Brushstroke

So are you going to fellowship again?

I might, actually. I may disagree, but I want to explore as much as possible.

I mean, I just went to a meeting last night for Neopagans and Wiccans whom my friend Denise is involved with. She asked that I take her to their fellowship meeting which they call "moot." They were pretty cool, and they were actually serious about it, unlike a lot of the people who claim such beliefs simply to make a statement. :)

This makes me wonder something.

People my age, in our generation today seem to have a peculiar outlook or attitude toward life and suffering. I stand as an example. Most people who are born in broken homes these days later come to existential angst which leads to nihilism, and they gain a disdain for religion as a whole. This also accounts for the rising statistics for teen suicide. I wonder, if there were a group similar to TWI that sprung up today, how many like myself, being 17, 18, 19, 20-ish, would join it.

Thoughts?

Anyone have any thoughts regarding my post here? I'm really quite curious what you guys think about this.

There are no beliefs to attack. There are no beliefs.

TWI doesn't have any beliefs?

:blink:

As I have seen it, this site would not be here provided the abuse in TWI didn't happen. The very existence of this site is evidence of TWI's wrongdoing. Is it "anti-TWI"? I don't think so. I've seen no posts attacking the beliefs of TWI in particular for what they are and not the effects that they may or may not have. I've only seen posts directed at exposing the abuse, which is very reasonable.

This site is "anti-abuse" not "anti-TWI."

Well now that you put it like that... <_<

What? It's true. I didn't mean any offense in my statement. I was just saying they deny the belief that Christ is eternally God and that the Persons of the Trinity are equal in every way. :blink:

This makes me wonder something.

People my age, in our generation today seem to have a peculiar outlook or attitude toward life and suffering. I stand as an example. Most people who are born in broken homes these days later come to existential angst which leads to nihilism, and they gain a disdain for religion as a whole. This also accounts for the rising statistics for teen suicide. I wonder, if there were a group similar to TWI that sprung up today, how many like myself, being 17, 18, 19, 20-ish, would join it.

Thoughts?

I certainly understand the difference between Arianism and Dynamic Monarchianism. Paul of Samosata and Theodotus of Byzantium taught that Jesus was a mere man who did not have a pre-existence and "became" the Son of God later in life through being endowed with grace (what TWI/STFI/CES would call "holy spirit") from the Father later in His life. This is Adoptionism, which is closest to what TWI/STFI/CES believes and is often called Dynamic Monarchianism. Arianism, from the name of the bishop Arius of Alexandria, is indeed closer to what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, where Jesus is not cosubstantial or equal with God the Father, but is the first-created creature and is considered to have been used by the Father to create everything else. I think the reason they're lumped together is because they both deny Christ's eternal deity and the belief in the co-eternal, co-substantial, co-equal Trinity.

I don't think that approach will phase them, Brush.

At least not if they still resemble the TWI that I remember.

First, because Church history holds no particular place of importance in "TWI thinking" other than to delude themselves into thinking they are reliving history by living like the people in The Book Of Acts.

In reality, they are living an antithesis.

Secondly, a large part of TWI doctrine is to discount and disregard what they call "worldly wisdom".

This was actually a big deal in the original PFAL class.

They consider philosophy to be a "counterfeit", meant to lure people away from the genuine.

Believe me, before I got into TWI, I was very interested in many of the same writers as you, as we have discussed before.

They were very skilled at showing me exactly where Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, Camus, etc. were leading me away from "The Truth".

Here's a little blip from PFAL:

"Spiritual weakness and inability can be due only to improper spiritual food or neglect of the Word of God."

(ie: You are spiritually weak because you read Nietzsche.)

"Natural man or the flesh or the senses cannot receive or know God."

(Now, Brushy, surely you want to receive and know God, don't you?) <_<

We're talking about STFI here, not TWI. STFI, to me, seems to have done a bit more research than TWI, and it apparently doesn't have much positive regard for Wierwille.

Spoiler alert: They side with Arius and vilify the church fathers.

I would like to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

Do they even know who Arius is?

So do you have a gameplan? Questions ready to go? Remember, if you get stuck, you can use one of three lifelines. . .

If they're like twi, nearly any subject can be turned into a "discussion" on the trinity . . .

Ask them how they know that god even exists. It probably has something to do with how they know there is no trinity.

I'm considering asking if they're familiar with any of the early church fathers and theologians, and in particular I'm probably going to focus on the Apostolic Fathers such as St. Polycarp of Smyrna and St. Ignatius of Antioch (who were both taught by the Apostle John), St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Clement of Rome, St. Barnabas (the same Barnabas that traveled with the Apostle Paul in Acts) and his general epistle, and the Didache, otherwise known as the "Teachings of the Apostles." It's a first-century catechism written for Gentile converts, and is said to have been written by the twelve apostles. I might also ask them if they've done any serious and unbiased studying of the history of the Christian Church before Nicaea and after it, such as the subsequent church councils and if they've researched any Church writings from that time period.

My point is this: If STFI/CES accepts the Bible as the Word of God, why then, does it not also accept the ones who wrote, copied, compiled and canonized the Bible as we know it today, as well as their theology? It's like taking the battery out of a car and trying to use it to generate power for your house. It actually can be used for that purpose (weird, I know), but it's not recommended and isn't what the battery was meant for.

And the existence of God? Hah...for fun I might throw out some Nietzsche to make them think a bit.

Brush - you here in Indy? The names sounded familiar.

What "Matt" was talking about concerning Jesus is the concept of Jesus, in his exalted state, having a "functional equality" with God. It is very similar to the "economic trinity" of some trinitarian believers.

Doctrine matters - a lot. The reason why they aren't attending a local church is that doctrine matters. It matters more than the 2 greatest commandments when it comes right down to it.

To the rest of you - the dinner thing is not all that uncommon. These guys work, socialize, eat, and live with each other.

Nah, I'm in Arkansas. And yeah, I know what he was talking about. He seemed to make a distinction between what is commonly thought as unitarianism and called their unitarianism, biblical unitarianism. I guess he meant to imply that their unitarian beliefs can somehow be supported by Scripture. I would agree. I say this, because with the general ambiguity (though certainly leaning towards the concept of His deity) of the New Testament concerning Christ's deity compared to other Christian writings of the same time period, a case can be made either way: for Jesus being God, or for Him not being God, for the Trinity, or not for the Trinity.

And yeah, doctrine matters to me too. It's why I said I found some things that I thought were not quite right. Indeed, heretical.

There's that magnet of yours turned on again... "Maybe/Maybe not.." Yikes... Sounds like you're looking for the other magnet searchers to just turn the right neon lights on and you'd be coming.

Personally, I'd stay away from any group that doesn't allow you to hold your "OWN" thoughts that are different than theirs AND allow you to voice those said objections at any point in time, including during the 'teaching/lesson"..

Else.. Just another darn cult if I ever saw one...

Well, I was going to say something during the teaching but I wasn't sure if I should, so I didn't. I mentioned this to Chris (someone else at fellowship) and he said I could have said whatever I wanted to say. Matt also said that they've had people come to fellowship and teach on the Trinity or teach that Jesus is God before, and they don't have a problem with people believing that. They simply choose unitarianism because it is what they see in the Scriptures. However, I'm going to assume that he and Chris said and implied this just to say, "Hey, we'll accept you even if your beliefs are misguided. And with time you'll come to know what we think is the truth too!"

I often wonder what the first century would have been like had the synagogues been as closed off like most churches and cults today. It's a complete rarity today, and I do mean, extremely rare, where you could walk into a church or a "bible study/fellowship" and share your thoughts that contradict their doctrine.. Yeah, just doesn't quite exist much these days.. And then.. I think back to what the scriptures say Paul did back in Acts..

"On the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, say it. So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: “Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen...."

or

"Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed."

or

"They came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.”

Interesting, how even after the first time of letting this guy come in and share "something different" then the Jews believed, was still allowed to come and speak again!

What ever happened to this openness, this honesty? Personally, I think most Christian churches and cults are scared someone might actually persuade someone concerning truth! God forbid, someone else might be more right!!

Ahhh well, that's why I say, unless they allow you openly share different thoughts, I'd count them as scared little cult sheep huddling around their cult leaders.

But you know.. I could be wrong! So I welcome any "differing" thoughts! Maybe I'll actually learn something other than one denomination/cult's agenda.

Oh yes, I welcome differing thoughts as well. You can still accept something without believing it to be true. You can accept that some particular belief has value and meaning without subscribing to it yourself.

Brushie, TWI as you know teaches there is only one God, our Father; and Jesus is a human being, a man, just like you except that he was divinely conceived. He was not God, he was not around before he was born, he isn't God now. We ex-Wayfers all believed that at one time and some of us still do. Some of us have espoused trinitarian teaching; and some state they don't believe any of it. This shouldnl't be a surprise to you.

TWI never had "lessons" - just "teachings."

Whate else happened that made you thing that something's not right? Can you verbalize it (or more precisely, write it)?

You may meet some very nice people. They probably have a great heart for God. Stay at low levels and you will probably enjoy it. If there is any pressure to "take the class," whatever class they are offering - run.

It's not a surprise for me. Just recounting what happened, is all.

Mainly what made me feel that something wasn't right was the love bombing. I was showered with so much attention to the point of creepiness, and I was asked with such enthusiasm, "So, do you think you'll come again?" and "Did you enjoy the teaching?" over and over and over again ad nauseum.

Wierwille said that in order to really believe in the Trinity someone had to be possessed.

How very strange...

Did he ever give support of his reasoning, or was it just a pointless ad hominem?

Dear Brushstroke,

I'm wondering how they'd respond to you asking them if they feel that is true. You could say,"Am I possessed because I believe in the Trinity like Wierwille said?" But you seem to more than capable of deciding how you want to handle it to me.

I might continue going every so often, and offer my opinions where I see fit and ask some penetrating questions. In so doing, I expect I'll become the black sheep, but if I help them to see another perspective, then a black sheep I shall be.

what's "the lesson"? Is that what they say at churches?

twi never said "the lesson"

to my knowledge

They didn't use the word "lesson," they used the word "teaching." I just said lesson as I thought it conveyed the same meaning and that you would get what I meant anyway.

There was dinner?

Yup.

My main concern is that you appear to be a bit of a magnet.

Yeah, I know... It's kind of funny in a way.

But I just got back from the fellowship. It was...interesting.

I definitely noticed the love-bombing, and before everyone got there and everything started going on, I was talking with Chris, Brittany's brother, and we were discussing our backgrounds. I mentioned that I'm an Orthodox Christian, and he said he wasn't quite familiar with it and I didn't really go too much into what I believe and how it may differ, but he seemed to generalize and say that "we're all part of the one body of Christ and I think that doctrine matters, but we think each group has a bit of the truth and learns from each other..." etc. I didn't comment. A few songs were sung, mainly contemporary Christian music that you might hear on the radio, and the teaching was...vague. I gathered that it was about not trying too hard to follow God and realizing that Christ summed up everything in two commandments, "Love God, and love your neighbor." I certainly agree with that, but in part of the teaching they referred to Colossians 1:15 and said that, "He's not God, He's the image of God. But if God came to earth...it'd be Him...God would look like Jesus." I suddenly thought, "Well, that's a dodgy interpretation." I also heard a brief mention of some youth meeting where John Schoenheit taught, and of "abundant sharing."

During dinner, before the lesson, I was talking with another person there, Matthew. He was saying how when he found this fellowship, he was home. He had finished his search and had found where he wanted to be, and I heard very similar words from others there. Later on, after the fellowship was over, Matt and I were talking outside about a few things, and I found it pleasing to talk to him, as he was very willing to discuss common objections to STFI/CES. The main objection, he said, is their unitarianism. I mentioned that, as a staunch trinitarian, this was indeed an objection of mine, and we discussed our agreements -- the primary of which is the overarching importance of the Resurrection. He also wished to gain my perspective on various things, and he's certainly open to exploring my faith in return for me taking time to glimpse theirs.

Overall, although I definitely noticed a few things that made me think, "Something's not quite right...," I had a nice time and it gave me an interesting glimpse into the way things are done in TWI/STFI/CES. Would I go again? Maybe, maybe not.

...a Spirit & Truth Fellowship International meeting.

I was in my communications class today and Afsaneh, a good friend of mine, and I were talking about where we each go to church. She said her family and Brittany's family, another friend of ours who always sits right around near me and a row down in the giant classroom, always have a home fellowship on Tuesday and Thursday nights. She was really enthusiastic about it. I asked what it was and what she was affiliated with, and I immediately recognized the name from here. I said I'd attend tomorrow night, so I'll stick to my word, but I just wanted to know what you guys think. What should I expect? For those of you who were in STFI or a similar offshoot, what were your experiences there?

As an aspiring journalist, I'd be thrilled to help you write this article, mchud11. PM me and let me know if there's any way I can help.

I got back from church a couple hours ago and we had our annual parish meeting to discuss the various ministries that our church and the diocese as a whole is doing and plans to do for the following year, as well as the finances and expenses for 2008 and the financial plans for 2009 showing where money is expected to be going in our parish and what the diocese has been doing and what it plans to do with regards to various sorts of ministries (this second one for the diocese was not a financial statement), of which everyone was given a copy.

As I was driving back from church, this vaguely reminded me of TWI's emphasis on money. Steph mentioned recently about how her group at college normally does an "abundant sharing" tithe. So, my question is, did or does TWI ever allow its members, whether they be Corps or not, to see the financial records for the organization, so that members can get an idea of where their money is going?

And, I'd like to say hello to everyone again. :) I haven't really been sticking around very much, mainly because I've been so busy with work and school...I just haven't had time to come here. Besides, real life is more important. But, I'll probably start posting a bit more again.

Very nice Mark! Loved it!

But...TWI doesn't celebrate Christmas? :blink:

Dear Brushstroke,

All evening yesterday I was wondering how to approach you with some constructive criticism on this thread of yours.

When I go into a rant, and it may.....ahem.....have happened occasionally, I consider the effects of the rant on all involved. As you are a young man who has shown a very mature level of introspection, I would simply ask you, are you certain that as a Christian that you are comfortable with the motives behind your rant. I must point out again that as far as rants go it was well restrained IMO, but that doesn't speak to the motives either. And I don't know the situation well enough to judge any involved.

PEACE

JEFF

Jeff,

Motives behind the rant? I don't see any real "motive" behind a rant, other than to just get some anger out.

But if you're talking about the content of the rant, then rest assured, I'm looking at her best interest. I'm just concerned about the constant drinking and partying, and she even mentioned that she thought she should probably drink less than she has been. And when we talked about how our classes are going, she mentioned that things aren't going as well as she had hoped -- she's tired all the time, not getting stuff handed in, sleeping in class. It worries me, that's all. The notion of hypocrisy was an observation made in addendum.

She's a college student who smokes pot and likes to drink...in all honesty, I wouldn't make that much out of it...

...but that's just me.

Yeah, but over half the people I know (which is a lot of people), myself included, don't do it every other night. There's a pretty big difference.

Are you a Christian? Is that what bothers you about her actions or the hypocrisy?

What kind of language(above) is that for any Christian to use? Just wondering? What about your sense of morality? Just seems an odd observation for you to be making while using such a foul word.

If you don't claim Christianity as your faith fine. . . . direct her to AA or NA. Get her some help.

geisha779, yes, in fact I am a Christian. And yeah, using that specific expletive was a bit out of line, but I tend to do that sometimes when I'm frustrated or irritated about something. I'm not justifying it, and I probably shouldn't speak like that, but this is just an fyi.

So, some (if not most of the regulars) here know about my friend who is in TWI, who's going to school at the University of xxxxxxxxxxxxxx. We haven't talked in about a month and a half and just last night she called and we caught up.

I know xxx is a huge party school, so is the University of Arkansas, where I'll be going in a year, but even so, she drinks and smokes pot practically every f**king night! I worry about the gal, sure, but this made any possibility of a future relationship go out the window immediately. She knows about Sara (my current girlfriend) and she's fine with it, but I find that she still has feelings for me and I honestly want to tell her that I see absolutely, unequivocally, no possibility whatsoever of she and I being together in the future.

And oh, the religious implications! What she's been doing has made me wonder about TWI's sense of morality, if the stories here haven't made me wonder enough. In our same conversation says she loves God so much and that she's so into her faith. And she loves this campus ministry that TWI has at xxx, but I'm thinking to myself as we're talking, "Okay...no offense to you, but I have trouble believing that. Actions speak louder than words, so they say."

So, I don't know...just bothered me.

EDIT: I meant to put the title as "A Rant, if You Don't Mind" Could someone change that for me?

Edited by ModRocker. Please do not post negative information about others along with enough information that their families and friends can identify them.

I happened to stumble upon this site a couple of times as I was researching TWI.

Yeah, the Jesuits are an order of the Roman Catholic Church. I really can't see TWI taking on the Society of Jesus (their official name). The Catholic religious order is far too large and TWI would probably be in the spotlight of the media if they did try to sue on charges of a copyright violation, and media attention is probably something they don't want.

Why would they feel the need to bring firearms into a church service? :huh:

That is all.