized, I did not. I gave respect just like I give respect to anyone who treats me decently. I was not blinded by idol-worship. What I find funny is the fact that what I cited that I learned and kept from the class - IT'S THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD! can be believed at the same time you reject everything VP ever did and engage in all the other criticism. As the cliche goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

The only thing that concerns me is getting a greater knowledge of God's Word and then holding it forth to the best of my ability. From the time I learned to walk I was around some of the most powerful political and military leaders in this country. Decades before I even heard about PFAL I had learned to not idolize them, but to know that I was on the same level with them and to deal with them as peers. When I got to PFAL, I never held Lynn, Wierwille, Geer or anyone else on a pedestal. I had seen personal failings of powerful, charismatic men in my own living room and knew to expect it from others. The only thing approaching holding someone as a hero was reserved for a number of men in the Marine Corps I knew who wore that pretty blue ribbon with the little white stars on it because I knew just what they did to earn it. And even around the likes of Lou Wilson, Ray Davis, David Shoup and "Chesty" Puller, I learned to keep my awe in check. My first twig coordinator also made it a priority to stress that it was the Word that was important. This made it easier for me to have more of a take-it-or-leave-it attitude toward the politics and the organization. Once I got my sleeves rolled up and got to really working the Word and came across things in PFAL I did not understand or disagreed with, I set them aside. Everything I believe now and share is stuff I have worked for myself extensively. There were times when I was surprised when I had done more in-depth research than those you mention and others.Not having seen what I have worked, please don't presume to know it. I used to get a chuckle when I would find my Strong's wasn't so comprehensive after all and I have notes of a few things they missed. Those things offend me when done by anyone. I have done some pretty rotten things myself. So have you. I am not interested in lurid one-sided stories. I have heard and been around too many of them in my own life. I am unaware of any claims VP and the rest committed mass murder,but I am aware that Saul murdered Christians and let's think for a moment of how Peter and James and the rest were able to even tolerate his presence without killing the sumbitch. Somehow they managed, and the love and forgiveness they had is something we all need. I have never heard anyone say there is too much kindness in the world I have never heard anyone say there is too much forgiveness in the world I have never heard anyone say there is too much love in the world I think what you are doing is transferring your own former prejudices onto me, figuring that since we both took the class, that we both came away with and held those same prejudices all these years. Sorry, but what I see is hurt people lashing back and obsessing on events that took place decades ago. We all were hurt, but no one can walk forward in a straight line if their gaze is fixed backward over their shoulder. Stop picking at that scab and let it heal. It looks to me as if the bitterness held in is eating people up because they are holding it in. Abandon the false doctrine and hold to that which is true and workworkwork that Word on your own, no matter who it comes from. The person who is on the money today could do the human thing and make a mistake tomorrow. That goes for all of us. Something valuable I still hold that VP said was it is easier for me to forgive others when I think of what I have been forgiven for. I don't think Wierwille of Martindale ever hunted down Christians and murdered them in cold blood, but all of our Bibles contain records of those in the early church who found a way to forgive and love Saul of Tarsus. We have those records to not only marvel at what they did,but also to understand what we may do, and must do, in order to move God's Word. Rascal, I know you mean the best and I thank you for it.