Brushstroke

Rofl!

If I didn't know he was a fat guy I would have thought his chin was a beard.

Im not angry.

it is a fact for most of human history most people have not had a book to read from because frankly only the clergy could read and write.

was God on vacation did widom escape all the masses? do you believe only the clergy and those granted he ability to read "knew God?"

i think knowledge puffeth up is like this I know more about something than you so im better .

like I can drive a car you cant im better than you for example.

I sit the president at work so Im better than you.

puffed up about who or what they know.

that another may not today we call it "stuck up" .

I do not believe it has anything to do with how much bible verse you know. or dont.

I can read you cant god loves me more is knowledge puffed up and it is not a good thing to think about oneself or another.

our history as disciples of christ has often had a heirarchy involved and if your wise we still do today we respect "certain" steriotypes and amounts of education for example.

people say well he is a dr after all he knows better than me... and the dr say well I am a dr. after all i do know better than everyone eles!

but ask the dr. to change the oil on his car and he is lost. that is puffed up, see? i mean it is Gods will that we have talents and skills and abilities for sure, just do not get to the point your puffed up.

a relative of mine showed me this the other day he is arrogant and racist and when he gets all prideful about his house he says stuff and he "puffs up" i can SEE it with my eyes. All full of what he thinks he "knows". he knows he has his house and his life and doesnt really consider the other guys position.

a puffed up person is stuck up because they believe they have this knowledge that no one has when in reality everyone eles may very well have the same "knowledge but not believe they are better than anyone for it but rather use it to serve and love one another as Jesus comands.

Im not angry.

it is a fact for most of human history most people have not had a book to read from because frankly only the clergy could read and write.

was God on vacation did widom escape all the masses? do you believe only the clergy and those granted he ability to read "knew God?"

i think knowledge puffeth up is like this I know more about something than you so im better .

like I can drive a car you cant im better than you for example.

I sit the president at work so Im better than you.

puffed up about who or what they know.

that another may not today we call it "stuck up" .

I do not believe it has anything to do with how much bible verse you know. or dont.

I can read you cant god loves me more is knowledge puffed up and it is not a good thing to think about oneself or another.

our history as disciples of christ has often had a heirarchy involved and if your wise we still do today we respect "certain" steriotypes and amounts of education for example.

people say well he is a dr after all he knows better than me... and the dr say well I am a dr. after all i do know better than everyone eles!

but ask the dr. to change the oil on his car and he is lost. that is puffed up, see? i mean it is Gods will that we have talents and skills and abilities for sure, just do not get to the point your puffed up.

a relative of mine showed me this the other day he is arrogant and racist and when he gets all prideful about his house he says stuff and he "puffs up" i can SEE it with my eyes. All full of what he thinks he "knows". he knows he has his house and his life and doesnt really consider the other guys position.

a puffed up person is stuck up because they believe they have this knowledge that no one has when in reality everyone eles may very well have the same "knowledge but not believe they are better than anyone for it but rather use it to serve and love one another as Jesus comands.

First of all pond, I really do wish you wouldn't make your posts in pieces like that. It's kind of annoying. No offense.

And even though I don't really like your tone (maybe you don't mean to sound angry but you come off like that), I agree with what you are saying here. :)

~ Phil

Wisdom and understanding are commonly mentioned together.

Brushstoke, TWI teaches that wisdom is "knowledge applied," ie, doing something with it, not just head knowledge. Very interesting just looking quickly at a concordance at the scriptures mentioning "understanding" and how it governs our actions (or should do). There are two forms of effort required: one is to get the knowledge in (by reading, study, or listening to/ observing/ following a teacher or more experienced person); and the other effort is thinking it through (meditating thereon) to the point you can apply it accurately to any situation in which you find yourself.

Whether you are attaining that knowledge through study/following a teacher or through your own personal meditation, both methods reduce Christianity to nothing but an intellectual discourse either with a book, with another person, or with yourself. Practical application of head-knowledge isn't Christianity. In Christianity truth or knowledge is not a philosophical concept nor is it a theory, a teaching, or a system, but rather, it is Christ Himself (John 14:6). Before Christ men could only conjecture about the Truth since they did not possess it. With Christ the eternally complete divine Truth enters into the world. For this reason the Gospel says: "Truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17). I think that if TWI followers believe they have knowledge and truth because of some sort of practical method of studying the Bible and applying its' principles to their lives/applying principles for further study, or because of some sort of immutable law (the Law of Believing) then they're either guilty of bibliolatry and putting the Bible (the "wonderful matchless Word") above Christ, or they're guilty of bowing down to a law and it is then the law that guides their lives, not grace. Christ is the Word of God, not the Bible. The Bible is God's word in that it is inspired by Him. It's a record of God's ultimate revelation to mankind and is a collection of scriptures inspired by God that are to be a guidebook for the Church, it is the book of the Church, but not His Word (Gk. "Logos") and should never be spoken as such.

But I'm rambling again. Sorry if I got off topic. :blink:

TWI suborned our critical thinking ability and replaced it with crippled thinking ability. It called use of our God-given ability to use our brains as "leaning to our own understanding" if we "understood" something differently from what the leaders there wanted us to think.

Crippled thinking ability meant that we could not think things through to the point of applying them accurately. We lacked wisdom and understanding and empathy by seeing things too simplistically. Thank God, He can teach us anew and give us fresh understanding of those things that we "learned" inaccurately. In vain is the net spread in the sight of the bird.

Even as someone who's going into psychology and understands to a degree the reasons why and how people can be brainwashed, it still baffles me.

I agree, thank God!

~ Phil

I don't know--I will check with a few people.

When do you leave for your visit?

You can PM me for privacy if you want.

Penguin, about the visit; read this: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=17162

And thank you for checking. PM me if you can find out who they are. :)

Any possibility one of you could PM me the names of the Branch and Region Coordinators for TWI in Arkansas/northwest Arkansas?

Thanks.

I have children and my children have children.

guess what they do?

they want to know and find and seek and understand EVERYTHING in their world.

Why is a very popular question.

I dislike people who have this unseen spiritual awareness or knowing and deny the facts.

like suffering from an ailment and saying well only God knows what to do now aint much peace in living is there?

or on the street living on a curb because you rely on Gods knowledge to get a job.

give me a break.

The bible clearly says we are NOT TO BE as children that we are to grow up in our understanding of HIM and one another and where we live.

that is the wishful thinking of insanity and disfunction taught in churches.

like you have that magic wand God given even that can make "dreams come true" like in disney land.

As little children means in the context of love and trusting God as a Father.. yeah we can do that. but get potty trained first get it?

BUT GROW up first. not as a child we are to be responsible for much and we can not do that without knowledge of the world we live in and hopefully for me the bible. Gezz how many kids do you know went into some of those famous battles written in the bible or could lead scores of folks across many lands to what BUILD communities and lands and farms and shops.

Paul was a saddle maker where did he learn that? he went to school and interned under a person that takes knowledge of a skill .

be real . God is real and He knows were we live and it isnt in some ignorant insane world of making a magic because he can. It is a relationship with the LORD, obeying and loving and trusting with the knowledge we need to survive LIFE.

The bible says do not steal.

simple fact yet if i never read that or knew that i would be stealing away thinking God is ok with that.

so i read it and now im held accountable for knowing it.

the bible is a large volume of rules and regulations and life style hints and helps, if you do not know them or have enough education to understand them what good is it?

Wow, nice job at getting pi$$ed off over nothing, pond. You completely misunderstood what I was trying to say.

We are not to be as children with no knowledge, but we should not become confident and prideful in our knowledge. And we certainly should not become like children in the idea that everything we ask will come true, like it's all some sort of magical power. That's just foolish. That very idea is what TWI emphasizes, however, in their Law of Believing. Groups like TWI as well emphasize knowledge of the Bible or understanding this concept or comprehending that concept, etc. It's the same philosophy as Gnosticism, which leads to a person being puffed up in their own knowledge. It's almost as if attaining knowledge or gnosis becomes the goal of the Christian life, and not a relationship with God. But even if we do have knowledge (which we should have), we should become like children and humbly admit that we will never fully know.

Azrienoch's video is an attack on the theory of innatism. This view, held primarily by Steven Pinker and Noam Chomsky, holds that children are able to comprehend the world around them and have the capacity for language as a part of something handed down through natural selection. To extend this further, we could say the video also symbolizes our own fragile understanding of the world. There is no such thing as an innate understanding of what this object is, or what that concept is, or where such-and-such object came from, when this event happened, etc. Oftentimes, we think as if we do understand and in turn become prideful. I'm not saying a kid is going to be puffed up with pride because he just learned to talk, but by extention of the concept, our understanding or our acquisition of new knowledge makes us prideful.

~ Phil

In all that I have read and heard of TWI, it appears they place a great emphasis on understanding, and knowledge, as if this is the basis of the Christian life -- to study the Bible as I would study my textbooks for my classes. And they claim to have the correct understanding of the Bible! To those that still cling to TWI teaching and philosophy, as well as to those that don't, I have something from my good friend Jeff, who calls himself "azrienoch":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9r6EWxxLfE

When we try to understand and comprehend, we often find that we don't understand or comprehend. When we try to see or envision, we often don't. When we simply look, observe, and take in what we are looking at without thought, we find that understanding and insight comes naturally. So for those of you who claim to understand, who search for truth through your own insight, who study so diligently and who so virulently work to gain knowledge as Wierwille did: all your efforts to attain knowledge are in vain. Why bother wanting to know so much, when you can become like a child as Christ commanded and know so little, and be at peace? The understanding that you will never understand is much more liberating.

Just a little food for thought...:)

~ Phil

This is nothing about TWI.

Well, it turns out that I'm not going to Virginia to see Stephanie in May. A trip in June--a family reunion in South Padre, TX--has come up and I won't be able to get time off from work for both. Of course, family comes first, especially with my dad having just got out of the hospital. This trip to Texas is really important to him. In a way, I'm kind of glad this happened. My happiness about the outcome of this is nothing related to TWI, but rather to the fact that she and I were going too fast with this "relationship" if you could even call it that. So right now we're not sure when we're going to meet, and we're not sure what we should consider ourselves, if anything. Just very close friends, I guess, and we're both perfectly fine with that. This next college semester starts for both of us on August 25th, so it'll probably be sometime before the 25th but within that month, that we'll meet.

So with all of this, including TWI, what will be, will be, I guess.

~ Phil

brideofjc Posted Today, 07:25 PM

QUOTE(penworks @ Apr 28 2008, 01:41 PM)

One bit of info to add to this thread:

In '87 after I'd left HQ and was far far away, I told the leader of the first offshoot that unlike him, I wasn't comfortable with assuming that the keys to research, etc. that VP taught were right. For instance, I wondered what the word "scripture" really referred to in that verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God, etc.

I told him that as far as I knew, the cannon of the Bible wasn't established at the time that verse was written so how could "scripture" in that verse refer to the whole Bible as we have it today? He said he didn't have time to do all that research...

That's one reason why I had a problem with "offshoots." So I went to college, read lots of books, and got a degree in English.

brideofjc

The Greek word simply means "writings" which would include OT and the new forming NT, even though they weren't calling it that yet.

penworks: That's my point. There was no NT yet. There was no Bible yet. Didn't VPW teach that this word "scripture" referred to the Bible? Seems to me his stance was that the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation was what the word "scripture" referred to here. Maybe I'm wrong...but I think he got this idea from another fundamentalist...

That seems a valid and obvious point ... but such things were commonly overlooked i think ...

I remember some corps week teaching I think ... about gematria or something. It was where the letters had numeric values, and you could add the numbers up to come up with totals that supposedly had significance. But they used the Greek, while twi had been teaching the originals were in Aramaic.

...and to add to that: Gematria is the numerology of the Hebrew language, not Greek or Aramaic.

So I asked someone smart I guess, but it was basically, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". No point in having to answer to clear contradictions.

People are more comfortable ust accepting that they have the answers than having to face such facts. Like vp when he mocked the one guy "I have the answer" ... so that guy was vpw.

I suppose one could say "all scripture" just meant all scripture, whether it had been written yet or not. But how it was determined to include some "scripture" and not other "writings" is not clear. VP's answer was simple ... if it was wrong, he'd tell us.

I don't get it. TWI is so concerned about biblical research that you'd think they'd do a bit more searching into the history around it. So then you wouldn't have these problems of thinking the Bible as we know it always existed in some strange way.

A few of my favorites:

"Lord, I do not know what to ask of You; You alone know what is needed for me. You love me more than I know how to love You. O Father, give to Your slave that for which I do not even know how to beg. I do not dare to ask for either a cross or for consolation; I am only standing before You with my heart open to You. You see my needs, which I do not even know. See and deal with me according to Your mercy. Purge and heal me, humble me and raise me; I am in awe before You and I am silent before Your will and Your unfathomable ways for me. I am bringing myself as a sacrifice to You; teach me to pray. Pray Yourself within me. Amen." ~ St. Philaret of Moscow

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." ~ Salvador Dali

"Have no fear in perfection -- you'll never reach it." ~ Salvador Dali

"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is." ~ Winston Churchill

"Only those who attempt the absurd can achieve the impossible." ~ Unknown

Sounds more like you're 48 and instead of a bad brushstroke, you had a bad keystroke!

Do I really sound like I'm 48? Rofl! I'm just eloquent my speech, geez. O_o

And what about a bad keystroke? lol

Cool topic, Brushstroke! I think it’s a good way to develop our belief system – by turning our critical thinking inward. It took me a few years after leaving TWI to appreciate the critical thinking process. I like what you said about putting yourself inside another person’s belief system. That’s the value of another viewpoint – looking at something from a totally different angle.

It’s a great diagnostic tool – not that you discover absolute truth – but that you uncover assumptions or some fallacies - in regards to your belief system. At least you’ve become more aware of background processes. Many beliefs that were so firmly set in stone when I was in TWI – are now in a state of flux. And that doesn’t bother me – that’s part of life’s journey… exploring…there’s a lot of things that still remain a mystery.

Yes!

The only way to truly understand your belief system is to question it and see why others disagree. It's all about opening your mind, gaining mutual understanding, and seeing something from a different angle. Of course, despite being open-minded one should always keep hold of his own convictions. And I completely agree, there are many things that remain a mystery, and they should rightly stay that way. We can never know everything. It's one of the things I love about Eastern Orthodoxy--we're not afraid of saying "I don't know."

And...what is this about cows? :blink:

Brushstroke, on another thread I mentioned John Juddes, a Missouri Synod (Lutheran) pastor whose website I think is empire7.net would be a good choice to pm about you and Stephanie, and these threads you have particpated. John took PFAL, or Pilaf as some would call it, and is very familar about TWI and the questions you have posed here. He goes beyond what Raf O talked about. Wishing you the best. TLB

You know, I never really thought about contacting him. Thanks!

We should have our own class or topic that "dispels" Way teachings/doctrines and allows/ helps people to begin thinking in a non Cult way

This would be a very good idea. I know there's "Actual Errors in PFAL" but that only seems to deal with basic doctrinal statements that are in contrast with orthodox Christianity and with Wierwille's plagiarism and his misunderstanding of the Greek language.

It would be nice to have all of the information in one place. To have something much more comprehensive, like a catechism of some sort, that goes into things like the very ethos of the ministry and its' leaders and TWI's distraught history, with a biblical response or something from TWI documents to support each statement. Perhaps also something, within this guide, could be thought of that would be a helpful psychological guide for both Wayfers and ex-Wayfers to find ways to think for themselves and stop relying on TWI jargon and doctrine.

Here is an example of the types of things you will find in that particular session:

(Page 33/PFAL syllabus)

Natural Knowledge

Five senses can see the results and manifestation of Designer, but not the Designer.

1. Natural knowledge cannot find God so natural man cannot believe in God. "Pure

reason" leads to the highest science of the five senses which is philosophy; there

speculation sets in which leads to theories, defeat and destruction.

--------and that's just one little paragraph out of a 36 hour long emotionally charged class. <_<

So in a nutshell, this piece of Session #7 is saying that we should not rely on our own knowledge and reason, but trust TWI's knowledge and reason because it's directed by God?

Argumentum ad verecundiam, it sounds like. Ahh...gotta love logical fallacies.

Hello, Brushstroke

I agree that it can be enlightening and beneficial to consider a variety of viewpoints on any given subject.

One problem you will encounter with Way followers, though, is that they are specifically taught that doing so will ultimately lead to their failure. This comes from a session of the PFAL class titled Body, Soul and Spirit . (session #7) It was taught in this session that there were five steps that led to Eve's downfall. The first, and most critical of these steps, was that she let her guard down by considering what the serpent was saying. Trying to discuss alternate meanings with a wayfer is like trying to send spam to someone who has a state of the art firewall. If you can get past the firewall you might at least stand a chance of having them consider what you are proposing. Even today, decades later, there are people who are afraid to let go of this harmful conditioning.

Waysider,

Then I wonder if there is a way I could speak with them on their own terms. The Apostle Paul, when he would preach as recorded in Acts, always referred to the knowledge that his hearers already had, and he would expand on what they already knew. To the Jews, for instance, he would often relate to their knowledge of the Scriptures and the Law of Moses, saying that Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and proved from the Scriptures how He is of the bloodline of King David. To the Gentile worshipers in Athens, he used one of their own altars to proclaim Christ. Any thoughts?

~Phil

Dear Brushstroke,

Do I remember correctly that you've stated that you're 18 years old?

Your posts seem to be from someone with a little more experience than I can typically credit to an 18 year old. But then Alexander the great ruled a lot by the time he was 18.

Whether you are 18 or not, I enjoy your thought provoking posts.

Hah, yes Jeff, I really am 18.

I often find myself asking questions about my faith, whether they be religious/spiritual questions relating to Christianity in particular, or philosophical questions relating to the existence of God or to His supposed attributes and actions in general. Or I find myself putting myself in the place of a follower of a different religion or the place of an agnostic or atheist, and play their role in what they would say, what their objections would be to my arguments for or against a certain subject, etc.

It sounds kind of funny, I know. But it's a good thing to question. It strengthens your faith and you learn something new about your faith as a result. :)

Does anyone else do this?

~Phil

I don't have much to say, other than that there is a lot of truth in what you've said here.

Kudos.

~Phil

That's gotta be one of the creepiest things I ever did see.

That's what I said when I Googled 'Victor Paul Wierwille' and went to the site one time. :blink:

And look at the picture of all the people on the top of the page. Is it just me or is the guy wearing the turban a little out of place? lol

Makes total sense, Jane. Thanks for adding to the thread.

I think there are a lot of bored people still in. How can they not be. They just keep telling themselves "it is the accuracy of the Word, not the excitement." Wrong on both accounts!

Thanks for the "cuppa Joe, without the java jive." ; )

Yeah, I can definitely see the boredom aspect. It seems to me that people would just get bored with all this dry ideology of trying to understand something through human searching. I know I would. TWI calls itself a research and teaching ministry dedicated to finding the accuracy of the Bible. Research, accuracy, teaching...where is the relationship with God? Where is the mystery? Love is the greatest mystery of all and it is at the very heart of Christianity. It's incomprehensible, and to say that we can have some sort of special knowledge of God or to say that we're completely right and we have the full truth through our fallible human eyes is nothing but pride. Even though I believe Christianity is the truth that God's revealed to us, I think it's merely a reflection of a far greater truth that is beyond all comprehension, but at the same time is able to be experienced and felt. That is the excitement of Christianity! Knowing the unknowable but still realizing that you will never fully know; a continual searching and finding of the Truth that never gets old because it has no end.

But I'm rambling. I'll shut up now.

~Phil

Chances are good she wasn't at all aware of the way she sounded to you. But I would guess that she was habitually choosing her words very carefully. See, in order to defend the current twi you have to somehow laud the past but defend why it has changed without ever mentioning the lcm era... quite a trick.

So, if I were to ask Steph's mother what happened when Martindale was in power, what kind of a response would I get? :blink:

I beg to differ. I saw a new documentary on Jonestown about a year ago. They interviewed folks who were "leadership" in the church, and the things that came out of their mouths could have come out of my own mouth about twi at one point. And what do you call the farm in New Knoxville, OH if not an isolationist compound where the leadership rule with an iron fist? Just because they don't have death drills don't think they aren't EXACTLY the same at heart.

Good point... :(

Well, maybe a look at the past will give you some insight into the present:

In my case, I supported Martindale whole-heartedly when he was installed as President in 1982 because I didn't know any better. (I got involved in twi in 1981) All I knew was the company line which was that VPW listened to God and chose Craig to carry on the mission.

Progressively jumping through hoops I ended up in the college program for a year in the mid-80s. And frankly, that was a completely enjoyable time. I learned a lot, felt like I saw God do some pretty cool things, and wasn't completely way-brained by the end of it. But my big mistake was that I then married a fella who was "in for life" and followed his plan from then on.

We went into way corps training in 1987 and I watched things go crazy around me. At first it made me support Martindale more because it appeared he was being venomously attacked by folks who were hoping for a power coup. But by the time I left HQ in 1990, I had had enough personal encounters with Martindale and twi's flaws (and the arrogant leadership who didn't seem to care) that I just wanted to forget about them and focus on being a good leader in my assigned location. However, I soon realized that the crap didn't stop at the boundaries of HQ, and that I was woefully un-trained in the realities of actually helping people --- I was sick of it all within a year and would have just walked away if I could.

But remember, I was married to a die-hard and by then, kids were involved, so I felt I needed to weigh my actions very carefully. Any discussion that disparaged twi or the leadership was either shut down or reported to said leadership by my spouse. I quickly learned to keep my thoughts to myself. That pretty much leads to a victim/captive mentality -- you can't act on your gut instincts to leave or scream or fight back, so you shut those instincts down so you aren't constantly in self-conflict -- you go along to get along.

TEN YEARS LATER is when I was finally depressed enough, stressed enough, and unhappy with my life enough to contemplate making a break for it (quitting twi and the marriage). And then the lawsuits hit, pulling back the veil and allowing me to see that so much of what went wrong wasn't because of me, but was the result of a system that was terribly flawed in the first place. It was like the stamp of confirmation on all the questions and doubts that had been brewing in the back of my mind for a decade.

But my ex? Still active in twi. Still won't talk about Martindale. Admits twi made some mistakes but believes they have no obligation to apologize. And thinks everything is now back to a "golden age" because the intense pressure of the 90's is no more.

I think you can see from just my own personal example the variations of what even one person can experience, and still appear to be supporting twi. You stay because you believe. You stay because you hope. You stay because of obligations. You stay because of habit. You stay because you don't know what else to do. You stay out of fear. --- take your pick

What you've said here is very telling. It reminds me of a time when I spoke to Stephanie's mom, and she mentioned her beliefs and "the ministry." As she talked about it, by the tone of her voice I definitely sensed complacency, but at the same time I felt she was guilty about something. I didn't say anything, just went "Mhm" and "Oh, ok." Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I feel that when Steph's mom and dad were in the ministry back in the old days, they were happy with it and they truly believed it, and they still do. She knew Wierwille quite well before he died in 1985. I'm not sure about the implications of that friendship between her and Wierwille, but maybe she thought he was truly a man of God and she just followed the ministry without knowledge of the inside information. Perhaps she and Steph's dad never left because TWI brings them peace and comfort, maybe they're somewhat scared to leave, and maybe they've been in it so long that it's just a thing they believe and do and that's all there is to it. I don't know...but I do know what I sensed in her voice from that conversation with her on the phone.

From a psychological perspective, this mindset is characteristic of a member of a cultic organization. It's a structured group, most of whose members demonstrate unquestioning loyalty to a charismatic leader (such as VPW or LCM). The cult leader will usually govern every aspect of the lives of their followers, often threatening those who choose to leave with something like eternal damnation, or in the case of LCM, being outside of the "true household of God." There's usually coercion by leaders to conform to what they say or what everyone else is doing, etc. And usually young people are attracted to these charismatic movements because we're still trying to find ourselves. The recruiter for such a group will often try to sympathize with our concerns and worries and fears in life, and they will tell us that we need to join this group or that organization to help find direction. It's just a part of the human condition to want to find belonging, to want to be with like-minded people. Usually though, the followers will form an unhealthy allegiance to the cult leader or the group itself. Of course TWI is nothing like Jonestown or the Branch Davidians, but the way her mom spoke to me and the way Stephanie tends to speak about her beliefs is very telling. Steph...when we talk about what we believe or something relating to religion...I asked her once to explain to me the Law of Believing in her own words. It was very hard for her, and other times when we've talked about my views of TWI's theology and of Wierwille, she tends to get somewhat defensive. Her defensiveness isn't really very noticeable, but it's there.

Hmm...so yeah. Thanks for your post HighWay. I was able to glean a lot out of that. :)

~Phil

I think that's a lot of it... while lcm ruled he went from one 'sensational' topic to the next. The more he stirred things up the more he personally stood out (for better or worse). That's the way he liked it. Today's leadership doesn't want to stand out. They just want to fade into the background so they can ride the golden horse back to the barn.

So would you say that those who are still in TWI supported Martindale, or did they just tough it out while they knew he was wrong, and were waiting for a better leader? Kind of like what everyone is hoping will happen with president Bush and the current election? lol

It appears that all the documents, on this site and on other sites, that I have read about TWI and its troubling history are from the year 2000 at the latest. Is there anything more recent?

Thanks.

~Phil

Paw, even though I haven't been here long, I'd like to thank you for providing GSC. Without this place, without the guidance and insight I've received from you all, I wouldn't have the knowledge of TWI that I do now, and I probably wouldn't have a steady foundation to stand on when I travel to see my girlfriend in May. It's a nice way for me to learn about TWI, and also it's given me an incentive to study even more into my own religious tradition and keep myself grounded.

Thank you Paw, and everyone here who has given their time to keep this place running. :)

Hi Phil,

I agree in part. Yes, I agree we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways. Even with all the revelation in the bible we only know in part. I would add to your verses the ones in Corinthians:

1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Not sure about the pride part and what you mean. When people have boldness and confidence in their faith, it doesn't automatically mean they have pride in their own abilities or exalting themselves. I suppose its possible, but we'd have to look at the person's mindset who you may be referring to and what set of circumstances. In any case, I believe God wants us to have great boldness in the faith, and teach with confidence. Consider these verses:

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

In that last set of verses, I think its clear that the purpose of God's love is so we may have boldness, because as he is, so are we in this world.

Ambassadors have confidence and boldness in the power and authority they have been given by their country. We are ambassadors for Christ. As such, we have confidence and boldness in the power and authority given to us by God.

Furthermore I think having confidence and boldness in what God has wrought through Christ Jesus is the opposite of having pride in oneself or one's own abilities.

We should be confident in our faith, yes. But we should never be confident to the point that it leads to pride. I think much of Wierwille's theology leads to this sort of thinking of being so positive and confident that we become prideful of ourselves.