Broken Arrow

This may not be a very popular post, but there is a trade off. There was Wierwille and his abuse, and then there were the followers who craved something from him. I'm not talking about the kid who took the class because a nice looking guy or girl attracted them into it, I'm talking about those of us who stayed for years. What was the payoff? We were getting something from all of this. I claimed that I didn't know the stuff that was going on, which was true. Then again, I really didn't want to know either. It was all there in front of me if I was willing to look.

But TWI offered me a type of "home". Legalism, and abuse is not pleasant to say the least. But it does make certain things easy. I need for someone else to tell me I'm okay because deep inside I'm insecure. So if I do the programs, take the classes, and attend the meetings, I'm "okay". I know because they told me so. In other words, I gave them the power to define me. I wanted, I thought I needed, something else or someone to tell me I was okay. I may have been in a cult, but at least it was my cult. While I may not be getting along so well in my life, or even with other people in TWI, I could still go to a meeting and it would be my place, a sense of belonging.

So Wierwille was abusive. One mark of an abuser is that they, well, abuse. Another mark of an abuser is just when he feels he may be losing control of his victim, he does a double flip and morphs into a very sweet and kind person and then reverts back once the control is re-established. So occasionally, just occasionally a person might experience love in TWI. Then the abuse would resume and we would wait for the next drop of kindness and affirmation to come from the ivory tower of Wierwille. LCM tried to do the same thing, but not as many people gave a hoot what he thought.

The truth is, as broken as VPW was, we were also broken, we were looking for something to fill our own void. This is, in my opinion, why people continue to stay in abusive relationships and situations. Look around you at all the people that left TWI only to get involved in an offshoot or another legalistic situation. I would have stayed the same, except in my case I experienced a crisis in my life that could not be addressed by anything that existed within the TWI framework offshoot or otherwise. In other words, that which I had given about 15 years of my life to had become absolutely useless and I believe I saw things as they were. That, and I started reading Waydale and eventually Greasespot. Then again, I had had other crisis previously and they never inspired me to exit TWI, so I don't know. I guess I was just ready.

Anyway, I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes or hurt anyone's feelings. These are just thoughts of mine.

Sort of ill advised to have a piano out in the open when it might rain, don't you think? I mean, it's not like 2 men can grab a piano and make a dash for it. Forget about the law of believing, what about common sense? Something ww was supposed to be gifted with to pass down to us keeds. Kind of like Yoda, and the force. Hey, I just thought of something. Do you think we're smarter now than Wierwille was then? Maybe all 50 plus year olds were smarter than Wierwille!

A different grandson, from another branch of the family. It was in a film where vpw made the mistake of thinking his affection for a grandchild meant the kid was going to be a prophet or something. I can't remember vpw's exact words but he was wrong about the kid. The kid and his family never "stood" with twi or vpw. He just happened to be vpw's favorite grandkid.

It was from that "Day with the Wierwille's" reading, I think. I believe he was talking about one of the Somerville children...one of the sons of his daughter, was it Mary?

vpw was a basketball player in HIGH SCHOOL and was never on the team in college.

(He said "played basketball all through college", but he never tried to actually say

outright he was on either a varsity or junior varsity team.)

He said he played for Lakeland College, which is a very small school in Wisconsin. Claims to have made their Hall of Fame.

people with money always got special attention

johniam what was that about sexual attraction? didn't understand

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well they taught us things like falling off our book case which we sat on to give our presentation. so people would feel sorry for us and buy the books

Did it work?

Thanks ww.

How does a lazy, plagiarizing rural preacher get to the place where adulation awaits and follows his every move? Well, he crafts out a persona, a myth. Then, he works to deceive......he connives and insulates himself from accountability.

Substitute the word "house painter" for the word "preacher" in the above paragraph, and you have Adolf Hitler.

These crackpots always have a special exception for celebrities.

They don't have to do the gruntwork, they get awards but skip the earning of them, etc.

Remember that Tony Collins (New England Patriots) was awarded a WOW pin despite never having

gone WOW or even signing up?

According to lcm's OWN ACCOUNT (vp and me),

all the local leadership in New England were AGAINST lcm showing up and giving him a WOW pin (1984),

and told him it was being a "RESPECTER OF PERSONS." lcm decided to do it after consulting

with vpw, and was convinced it would further the ministry.

This was one of the first things that really started the process of me eventually leaving TWI. If one were a doctor, a judge (you'll remember we had a Federal Judge speak at one ROA), a professional athlete, psychiatrist or the owner of a huge business, such as Buck Stoves, a Broadway actress, or professional musician, you were greatly revered in the ministry. However, if you were young and career-minded and wanted to take the time to develop yourself, you were ostracized. I knew quite a few people who quit doing things in the name of "moving the Word".

Just off the top of my head, there was Ken B., who was run over by a semi, en route to LEAD and Rachel W., who took her own life after she was severely injured in *the LEAD accident* and subsequently treated like a pariah. Another poster on GSC was brutally raped by a trucker. I won't name her because she no longer posts here. I don't have any links to refer to at the moment.

Thanks. Any adult over the age of 40 could have foreseen how dangerous this hitchhiking practice was. It was just common sense.

-prophet

"One who speaks for God." vpw expected his every utterance to be treated like it

came directly from God Almighty. He certainly expected to be treated as if he

spoke for God.

Case in point; in "Advanced Class '79 VP said something to the effect that if you were tightly connected to God, you could tell someone to go get a bucket of water and it would be the Word (or was it the will) of God. Back in those days, none of us felt that we could approach the spirituality of Wierwille so the implication was, if HE told US to go get a bucket of water, it would be the Word of God. Many other leaders took this bird-brained approach to their leadership and treated their people the same way. As they say, "it rolls downhill".

Joe Coulter, Donna Lomardi Martindale, Rosalie Rivenbark......If you were ON THE FIELD and receiving no paycheck from twi,

would you still be selling wierwille's products?

Get over yourselves. You COLLECT A PAYCHECK for working on staff. That's your duty to fulfill to your employer!

NOW......why don't you go witnessing in Sidney on Saturday.

NOW......why don't you go try signing up people for your current class?

NOW......why don't you schedule time to help some people who are burdened?

Oh, that's right......you're so spiritual that you get to sit in board meetings and pontificate. You have SO MUCH to micro-manage that it's exhausting. You've got the big chair to sit in with very little accountability to shoulder, right?

After all.....the corps sign-ups are pathetic. The class enrollments are crawling. And, the sunday teachings are so BORING that no one comes any more.....BUT YOU KEEP DOING THE SAME THING, OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

That's NOT genuine leadership.....that's authoritarian rule. Any thug can do it. And, have you noticed that the quality of people coming your way are the dependent, spiritual-welfare types? You know, the ones who have no ambition or direction in life and subsist to have you tell them what to do. Are you okay with this? Does this build your ego knowing that twi flounders in a cesspool of dependency?

But hey......you've got a paycheck rolling in twice a month.

What do you care if it grows or not?

So...if they "straightened everything out", quit being hypocrites and started doing all these things, would you go back?

Maybe we didn't die as a result of our partaking the forbidden fruit

He may have not had a hand in taking any one's life.

There were deaths caused by blatant safety violations (LEAD in particular)

I am aware of one death relative to hitchhiking to or from LEAD, but I'm not aware of any other. Are there more? Would you please tell me where I can find a link in GS about this?

Forgot all about it until I read this thread. I don't think about it much though at the time I was completely devastated.

Those are great points, Twinky. Many Christians seem to regard the 1st century church as some sort of standard that we all strive for. The Pastor of my church brought up the very same point and that is, the 1st century church was a mess and had a lot of problems, as does the church today.

Tragically, Ex, Lindsay Tornambe's younger sister took her place as a "Maiden" and is still in the group.

Un-bel-ievable!!! That any parent, but especially a parent who espouses to know God, would literally sacrifice not just one daughter but two and thinking they're doing God's will somehow! How wazzed out do you have to be? My God! That, and in the face of the oldest daughter's revelations. That's just over the top. But, I suppose people have been practicing child sacrifice to some sort of God for millenia. This is just another form. Man I'm glad I'm out.

he should have been struck my lightning

Maybe he was.

Yeah......and one corps week (1983 or so?) the rain kept pooling ON TOP of a section of the main tent

and rather than deal with the situation and announce for every corps person near THAT SECTION TO MOVE

the speaker up front [lcm or walter, ??] kept right on teaching.

The danger factor got intense.....a couple of guys got up on top of the tent and slit a hole in the tent

to let the water out. The bigshots were numb-brained a-holes. Several corps below could have been badly

hurt by this negligence.

And, yeah.......wierwille's "law of believing" ppfffffffffftttttttttttt :anim-smile:/>

It was Don Wierwille speaking during an ordination, of all things!

I read somewhere that someone said pride, which I'm taking the liberty of equating with vanity, is like one of those 50's horror movies where the star gets attacked by a man eating plant. As soon as he cuts off one vine with a machete there's another growing on the other and he barely gets free. Let us all beware!

I fully agree with Waysider, especially the part about the sandwich. If you find that you for some reason need to debate these guys, there are books you can read that will give you some common rebuttals for the Jw's and other cult groups, even TWI. You can find them in a Christian bookstore and probably a library. I found this necessary when a Morman duo went about converting a family member of mine. I got the book, then when they came around I had some things to say because I knew what they were going to say. They had to go get one of their elders to argue with me. Had it not been my niece or another family member, I wouldn't given them the time of day. My niece converted and moved to Utah but later recanted and returned home. How much did my rebuttal play in the overall scheme of things? Probably nothing.

Anyway, something you can do if you want.

I guess my point was that, if you haven't acquired a sense of ethics in between kindergarten and grad school, it's likely to be an exercise in futility.

I have to say though, I worked in a bank for a time and we had to go through ethics training once a year. We all hated it but I was amazed how easy it is to commit an ethics violation without even really realizing it. For example if you find out that your CEO is resigning and then casually mention that to your spouse before the information is made public. You will be guilty of insider trading if your spouse sells their stocked based on that information. Or if you're a public employee and order pizza for your staff who have to work late, you'll be cited with an ethics violation if the vendor offers it at no charge and you accept it. Or if you tell a co-worker of the opposite sex they look "hot". Ethically that's an inappropriate comment. I know some that would actually think that's a compliment and maybe it is in other contexts but not at the workplace.

So even though ethics sounds like a pretty simple topic, which it is, we sometimes fail to consider certain actions that may seem innocent but in truth are unethical, or even illegal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing anybody in the news or who used to be considered a MOG, I'm just making a case for ethics training.

i remember we had to get our malpacks together and be ready at a moment's notice to go underground. what was THAT prediction?

I think that it was the believing of the Way Corps that prevented that calamity. Or something like that.

How many of wierwille's "prophesies" came to pass? All of those acclaims of Camp Gunnison becoming a premiere *Believer's Campground* with a grand restaurant on the hill overlooking the Gunnison River.....and Sunset Corps couples buying into "retirement cabins"......and white-water rafting and riding stables for the campers?? Or, the grand scale productions at the Auditorium with full-scale orchestra.....and dancers.....and recording studio?

The spirit of VP would say that it was our failure to rise up in our believing to be able to see these things come to pass. You know, "I'm building a bridge..." and all that. Also, don't forget, God first gave the revelation of the fast food restaurant to Vic. Vic tried to get Christian businessmen interested in the concept but they just couldn't grasp the vision and failed in their believing. Then, once the revelation was spoken in the senses realm, the devil got a hold of it and now it's spread worldwide. (Sigh) If only people would have listened to Victor we would have "Godly" fast food restaurants clogging people's arteries. "I won't let you down VP! I'll sign the green card!"

ABSOLUTELY! ...and so was Dale Sides...

Love,

Steve

Lol! Just to name a few!

You know what Twinky and Allen? I think I finally get it. It took awhile. You're talking about "keeping a stiff upper lip, don't let your problems hang out there for all to see", right? I can see where you might think of this is an "American thing", whereas it may not even occur to someone from Great Britain or another country to tell a story like this publically. You might even wonder what the point of doing that would be since it isn't going to change anything that happened.

An American who cuts their hand while cutting lettuce might go, "Oh my God!!! I've cut my hand, I'm bleeding! I need stitches!!! Take me to Emergency room immediately before I bleed to death!!!" The American would leave at once to get the stitches, and then later, in keeping with American tradition, sue the hospital.

Where a Brit might say in a very controlled tone, "Oh drat, I do believe I've cut my hand. It would seem I may need stitches. May I impose on you to take me to the Emergency Room at Hospital? Of course, I will reimburse you for any expenses you may incur. You will? Oh! You're too kind! Well, off with us then! No use in getting worked up is there? I mean it's not as if it's the end of the world or anything. May as well enjoy the ride."

Does that pretty much explain it?

i saw michelle on dr. phil (not a fan) and she seemed kind of "slow" mentally to me.

I think that's because he broke her jaw and she has permanent damage. I think...or maybe she's slow.

"a very astute female lawyer (of hers i guess) was blown away by michelle and her wanting to do nothing but help others oh here i go, shut up ex ;)/

Please don't shut up, Excie.

waysider: LOL! How right you are...

I hear you, Broken Arrow. And you are right about what you said, there will always be something. I also notice that the few times I go to church, they are always trying to make it "youth" friendly, modern, whatever, and personally, it really bugs me. I DESPISE the generic, bland pop music they play in churches, for one thing. Or the LOUD ROCK & ROLL they play. I went to a Joyce Meyer thingie in 2007 with Hillsong there, and I almost had to leave because they almost blasted my freaking eardrums off. It was as loud as an old Billy Idol concert. I kid you not.

I miss the old hymns and gospels. And IMO, (and I'll probably pi$ some people off saying this) For the most part, Christian music sucks. Again, in my opinion. I love that cartoon where Hank Hill says, "Can't you see you're not making Christianity better? You're just making rock and roll worse! "

Coming back to apologize for derailing the thread. :blush:/>/>

Love that quote Rottie! There's some good contemporary Christian music out there. There's some crap too, but there's some good stuff. What really chaps me off, though is when they take an old hymn like, "How Great Thou Art", and they add a rock beat to it. Ooooh! If you want to write and record new music fine, but the old hymns are just fine the way they are.

It's a mixed bag for me. On one hand, I do get weary of constant news coverage of these sorts of things. On the other hand, it has relevance to me because I have local ties. I lost a relative to crime in this same neighborhood. We weren't close but it still holds a special interest for me.

What constant news coverage? There hasn't been anything in the news for over a year. Even then, the three victims hardly said anything. Isn't one of them allowed to speak out without being accused of being a greedy money maker? I'm sorry about what happened to your relative.