Brushstroke

2 Corinthians 4:7

But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power (dunamis – “inherent power”) is from God and not from us.

this "power" has absolutly NotHING to do with you or what you think you may have learned or know.

your a sinner and you may have been saved from death by the very grace of God almighty.

big deal you have accomplished nothing in the sight of God other than to believe that Jesus christ was raised from that very death you deserve .

the powers you desire are the very same satan wanted in heaven and he lost then .

i have one God and one lord and they are not either one of you with your magic spells and wanna be mini jesus mind sets.

I agree, we're all sinners...just sinners trying to do the best we can, eh? As far as God's power goes, it's not for us.

Hi Phil,

I agree in part. Yes, Christ's commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. BTW, that was taught in twi in the first 30 minutes or so in the Power for Abundant Living class as "The First and Great Commandment".

What I think we may disagree on is in the importance of having knowledge of his will from the bible ... I don't know if you call that "special knowledge", ... but simply understand the importance of knowledge of God's will from the bible. Your statement "we shouldn't ever think we know his will" seems to run counter to that. I think this is one of the biggie's of The Way and therefore you may have strong disagreement with your girlfriend on this.

You're right oldies, that's definitely a strong point of contention between she and I. I'm starting to think that maybe the difference is in the mindset. In Eastern Christianity, there is a strong emphasis on mystery. To say that we know what God wills for our lives, to us Orthodox, is like saying that I know God like the palm of my hand, which obviously isn't true. It's just prideful and it is not a very good example of humility. This is not to say that we can do nothing about our salvation, but the mindset of the Church is that Christianity is a spiritual struggle, it is a path in which we are to take up our cross daily and commit our lives to Christ, and submit to Him in humility, with all of our joy coming from God alone. It is a process, a spritual journey. In Orthodox and Catholic theology, salvation is not something that we already have as many Protestants believe. We are saved (Eph. 2:5-8), yes, but we are also being saved and are working out our salvation with fear and trembling (2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and we will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10), with hopeful confidence in what is to come (2 Tim. 2:11-13, James 5:7-12). I think an accurate statement would be that, for us, salvation is itself the life that we have in Christ.

I don't think so. As I understand it, Lucifer already was powerful as one of God's arch-angels ... but that wasn't enough for him, what he wanted was to exalt his throne ABOVE God. Essentially wanted to be God.

That wasn't my point oldies. My point was about the pride in the idea that we can understand God and have His power. Yes, we can know God as He reveals Himself to all humans and He is a personal being, He loves us. We have knowledge of Him according to what He has revealed about Himself, but other than that, we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways, nor should we ever make a bold claim about having His power [1 Cor. 2:9, Rom. 11:33-36, James 4:6-10, Matt. 5:1-12 (my note: only if we have humility will we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit i.e. God's power)]. We should acknowledge that He is working in our life, but the kind of thinking that the power that He gives us is then ours is a very harmful way of thinking. It leads to pride.

~Phil

I don't entirely agree.

Part of the wierwillian theology suggests that we, as mortals, can take the fragments of truth we do have, and by a mathematical and scientificly precise method, put it in a pot.. add the right keys and ingredients, and come up with THE truth.

I think it puts too much of a burden on the seeker..

The salesman has to explain "apparent" bible contradictions.. look how he tortured the gospels to come up with the supposed correct numbers of the denials of peter.. and the two fig trees, the two men in Gadarenes.. etc., etc..

it looks so "scholarly".. so precise..

but I think this kind of theology takes ones eyes off the REAL issue. "Where are the results?"

I was given me the promise that if I 'believe', I can do the works of Jesus, raise the dead, heal the sick, cast out devils, miraculously multiply food, make wine out of water, etc., etc. Now it gets switched. I end up with a scholarly approach to life that seems only to lead down into an empty hole. More classes, more meetings.. more money. No documentable results. Same for anyone else I knew who tried it.

It's all about sales.. make a promise, a REAL REAL BIG, OUTRAGEOUS promise. Then don't sell the promise. Sell the person the alleged method to acquire the promise.

And it's almost never about what the salesman can do with it. It's about YOU- "how'd you like to raise the dead, heal people.. etc. etc..."

"OK sucker, when's the last time YOU raised the dead?"

:)

It's not that I don't believe there is a God.. I just don't think you can sell Him.

I agree, Ham. And I'd like to add something. Sure, you may understand all the things in the world about the Bible, Christianity, Christian history, and other religions. And you may be able to cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead, increase your wealth, speak in tongues, etc. But if you want to be a Christian and have all this, but don't have a genuine love and humility, what good does any of it do you? (1 Cor. 12:27-13:13)

Reminds me of an old story, very famous in Greece, that my priest mentioned in one of his homilies.

There were two men on an island, off the coast of Cyprus. They knew nothing about Christ except what they had been told by their parents long ago, which wasn't much at all, but they kept these things they had been taught and believed in Him, and they really believed in Him. They prayed everyday, thanking God for what little they had on this small island. Now, a bishop on a ship along with a ton of other passengers passed by this island, and he saw them, and the two men desperately wanted to get on this ship and off the island. To his shock and astonishment, the two men were actually running on the water toward the ship. Many believe it was a product of their faith, some kind of spiritual gift.

One doesn't need to have some sort of special knowledge or to understand complex theology, or to give their money to someone. Ultimately, all one needs to do is love God and love others. That was Christ's most important commandment.

Brushstroke,

I have to admit, one of the big lures to TWI for me was that they seemed to be able to explain that nagging discrepancy between an all-knowing/all-loving God and all the pain and suffering experienced in the world today. By explaining the need for free-will in salvation, they both 'excused' God's allowance of Satan's uprising and fall (and the resulting evil in the world today) and 'defended' their belief that Jesus Christ cannot be part of a trinity.

In order for a person's decision to love and serve God to be genuine, they cannot be forced into it; it must be a choice. Even the angels had a choice.

In order for Jesus' sacrifice to be a valid payment for all of our sins he also had to do it by free will choice, which he really couldn't have done if he was already destined to do it as part of a god-head... he had to be a man with all the potential for getting it wrong, in order to truly get it right.

So God is all-knowing and all-loving, but had to allow for the choice to be made. Satan chose badly. All suffering and evil in this world is a direct result of his choice and the fallout of that choice. So, anything bad that happens in the world can be blamed on Satan, either because people have willfully turned away from God's ways or done it through ignorance. Conversely, believing in God, with a thorough knowledge of God's Word, allows you to tap into God's protection and healing from all that Satan has done. You are in this world, but not of this world. You are God's kid and that comes with special rights and priveleges.

Sounds good doesn't it?

It sure sounded good to me!!

But do you see the hook?

With this belief system firmly in place, we can look at any situation that comes up in the world and know WHY. It's simple: someone is doing God's will and someone isn't doing God's will. But, how do we know who is who and which is which? How do we avoid falling into Satan's traps which he lays daily to subtlely ensnare the unwatchful? (Because the secret to his success is the secrecy of his moves, and he is very good at making the counterfeit mirror the genuine to trick people.) So how do we discern truth from error? How do we tap into that special protection and power God has willed to His children? By daily making the free-will choice of Good over Evil (no, it's even more subtle than that, we must make the choice of Best over Good!!) How do we know how to make that choice? We go to the Bible, of course... it is the complete manual on how to live a Christian life. But there are so many interpretations, how do we understand the real meaning of the Bible? By taking twi classes and attending twi fellowships, of course! And once we are doing that we are set, right? We have knowledge and we know how to talk to God, right? No, because one of Satan's "fronts" by which he tricks people is SELF... you think you are tapped into God but you can still easily be led astray. So check your thinking with leadership because there is safetly in a multitude of counselors!! After all, twi leaders study what the founder taught, and the founder dug into the Word cover to cover, looked at the Greek and Hebrew, and studied the texts and compared passages and studied other men's work to come up with the truth... We then, as followers, study the Word in order to come to the same conclusions our twi founder came to (that's why it's called RE-search). And if you don't come to the same conclusion, well... you just aren't spiritually mature enough to see it yet, or maybe you are really just a spiritual hitch-hiker, not a true believer at all, in fact maybe you should be booted out of the group to protect the rest of the followers from your negative, slothful, unbelieving influence...

Frankly, even outside of the messed up twi method of practice, the biggest pitfall of this belief system is that it takes the most complex, nuanced problems and breaks them down into a simple: "This person is right" and "That person is wrong" mentality. Not only does this set the table for across-the-board policies and blanket finger-pointing, which almost always causes more harm than good, but I have found that most problems in life are just not that simple... they are a mixed-up mess of some right, some wrong, and some "I don't know" which cannot be resolved by blanket statements of good and evil.

The bolded portion, is what I think is most damaging. The mindset that God's power is ours...pride in thinking that they had attained some sort of special knowledge or in thinking that they're so great like the Gnostics, or like the Pharisees.

And no, most problems in life are not so simple as "This person is right" and "That person is wrong." That kind of thinking is just naive.

~Phil

Hi Phil,

From the twi viewpoint ... in the words of Dr. Wierwille "find out what's available from God's Word..." The "law of believing" was taught in the context of believing to receive the written promises of God in the bible. For example, does the bible say is it available for someone to win lotto? No. So praying/believing to win lotto would be out of bounds and wouldn't work. On the other hand, John 10:10 says:

Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

This is the foundational scripture for Power for Abundant Living .... Jesus came so that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. We were taught in twi that life is the greek word "zoe" life in all of its manifestations including eternal life. That is a promise... so praying/believing to receive that life in all of its manifestions would be within God's will and availability, as long as one fulfills the specific condition required for receiving. Jesus said when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. "and what soever ye ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive". Praying for what? The written promises of God. Life in all of its manifestations, among other things.

One of Wierwille's lines from PFAL (I write this from memory) was "there are over 900 some promises in the Word for a person to profit and be in health.. how many do you know? The more one knows, the more one can believe to receive".

So then according to twi doctrine, having an abundant life is God's will; not dying a horrible and painful death. God is love, and wants the best for people, especially his kids. That is why in your previous example of Peter and Paul, I don't believe it was God's will they die a painful excrusiating death and so forth ... I believe they were fulfilling God's will for their lives by continuing in faith, but I believe the pain, hurt, anguish and death came from the thief, the devil. I don't believe those horrific deaths were in God's plan and further I believe God would work to help them out of those painful deaths.

"By his stripes we are healed" Jesus had to endure a painful death so we wouldn't have to.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

I agree with you that it is God's will that we shall live, and not die. Death was vanquished through the Cross, Christ rose, having conquered death and giving life to those spirits in prison who died before He came into the world (1 Peter 3:18-22). But the question remains...if Christ is risen, having trampled down death by His own death, and has given life to those who were held captive, why is there still suffering?

This gets into one of my least-favorite subjects: theodicy. I have much to say about it though. Surely a good God would not cause all this suffering that happens in the world. I mean, would God want 150,000 people around the world to die each day, or want those people in Africa to starve, or want the war in Darfur to continue? I don't think so. Christianity has traditionally defined evil and suffering and the horror of this mortal existence as a privation of the good, something entirely unnatural and foreign to God's good will for His creatures. He's the Source of life, not of death. So evil does not exist per se but it "exists" in that it is an absence of that which is good in the world.

What most people find intolerable about Christianity, is that God even allows evil to happen. It appears to imply that God's providence and the coming of His kingdom include all the evil in the world, so even though His good will will come to pass, the suffering of this world has an indispensible part to play. The notion that suffering will prove to have been meaningful, to have had a purpose, to have been in some sense a good and necessary thing; for most, the suffering of children in broken homes, of the people in Africa who are starving to death, of the people in Darfur who are at war is an infinite scandal, and their consciences could never allow it to sink to the level of some provisional passage through darkness on the way to some radiant future. I think this mindset is actually quite Christian. The mindset of the ancient Church was always one of division from and rebellion against those principalities and powers -- death chief among them -- that enslave and torment creation. All that Christian scripture asserts is that death and evil and suffering will not thrwart the coming of His kingdom. Divine providence, will of course, always bring about God's good ends despite -- and in some sense through -- the evil of this world. This isn't the same thing as saying that evil has a necessary part to play in God's plans or that God requires evil to bring about His kingdom.

The one thing most people ask in this question, is "Where is God?" My answer is that He is in and beyond all things, and nearer to the essence of each creature than that creature itself, and infinitely outside the grasp of all finite things. Even in the suffering of this world He is nearer to us than we will ever realize. In writing this, I find myself thinking about a photo I saw in an issue of National Geographic when my mom and I were taking our cat to the vet. The article was about an ancient tribe in Ethiopia, and they live in the most unimaginable poverty. In the background of the photo was a scattering of huts made from crates and shreds of canvas, and on all sides barren earth with no vegetation. But in the front of the photo was a little girl, extremely pretty, dressed in tatters, but with her arms outspread, a look of delight upon her face, dancing. To me that was a heartbreaking picture, of course, but it was also an image of something amazing and glorious: the sheer ecstasy of innocence, the happiness of a child who can dance amid despair and desolation because her joy came with her into the world and prompts her to dance as if she were in the midst of paradise. It's the small sparks of beauty that we see in all the horror of this world that show us God's presence here, the deep indwelling truth of creation, the divine image that resides in the very heart of the world, the stainless image of God. This is the nature of God's presence in creation, and He is in every fiber of His being willing and able to restore that which has fallen, and He will not suffer to see us fall into further corruption.

So no, God didn't will for Peter and Paul to die, but if you have experienced any kind of hardship, then it should be apparent that He works through the evil of this world (that is caused by the devil and is also just an aspect of a fallen world) and despite whatever bad happens, His good will won't fail in the end. As you said, "by His stripes we are healed." Jesus' death on the Cross shows us the love of God. Not only that the Father loves us enough to send His Son down, but that God Himself, i.e. Jesus Christ, suffered our suffering and took it upon Himself to save us! This is a point where Wierwille went very wrong. The Incarnation of Christ is absolutely essential to Christianity. In the words of C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity, "either Christ was a liar and He wasn't really God, or He was a lunatic on the level of the man who calls himself a poached egg." He died not to take our place, not necessarily so that we don't have to die; but His death opens a door, it gives us someone who understands our sufferings and someone who we can lean on, as He will give us rest for our souls and will in the end destroy all evil, all death, and all suffering.

The idea "we shouldn't ever think we know His will" is the opposite of what you'll experience in twi. We ex-twi were taught that "the word of God is the will of God", so the Word would be the Lord's mind revealed. The word came "as holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. So the Word of God is the will of God and we can know it and believe it. This foundational belief is what you will encounter when dealing with your girlfriend and her parents.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain]unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

God has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him ... that knowledge is in the word of God. Doesn't mean we don't receive knowledge and guidance from the holy spirit, but what is already written God expects us to know and believe.

I don't have much to say about this now, except that it sounds very Gnostic...the idea that we are able receive some sort of special knowledge...

Hmm...I'll have more to say on this later.

~Phil

Brushstroke......as you uncover twi beliefs, it should be noted that:

1) Some twi followers believe that wierwille's pfal class was given by divine revelation.

2) Some twi followers believe that wierwille's books give greater depth to the pfal class.

3) Some twi followers see wierwille's two sides (stage persona and carnal man) and still stand with twi.

4) Some twi followers rarely do any in-depth biblical research......but follow twi's chain of command.

5) Some twi followers follow the mantra.......even after errors and inconsistencies and plagiarism are noted.

6) Some twi splinter groups uphold SOME of wierwille's class......and DISMISS other parts.

Welcome to the TWI-light zone...........

Inconsistency after inconsistency after inconsistency...oy vey...

This makes me wonder where I'm going to go with my ideas and what I want to say when the subject of our beliefs comes up when I'm there. It will, it's inevitable. Is there anything I should expect them (her parents and possibly her) to ask or say?

Exactly the point , that would be silly wouldn't it ? but some might argue that it was not a law because it had no statute. you understood that was silly.

Then again some might argue that it was not a law because it was not qualified and quantified in a laboratory. and that would be equally silly Now wouldn't it?

Then again some might say

Okay...then what does Wierwille mean by calling it a "law," if it means neither a scientific nor legal law?

Both seem clearly as you noted ,not what he was talking about. I never met anyone that thought it should be qualified and quantified in a laboratory either by the way.................

Not defective , it works in the way it was intended, analogies break down at some point, they are not perfect in all or every point.

Says Who? Not my recollection.....

In what way was the Law of Believing intended to work?

No,They(wayers) want you to take The way of abundance and power.The new "improved"

pfal.

Is it not, in principle, essentially the same class?

One person took pfal......one has NOT.

Can you tell the difference??

:)

So going by what you just said...PFAL tells you to entirely miss the Bible's message and keep your head in the air concerned with semantics of language and with how an impersonal law can affect your immediate life and material prosperity? Can you say legalism? I find that ironic, since TWI followers are apparently encouraged that they are entirely forgiven and have no need to repent, therefore they are able to lead a very antinomian lifestyle.

Well then...I'm glad I didn't take PFAL. :)

I like this guy.

Brushstroke, can you hang around with the old folks even after your adventure's played itself out?

Hah, I don't mind. :)

Brusbhstroke --- check out my thread ---

Critique ---- or Criticize

The minister there (seemed) to be interested in adding new members.

He was also willing to talk (to me -- an ex-cult membter).

I'm always willing to talk to folks, but I have no agenda to *sell* to them.

FYI --- twi folks DO have an *agenda* to sell. They will be less hospitable than I. :)

Give them a listen -- but keep both ears WIDE open, eh?? ;)

(edddiTED for my terroushous speeling! --- sowwy!)

Oh of course I'll listen to them. :)

But will they listen to me? :(

We watched parts of this documentary in my Sociology class a couple weeks ago. I've seen the whole thing before, and it's pretty strange stuff. I definitely think this is an example of brainwashing. What better age to teach a child than age 4 or 5, when the mind is still malleable and absorbs things like a sponge? When it's things like this that are being taught...ohhhh boy...it's things like this that make me wonder what the face of modern Christianity is going to look like in about 50 years. *shudders*

Evangelical Christianity scares the hell out of me. :blink:

Remember, Just because they are sincere it is no gaurentee for truth.

Hey,Brush,Get your feet good and wet,Then you will know,We here are all jaundiced,We

KNOW the outcome.You will either walk away,or become a waybrained twi follower

to THEWOMAN OF GAWD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the subject of our beliefs comes up and they ask if I'd like to join or there's some sort of subtle pressure, I'll tell them that -- that sincerity is no guarantee for truth. I have no problem telling them how I feel. I'll just say "Thanks, but no thanks." She and I really like each other...a lot haha...but I'm not going to sacrifice what I have discovered as truth for something that might not last.

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your response. I just got back and am busy today and I do not post on weekends, so I'll do my best to respond to your post piecemeal and see if we can agree on some points:

Essentially yes but with some important qualifiers from Power for Abundant Living (PFAL), the foundational class taught by Dr. Wierwille. Wierwille's first qualifier is "what is available". According to the class, one can't receive something that's not available. Hence the first step becomes to find out what's available. If something isn't available, you can "pray till your blue in the face" and you won't receive because its not available. Another important stipulation is having "needs and wants parallel". In other words , one must need it and want it.

In the example you gave about Peter and Paul, which was why I asked if deliverance was available... we really don't know why they died in this way, but let's say it was in God's plan for them to die that way, and they believed that... Then they believed and received. That would be a case for "the law of believing" at work. Its not a case of "they had no faith" or "negative believing" as in they had doubt or worry that God wouldn't help them which I doubt. It all depends on what they knew and how they applied it in their life in that instance. So many variables are possible which is why even bringing up Peter and Paul in this case is unfair because we don't know what they knew at that time in their life.

It sounds like this is just an attempt by Wierwille to account for probability and chance in life, which really can't be determined or controlled, or even speculated upon.

What is Available -- How does one determine what is available in their life, or what one needs and wants?

Not quite. The scriptures say it will work out if you both believe. That is a promise from the scriptures and was one of the scriptures that Wierwille used to teach this principle:

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

That is the promise. But who knows if when all the smoke clears you two will agree? That is the question.

The promise to us is this: That God will save our life, if we lose our life (Matt. 16:24-28). God is very willing to save us, He wants us to be with Him. The truth of Christ's message isn't about getting what you want/need in the here-and-now (see Matt. 19:23, Luke 12:13-34), it is about striving to be with God, storing up our treasure in heaven by our faith in God alone and doing His commandments, having faith that He will provide what He wishes us to have, not what we think we need or want, and humbly submitting ourselves to Him and giving up everything for the one thing that matters in life over all other things: His will. It's not to say that He doesn't wish us to be happy, He does, but we shouldn't ever think we know His will or that we know what we need or want in our life. St. Isaiah the Prophet rightly asked "Who knows the Lord's mind...?" (Isaiah 40:13)

If it is His will for this to work, then so be it. I believe that things between she and I will work and so does she, but just because we believe it will work doesn't mean God doesn't have something else planned.

I agree , it doesn't apply in every situation. There are some things we may think it applies to when it doesn't. Some things we think it doesn't apply to does. I think the honest way to approach it is each situation would determine whether or not it was applicable. BTW, I don't believe "the law of believing on the negative side" I don't believe Jesus taught that. I can't find it in scriptures. There was one verse, Job 3:25 which was essentially the entire case for the negative side, and I can't see that being applicable in every situation in a persons life. Sickness and diseases and accidents can be beyond one's control and thought processes. I believe this was an error of PFAL.

Exactly, we don't know when this law will work and when it won't. Why bother mingling with this Law of Believing when you can just pray the Lord's Prayer, ask that His will be done, and leave it to Him to reveal to us what He wants while following Him in humility? St. Silouan of Athos once said, "When by the Holy Spirit I came to know our Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, my soul submitted to God and now I accept every affliction that befalls me, and say to myself, 'The Lord looks down on me, what is there to fear?'"

It really depends on what was going through their heads at the time. I can't say one way or the other. But if they knew they were going to die as martyrs, then they died having faith/believing... ironically "the law of believing" would apply in that case, but again who knows? On the other hand I don't know that God didn't forwarn them both and they possibly missed the warning... could be possible too...?

They died having faith. Period. It doesn't matter if they knew they would die or not, they kept their faith even through death and that is what matters.

~Phil

I found out on this or the other thread that Brushstroke was originally Southern Baptist before he joined the Eastern Orthodox Church(he doesn't say if his parents were or are Baptist or if they are Orthodox). If that is the case, then he could easily get caughth up into Stephanie's mindset and her parents' with TWI. I had assumed that Phil had always been Orthodox since birth, which begs the question if his parents were originally Baptist, why did they join the Greek Orthodox Church? Just curious.

My parents never became Orthodox. I chose it on my own.

Yes, I was originally a member of the Southern Baptist Church, but my parents have not been/are not affiliated with any religion or denomination. I was delved heavily in Islam (through a friend...its a long story and I don't want to talk about it) for awhile before I became a Christian about 6 years ago. I was a member of the Southern Baptist Church, but my views have always been much closer to those of John Wesley and the Methodist movement, and some much closer to Catholicism. After awhile I started doing more study into church history and the writings of the early church fathers, and joined the Orthodox Church in May of 2006. So I know where I stand and I don't believe I'll be sucked into TWI. Converting to Orthodoxy isn't just something my parents did and I blindly followed with them.

Interesting.

Considering that "they" (the parents.. and most everyone else involved in the way) have been threatened (ahem, "warned") to stay off the internet.. i.e., no surfing, no playing around on the net.. if you really need something there, get on, then get off- AS SOON AS POSSIBLE- because that it's a possible conduit to possession- I'd have a few questions.

I'm not being accusatory.. consider it food for thought..

What is the young lady even DOING there?

Are the parents aware that she is seeking a connection with someone on the "infested with devils" internet?

If so, do they approve of this? Or not? If not, what would they say?

apparently she is eighteen years old, still living at home.. is it possible.. they are looking for someplace for her to go, ANYWHERE?

I'm just saying.. or rather asking.

:)

I've spoken with her mother, and her parents/my parents have talked about me coming over. Her mom's a nice woman, very unassuming, and she says that these things (online/long-distance relationships) are hard to make work and that she's here to support us in any way she can. Her mom and I actually talked very briefly about what we believe a few months back, and she was very courteous and respectful as we exchanged viewpoints. I got the impression that despite what I had studied and known about TWI at the time, and what I know now from here, that Steph's family is very devout in their faith and they don't really seem the type of people to try to subtly convince me to convert as you guys make it seem. Maybe they're a bit more...liberal...not in the political sense, but in the sense that they maybe show a bit more impartiality than most TWI followers of the past. But of course, I'll be careful.

So yes, they're quite aware that she's conversing with someone she met online, and they're quite aware of my personal beliefs and my beliefs about The Way. If they weren't aware of it, then I wouldn't be coming over.

Brushstroke/Phil, it is interesting that the title of the "Blue" book is based on the children's hymn Jesus Loves Me(proably not sung in the Greek or Russian Orthodox

church biglaugh.gif ), this I know for the Bible tells me so. If TWI were really honest it would say"Doctor Wierwille loves me this I know ,for he tells me that is so"

All the women to him belong for they are weak but he 's too strong. Yes, docvic loves me(repeat 2 more times), for all the lies he told. Gawsh, you is my kids. Whoops, the devil spirit named legion tried to posses me. Where's Taps/Ghost Hunters when you need them? spy.gif To any females who just felt insulted , please for give me, for I know not what I do. My humble apologies. My satire was too painful, just got caugth(where's the dictionary when you need one?) up in the morose humor.

LOL!

You know, that hymn started playing in my head when Steph read the title of the book over the phone one night, before she sent it. I was like, "Hey, I remember that hymn! We used to sing that in the Baptist church I went to before I converted to Orthodoxy!" And then I thought "What a stupid title!"

It's usually far more subtle than that.

But if you do get that option, it could well be a turning point.

You see, Brushstroke, we didn't just buy this stuff, we sold it, too.

We even had a "class" that taught us techniques to use to sell the PFAL class and the ministry in general.

It was called "Witnessing and Undershepharding".

Here are some brief exerpts:

"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power For Abundant Living -------"

( W&U class syllabus, page #2)

"Witnessing is a way of life as ambassadors to the people of the world".

(page #3)

"witnessing is like life- you make it work by "believing"--".

(page #5)

"I suggest you read How To Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

This will help you in this first step."

(page#7)

FOLLOW THROUGH WITH UNDERSHEPHARDING

(page #11)

"The best tool in undershepharding is the PFAL class.(more than once)"

(page 13)

and on and on and on------

How To Win Friends and Influence People? What is this?! I know what the book is, I am asking why they need to resort to tactics like this in order to gain converts. It's sickening to me that TWI can't just say what they believe without resorting to these underhanded tactics of persuasion.

For starters they'll saddle you with some small responsibility like helping set up chairs.

Before you know it, you'll be the guy who is IN CHARGE of setting up chairs.

They will let you think you are making some important contribution to a noble cause.

It will make you feel needed and important.

It will escalate from there in measured increments until your life revolves around running classes and signing up new students.

(Who, of course, will start out helping them set up chairs.)

Actually, it's probably already started with "the lending of the Blue Book".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you realize the Blue Book only contains the very basics that are taught in "The Class"?

Yeah, you see the other books go into much greater in-depth detail.

'Course you can't really understand those books by themselves, you have to read them in context with "The Class".

You do want to take the class so you will understand them, don't you?

I mean, once you've heard the "Truth", how could you possibly go back to your "old man" ways?

It would be like a dog that returns to its own vomit.

Besides, once you know what "the adversary" has up his sleeve, it would be foolish to go back to the "world" where he can do as he pleases with you. That would be downright dangerous. You'll be much safer if you stay within "the hedge of protection" that the "one true household" provides.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Starting to get the gist of it?

And if I refuse their offer and simply say something like, "I'm sorry. Don't get me wrong, you're very sincere and nice and all, but I don't agree with you." ...?

... from the mouths of the innocent: she is telling you that her folks know you don't agree with their doctrine and that they will make any affiliation with twi your choice... (if only I had a nickel for every time someone told me something was "my choice") The unspoken consequences of choosing wrongly are what they won't tell you up front.

What might these unspoken consequences be...? :blink:

Brushstroke,

I know you are getting hit with a lot of hardline stuff here... I'm sure by now you realize how many of us have experienced the worst of twi and are quick to try to warn others away.

Today's twi has "softened" and seems more easy-going so no, it doesn't surprise me that your gal's innie parents are letting her chat with a guy online, or that they would welcome your visit and even be willing to answer your questions. I don't think they would stop her from attending a church service of your choice. They may even seem casual about you joining twi, but just be watchful. The softened attitude is only on the surface, it really doesn't go very deep. There is always, always, always, always a hook hidden somewhere in their actions, because they simply believe with all their being that they have the right doctrine and others don't. That core belief drives everything else about them.

Don't ever swallow the hook. Stay thoughtful. Stay true to yourself. If you do those things you will know the right decision when it presents itself. It may not be the easy road to take, but it will be the right one for YOU, and that's the best choice you can make.

Her mother knows my religious views and affiliation, and is aware that I disagree with them on a lot of points. Steph has told her because her mother probably asked. And Steph told me her parents will probably just throw the offer out there to accept or reject, it's my choice. That's it. No pressure involved. Even if there is no pressure to join, all claims have a basis in truth and reality, something that actually happened or in what was perceived to be real. So if the experience I have as an outsider isn't quite as extreme as the experiences of you guys when you were in TWI, I'll just remember to balance what I see here with what I see when I get there and what I disagree on with what I agree on, and stay true to what I have discovered as truth.

I'll be fine.

I don't think she considers him a boyfriend. Though I could be wrong.

She is witnessing and getting him to fellowship with twi.

This is surely what it sounds like.

We have seen and done it ourselves while in twi.

Or this whole thing is a hoax, which is possible.....

We consider ourselves to be together...but...not really. It's complicated. I mean, since she and I technically haven't really met yet since we originally started talking online, it's kind of sketchy as to what we should consider ourselves. But if this is all something to get me into TWI...well...I just don't think she would do that.

This is from a "wiki" on Norman Vincent Peale regarding his Power of Positive Thinking.(1952)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Teachings

“Positive thinking,” as described by Peale could be broken down into a three step process of practicing repeated self-hypnosis, attaining “divine” or God’s power to use for oneself, and eliminating and avoiding all negativity in life.

The first step in positive thinking is focused on the use of repeated "techniques." Peale describes positive thinking as first and foremost as “simply a series of practical and workable techniques for living a successful life.” [6]

Peale, who had no mental health credentials, was vague as to a definition of his "techniques," although he repeatedly stated that they were scientifically proven and "firmly established as documented and demonstrable truth." [7] Mental health experts, however, clearly saw and identified the techniques as hypnosis.[8] Hypnosis is defined as "A trance like state that resembles sleep but is induced by a person whose suggestions are readily accepted by the subject."[9]

The reader was instructed through constant repetition of affirmations to bypass his conscious mind and implant suggestions into his unconscious mind where they would operate automatically, without the interference of conscious will. “Let them sink into your unconscious and they can help you overcome any difficulty. Say them over and over again. Say them until your mind accepts them, until you believe them – faith power works wonders.”[10] Peale's readers were instructed to "pray ceaselessly," to use his techniques repetitively and permanently.

Peale promised the reader that if they followed and practiced his techniques, they could attain success over almost any adversity. “It is a power that can blast out all defeat and lift a person above all difficult situations.”[11] Peale insisted that the only way to acquire these attitudes was through the unconscious and through his techniques. Peale repeatedly instructed his readers that their conscious will, their self knowledge, self determination, courage and intelligence were not be enough to live a successful life. He described these conscious acts of will as unreliable, untrustworthy and not sufficient to meet the demands of life. The conscious, self-determining self was to be rejected, disempowered and “surrendered,” so that Peale’s techniques and the unconscious were now the determining and motivating factors in the individual’s life.

The payoff for this rejection of self, according to Peale, was the attainment of God’s power, “I hereby draw power from You as an illimitatable source,”[12] is one Peale formula. Men now had superhuman powers, and God had now become "man's omnipotent slave." [13] Peale further said that regular prayer was insufficient to meet the demands of life, that in order for prayer to really work the reader had to use his techniques. Peale said controlling the unconscious, using his techniques, was the only channel to attain God’s power. “Surface skimming, formalistic and perfunctory prayer is not sufficiently powerful” [14] says Peale when describing his “prayers” for overcoming an inferiority complex. Formalistic prayer used for thousands of years by Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and other mainstream religions didn’t produce sufficient results according to Peale.

Peale also promised his readers that if they followed his techniques that they could always think positively and remove all negativity from their lives. Negative attitudes were not to be tolerated but avoided at all costs according to Peale. Negative thoughts were to be repressed, cancelled out and destroyed through his techniques. “It is important to eliminate from conversations all negative ideas, for they tend to produce annoyance and tension inwardly." [15]

Peale’s readers were instructed to never doubt or question a statement Peale made or this would cut off the “power flow.” Any negative doubting of Peale or whether his techniques worked were to be immediately canceled, and the reader was instructed to immediately repeat the Peale phrases.

The Peale statements, and the words that made them up were actual “things” according to Peale. “Thoughts are things,”[16] and the repetition of his phrases were more important than actions. Repeating positive only statements would cause only positive things to happen. But according to Peale, the reverse is also true. Thinking negatively causes negative things to happen. Thus the fear of negativity, of avoiding all negative, fearful "thoughts" and realities is part and parcel of positive thinking. There can be no positive thinking without this avoidance of negative thinking, according to Peale. “Never think of the worst. Drop it out of your thought, relegate it. Let there be no thought in your mind that the worst will happen. Avoid entertaining the concept of the worst, for whatever you take into your mind can grow there.” [17]

Wow...never really realized how closely the "law of believing" resembles the philosophy of the New Thought and Religious Science movements. I saw similarities, but when you posted this...heh, wow.

how old are you two ? sorry if this been's covered

She and I are both 18.

Lots of good wisdom here…thought I’d throw in my two cents – a penny for each point.

One of the biggest things I’ve realized from my experience during and after TWI is that doctrine affects practice. When you draw upon the principles of your belief system in a decision-making context this becomes readily apparent…And I think decision-making issues become a BIGGER DEAL when a couple gets married – because the details, priorities, consequences, etc., touch at least TWO people – more if they have kids. It helps if both people are sort of on the same page.

My other point is how TWI folks tend to have an inflexible belief system. Arguments for some of their beliefs are intellectually weak [like the law of believing, vp’s doctrines were God-breathed, their version of charismatic principles]. And because of that, resort to a mindless defense of their position by simply reiterating TWI doctrine. And in my opinion, a lot of their bullying tactics are due to this mental insecurity. They can make the littlest thing a big issue if it challenges their belief system – even if it’s the challenging details of reality…In a dilemma [or some situation where two people have to work together to solve a problem], when you mix a TWI person with a non-TWI person – the TWI person will typically “spiritualize” everything, ignore common sense, polarize sides and endeavor to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I've actually noticed this with Steph. We had a discussion regarding the deity of Christ a few months back, and I was pointing out passages that quite explicitly deem Him to be God, explaining the context and quoting some first-century church fathers and asking why they thought of Him as God when Wierwille does not, asking her to explain why these passages say this and why Wierwille thinks differently, or why he went to the trouble of translating the Greek scriptures in a new way when scribes in monasteries who spoke the original languages had been writing copies of the scriptures for years. And, I hate to say this but this was what it appeared as...all she did was either not answer my question (avoid it) and go to another passage to support her position, or just say something that I've read by Wierwille. It troubles me. We can talk about our beliefs and why we believe what we believe just fine, but the way she inadvertently avoids my questions deeply concerns me.

But yes lindyhopper, we should avoid the debates. We've agreed that maybe when I go to see her in May, that we'll go to a church of my affliation, and then attend a fellowship of hers (would you recommend this?). Just to get an idea of where each other is coming from (I will clarify to her that this is the only reason I want to attend). But yeah...should be interesting.

Que sera sera, I suppose.

~Phil

Brushstroke --- hey there. :)

If (and that's a big IF) your girlfriend REALLY listens to her mother;

it's YOU that is going to be required to adhere to THEIR beliefs,

and not the other way around.

Just a head's up for you here. Twi hasn't changed, over all these years.

They don't join you -- you join them.

Yeah...umm...that's not going to happen.

I was talking with Steph last night, we were discussing our beliefs, my concerns, etc. And yes, I was gentle about it. We had a good talk about what I think about TWI and its doctrines/beliefs/history/practices, as well as the beliefs of the church to which I belong, the Orthodox Church. But neither of us really broke any ground with each other, we didn't really gain any understanding, and at this point I didn't really make much of an impact on her.

But something she said kind of bothered me...

Her mom apparently knew Dr. Wierwille very well and was a good friend of his for years until his death. So she is probably very knowledgeable in what TWI teaches, perhaps almost too knowledgeable (or better yet, too brainwashed) to say anything that would mean something to her. I think this presents a very interesting new dilemma...

Your thoughts?

~Phil