anotherDan

Shifra wrote:

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean?

He was telling Nicodemus to start from scratch. When a baby takes his first breath, there’s a flap that closes within the circulatory system, and causes the blood to flow in the opposite direction that it was flowing prior to birth. Talk about a “change of heart”!!! Erasing all the junk and beginning again in purity and without prejudices or bias - learning everything as though we knew nothing: this is being Born Again.

I just spent about 9 hours reading another thread, and I've neglected one that I've started! Thank you, all for your responses, and I hope you'll forgive me for the short visit. I'd like to respond to more of your answers, but just don't have it in me now, and my lawn is WAY overdue for a mowing! I really loved your answer, Shifra, to the Nicodemas question. Nic was a Pharisee, and if he was going to get his eyes opened, here was his opportunity. But it wasn't going to happen if he wasn't willing to start over. And what about his answer? "Can a man enter in to his mother's womb and be born again?" Maybe he wasn't as dumb as I used to think. Maybe he was responding rabbi-to-rabbi, and knew exactly what Jesus was requiring of him, and telling him in the same language that he could not!

(snip...)

I feel sorry for Doreen. She started this thread. She only has 7 posts. She probably thinks it's her fault that this thread has taken the direction it has taken. God if she only knew what carnage has already happened here.

This particular thread was intended to be mostly positive and upbeat and then it got derailed by the negative people. But there are other threads that were intended to be about negative stuff which got derailed by the positive people. The threads like that can get ugly but they can also cause release for the people involved. They start out being about the topic and then it's all about egos and credibility.

I CANNOT believe I've read this whole thread! I admit to skim-reading certain parts, particularly once I got to know the players. :) Still took me eight hours, with only a short break to make and (sort of) enjoy a tuna sandwich and a glass of milk.

Lots of points were scored by both teams, and there were quite a few flags were thrown, and penalties. Wish this hadn't descended into the usual slugfest, but I do understand that there are a variety of needs to address. I'm sympathetic to the presumption of innocence (ala disciderator) and I also tend to use a little salt when confronted with even "eyewitness" testimony. I spent many years in TWI and had my ups and downs, and am surely changed for the experience. Still sorting out what was the baby and what the bathwater.

In recent years, my wife and I have been connected with a small "splinter" that took some bold directions, some of which I don't necessarily agree with, but I've hung around because generally people are commited to forbearance and in actually helping one another. The course changed at one point from a pronounced casting-out-of-spirits (ala Derek Prince) to "inner healing," which has a lot to do with revisiting past trauma, and "allowing" God into the process, in order to gain His light on some of the events that were pivotal in our lives.

Also, some years ago, God granted Liz and I a year or two where we visited a number of different churches, from mega-churches with the full orchestras, to little Pentacostal Holiness Deliverance Tabernacles. We've also visited a number of Quaker meetings (ask me sometime!) and of course, the baby was there, and plenty of bathwater, if you know what I mean.

We have a wonderful couple not far from us who have been hosting a fellowship to explore the Gospels. Some years ago, Anth0ny Buzzard visited here, and got a number of us thinking of the kingdom of God, and in particular, the teachings and ministry of Jesus. This was one of the things that got us revisiting the Gospels. I've since become convinced that dispensationalism is bad theology. It separates us from the teachings of Jesus, allowing us to ignore them as "addressed" to others. As Anthony might say (or Jesus himself), "you call him lord. Wouldn't it make sense to listen to what he says?" (I anticipate the retorts... I was a retorter, once, myself... try to stay out of that now.) Anyway, the group just started with Matthew 1:1, and after several years, they're just beginning the Gospel of John. They just go through as many of the verses that week as they like, and pick up the next week with the next verse. "Our" ranks are being "thinned" (thickened) with newcomers who never heard of TWI. As for Liz and myself, the only fellowship we host is once a month, on the first Friday, when we host communion at our home. Usually 4 or 5 people come, and sometimes we have a meal together. (You are welcome.... email me for directions!)

As I revisit here, and am reminded of the hurt people have to deal with, it saddens me greatly. It also saddens me to see those whose faith has been destoyed. I don't come here with the foolish notion that we can just talk about the good ol' days, how ever each of us might define them. This is a site that grew out of a fallen ministry, and one that, IMO, fell for good reason. God does not take it lightly when men get "high and mighty." TWI has become a nothing, and less than nothing. Mrs. Wierwille.... don't even get me started. Dr. Wierwille died before his accusers could get their bearings, apparently, but ultimately, God judges us all. Like "deciderator" I have a good deal of respect for our justice system, but obviously, it fails, and we have OJ still golfing. But he's in a prison of a different sort, as is LCM, who was not so "fortunate" as to have died before his accusers got their bearings!

Only once, after many many years in the ministry, was I aware of any sexual shenannigans by leadership. While I was in residence, a fellowcorpsmember told me of an advance that was made on her at the campus by a visiting "dignitary." Shortly after that, LCM started resisting CG's vision of how things should go, and our Corps Coordinators (the Mausolfs) left, and then nearly EVERYBODY we counted honest started leaving, and we finally left also. (Not that I condone CG's thing... nothing could be further from the truth.)

Regardless of fallible men and ministries, we're all still on a journey, and it's a journey of salvation. Many of the people here are "working out" that salvation, as am I. Some appear to have given up. But even those who have given up are still in God's hands, and what Jesus did for them (as well as for us, who call him "Lord") still abides.

The class was full of stuff I'd never considered before. Overall, the idea of approaching it honestly, and letting it "speak for itself" is one of the abiding principles I live by... of not coming to it with the "answers." But much of the class was just hogwash. Hogwash released by a sincere man, but you know, sincerety is just no guarantee for truth! Some of the things others have said they loved from the class seem like pure hogwash to me now. I agree with the poster that (so long ago) opined that TWI was a good thing gone bad. Maybe absolute power does corrupt absolutely. I'm convinced that success in ministry is as much a test of one's character as failure. (True in general life, as well.) I admire Rev. Billy Graham's growth as he matured. He actually got better with age, despite his success! His sermon/sharing after 9/11 in the National Cathedral was magnificent.

Anyway, folks, thanks for the perspective. I do pray, and I believe that you will find the healing you seek, and I'm thankful for this site, this opportunity to go back-and-forth on some of these issues. It certainly can help.

Hi all, and thank you for participating in the discussion. Like Shifra, unfortunately, I am pressed for time and will be leaving shortly for beautiful NJ for a few days and may not get back to my computer until I get back. As I mentioned in the Paul-ist thread, I've become less inclined to feel that it is my job to tell others what to believe. God knows how foolish I can be, and how wrong when I seem so certain. That being said, I yearn to be whole in every way, and having a soundness of mind is part of that. I had a lively discussion with Anthony Buzz@rd once about this, over lunch, and he countered, "but what about the scriptures that say to admonish... what about heresy...?" (Not an actual quote.. I didn't record him!) And certainly, there is a need for that, at times. But certainly, at least at this time in my life, I do not feel called to do that. I truly believe that others may do it in perfect comformity with the will of God.

Of course, I had the option to put my answers right up top, and frankly, I thought I might get some flack for not doing so, but I didn't... just a polite "what are your thoughts...." (thank you!) It's already evident that there are diverse opinions, and honestly, I do not want to discourage that. I just want to generate some healthy discussion about a few salient issues. There is a phrase in Ephesians, that we might "comprehend, with all the saints..." and at some point I began to believe that among us, the truth will indeed prevail, and understanding come. Surely, the survey is not comprehensive, and it includes some "pet" personal issues. James and Paul, for example, I believe are in complete harmony, as far as their letters go. At the council in Acts 15, there was some genuine debate, but the NT writings agree, in my opinion. They at least can be seen as harmonious. The Sabbath is also a pet issue. I began to look further at it a couple of years ago, and found it strange that every OTHER of the Ten seems to be almost universally acknowledged by Christians as the will of God, and yet that one (which is actually a delightful "commandment" -- to REST!) seems to be marginalized. Of course, the discussion will have to be made as to whether we as Christians (or otherwise?) are "commanded" to rest. Some take the view that like the food laws, God knew what was best for man, and therefore we should both heed the dietary commandments as well as observe shabbat.

I'm here to learn and appreciate, and look forward to others chiming in.

BTW, I think homosexuality is a sin, that God loves homosexuals, and that Moses did not write Genesis! (it records his death!)

Welcome to Grease Spot, Another Dan – good post! You've got me thinking about the fall of man in relation to loving God and loving neighbor as myself. In the first sin by the human race – I see a blatant disregard of these love principles. Adam and Eve's doubt and disobedience of God struck a devastating blow to their loving relationship with God. And ignoring God's warning of the harm they would bring upon themselves ["You shall surely die"] they showed little regard for their own well being as well as that of their companion.

T-bone: Insightful. And with practical, present-day meaning. Do I doubt and disobey God? Is my relationship with my Creator hampered by my self-will? Do I show due regard for the consequences of my actions?

Here's a survey you can copy and paste into your reply with your own answers. Elaborate on your answers if you like. You can also come back and write a full explanation of your position for any particular item. (Heck, you can do whatever you like!)

T = true F = false U = unsure

Adam and Eve are historical figures, who lived 5000 - 7000 years ago. T/F/U

Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. T/F/U

The risen Jesus Christ is my Lord. T/F/U

The Book of Job is allegorical. That is, it attempts to explain human suffering using fictional characters. T/F/U

The disciple John, one of "the twelve", wrote 5 Books: John, 1John, 2John, 3John, and Revelation. T/F/U

Paul wrote Hebrews. T/F/U

Moses wrote Genesis. T/F/U

David wrote the 23rd Psalm. T/F/U

Paul's doctrine of "by faith alone" contradicts James' doctrine, as recorded in the Book of James. T/F/U

Four were crucified with Jesus. T/F/U

I speak in tongues in my private prayer life. T/F/U

God loves homosexuals. T/F/U

Homosexuality is not a sin. T/F/U

God does not hate. T/F/U

1 Cor. 12 says that all nine "manifestations" of the spirit are the privilege of everyone who has been "born again" by confessing Jesus as their lord, and believing God raised him from the dead. (When combined with Romans 10:9 and other scriptures.) T/F/U

The prayer of a believer can move God to do something He would not otherwise have done. T/F/U

Mormonism, Catholicism, and JW’s are perversions of Christianity. T/F/U

Some of Jesus’ teaching is impossible to carry out. T/F/U

"Sin consciousness" is not in the believer’s self-interest. T/F/U

The canon is closed. Another authentic letter of Paul will never surface. T/F/U

There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. T/F/U

Requiring narrative answers (short or long):

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean?

What are your thoughts on the Fourth commandment (not to work on the sabbath)?

Thanks, Abigail. I've heard of the Jewish practice of joining with God in the rebuilding of paradise. Can't think of the term for it now. I have a wonderful friend who is a Christian from a strong Jewish background. Her husband is still a Jew, and her son, but her daughter is Christian. I'd ask her, but she's in Cape Cod for two weeks. (And she will be enjoying the lobster! ) The term is not tzedakah, which is giving to the poor...

Considering 1John more deeply in recent years, it's become "easier" to love my neighbor. I sometimes simply stop myself and ask myself the question, "Am I giving or imparting life, or taking from the person?" Forbearance is a form of love. As parents, we do it all the time with our children. If I reveal someone's secrets or past sins to someone else, am I planting something in my listener's mind that they will have to deal with every time they see that person? A truly Christian community would be a broad family of life-givers, where the old folks impart life to the young ones, and vice versa. Then we really are God's children, according to the writer of 1John. If we hate one another, we are joined with the Devil and his work; if we love, we are God's children. And that's all the proof we really need, according to 1John.

And this says much the same thing: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

Thanks for the welcome and the comments. Shifra, if NT Wright doesn't "speak" to you, I can totally understand. Some of his writings are more accessible than others, and he's quite over my head much of the time! Yet he did help me to appreciate that Paul's writings may have been profoundly misunderstood, particularly from the Reformation onward. He's also great at dispelling the postmodern thinking that fuzzes everything up. (Truth is relative.)

I couldn't find the link you quoted from (the one Invisi-dan suggested); can you repost the link? The quote doesn't make sense to me, because I'm pretty sure that Josephus never mentioned Paul at all in his writings. The quote seems to imply he did.

Part of your theory is that Paul's writings were at cross-purposes with the teachings of Jesus. (Am I correct?) Perhaps part of the conversation could focus on that. My understanding of your position is that the Gospels are more to be trusted than what is purported to be the writings of Paul. I may be over-stating your case, I'm not sure. You wrote emphatically that you're Christian. In this part of your journey, do you feel the Gospels can be trusted?

Through a delightful coincidence, I got back in touch with Lonnell a few years back. Still a professor, and part of an apostolic/prophetic church. Wonderful soul! It's a good news day! No blues, no way to lose! Anyone who wants to can send me their contact info, and I will pass it on to Lonnell

I'm still in touch with Steve and Teresa. Abigail just got married. If you like, email me your contact info and I'll pass it on to them.

I think John's statement "God is love" could have the emphasis placed on any of the three words, but my own feeling is that it should be on "God." If that is true, when we love, we are joined with God. John offers an explicit definition of love in 1John: Jesus gave his life for us. "herein is love..."

This is contrasted to Cain, who took his brother's life. His conclusion is that we also ought to lay down our lives for the brothers and sisters.

There are many ways to give of your life, of your possessions, your time. Whenever you authentically do that, it seems to me, you are joined with God, a co-conspirator, as it were. Whoever loves is born of God and knows God. As someone wrote above... the subject is inexaustible.

All the law is summed up in this thread's title, and as Abi pointed out, God's sensitivities extend even to those of the bovine persuasion (and beyond). All is refected in the law, and I think it's useful to take a look at it, as Abigail is doing.

My first post. Just sought out an active, current, interesting thread... visited here many years ago. I like to read every post before responding, but I just can't this morning! No doubt some fine points were made after page 6. First of all... interesting folks and dynamic.

Shifra, your theory demonstrates a willingness to be free, which is a very good thing, and I applaud you for it. Your comments about the families you assisted in childbirth likewise demonstrate something similar to what God has shown me, as well: there is a lot more diversity to the family of God than the exclusivists declare so boldly. God granted me some amazing interactions with some young Muslim men a few years ago. I'm more sympathetic to Paul's writings than you, but I've had some help: the writings of N.T. Wright. He's Bishop of Durham (Anglican) and has quite a body of work, scholarly and pedestrian. Google him for some interesting discussions about the "new understanding" of Paul, if you like.

Since leaving the Way behind, I've been a voracious reader... almost like I wasn't allowed before! (Only partially true. We build prisons for ourselves, as well.) Favorite authors include F.F. Bruce and Bruce Metzger. William Barclay is also wonderful... universalist though he is... he "almost persuadeth me..." On the more critical side, you might try Heinz W. Cassirer, Grace & Law (subtitle St. Paul, Kant, and the Hebrew Prophets). Interesting guy. A "Jewish classist and philosopher who had not read a word of the Bible before age forty nine." Quote is from the jacket of his translation of the New Testament. Long story short, reading Paul's letters convinced this non-practicing Jew to convert. He had done a lot of translation before this from classical Greek (Aristotle, etc.) Spent his last 21 years studying the Bible. Translation (God's New Covenant) was published posthumously. Grace & Law, while convinced by Paul, offers a searing analysis of Paul's psyche. Not that I agree with this "renowned authority on Aristotle and Kant." Can't think of the author, but another interesting Paul book is Paul's Idea of Community. A great book, though more traditional than N.T. Wright, is F.F. Bruce's Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free.

My own mind is that Paul, like myself, experienced something of the living Christ, the resurrected Jesus, the living Lord. It was this experience (which, as we all know, is "no guarantee for truth"!! ha!) recounted in Acts and Paul's epistles that shaped the rest of his life, and (UNlike me!) Christianity as we know it. While I have some (OK, many) lingering questions, I can reconcile Paul with the Gospels, James, and the truth, as I currently understand it.

The salient part of the "new understanding" of Paul relates to "God's righteousness" and the "righteousness" of Jewish practitioners in Paul's day, and it is something I think you already firmly believe: God disapproves of stuck-up exclusivist "believers." The righteousness of God (literally, His faithfulness and love) is contrasted with "their own righteousness," which has to do with their separateness, their reliance on birthright, etc. Both Jesus and Paul hammered them. I'm sure a great number of verses come readily to mind.

Forgive me, but one more point, sort of on topic. Dispensationalism has, in my mind, been a very destructive force dividing the Church into Paulists and Jesus-ists. My pendulum did a lot of swinging when for me, THAT shoe fell! I became extremely repentant of how I'd let MY theology separate me from the commands and teachings of Jesus. This opened up a huge opportunity for me to re-study the Gospels, something I am still doing.

Enjoy the process, my dear. God not only has spoken, but is speaking!

Dan <-- exWay, exWOW (4x), exFamCorps14. Feel free to email me, anyone.