Broken Arrow

I dunno, I don't think calling Waysider "Kermit" is that big of a deal. If Waysider has a problem with it he's a big boy, he can speak for himself. Besides, Kermit is kind of a nice frog isn't he?

Yes, willingness to be vulnerable is and should be contingent on having relationships based on trust. I agree emphatically.

Confession of weaknesses, vulnerability and shortcomings, to people who intend to exploit you, however, is definitely not a good thing.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you!

Rocky referenced an article that talked about the signs of a cult

4) Confession -- the WC exercise in writing an autobiography, "From Birth to the Corps" was all about demanding that each person reveal things that could and would be exploited by WC leadership (and wierwille) for selfish purposes. That subject has been discussed in this forum before.

What you say, Rocky, about Wierwille when he had all Corps write the "From Birth to the Corps" thing is true. However, I believe that true confession is good for the soul.

In America, and maybe in other parts of the world, we (especially men) try to impress others with how "together" we are. We seem to have a mistaken idea that if things aren't going well all of the time then there must be something wrong with us. We don't know how to be vulnerable, and we don't know how to hurt. So, we hide behind our platitudes about how great things are when they really aren't. The result is inauthentic relationships. We become afraid that others may discover that we are not as "together" as we act and we may lose some sort of social advantage. We don't come clean and involve others in our struggles.

The reality is if we don't involve others in our lives, we are more likely to continue with our same struggles year after year. Confession frees us from that. When I say "confession", I'm simply talking about having a group of close friends with whom you can share your shortcomings without fear of being condemned or ostracized. Not this public humiliation of confessing your sins and being publicly shamed.

We didn't have authentic confession in TWI. We really couldn't share our fears or doubts with anyone. If we shared too much "negative" confession we would eventually get reproved and maybe even demoted.

So having this "together" persona was emphasized in TWI and is also emphasized generally in the U.S.

Let's also not forget that the Mormon church recently excommunicated Kate Kelly for standing up for women's rights.

Btw, THE reason excommunication is used as a social discipline strategy (mark and avoid) is because a chief draw for cults and religious sects is the sense of belonging.

And approval.

Faith is a funny thing. I can't prove that what I believe is true, but nobody else can prove that it isn't. Oakspear once pointed out that most peoples' faith started with a feeling. Mine did, originally.

I was in 4th grade. My mom took me to Fountain street church, a liberal church. She would drop me off in this room where they showed cartoons like Goofy, Bugs Bunny, Popeye, etc. Then she would join the adults and after the last cartoon us kids had to go to our Sunday school class. One Sunday I waited a few minutes after the last cartoon for whatever reason and I was alone in the room. Then a movie about Jesus came on. Lasted an hour or so. That was the beginning. This feeling came over me that I would eventually become familiar with. It felt like the presence of God. It felt good.

After the movie I went to my Sunday school class. They asked me where were you. I was still pretty buzzed from that feeling. I told them I'd seen a movie about JESUS!!! They smirked at me.

The next time that feeling came was during 10th grade. Two friends, both of whom are atheists, said they were going to a prayer meeting at a Presbyterian church. I went. That feeling was powerful this time.

Then in the summer of 1975 I was a college student and I had a job as a state park ranger assistant. I was away from all my friends and 2 coworkers asked me to go to their respective churches. One was weird. This guy kept saying PRAISE Jesus while the minister was giving his sermon. That feeling wasn't there. The other one was better. The feeling came back while he was preaching. He got with me after the sermon and told me he'd read the bible cover to cover 22 times and the more he read it, the more he believed it. I went there one or two more times. One of those times I smoked a joint before going. They didn't act like they knew but they probably did. The pot didn't delete the feeling.

I went to my first twig in Oct. of 1976. That feeling has never gone away. Even during times of no fellowship. It doesn't feel as new and exciting as it did at first, but it's still there and it still feels good.

Interesting post. I became a Christian at a young age and I had similar "feelings" at some meetings I went to. Like informal coffee shops and church retreats. Interestingly enough, for me, I never got that "feeling" when I was in a TWI group. I felt it was almost like a business. The believers had rote answers for everything. Opposite opinions were politely ignored and passed off as that I would understand when I had "the class". I took "the class" and I was less than impressed. But everyone else seemed to impressed and shocked whenever I expressed any sort of dissent. Soon, I decided that the problem was with me and I slowly succumbed to Way doctrine. I stuck around for a long time and graduated from the Way Corps. I was convinced by then that Way doctrine was 100% accurate and its leaders were inspired by God almighty himself. Still, I never felt a tenderness or warmness from the group and I was pretty cold and bristly myself. Maybe I just have a problem connecting with people emotionally, I dunno. I always felt "less than" and that I didn't measure up. I don't think that attitude was instilled by TWI. I had that issue long before becoming involved. Why did I stay? I'm not really sure. I think I was looking for something that would give me a sense of worth and purpose. Twi didn't do that, but I kept holding out hope it would. Why did I leave? After POP was read but not because of its contents. It was the disillusionment of seeing men who I thought were like God Himself on earth, acting like young teenagers. It was pathetic and I was shocked at the immaturity of our supposed elite leadership. I still hung in there though for a couple of years because I held out hope that somehow everyone would "see the light", whatever that was.

Since then, and with the help of Greasespot, I've learned that, or at least concluded that most of what we learned was at best an opinion and at worst deceit. After reading writings and teachings from people other than TWI "scholars", I've concluded that really PFAL wasn't all that impressive with respect to "Biblical Research". And, I agree with Waysider, there never was anything uniquely good about TWI from its inception. Neither the world nor Christendom is at any sort of loss from TWI's decline. Having said that, I believe in a loving God who gives and blesses lavishly. So I don't doubt people when they say they experienced a relationship, a blessing, or a healing from God while involved with that organization. But these blessings are not a result of doctrinal purity or anything unique about TWI. I believe the most valuable things I learned from TWI were the order of the books of the Bible and the exposure to the written pages of the Bible. I think scripture memorization was a good thing. I still benefit from these things to this day. The interpretations of said verses, not so much.

For the first paragraph, nothing I wrote was intended to be a blanket statement. I apologize if I was less than clear about that.

For the second paragraph, again, I don't think there was one TWI experience. I give them more credit than you do. I don't think that makes either of us incorrect.

No apology necessary. I was just submitting another point of view.

The opposite, I think. It's why some of us still insist on going to some church of some kind, even one that's not based on the "rightly divided word," because the alternative, abandoning church and its doctrines altogether, would be a tacit admission that all the time spent parsing the choice of prepositions in order to unlock the nature of the Creator of the Universe might maybe have been wasted.

How could I have been wasting my time when I was taught how to think? (Answer: you were simultaneously taught that questioning God was bad, the first step to the fall of man. And the moment you accept the premise that God as a concept cannot be questioned, you become potential prey to anyone you believe speaks for that God).

Then again, maybe some of us enjoyed a relationship with God prior and maybe even during the years in TWI and wanted to continue that relationship. Also, maybe some of us realized that some of the doctrine that we were taught was critical wasn't really that important in the grand scheme of things. Also there may have been a realization that even some, well, maybe even most, of the stuff taught by TWI was wrong, or at least at cross purposes of what the Bible really teaches. Some people have a genuine belief in God and they employ sound reasoning. I became very disillusioned when I saw these men whom I considered great holy men of God act like a bunch of spoiled toddlers when POP was read. I began to question the validity of anything I learned in TWI. I didn't have the guts to leave at that point, but I was shocked at leaders' behaviors.

I never took the WUS class.

BUt I would argue that TWI was a bit more clever than what you're describing. I think they did a fantastic job of teaching critical thinking skills, as long as those skills were directed elsewhere. Spotting the flaws in other people's positions and arguments was something they did exceptionally well. They (we) just couldn't apply the same discerning eye to themselves (ourselves) in terms of what TWI taught.

I don't think they taught any reasoning skills at all. They just yelled at or made fun of people who didn't tow the line. I was scared to death pretty much the whole time. Why did I stay for 15 years? I dunno. Anyway, that's just the way I feel about it for whatever that's worth.

The only formal training in the corps has been:

Dale Carnegie training in SALES

I spent time in sales with real companies and I really wouldn't equate what was taught in TWC as "formal sales training". If it was, it fell way short. By the way, I don't think VP sent anyone to the Dale Carnegie Training. I think it was more that someone who was a trainer took PFAL and then taught the WC. Still, it really wouldn't qualify as formal imo. If one was going to sell as a profession they needed more.

I think the whole thing caused a lot of damage. It equated what some call "witnessing" and others call "sharing one's faith" with sales. There's a world of difference. I mean, it's not even the same thing. If you try to mix those Dale Carnegie or any sales techniques with sharing your faith, you will end up manipulating and will take Jesus Christ right out of the mix. Which is what TWI did anyway.

It's the time of year when a sales manager has to do his annual reviews with his sales people. He always saves one particular person until the end because he is a big braggart and all he does is ramble on with how "great" he is. Reviewing this person takes the longest.

Finally, he can avoid it no longer, and he calls the salesman in for his review. As he is required to do, the sales manager begins the review with the question,"How do you think you did this year?" Then he sits back and prepares for what is always at least an hour of this salesman going on about how great he thinks he is.

This year is no exception. As soon as he asks the question, the salesman launches off on how he is the certainly the best salesman in the organization and how lucky the company is to have him. But this year, it's a little different. The narcissistic salesman hangs his head and says, "Oh, just listen to me going on and on about myself like I'm the only person here. I'm sure there is a lot you would like to say so go ahead, why don't you go on and on about me for awhile?"

I can't fully define TWI but part of the definition is that it is leader centered. That is, the leader is beyond reproach and above any criticism or accountability. Furthermore the doctrine is set and is not open for question or for an infusion of new ideas. There is clearly a "pecking order" and positions of high-level leadership are closed to all people with the exception of an elite few.

Also, people who complete the Way Corps training are thought to be qualified for marital, personal, family, and financial counseling even though there is no training in the Way Corps program relative counseling of any kind. No licensed or professional counselors provide any serious training in these fields. They are also considered qualified for major management positions even though, once again, there is no training on management practices in the Way Corps. In other words, The Way Corps basically rewards ignorance as well as awarding unquestioning obedience to their direct and overall leadership.

Financial giving outside of the The Way International corporate structure is heavily discouraged while giving directly to the corporate is strongly encouraged and it is taught that such giving brings the financial blessings of God. This even though full time staff members with serious illnesses are encouraged to enroll in medicaid in order to meet their medical expenses.

Similar to the Roman Catholic Church, the top leader of The Way International is thought of to speak for God on the earth. While a Way member would never admit that the top leader is in effect a pope, the practice indicates this is the case.

The language and grammar I use could probably be cleaned up a bit, and there is certainly more that I'm not covering. But there's my shot at a definition.

Christianity in general is more screwed up than what twi was/is,(imo)

Well, it may seem that way sometimes but I don't think that's at all true about Christianity in general. It's news when a pastor or church leader has an affair, or series of affairs with church staff, for example. A pastor who remains faithful to his wife and treats others with respect and does what he can to help the community does not make good news copy. Even if it were reported no one would be interested.

You might have heard that in Ferguson the church where Michael Brown's parents attend was firebombed by a white supremacist group. It was a teensy weensy little article in my local paper. Did you hear that a group of churches in Central Ohio raised over $130,000 to help that church in Ferguson rebuild? Christians regularly visit the sick in hospitals, contribute and sponsor programs to help the needy and homeless and many Christian churches have food pantries for the hungry in their communities and usually those pantries are staffed by volunteers. It's called having compassion for your fellowman regardless of their faith, race of creed.

You NEVER had that sort of thing in TWI. In fact, TWI discouraged such giving and even went as far as to give to a charitable organization other than TWI was "devilish". The teaching was that the Devil rarely gives you choice between good and evil, he gives you choices between good and best. Giving to the Red Cross was "good" but giving to TWO is "best". That's from "Dealing With the Adversary". Believe it or not, most pastors aren't out there coercing young girls to have sex with them.

There are a lot of problems in the church and there are also fringe groups who are, in fact, worse that TWI. But Christianity in general worse than TWI? I don't think so.

I don't think corruption is guaranteed after power. Look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.

They've given away ENORMOUS piles of money after acquiring enormous piles of money.

By Lord Acton's thinking (the guy who made the comment about power corrupting),

they should have been GUARANTEED to be greedy and grasping.

I do think that power/OPPORTUNITY will AMPLIFY WHAT'S THERE. A generous person will

remain generous, a trustworthy one will remain trustworthy. Those who don't commit

crimes primarily because they'd get caught, however, would probably become criminals,

and the greedy will remain greedy.

You're right. I suppose there are no hard and fast rules.

I assure you, other former wayfers have been thinking about this parallel between the two of them even though none has yet posted to gsc about it.

Intriguing. My thought is that there should be some legit academic studies done from a social science angle on the phenomenon, especially if there hasn't been any done yet.

How about "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."? I don't know if a study supported this but it's been an acute observation. Kind of sobering when you think about it. I would like to think that if I had a lot of power over people, their careers, etc. that I would be kind and fair and supportive. But history is full of people that once they get the power they use it for selfish gain. What makes me think I would be any different? Then again, someone who's honest caring and supportive of others doesn't make good news copy. Maybe we just never hear about them.

Is life really all about a fight between good and evil?

At the risk of derailing this thread, yes, I think it is about a fight between good and evil. It makes for the best movie plots too.

My SUSPICION is that it was discovered BY ACCIDENT.

vpw was a LAZY student who cut corners and BS'ed his way through things,

and had an inflated sense of self.

(He shows signs of Sociopathy as well.)

We know he did this to the "Zero Corps."

He got mad at them and kicked the whole group out.

Then he turned around, and offered to let them return,

provided they rededicate themselves to him.

Many of them accepted this "offer."

So, I think vpw did that one out of pique, as an impulse,

then as covering his @$$ and getting them to pay tuition again.

Then he realized he could make this a financially successful

maneuver and worked out variations of it. This would then lead to

the versions we were talking about.

I don't know, but VPW did have a relative who once taught the Corps about the brainwashing techniques of the North Koreans.I was present at that meeting. The context of it for us was that was when deprogramming just started. This was the same relative who organized a "prison camp" for the 5th Corps once. The story is recorded by Karl Kahler in "The Cult that Snapped". I'm not sure how extensive this guy's knowledge was of brain washing techniques. We know, however, that he did the prison camp experiment with some Corps and we know he had served in the military. So maybe, just maybe, VPW did contrive the whole thing purposely. I guess it doesn't really matter if it was contrived or not. The result is still the same. Just food for thought.

I'm going to try to reduce this one to the basics.

In Fellowlaborers, we lived in an apartment complex in a small Ohio town. (We rented 8 townhouses that we called our *houses*.) We worked at Limb HQ, which was located in a rural setting about 30 minutes away. One night, in the middle of the night, 2/3 AM or so, we were awakened and told we had to be at Limb HQ for a special meeting in 20 minutes. Do the math....30 minute trip in 20 minutes. Of course we were all late. When we got there, we were ushered into the general meeting area, which was dark and silent. We were told not to talk among ourselves. So, all 50 or so of us sat there in silence, in the darkness, not knowing when the meeting would start or what it was about. When the limb leader finally arrived, he first chewed us out for being late and then proceeded to tell us the entire program was immediately cancelled. We were told that, because of our lack of believing, "Word Over The World" was destined for failure ...something about having a negative effect on Int. HQ because they were located so geographically near....huh? This kind of thing is devastating to people who have restructured their lives to be a part of the program.

So, we go back to our *houses* and decide to have one more 5:30AM morning fellowship before packing it in. We get to fellowship and are told everything has changed. Now we can continue with the program if we will commit ourselves to following directions from the MOG without question. I should have packed it in and left right then and there but I didn't.

And, that's the shortened, basic version.

Classic TWI technique. You are screwing up the whole thing! You! You're young, you're idealistic, and you have yourself fully invested in this. You're convinced (yech!) That the whole world needs this and then "bam!" Someone you respect comes along and says you are messing up the whole thing, and then kicks you out. Just as you're starting to resolve yourself to the situation they come back and say, "Wait! God has changed the revelation, you can stay!" Oh how thankful you are! You were screwing up the whole thing, but God and the ministry are "allowing" you to come back. Aren't they loving and forgiving and kind? You deserved excommunication, but they're "allowing" you back. You owe them everything, they owe you nothing.

The North Koreans and the Chinese did the same thing in the 1950's. You can also read about this same technique in George Orwell's novel 1984. It's effective if you're not aware of what's going on and if you're in a controlled environment.

I have a hard time believing that the leadership of TWI was smart enough to use these techniques on purpose. But when I hear stories like this, and think on similar situations where I was personally involved, I believe somebody knew what they were doing.

The more abundant life? Only around my waste line I'm afraid.

I remember when I lived with others and we had leadership. We had dinner ready and she was not home, but we went ahead and ate. When she came home we got chewed out because we didn't wait for her. Next night we had dinner ready and she wasn't home and we waited for her. When she got home we got chewed out for not eating while the food was hot!! It seemed the rules changed all the time and try as you may to live according to the present rule, it was always different. Don't know if anyone can relate to this or not.

I'm guessing either 9th or 11th Corps, right?

Can I ask if you noticed anything different about them, their "wrath", as compared to when confronted by the "imitators"? Did they really get in your face?

Forgive me for interrupting but I have a take on this. The imitators, as you call them, were play acting and you could tell. I'd walk away from VP of LCM (and there were others) all shaken up with my thoughts in a jumble. I'd walk away from an "imitator" laughing under my breath. Sometimes laughing out loud depending on who they were. With them, it was like being violently attacked by a house cat that had no claws or teeth. To answer your question, yes they got in your face but they made fools of themselves.

You can try education. But groups can gather to fight that too. What education would have helped someone like me? Knowledge is not enough. There's got to be some teeth.

GSC is a history book. Some background helps, yes.

There has to be more Law. Someone who knows how would have my vote. The carnage affects society as a whole.

I don't expect much . . . just throwing this out . . . If anyone knows more about that

I agree that the carnage affects society as a whole, but should we turn to the government to protect us from ourselves once again? What you are suggesting has been attempted and it didn't work so well. It was during the middle ages and it resulted in inquisitions. It came to where if you didn't agree with the king or authority you risked persecution, or even execution. Then a different authority would gain power and they would persecute for different reasons. There was no freedom for the individual and the carnage was much much worse. I would suggest that tyranny exists where dissent is forbidden and governments as a rule to not like dissent.

Adolf Hitler allowed churches to exist but they had to agree to support his agenda. If they did not they were shut down. The same holds true in certain dictatorships today such as China. They are deemed "not good for the people". Is that what we want? Churches or worship centers that have to abide by rules set by a governmental authority in order to function? What about those who refuse to abide by the governmental requirement, what should happen to them? Should we arrest them, perhaps put them in labor camps or perhaps (ahem) concentration camps?

With respect to the U.S. government, they have a lot of problems as it is. Congress just approved a spending bill and it's considered a great victory, even an historical event. Well woop de doo, they agree on something! Let's see, what have we seen from the U.S. government since 9/11?

Now they listen in on your phone calls and they read your emails-invasion of privacy. They've also taken to tapping the phone lines of other governments, even our most trusted allies, just to listen to what's going on. The IRS has been caught targeting certain conservative organizations in order to delay their formation. Not because the organizations were subversive, but because their political views were at odds with current administration. Their department head even lied to a Congressional investigation then hard evidence surfaced leaving no doubt as to the antics of the IRS and he was dismissed. The Veteran's Administration has come under fire for failure to address the health needs of veterans resulting in death in some cases and serious complications in others. They have muddled in the affairs of foreign governments, bribed, and in some cases assassinated other leaders in order to gain an advantage on the world stage. All of these things were done for the "good of the people". This week it was learned that our CIA was engaging in torturing prisoners to get information. When confronted, the answer we heard was this was necessary in order to get information to save American lives. In other words, it was for "the good of the people".

I could go on and on, but I ask you, are these the people you want deciding where who and what you can worship (or not worship)?

If you're going to have a government that allows freedom of religion then you're going to have cults. If you're going to have a government with freedom of speech then you're going to have hate groups spouting venom. If you want to be "free" from all of that then your only alternative is tyranny and thence a forfeiture of your freedom.

TWI was started by an alcoholic gathering up a bunch of hippies. Hippies on drugs, no? Altered minds get things going.

Of course modern TWI takes a stance against those things. Things conveniently change.

So perhaps firm enforcement against drugs and alcohol will prevent more cults from popping up?

If the above is bunk, could Law prevent groups like TWI from forming? (If TWI is corporate alone, wouldn't it be Law that needs to help?)

You mean, like, state-approved churches?

Here's the long and the short of it:

There is nothing in the Bible that says "9/10^th's will go farther than 10/10^th's"

(Adjust the verbiage to make it more Biblical if needed.)

It's just not the there. It's a clever phrase, no doubt, and a good marketing ploy because it appeals to human nature. But, Biblical? Nope. It just isn't.

Now, does that mean you can't give to a cause because that's what you want to do? Of course not. Give until it hurts if it makes you happy but don't attribute it to a Biblical mandate..

When I give to something I no longer sit in anticipation of a material blessing then feel ripped off if I don't get it. It's pretty freeing actually compared to the way I lived when I was in TWI.

I still think there's a biblical mandate to give to the poor. But that's just they way I've decided to live my life. Someday like everyone else I'm going to check out of here. I want at least a part of my life to be a benefit to others. Even if it's just giving a pair of shoes or something. Lord knows there have been times when I've needed a hand and someone was there to help.

The greatest cargoes in life come in over quiet peas.

Drop the fruitcake, back away slowly and no one will get hurt.

Who decided that fruitcake should be a part of Christmas? For that matter, who decided that fruitcake was actually edible food?

Speaking as a person that's run his own company for the last 20 years...

They had everything. No taxes. Great profit margin. Free labor. Free advertising. Dedicated and committed workforce.

And they fsked it up big-time. If the had kept their dicks in their pants and spoke the truth, we'd still be coming to ROA 2015.

I would like to think that isn't true of me. But, who knows?