Brushstroke

Hmm... no options for those of us who were never in TWI?

Oh well. :)

We were discouraged from looking at or considering the “Ten Commandments” as being “Law” and Jesus Christ is the “end of the law”. Actually, he is the “end of the law for righteousness,” not for behavior as such. Yes, we are righteous. And we also have to live in this world.

It might be interesting to consider how the rules for living set out in Ex 20-22 (as applicable in our time) were broken by top TWI leadership.

Exodus 20:1-17 (NASB) Then God spoke all these words, saying,

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me.

• Not an organization. Not a man. And not Jesus Christ, either.
  

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

• Not observed from the beginning by those commanded; likenesses of various heavenly beings, animals and plants put in the Holy of Holies as decoration - but not worshiped.
  
• Cuts out statuettes of VPW, the Timothy statue.
  

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

• Includes acting in his name but not in his power
  

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; {in it} you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

• Obviously not applicable to Levitical class, who had significant duties on the sabbath.
  
• Normal work functions not generally permitted.
  
• The busiest day for HQ and the Corps, who had significant duties towards visitors.
  

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.

• Did VPW honor his parents? He encouraged Dorothea to run away from hers.
  
• Did LCM honor his parents? VPW had to speak to his father to persuade him that LCM’s job as Prez was worthwhile
  

You shall not murder.

• Perhaps not done, but self-murder (suicide) by a scorned husband whose wife had been suborned did take place and no responsibility was taken
  

You shall not commit adultery.

• Won’t even begin to go here
  

You shall not steal.

• Includes obtaining by false pretences – that the money is being used to further the work of God
  

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

• Includes “spiritual suspicion” and all the homo allegations
  
  

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

• Includes coveting someone's "ministry" or religious organization ("house").
  
• Some people sold property (farms) and gave the money to TWI, after a little "suggestion" by TWI.
  
• Back to the adultery thing
  

Yet how choosy TWI could be.

For instance, this verse, taken so badly out of context:

Ex 21:22 "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges {decide.}”

…was used to justify abortion.

And this verse Ex 21:16:

“He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.”

…led to a few rants about how deprogrammers and the families of Way adherents who arranged for deprogramming were worthy of death.

I thought it might be cleansing to consider how much of Ex 20-22 was disregarded. Or just the many ways even just the ten commandments graven in stone were perverted.

And if in doing so, anyone wants to think how better their life can line up to God's standard - that's all part of clearing out TWI's malicious doctrines.

The very idea that the Ten Commandments are not binding for us today is incorrect.

From the mouth of the Lord Himself:

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

(Matthew 5:17-20)

He fulfills the Law in Himself, in His words, and in His actions by performing the will of the Father in its entirety, He transgressed none of the precepts of the Law, declaring a perfect fulfillment of the Law, which He has delivered to us---granting righteousness, the goal of the Law, to us. He fulfills the Prophets by both being and carrying out what they foretold. He is the open door that leads to the Father, which was formerly shut under the Law, for all they had were types and shadows in the dark and they could not find the door in in the dark.

Of course, that is my perspective as far as theology goes. From a psychological standpoint, saying "Don't follow those old laws...you all are righteous! You're saved! What we don't tell you is that you have to follow our law now!" strikes me as encouraging that loyal, brainwashed, and at times arrogant, attitude that many TWI (and even many ex-TWI) followers have.

I think the premise is about as dumb as saying that E.W. Kenyon was a Christian Spiritualist, which has been opined on this website before as well.

Why is the premise as you say?

Your statements often confuse me. Why do you always appear to be opposed to any criticism Wierwille or TWI receives? Are you still a member of TWI, oldiesman?

When I started researching TWI a few months ago, I immediately saw these parallels. Not necessarily between Simon and VPW, but between Simon's bargaining and trying to buy the ability to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, et al. But it is interesting that you draw this parallel between Simon Magus and VPW concerning speaking in tongues. The Gnostics, in the states of ecstasy that they tried to maintain in order to escape the body which they considered evil, spoke random pieces of babble that had no meaning. On top of this, one can clearly see the connection between Simon Magus and VPW, two men, each of whom "bewitched the people...giving out that himself was some great one." (Acts 8:9)

well i talked to her and then just read what you said afterward and it was exactly how you said it. i told her what I had found out and at first she said I was mistaken and pretty much word for word reacted the way you said she would.even saying that we were "fighting" because of "devil spirits"

in the middle of talking she even said that if she had to she would never talk to me again so that we would never talk about it anymore. she got really angry with me.

but I assured her that I wasn't trying to attack her or make it seem like i was right and she was wrong but i told her that I loved her and she is one of my best friends and I am sharing it with her because i love her and don't want her to be mislead.

The conversation ended with us agreeing that we would look at the word together and discuss it together. hopefully this works out.

it really broke my heart because I didn't think she would be as angry with me as she was or that she would say she would never talk to me again.

thank you guys for all your help. really, it means a lot and it makes me hopeful.

That's how it seems to happen with Steph and I too. Of course, I think she's been a bit more forgiving towards me and my questions, but she does tend to get pretty angry when I tell her what I've found here at GSC and numerous other sites that say things about TWI.

I have a few threads I've created in the forum above this one, called About The Way. Take a look at them to get a good idea of where TWI stands on a lot of things. It'll help you understand (sort of understand, anyway...I find some of it to be gibberish) where they're coming from.

~ Phil

Getting back to the original topic: What is so ironic is that a religious group that once upon a time, prided itself on its "outreach" statistics, ends up.......well, where they are.

How can a group who wants to "reach the world with the Word" become so inbred that noone knows what the heck they are talking about?

(It's a rhetorical question, that many of us have been trying to answer for decades.)

No kidding about no one knowing what they're talking about! As an outsider, when I hear Steph or my friend Brian talk about it or when I read things here, I'm thinking in my head "Wait, repeat that. What do you mean by that? That doesn't make sense." There's never explanations to concepts like the Bible interpreting itself, what "the Word" is, or what classifies as "needs" and what classifies as "wants" or even an explanation of what a "needs and wants parallel" is.

Not true (at least concerning TWI). A central teaching of TWI is the future resurrection. (Resurrections, actually, with the pre-tribulation meeting in the air with the Lord of the Christians -- raised from the dead, or, if still living, changed -- preceding the resurrections referred to in the Book of Revelation, which pertain to non-Christians.) TWI teaching is that the dead are completely inanimate (non-sentient) from the point of death until resurrection.

Hm, okay. What is the basis for the belief in a non-sentient pre-resurrection state of the soul?

I hold to most of the core teachings of TWI, as I believe that the Bible teaches the unity (non-trinity) of God, the perfect humanity of Jesus, the dead being non-sentient until the return of Jesus, as well as some other doctrines. I was raised Roman Catholic, and was active in that church for many years, but now it just seems paganistic to me. Soory.

George

No apology needed. But, what do you mean by "perfect" humanity?

After this, I hope we can get back on the main topic. We've derailed this thread enough. :)

~ Phil

Obviously, much of TWI thought can't be confirmed in Christian "orthodoxy," because the main underlying themes of TWI (no Trinity, dead not alive, etc.) contradict traditional Christianity. Scriptures are explained according to a different paradigm. I'm not sure I would classify Wayspeak as argot so much as just a different understanding of the same phrases.

I'm interested to see what TWI doxis and praxis (teaching and practice, for the rest of us) you consider Gnostic. My reading of Gnostic literature shows a divine Jesus (often to the point of denying his humanity); a belief that the physical world is an illusion -- all is spirit; and a myriad of angelic powers, none of which would be considered as part of TWI theology.

George

The connections between Gnosticism and TWI are seen more in a closer examination of Gnostic philosophy, and not necessarily in a cursory observation of the theology of both TWI and Gnosticism.

Mainly, the roots in Gnosticism come from TWI's insistence not on faith in Christ, but rather on gaining more knowledge about the Bible, God (their perception of God, anyway), Christ, and history. TWI is all about "research and teaching." Sure, there is the fellowship with one another, but the very existence and execution of the various classes implies an emphasis on attaining intellectual knowledge which is seen as having a freeing effect, as one becomes a member of the "one true household", rather than a relationship with God being the focal point. Also, as in branches of Protestantism, TWI denies the doctrine of the future physical resurrection of the body, believing that the body is merely a "shell" for the soul. This doesn't necessarily mean that Protestants and Wayfers believe that matter is bad or evil as in Gnostic thought, but I have heard language in Protestant thought that implies a certain ambivalence toward the flesh, the material, and the body, as opposed to the spiritual, the immaterial, and the soul.

Also, the 16th century Protestant Reformers, especially John Calvin, emphasized St. Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin so much, that merely being a human was considered sinful in and of itself. They did see Jesus' death as atoning for sin, but only in an antinomian fashion. Justification for the Reformers was merely a forensic declaration of innocence that did not correlate with the ontological state of man, and any attempt to do "works of the Law" mired one in an impossible quest for "works righteousness." Truly, in Protestant thought, and by extension TWI thought, salvation is seen as a legal contract between the believer and God. Like Marcion, an early Gnostic (some would say proto-Gnostic) teacher, they preferred St. Paul to any other biblical author, and wanted to marginalize -- if not eliminate -- Jesus' moralistic teachings and the Epistle of St. James.

Like the Gnostics and some modern-day Protestants, TWI insists that liturgical rites such as the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Rite to which I belong, or the Latin Rite Mass are abominations, relics and shrines as too carnal and focused too much on the material, works of art as distracting from true spirituality, and the whole sacramental system as just another form of paganism, believing that ritual is unnecessary and is worshiping God "in vain" in the case of the Protestants, or in the case of Gnostics--not through rituals which impart grace (rituals are only initiatory in Gnosticism) but rather on the reception and comprehension of special knowledge, or gnosis. Even personal spirituality in TWI is very "Gnostic." Speaking In Tongues or "SIT", essentially a form of self-hypnosis as I have heard it described by many members here at GSC, is quite similar to the practices of various Gnostic groups who would attempt to reach trance-like states in order to create a feeling of disassociation of the "good, spiritual, immaterial" soul, from the "evil, fleshly, material" body.

~ Phil

P.S. George: What exactly are your theological views? You appear to support TWI doctrine, even after having left. Maybe I'm completely incorrect in that notion, but I'm curious as to what your standpoint is on a lot of things, after conversing with you in my thread entitled "Relationship with God" and this one.

I very much agree, Yanagisawa. As one who was never involved with TWI, I find much terminology in TWI, even terms used in other more mainstream Christian groups, like "the Word of God" to have a strikingly different meaning in TWI language and usage. This is why, often when I speak with my friend who is involved in TWI, about TWI, I have to ask her to explain a certain term because the way she's using it doesn't make any sense.

Honestly, to me, most of what TWI says about how "the Word of God is the Will of God" or "believing equals receiving" or "the Renewed Mind is the key to the Power of Christ in me" or even a simple term like "holy spirit", are pieces of mindless babble which require further explanation. And at that, not even the explanations make sense in light of Christian orthodoxy, let alone standing by themselves. In this way, along with many others, I find elements of the ancient belief system known as Gnosticism deeply ingrained in TWI doxis and praxis.

At the risk of sounding like a "Wierwille apologist," I contend that in a very real way our live ARE molded by our believing, in the sense that what one believes determines how he will act. (Not having a "Blue Book" on hand, I'm only responding to the quotation you gave, not the whole context.) As James puts it, "Faith without works is dead." We demonstrate in our lives what we believe (our faith) by how we act (our works). So, it IS important to control our thinking to believe God's promises. Only then will we act accordingly, and see the promises come to fruition. This does NOT mean, however, that my believing controls the world around me.

George

Well yes, that is true, morals and beliefs determine how one will act in the world. That's an axiom in psychology and sociology. And again, I agree that "faith without works is dead," as St. James puts it. This refers not necessarily to God's promises per se, but it is a refutation of a mere intellectual belief, or head-knowledge. If you truly believe in Christ, in His teachings, in His life, miracles, death, resurrection--in Christianity, then that will reflect how you live your life and whether you truly do strive to be as Christ-like as possible.

But God's promises that we will persevere through trials, and St. Paul's admonition that we are "more than conquerors" through Christ (Rom. 8:37)...these just come as a part of living out one's faith. Wierwille, in my humble opinion, focused too much on God's promises for our lives (some of which TWI simply made up) and on positive thinking, that he forgot what comes before confidence: healing the damaged soul, and he tried to take the place of the One who heals us: Christ. He put the cart before the horse.

"The Word" is a revelation of God. The Bible (at least as originally given to the prophets and apostles) reveals God. Jesus Christ revealed God's will for men on the senses level. And let me interject here that the only written record of Jesus is in the Bible. (There are a couple of sentences in Josephus, but many scholars conclude that these were added later by Christians, who couldn't understand why Josephus would write about John the Baptist and not Jesus.) I marvel at people who say that they believe in Jesus but not the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible record of him, why believe in him at all?

Thank you for clarifying. :)

No, it's not. Although I suppose that one could try to support all his wishes with Scripture, there ARE distinct promises of God for believers, including His supplying ALL our need, through Christ Jesus, according to His riches. He states that whatsoever we ask according to His will, he hears us, and we have those things which we ask. He says we are to come BOLDLY before the throne of grace. This is not arrogance, just the confidence we have in the love of our Father.

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Heb. 4:14-16)

Yes, we should have a faith and confidence that He will help us in our time of need. Well-stated, I agree that we should boldly come to our merciful Lord and High Priest in times of need. What I have read of the Law of Believing, however, is that it applies not just to what one needs but also to whatever one might want in life.

Again, do not confuse confidence with arrogance. HOW God chooses to fulfill His promises is His business, but expecting Him to fulfill them is our business.

God is faithful to His promises, and we should expect Him to fulfill His promises to help us in this life. But again, this is not what I have read of TWI's belief regarding "expecting" God to fulfill His promises. From what I have read, TWI thought appears to use the word "expect" in a conditional sense. It's as if one were saying to God, "If you scratch my back I'll scratch yours."

First, "The Law of Believing," as taught in PFAL, is out-of-bounds. The idea that WHATEVER we believe will come to pass has no Biblical basis. God DOES say that we can expect to receive, by believing prayer, what He has promised (Jesus's words state this, not contradict this); but there is no guarantee that believing wrongly will cause ill to come to pass. Satan is not bound to honor our fears, although he can use fear to get to us, as he did to Job.

Second, it's "The Secret" that teaches that we bring things to pass by our belief. In that theology, we shape the world, making ourselves gods (and not particularly bright ones, at that). There are similarities with PFAL, but at least PFAL taught that we had to know God's will, not make up our own.

Third, God warns us not to be desirous of worldly riches. I'm probably better-to-do than many people, and I'm thankful for the abundance I have; but having sufficient food and raiment (including a home) and health are all I can really expect from God. (And I do expect them.)

1. I agree, it is very out-of-bounds.

2. Actually George, in VPW's own book, The Bible Tells Me So, he states, and I quote: "our lives are molded by our believing...This law is further explained and proved in "The Law of Believing" so that we will become aware of our own thinking and then be able to control our thinking so as to manifest the abundant life which is promised in God's Word."

According to Wierwille, it is up to the believer to manifest a life of abundance and prosperity in his own life. This is no different than The Secret. Sure, you may have to know God's will, but it's still all on you. It's entirely dependent upon your own works and not at all on faith in the grace of God.

3. I agree. :)

Your idea of God seems to be very transcendent, which would fit the idea that NOTHING could be known of God since we are merely human beings (which would follow after Islam), but so much is revealed in the word about God and his love for man.

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments" (1 John 2:3)

My idea of God is quite transcendent in some ways, but I do agree with you that we can know God and can have a relationship with Him, we know that He loves us and that He wants the best for humanity and wants us to keep His commandments. But to claim that you know what His will is for your personal life, to claim that He wants you to be rich, to have that new car, to have a new church building, etc...that is what we cannot know, and that is what the Law of Believing stresses: material prosperity.

I think the problem is looking at expectations as arrogance. Not to get offensive, that's not my intention, but it seems like you're stereotyping all of believing as imposing a persons will over God's. God's going to do what God's going to do. If your prayers line up according to what He is willing and able to do, why wouldn't He provide for you. I think that's the problem in this conversation; one must know what is available and ask and expect. Yes, sacrifices must be made at times but they must be made with a whole heart or they are worthless, it is not through works that we are saved but grace and grace alone. Also, as for monks and nuns, sincerity does not guarantee truth. Seclusion from the world does not help anyone, we should not be of this world but we sure do live in it and have to deal with it on a daily basis in order to survive.

Well if our prayers happen to line up with God's desires, then all is good and well. But often times, they don't. In fact much of the time things happen that are completely not what we expected from Him, but we are thankful anyway because He has helped us. He's so much larger than we are, and we are so small. For one to blatantly declare that he has knowledge of the ways of God is, in a sense, quite arrogant.

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)

That is totally inaccurate. In order to receive anything from God, the first thing one must know is "what is available". How does one know what is available? "Find out from the Word what is available". So if something is available from the Word, it is within God's will. So, there was never any power to change God's will with the law of believing, as taught by VPW.

Okay oldiesman.

Let's say "the Word" (is the Word the Bible, is it Christ...? "The Word" is a very vague term) tells me that a new building for a church is available for the taking. But then another believer doesn't agree, he doesn't see that in the Word. Anyone could say they saw something revealed in the Word, and claim it to be God's will. It's completely subjective. Within TWI's distraught history, you can clearly see how this could be used by leadership to control believers into thinking that they knew the will of God for believers' lives.

Does God's will say I cannot have what I am praying for? Knowing what is available is 95% of the "equation." As God's children (I've never seen the term "mere mortal" used in the word) we should be able to ask our Father for what is available and expect or believe He will deliver. Also, the phrase "I'll do my best, God will do the rest" fits very well here. When you pray and believe for something to come to pass you must take actions in the physical realm that will enable the results intended.

No one said we can't have what we are praying for, but we shouldn't arrogantly expect to get what we want or are asking for. Again, we don't have control over God's will. If He chooses to do things differently than what we wished or believed, then so be it. His will should take precedence over ours.

Another thing I would like to point out: the Law of Believing calls for the believer to have material prosperity, in the belief that this prosperity comes from God. This is no different than what many charismatic and Pentecostal groups, and Joel Osteen, preach: that God wants you to be rich! While this is nice, it's just not biblical. It's like...Christianity Lite. In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of His disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his cross." In support of this alarming prediction, He forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," He asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives. How do Jesus' words not flatly contradict the Law of Believing? And what of the millions of monks and nuns who have renounced the world to seek after God? Are they seeking after their material desires? Hardly.

I suppose that if your relationship with God is ONLY "Gimme, gimme, gimme," then you have a problem. As Oldies points out, there's nothing wrong with going to your Father for something He has to give you. On the other hand, do you praise Him. love Him, glorify Him? Those ALSO have to be part of the equation.

George

Well no, there is nothing wrong with going to God for things that you need, but any petition must be done to God in a spirit of humility. The Law of Believing sets in mind that the believer has the power to change God's will by belief that one will get 'X'. It is arrogant to assume that we, mere human mortals, can say to an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God: "This will happen in my life, and You will make it happen as a result of my faith." Now, of course, people don't use exactly these words, or an equivalent, but this self-centered ideology that Christianity is about material prosperity inherently denies the relationship that God wants us to have with Him. Just as He puts humanity before everything else, so believers need to put Him before everything else, even their own lives. What TWI and it's splinter groups don't realize is that Christianity is a sacrifice, a struggle--and so is marriage.

What defines a relationship? I am not talking about strictly a relationship with God, but also a relationship with our friends, spouses, children, relatives, and others. For the sake of the discussion I will speak of a spousal relationship. I am not asking what brings a man and a woman together, I am asking what makes up the relationship, what keeps it going? Being only 19, I've never been married. But I've observed a lot, from my parents, from the relationships I've been in, from friends of mine who have gotten married in the past, and others.

The typical wedding vows contain the words "till death do us part." Now, while in my own religious tradition these words are not in the marriage ceremony for a specific reason, there is something that is common to all marriage rites, regardless of religion or sect. This is the hope that the marriage shall last, unto death, and perhaps even after death and into the afterlife. For many religions, it is far more than just the legal contract that it has sadly been turned into today. But how does that marriage last? Some, if not most, would say marriage lasts through the good times that the two have had and even the bad times, and this is all very true, but what is meant by "good times"? Those good times aren't a couple things that happened over the last...20 years or so, for example's sake. You don't really want those sort of things to happen all the time. Spontaneity is good to an extent and there needs to be a degree of this, but those big things aren't what makes it last. It's those little things that both husband and wife do, like that cute little laugh of hers or that certain comment that he always makes about something that she makes for dinner. These aren't surprises, you know they happen and you love it every time they do happen. That kind of thing, that sameness that you never want to go away, is what makes a marriage last.

Now, how does this relate to God? I would say it has everything to do with God, at least if we're talking about the Christian God, that TWI supposedly believes in. God does not change (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8, Ja. 1:17), He is not one to change His ways, He doesn't change His love for us, He will always be with us. So, why should we constantly be changing our ways and our conditions for God? This can easily been seen when you look at all the various different denominations and sects of Christianity, and the plethora of worship customs and theological differences between them. But, what do we make of personal spirituality? Those times when you feel enraptured by the "Presence of God" or "Christ in you" or the gift of "the Holy Spirit" or in Wierwillian terms "holy spirit"...whatever you wish to call it. There is a difference between a genuine experience of the Divine, a genuine communication with God that is truly an experience that is the same each time and that you never want to end, and an experience that is marked by disharmony, in telling God what you want Him to do in your life at some particular time. This is the crux of the Law of Believing: Getting what you want.

How is that a relationship with God? How can a person so callously use God like some tool to get what he wants, and say he loves Him? This isn't just in TWI, but it's seen throughout human nature. A lot of people, not all, but most, see their relationship with God in a conditional sense. "If God loves me, he'll give me this job I'm hoping for." But then when that person doesn't get that job, he does one of two things: blames God, or simply stops believing, thereby divorcing his "marriage" to God. Yes, the relationship between God and man is, in a symbolic sense, a marriage. We are the Bride of Christ, who is the Bridegroom (Isa. 54:5, 2 Cor. 11:2). I hope we will start acting like it, especially me.

What are your thoughts?

~ Phil

Hey Steph. I too am in college and have a friend who's in TWI. Ironically, her name is Steph too. The only difference is that my Steph was raised in TWI. She and I have talked about it a few times, I've cited some things about Wierwille's questionable history and some TWI teachings that contradict scripture, and it's like she gets really angry when I say anything remotely critical of TWI.

Be careful, is all I have to say. I know I've had to be careful with what I say. If you just go blabbing off saying "I think this is wrong TWI's a cult!!!" etc etc then she will most certainly try to stay away from you. Just pray that God does His work in her heart to guide her steps, is all I can say. It's what I'm doing for Steph.

But feel free PM me if you have any questions. I'd actually like to help out if I can.

~ Phil

The point of my post is that the firepower in that place is beyond the Security Dept. - anyone getting out of control (possessed) could be taken out in a manner that would best be called brut force.

Don't you remember the teachings that devil spirits would know there's a firearm on grounds or on someone's property and therefore they would avoid robbing a home or attacking the person with the weapon because the devil spirit didn't want to loose it's host ???

A host? This is getting off-topic, but I was wondering if TWI teaches that "devil spirits" or demons can only hurt or influence people if they inhabit or possess a human?

With this video called "The Renewed Mind is the Key" gaining popularity all over the internet, I have to ask, what exactly is the "renewed mind"?

No replies?

I wanna see how some people do on this. :)

http://www.inwardhellix.net/

It's an online riddle, and one of the hardest riddles I've ever attempted. I'm on Level 7 of the Main Game and stuck there, but I'm no different than the other 50,000 people who have yet to solve this. According to their site, only 14 people have solved all 60+ riddles and 50,000 are still trying.

The object of the game is to find the url that leads to the next riddle. At the end of each link, there's a word followed by the extention ".htm". The answers are usually one word or some two-word phrase. So if the answer was "awesome" I would edit the end of the url to say at the end, "awesome.htm" and press Enter, and that link would take me to the next riddle. It's pretty fun; makes you think. :)

I would strongly advise that you carefully read the General Hints and Requirements sections on the main page, and go through the Tutorial. If you don't, you'll have no clue what to do in the Main Game.

Good luck!

~ Phil

I'll definitely check this out on Monday. Is that 8:40 am Eastern time?

Download MalwareBytes from www.malwarebytes.org and run a scan with that in Safe Mode.

Problem solved. :)

Yeah I noticed this when I was checking out Steph's profile on Facebook. On the group "The Way International", it reads:

Description:

"Have you ever really wanted to understand God's Word? Have you ever really wanted to put the Word on in your life? Has the adversary been heavy on you lately? Then, join this cause. It's not a cult; it's a good place to start understanding God. Take the Foundational Class and learn about God. Take it from me, I thought for a while that I knew all about God, I read the Bible, went to church, I prayed, I didn't do anything wrong. I took the Foundational Class July of 2007. I enjoyed every bit of it. I learned so much and I was so excited!!"

~~Laura Edgar August 23, 2007

I love how Laura has to qualify that and say that it's not a cult.

On Sept 7th, according to some link that I read hereabouts, Vic jr is starting his own "Sowers" program (which happens to have the same way corps objectives) in the state of Mississipi!

any thoughts on the subject?

Yups.

http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx

Is that it?