Deciderator

Dot, this isn't my first board. So far it appears to me that there are some who have a knee-jerk reaction whenever they see something TWI-related. They don't see that it is possible to have learned something from someone who was accused of bad things. It is possible to condemn some, but not all things related to VP Wierwille. The fact he is accused of some dastardly things does not invalidate getting the 'to whom' correct when working the Scriptures, for example. Clearly neither of us owes the other excuses. My personal taste is for threads to remain on topic and new threads begun when a significant digression occurs. Of course I understand this does not always take place, but it doesn't mena I should not state my preference, either. Thank you for the welcome "HERE in this established community." Larry is right.

Bikerbabe, I am so sad after reading your story. I'll be thinking about it all day. Another great weapon is a knife that hangs handle down in a scabbard from a string or chain around your neck. With all this trauma, counseling with a good therapist can help a lot. There is nothing wrong with getting professional help when you need it. Many communities have free services to help rape victims or people who have suffered trauma. I'll be putting you in my prayers today.

Gotta agree with Larry on this one. I ain't buying the excuses either. I prefer when a digressioin takes place for new threads to be started rather than take established subjects off topic. Now I'll freely admit to getting off track at times, but that's just the way I see it. Soooooo, Dot, did you learn anything of value from PFAL or anything taght by VP that you hold to today?

I was in the Southern Branch of Northern Virginia approximately 1986-1990.

That is a reasonable possibility. It fits with the facts I am aware of. It also puts a great big torpeda in the side of JohnJ's boat where he claims "piracy." If someone gives you something, it is hardly a case of theft.

I am not up on the debate, but I am sure there are areas where we can improve our system. I believe we also need to acknowledge women who have come forward to bring this crime from the shadows and who have described what has happened to them, some of whom have gone so far as to allow their names to be published with their accounts of being sexually assaulted. Over the years their courage has been inspiring and of great help to other victims. Our society has made progress down a rough road, but there is much further to go. Catcup, I thank you for your work helping women. Indeed I say we all owe catcup a round of applause on this one. Pond, it is one thing to question sources, but also one need avoid a "shoot-the-messenger" approach which we see all too often used as a tactic to avoid the issue at hand. Do you have any specific objections to what catcup posted? How about some thoughts of your own to advance the discussion topic?

Nuthin' like a lil' "MOG mystique" to blatantly open ones self up for lawsuits. Any idea why TWI never sued Geer? JJ is a bit shy on the question...................

Catcup, nice post starting the thread. I'll have more to say later, but I think it is important to understand that there is not a stock response to rape, nor are there stock situations with stock answers. More women have been raped than many men understand because of the many caes that go unreported. Recovery varies from victim to victim. In some cases, a person with sexual abuse during their formative years will seem to put out a vibe that victimizers seem to pick up on. The testimony at trial is not as cut and dried as we might like it. Someimes victims have been so traumatized they don't get the story perfectly straight. Often the perpetrator is not an ogre-looking person, but the sort one would never guess would do such a thing. For the person accused, and looking at decades in prison, they deserve to mount a strong defense including facing their accuser and having the right of cross-examnation. This is often painful, but it is necessary in our system of justice.

Nice. Long ago I learned the first rule of leadership is FOLLOW ME! Let us follow the example of our Lord....

way-way-way-way-way-waywaywaywayway-wait a minute! I want in on that group hug.

Yes. There has been at least the implication that Geer did little more than change the name of PFAL and claim it was his. Plus, we had one chap keep asking for points of difference. Well, I have not taken Walking In God's Power, but I am aware of a few changes that I imagine would be reflected in the class. There has been more work on the usages of pneuma hagion and there have been developments in how some ocurrences are handled. Also, there has been much done on the subject of "Bible Kinds of Faith" - the occurrences and usage of the word pistis. I see these developments as not so much deciding some things in PFAL and other classes was wrong, but more in the sense of research bringing new light and thus moving the ball further downfield, if you will. I bet everyone who got the Bible Kinds of Faith tapes can recall with a chuckle the first time you heard and saw "the believing."

Johnj, I can not prove Wierwille told Geer to revise the foundational class and I don't think you can prove he did not. Given the enmity between Geer and TWI, it is reasonable to conclude that had Geer nothing to show he had this authorization, that TWI would take legal action. After all, as I pointed out, "piracy" is a serious crime. Of course you can not claim to know why TWI allows this class to be offered, but how about a reasonable informed guess? One that reflects the relationship between Geer and TWI as well as the laws regarding piracy. And where did you say that Christian believers and leaders carried on this sort of sustained attack on other believers in the Bible? Like, where do we read, "...and for years afterward Paul went out through all the land preaching against the errors of Barnabas, warning everyone about his false doctrine..."? And if VP didn't originate it, then aren't you trying to get Geer to ascribe authorship to the wrong person? Why would you want him to do that?

Garth, I have not seen everything that supposedly "proves" anything. What I have seen are allegations, for the most part. I happen to love my country and the ideals and principles she was founded upon. Among them are giving the accused a fair shake. That means the accused has the right to face and cross examine an accuser and evidence presented against him. That means the accused has the right to present exculpatory or explanatory evidence. That means the accused deserves to have their case heard by a fair and impartial jury. That means the accused has the right to a speedy and public trial. That means the accused has a right to appeal. That means the accused has a right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. There is more, but you get the picture. Over 667,000 Americans have given their lives so we can have this system and to abandon it is to spit on their graves. Dramatic accusations, even by many people, do not constitute "proof." People get caught up in the emotion of the charge and forget to allow the process we have in place to proceed. Not long ago members of the Dyuke University lacrosse team were facing rape charges and initially many were prepared to hang them. Another dramatic case where people got caught up in the emotion of the grossness of the charges was the McMartin preschool or kindergarten case where sexual abuse of small children was alleged against the staff. I have posted previously about the Lisk sisters case in Spotsylvania County, Va. Check out the Innocence Project sometime. They have gotten over 100 falsely accused people off of death row.

It would be nice to have references to the collaterals and/or session of the class. For example, as I recall, with #4, "throughly" and "thoroughly," he was not teaching on the words themselves,but on how people will mistake the two. With #9, while the Gospels were received after the Day of Pentacost, they do not contain the doctrine to the church of the body. The lesson is that many want to take us back to the period described in the Gospels, and therefore deny what Christ accomplished in his death, resurrection and ascension. It is important that we see how the spiritual landscape changed so drastically and not confuse that which is given for our learning for that which is given for our doctrine. We can learn from Genesis 2 and 3 without believing we are under the law regarding the tree... And I await Raf holding forth the Word of Truth he has worked so I may benefit from that teaching. Tearing someone down doesn't build me up.

Sorry. Double post.

Apology accepted. Let's go on as if it never took place. Send me a link by pm and I'll glady read your story and catcup's, which I am only vaguely aware of. Not just for you, but to a number of people here, there is a guy named David Stine who has a radio show late at night. He's with Sporting News radio, I believe, and he describes his show as a "celebration of life through sports." A lot of it isn't about sports at all. He pushes a positive philosophy that is worth looking at. Every call begins the same (though, of course the callers vary) STINE: "Dave in Chicago, tell me something good in your life." With every caller it is the same. No matter what they want to talk about, they have to tell something positive about their life, and they have to go into detail and not just say, "I got some great kids" or something. They have to paint a picture. Hearing story after story of positive things is nice because we tend to think of how we might answer the request to tell something good about our lives. When we focus on the positive, negative things have less predominance in our lives. When we focus on God's love for us and realize He has given us that love to share, and not be stingy about it and we do so, our lives dramatically improve. When we focus on God's forgiveness for us and realize He has given us that forgiveness to share, and not be stingy about it and we do so, our lives dramatically improve. We need to be joyous in our lives and to be a blessing to others. It can be very hard to forgive some people, but the more we do so we relieve ourselves of burdens that keep us from being the man or woman we really want to be.

Excuse me, sorry to risk sounding pedantic, but it should be Body AND Soul AND Spirit, because of the use of the figure of speech Polysyndeton. Being introduced to figures of speech was great, too. I spent a lot of time in Bulliger's F.O.S. book and am glad for it. Body And Soul And Spirit Formed And Made And Created Great lessons, they opened door to me........

I don't know what happened in your life. Since the first thing you said to me was "shut up" I may not listen so attentively, though. I hope you understand. I prefer hanging around with polite people, but that's just a strange quirk of my personality. I was speaking generally about some and did not name you, but if you wish to volunteer for the description I gave, go ahead.

That's nuthin. I wrote the score to Metal Machine Music

Hear hear! It's like when you mention Bill Clinton, all some people will talk about is the affair with Lewinsky and the other alleged liaisons. They will not acknowledge that he did many good things for our country. There are other threads to dwell on the negative. To continue to cut and paste the same tired spiel no matter what the thread title makes the poster look pathological.

The way I understood it, Wierwille did not ask Geer to edit the class, but to revise the thing from the ground up. May I remind you that "piracy" is a crime punishable under the law (not far from where I am right now, pirates were hung from gallows on the banks of the river nd their bodies were chained so they would not rot offa there. As a sailor, I must tell you that "piracy" is a pretty strong charge and if you are going to make it you need to explain why there has been no legal action. A reasonable explanation for the lack of prosecution would be that Geer was indeed authorized to redo the class. I was in Gartmore for 6 weeks in the fall of 1990. I want to echo what Mr. Hill has said regarding Geer and the staff there. I would add that there were some chaps who were a great blessing to me and I learned as much in the kitchen as I did in classes. I got so much out of washing dishes I got to volunteering every time. Then I realized that only a handful of us were getting this special sort of blessing, so I kept my hand down when volunteers were called for just so someone else could get in on the good times. There was a little Irish guy who corrected me once and I took it wrong and stewed a few days but then realized he was right and we had a private conversation and I saw the guy for what he was, a woderful man who loved God and His people. While there I took the first edition of the revised Intermediate class. There were some changes. Some were changes in emphasis, some things were simplified and in other cases research had gone forward from where the class had been previously. Although JohnJ wants to imply Geer isn't interested in teaching about Jesus Christ, the class ended with a wonderful teaching about our Lord and saviour that caught a number of us by surprise. In my Bible, when I read of the rise and expansion of the early church where the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed, I do not see believers and/or leaders engaging in long running diatribes regarding perceived error that continued for years. For example, Paul didn't keep on ranting about Barnabas, warning people to stay away from him, sending letter after letter detailing Barnabas' errors. It seems to me that if Mr. J is going to question so much about others, that it is only fair he withstand the same scrutiny. Oh, and I miss ringing the bell at the Black Bull....................................

Believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of a "butt stroke."

For some, remaining in a rut of negativity seems their raison d'etre. It would be refreshing if some of them would be honest about what they learned from PFAL and still hold today. Some can't, because that would mean breaking out of the pack, and conformity to the pack is more important than being truly honest. I posted that THE WORD! THE WORD! AND NOTHING BUT THE WORD! is still a guiding principle for me and I was met by out and out lies as a greeting to the board. I was told that this was my "chance" to be free of something that did not hold me and somehow the lying about me was supposed to help. I have decided that this must be a new thing in ministering, something that should be called THE LIES OF LOVE, complete with sincere looks as the person says, "We lie because we love. Really, you'll soon see it's for the best." Kinda makes you wonder if they were really hurt at all, or whether this is just a chance to reinforce a flimsy ego that believes that they can not feel whole just by themselves, but have to tear someone, anyone, else down in order to feel whole. A person who is naturally confident and comfortable with where they are in the world does not need to do that.

Yeah, that's where it's at, yesterday, today and tomorrow. And when there was a bump in the road with someone in the twig you loved, wasn't it all the sweeter when things were worked out? Let's not get away from fellowshipping with each other in God's love. As for me, I never was interested in the organization. I just wanted a better understanding of God's Word. I got that from a wonderful selfless twig coordinator who had a lot of love and a lot of patience with me. I recall a number of times he would walk in the room and give a look, like he'd noticed a picture was hanging crookedly on the wall. A couple of times he muttered, "I never get to teach what I want to." At those times that Word would ring like a bell for me. Though I was out of the loop in terms of the organization, and I understand what you said, catcup, if it weren't for TWI I would not have met this wonderful twig coordinator who did so much for me. Perhaps I would have gotten andwers somewhere else, I can't say. But whar I can say is TWI sent WOWs to my town and they made a difference in my life and I have not forgotten how grateful I am for that.

You have to share a songbook with me, that's what.