rascal

I guess I wondered all along if you were really interested Jean. You and John called me a sociopath and a liar with no proof....for speaking of and referring to these incidents........ Yet when people come forth with the proof you declared non existent....in counter to your claims that we were simply being hate filled with no actual proof....then it is....oh ho hum...it isn`t important enough for me to be interested. I don`t mind you defending your time in the ministry...but I don`t think it is honest for you to say that you are interested in the truth or the whole story though, if you are unable to read the accounts. Jean, I know you see me as adversarial...you feel like I am picking on you and john.....I doubt that you will believe that I have no malice in my heart in regards to you, that I am not trying to *get*you...but it is true. Can you see that it isn`t YOU personally that is under fire...but we are examining mind sets and mental habit patterns aquired while involved with these individuals? It probably isn`t even me personally that is an irritant to you...but the ideas and beliefs that I hold. I earnestly want it understood why I have so much antipathy regarding these people. I want it understand why they are unworthy of our trust, our respect, or our defense. Back to the topic at hand... I think when one looks at all the evidence of abuse presented by the people who endured it, by the testimony of the brothers, sisters and spouses that watched their loved ones suffer....that to continue to defend twi as *good*... is no different as former peoples temple, the davidians and the start gate folks still holding fast to their belief in the basic goodness of their group. To still believe that we are right...negates the need to become humble and change. I believe that our group in particular developed a lot of arrogance.

THAT isn`t what makes you offensive John.....stop kidding yourself..lol :) It is when you insist on calling people liars and sociopaths for being mad at their bad treatment from someone that we should have been able to safely trust that people get a little testy. Has jean had the guts to read sunisis or dot`s first hand accounts of experiences with vp yet?

attempts to put you under the law??? WHAT law??? You cannot seem to accept the experiences of your fellow posters...so you have to manufacture a lable, plaster it on them ...then it feels safe to be mean, to discount their veracity, to cast insult. You get to stay in your cozy little cocoon of denial. Really spiritual guy.

Jean, if you cannot bear to read what sunesis wrote...what about Dot? She isn`t exagerating how vile it was to be close to vpw...to lcm...no I didn`t know her then, but I know others who told similar stories and a couple of girls that told way worse. How many have to come forward before you will stop lableing everybody liars? If you don`t trust this sight....try messiah 7 there are a half dozen stories there that will curl your hair as well. Jean, I don`t think that it is really us that you dislike so intensly...I think it is our experiences...i think that you must make us liars or your world caves in.

Oh suck it up John, you and jean are more than comfortable calling names and accusing people of rediculous things. It is too damned easy to flounce outta here in rightious indignation nose up in the air, believing that you have been wronged. It takes real courage to read to honestly discuss, and to consider the topic at hand.

That IS wierd waysider. Another wierd piece of the puzzle in addition to the birth to the corpes paper...one of the requirements for entry into the corpes was a complete physical one of the required test being one that was specifically for std`s. Gotta protect those mogs I guess. (I wonder if this requirement came after Howard A nearly died of herpe`s simplex 3) Pretty stunning that this would be necessary for entry into a christian ministry.

uhhhh Jean my reading skills are fine...my questions were directed at you.....sooooooo you did not have the courage to read her first hand account? Wouldn`t that be very relevent to the topic at hand? You who have never met the top ministry leaders??? You have never been in the way corpes and exposed to the abuses? So far it seems like you don`t want to know the truth. You accused people here of not being able to present first hand testimony...now you are making up excuses why you don`t read it. I guess that it is a lot easier to live with ones fantasies of what they wish was right .... than it is to come to grips with the reality of the situation have to re evaluate ones entire understanding. I think that just answered the question posed in this thread.

Ahhh but DAVID was never born again WAS he? So Jean...you are comparing vpw with a man of the flesh? David din`t have spirit to guide him....now THAT I can buy. VPW`s actions certainly would indicate that he was *of the flesh with no inheritance in the kingdom of God* That is what galatians says about him anyway.

sigh...yet another *expert* that never met the man personally nor suffered directly at his hands. People suffered...people died...you`re damned right...it IS a big whoopdie doo. I wonder if the people who don`t think the rampant adultery, the alcoholism, the drugging and rapes, tell themselves, anmd try to convince others...that it simply *isn`t a big deal* because they don`t want to curb their own fleshly natures....that they want to believe that they are ok too.

I thought so...you didn`t know or spend any time with lcm or vpw...or any amount of time at hq....and yet you presume to know more than the people who DID interact with them on a daily basis...who DID experience the double standards taught...who were required to submit sexually or be thrown out of God`s ministry. Did you have the courage to read sunesis` account? She is not the only reputable poster here who saw and experienced the same thing. Face it...All you EVER saw was the shined up polished *public* side that they wanted you to see. Hell, I knew people from the early corpes as well....(I even knew a bot member fairly well)....*I* was told on the wow field by the lc`s (they were in the 1st and 2nd corpes) that sex was no big deal. (they too had been required to abort a child while in the program) I was told that it ONLY became a big deal if it prevented you from honoring your commitment to God. ...ie got pregnant and tried to leave. I have found out since leaving that the same lc used to chase my wow sister around his desk trying to get into her pants every time we were called down there for a meeting. It was ALSO my experience that people dismissed for sexual indescretions (I knew someone as well) were asked to leave not because the sex was bad..(all things being lawfull etc) ...but because they had been caught and it was public...causing people to stumble. Up untill this point as a wow and app corpes.....I had believed as you.....the entire 6 years prior of my ministry involvement that sex was not permissable unless you were married. I would have been shoulder to shoulder with you arguing with people in denial of what happened untill some of the bad things happened to me. Untill I met people who were finally allowed to tell what had happened and why they mysteriously disappeared. Jean, your answer didn`t make any sense about in the beginning. How does that line up with what Jesus taught and what is in galatians 5? It seems like you have to dismiss an awfull lot of scripture to maintain your pov. Yeah sure, I agree with you that there were lots of great folks in twi ... we were some of them. Unfortunately, that is why the leaders were able to keep their natures hidden.

It was a requirement for the corpes.

?? and if he wasn`t our brother??? and if IF he was....he DID sin against us.... that is re writing the word of God HOW????? *We all wrestle not against flesh and blood*, sure but vpw didn`t put up ANY kind of fight at all....he simply searched the scriptures for verses to twist into permission for him to embrace and indulge in his fleshly nature. You aren`t making any sense.

Oh CRAP...I didn`t know that....woah Sorry, I guess I haven`t folloed this close enough. So did the senders know what the destination of the wheat was going to be? Did they know that it was bound for pet food production? Maybe it WAS intended for humans.

Dave, I believe that sprawled out was trying to make the point that elmo wanted information, but was aggressive and rude in his request for help from us.

Well...my dogs and cats haven`t been eating this food...however, don`t forget that hundreds died eating the diamond brand dog food a year and a half ago. Mine DID eat that exclusively. It seems to me it was the same deal...a fungus in the wheat. I don`t know if more pets are dying, or we are just now becoming more aware because of internet access and communication with in the veterenary community. I don`t know why the wheat fungus affects the dog food and not people food. I cannot fathom terrorists focusing on pets. I do not think that they understand what they mean to us.

Elmo, bless your heart...you have DEFINATELY jumped into it right up to your neck. Tell you what friend, maybe ask about Ramona in friend finders forum. I understand how difficult it would be to learn that someone who once treated us with kindness could be so cruel to others. There were some pretty awful things laid at this womans feet. I would ask that you take the time to become fully apprised of the facts in these situation, before getting angry and judging the posters here harshly for being offended at how she treated her brothers and sisters in Christ. I hope that you will come back and get to know us better.

How would that line up with Jesus` teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit? With him it seemed that spiritual wholesomness was either one or the other. That seems to be substantiated in galatians chpt 5.

Eyes, that is part of what is so good about greasespot. We get to talk, to compare notes. We get to view other pieces of the puzzle in order to get an better over all picture of what happened in twi.

Excellent Listener, I think that it is important to understand exactly who these guys were in order to recognise thought patterns and beliefs that are detrimental to ourselves and others. Some of the things we learned are trult limiting to ourselves. Prayers for who was used despitefully, for those who wander confused and hurt is am putstanding idea.

Jean, can you put aside your irritation with me for just a miniute and read sunesis last post? It is really important. Can you read the posts from the people who actually met and knew this man? I would be willing to bet that you had very little actual dealings with top twi leadership on a personal basis or this wouldn`t come as such a shock nor would be defending them so staunchly. Can you contemplate the significance of the lifestyle of these men? The implications to be drawn from these people who embraced evil as a life style? They are completely unworthy of your defense or respect. They hurt our brothers and sisters in the name of God.

Thank you sunesis. Thank you for sharing this first hand information ...Thank you for putting it out there for everyone to see. People need to KNOW what this man is like so that the absolute necessity of re evaluating what he taught us is understood. Your accounts lend support and added details to my friends accounts. I have to agree, I seriously doubt that vpw was a genuine christian. You just plain don`t DO those things to your brothers and sisters.

oops...double post

Well said Listener...(I think that you were right btw about more than re quote of my sig) I think that it is healthy to be able to consider and re evaluate what we believe is *truth* in light of what we are learning. I don`t think it makes us less spiritual or any less of a Christian. To do otherwise I believe we limit ourselves.

Eyes, I talked with somebody who knew vpw back then. I have read others who were told the same thing....It has been said that it was indeed in papers...that he got caught with his secretary....shrug This I have never seen. I do remember vpw talking at the advanced class.....how he had moved out into a motel room to get some peace and quiet and study....but that the gossip and tongues in town were wagging about divorce and stuff. I have to wonder in hind sight if he wasn`t telling that story in case any of this resurfaced. I have no proof, only that the story has been told from several different sources. One fellow that came into chat for a while... said that his mother went to school with vpw. She told some really interesting stories of him back in the day.

*Mistress of darkness* was a just a joke from a few years ago. Most people know me well enough to know that I am a harmless, pudgy, little middle aged woman. At the time, it was intended as humor through the greatest of absurdity. Occasionally somebody will still take it seriously. Dooj, you made a great point about God`s goodness to the people not being mutually exclusive to the conduct of theos in charge.