Broken Arrow

I would totally agree with this. Incrementalism. The way you really see this is by noting all the things that are asked of certain members in private. This is like Proverbs talks about in Proverbs 6 about the person who winks with their eyes, speaks with feet, teaches with their fingers - and how they sow discord.

Now in TWI, they teach that this verse is about the "seed of the serpent" men and women. How perfect. What a great disguise for nobody ever considering that is how they operate.

In the advanced circles, the elite of the elite, the pharisees of the pharisees, this is how it works. VPW, LCM, Rosalie whispers to a Cabinet member, a Region leader pre-prepares a Limb or Branch coordinator, then when in the presence of the person they have prepared in their hearts libel, slander, and false testimony against, a little wink is all it takes. A point of the finger, a pre-arranged signal, and people on queue attack with their libelous accusations. And people are demolished - sent away, kicked out, blackballed, labeled as 'possessed', shunned. I've seen this so many times.

Now in a normal Christian type of interaction and fellowship, you would never be able to convince someone to do this kind of thing. So how do they do it? Incrementalism. Teachings about commitment, step by step. The more committed you are, the more you want to be part of that 'inner circle'. The more you would justify to get there or stay there. It's a lust for power that drives it. Take PFAL, or the FNC, and you aren't even aware of this. However, as you advance, the programs stack up. Advanced class? Sell your house - get rid of your mortgage, become a nomad for the Way. Become trained. WOW / Way Disciple - now you're introduced to the more elite - you were willing to give up everything for a year and move wherever they told you. Corps? Same but even more - now you have people evaluate where you are every year and can tell you to leave or move. Clergy? You take a salt covenant with the leader to be bound to their will. Any misstep will have dire consequences.

I was discussing this with a psychologist over a meal once. He said that incrementalism presents choices in very small changes. Then you wonder how you got so far offline from normal. Every choice is not a choice between a scale of zero being the norm and minus 250 being your current choice. That would raise too many alarms. Its the choice between zero and minus 5. Then so on and so forth. And finally minus 245 to 250 is the choice faced. Not too different from where you are at. And spread out over time, the normal alarms in a person's conscience are bypassed.

Classic conditioning. Pavlov's dog. It's the tool of the cults. Behavior control. Control in general is the paramount thing. If you control the environment you control the person.

The mafia works the same way. It starts by being paid well by "the boss" for doing little favors for the boss when you're around 10-years-old or younger. By adulthood you're a hit man, i.e. murdering people for "the boss" and not even caring.

I would totally agree with this. Incrementalism. The way you really see this is by noting all the things that are asked of certain members in private. This is like Proverbs talks about in Proverbs 6 about the person who winks with their eyes, speaks with feet, teaches with their fingers - and how they sow discord.

Now in TWI, they teach that this verse is about the "seed of the serpent" men and women. How perfect. What a great disguise for nobody ever considering that is how they operate.

In the advanced circles, the elite of the elite, the pharisees of the pharisees, this is how it works. VPW, LCM, Rosalie whispers to a Cabinet member, a Region leader pre-prepares a Limb or Branch coordinator, then when in the presence of the person they have prepared in their hearts libel, slander, and false testimony against, a little wink is all it takes. A point of the finger, a pre-arranged signal, and people on queue attack with their libelous accusations. And people are demolished - sent away, kicked out, blackballed, labeled as 'possessed', shunned. I've seen this so many times.

Now in a normal Christian type of interaction and fellowship, you would never be able to convince someone to do this kind of thing. So how do they do it? Incrementalism. Teachings about commitment, step by step. The more committed you are, the more you want to be part of that 'inner circle'. The more you would justify to get there or stay there. It's a lust for power that drives it. Take PFAL, or the FNC, and you aren't even aware of this. However, as you advance, the programs stack up. Advanced class? Sell your house - get rid of your mortgage, become a nomad for the Way. Become trained. WOW / Way Disciple - now you're introduced to the more elite - you were willing to give up everything for a year and move wherever they told you. Corps? Same but even more - now you have people evaluate where you are every year and can tell you to leave or move. Clergy? You take a salt covenant with the leader to be bound to their will. Any misstep will have dire consequences.

I was discussing this with a psychologist over a meal once. He said that incrementalism presents choices in very small changes. Then you wonder how you got so far offline from normal. Every choice is not a choice between a scale of zero being the norm and minus 250 being your current choice. That would raise too many alarms. Its the choice between zero and minus 5. Then so on and so forth. And finally minus 245 to 250 is the choice faced. Not too different from where you are at. And spread out over time, the normal alarms in a person's conscience are bypassed.

Classic conditioning. Pavlov's dog. It's the tool of the cults. Behavior control. Control in general is the paramount thing. If you control the environment you control the person.

The mafia works the same way. It starts by being paid well by "the boss" for doing little favors for the boss when you're around 10-years-old or younger. By adulthood you're a hit man, i.e. murdering people for "the boss" and not even caring.

I would totally agree with this. Incrementalism. The way you really see this is by noting all the things that are asked of certain members in private. This is like Proverbs talks about in Proverbs 6 about the person who winks with their eyes, speaks with feet, teaches with their fingers - and how they sow discord.

Now in TWI, they teach that this verse is about the "seed of the serpent" men and women. How perfect. What a great disguise for nobody ever considering that is how they operate.

In the advanced circles, the elite of the elite, the pharisees of the pharisees, this is how it works. VPW, LCM, Rosalie whispers to a Cabinet member, a Region leader pre-prepares a Limb or Branch coordinator, then when in the presence of the person they have prepared in their hearts libel, slander, and false testimony against, a little wink is all it takes. A point of the finger, a pre-arranged signal, and people on queue attack with their libelous accusations. And people are demolished - sent away, kicked out, blackballed, labeled as 'possessed', shunned. I've seen this so many times.

Now in a normal Christian type of interaction and fellowship, you would never be able to convince someone to do this kind of thing. So how do they do it? Incrementalism. Teachings about commitment, step by step. The more committed you are, the more you want to be part of that 'inner circle'. The more you would justify to get there or stay there. It's a lust for power that drives it. Take PFAL, or the FNC, and you aren't even aware of this. However, as you advance, the programs stack up. Advanced class? Sell your house - get rid of your mortgage, become a nomad for the Way. Become trained. WOW / Way Disciple - now you're introduced to the more elite - you were willing to give up everything for a year and move wherever they told you. Corps? Same but even more - now you have people evaluate where you are every year and can tell you to leave or move. Clergy? You take a salt covenant with the leader to be bound to their will. Any misstep will have dire consequences.

I was discussing this with a psychologist over a meal once. He said that incrementalism presents choices in very small changes. Then you wonder how you got so far offline from normal. Every choice is not a choice between a scale of zero being the norm and minus 250 being your current choice. That would raise too many alarms. Its the choice between zero and minus 5. Then so on and so forth. And finally minus 245 to 250 is the choice faced. Not too different from where you are at. And spread out over time, the normal alarms in a person's conscience are bypassed.

Classic conditioning. Pavlov's dog. It's the tool of the cults. Behavior control. Control in general is the paramount thing. If you control the environment you control the person.

The mafia works the same way. It starts by being paid well by "the boss" for doing little favors for the boss when you're around 10-years-old or younger. By adulthood you're a hit man, i.e. murdering people for "the boss" and not even caring.

Has the general populace lost their critical thinking skills to discern when they're being "played?"

Yes, the general populace has lost, or is losing, their critical thinking skills. There are people everywhere who are hanging onto empty or false promises. It's rather sad

I found out cult-like thinking and cult-like loyalty can also exist in families, businesses, and just about any other institution. Personal freedom is always under attack even in the smallest ways.

TWI doctrine is the immodium of the people.

Wierwille opened a Living Victoriously session by stating, "Religion is the opiate of the people." I put it in the category of outrageous because that is actually a quote from The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx. Wierwille never attributed this statement as a quote and he certainly didn't say it was from The Communist Manifesto. That was representing someone's idea as his own. In other words, it was plagiarism. I'm sure someone in that audience recognized the quote. I wonder if he was ever called out on it.

I remember LCM stating that the earth was the center of the universe... that Galileo had it wrong.

How positively medieval of him!

Incredible! I'm tellin' ya the guy was born out of time. He would have fit so well as part of the inquisition.

...and yet, there are folks in twi and ex-twiers who pant after another teaching. Ummmm....why not just try to live what one already knows?

Right. After all Jesus said he would not leave us as orphans. Not that one shouldn't have communion with others (humans need other humans) but we certainly shouldn't have to jump from one major, money-draining event to another.

Not staying humble and playing "diva" with God just causes you to go blind.

I guess if all this was easy, then wolves couldn't disguise themselves as sheep.

Nicely stated Chockfull!

When I was young my mother, a democrat, told me that Elinor Roosvelt once said of Richard Nixon, that his ambition was frightening.

Does anyone here have any stories or recollection of people who had ambition that was "frightening" in twi?

Yes...me!

Not an option, though, for Internationals...we were expected to attend. The mighty US calls.

For such reasons, the US is not seen favorably by overseas countries.

I realize of course that this wasn't the crux of your post but the U.S. wasn't calling you to the Rock of Ages, TWI was. So I'm a bit mystified when you say, "For such reasons the U.S. is not seen favorably by overseas countries." The U.S. is not seen favorably because TWI compelled you to go to the Rock of Ages?

And, yet, Wierwille claimed that, when he was at the end of his rope,debating an exit from ministerial work, he asked God for a sign and.....voila!, the sky turned black with snow.

So, which is it? You can ask for a sign or you can't ask for a sign?.....silly little details often seem to spoil a good fib.

The line goes that since the rightly divided Word had been so buried for so long that God had to give special revelation just for Wierwille. It would never happen to us peons. BTW, how does a sky go "black with (white) snow?

I don't recall anyone inside twi ever questioning his doctorate.

Not that it matters but I do. I remember a SNS tape where he publically defended his doctorate. He said something like, "There are some who are saying I didn't earn my doctorate and that it was only honorary. But I did earn my doctorate, I did the work...." (Even though that's in quotations it is not a direct quote). I can't tell you the date so you're welcome to dismiss this. He did not say whether those questioning him were in or outside of TWI, but why respond to it if just some outsider were saying it? Someone else may remember that, too. I do know it was in the mid-70's.

vpw did the same tning with his intentionally-ambiguous claims concerning athletics.

He said he "played basketball" all through college, and was associated with the Sheboygan

Redskins Basketball NBL team. What did honest people conclude?

They thought he was on his college's Varsity Basketball team and that he earned his Varsity

letter on it, and then he went on to become a member of the Sheboygan Redskins.

What was the reality? He was on NEITHER team, and if confronted on it, he TECHNICALLY could

have claimed he never actually SAID he was. However, he intentionally misled everyone by

implying he did, and phrasing things deliberately to suggest he did.

Not that it matters that much, but supposidely one year he was inducted into the college's basketball hall of fame. LCM talked about being at the ceremony when he was inducted. You sure he didn't play on the basketball team? I mean, why lie about that? Then again, stranger things have happened.

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Doctor of Theology Degree

By being in attendance at the seminary in Colorado, he was completing his requirements for a Doctor of Theology degree.

I'm telling you, Wierwille told my Corps that his doctorate was in homiletics, not theology. I remember because I was slightly surprised. Does anyone else remember hearing him say that? Maybe I dreamed it.

Johniam...I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you but most of what I would have said in response to your post to me has already been stated by other posters. I see no need to just reiterate what's already been said.

So far all I have seen in the *ministry* is that this "antedote" is merely an excuse for gawd awful ungodly sycophants to behave badly.

The blood of Jesus is claimed to wash all of the hatred, malevolence and bigotry away..

can't say that's exactly what I observed there..

For some reason talking about the "blood of Jesus" was a big no no in TWI. You could say "God made me pure", but you could not say you were "washed in the blood of Jesus". That was too close to saying Jesus was God, I guess.

quote: How about that through the accomplished works of God through Jesus Christ that mankind has an antedote for sin. That mankind has access to God, to eternal life, to peace, joy and the other fruit of the spirit, SPEAKING of which, that by SIT mankind has absolute proof of Christ's finished works and that he's coming back to reward us and ever be with us. How about THAT? That's something worth teaching.

You were taught SIT in a Methodist church Sunday school? Whoa! SIT never stopped anybody from asking God for help. Not me, anyway. I think VP said the gift of holy spirit (comforter) takes the place of the absent Christ. That's why it was expedient that Jesus go away. Jesus doesn't go away, no gift of holy spirit. I don't see the "blasphemy" and I don't have a problem with the word 'absent'.

No, I wasn't taught about speaking in tongues in the Methodist Church, but thanks for the laugh. I'll allow that "blasphemy" may be too strong a word though it still reflects my personal feelings. You just said it yourself, "the gift of holy spirit (comforter) takes the place of the absent Christ." That is not a Christian view and Christ is not absent. How could he be head of the church and be absent? How could it be Christ in us if Christ is absent?

Personally, I was not involved with TWI, nor did I swallow the doctrine hook, line, and sinker because I thought Wierwille was a doctor. Nor did I leave TWI and forsake their doctrine just because I learned his credentials were questionable. Even if VP earned a doctorate in theology from a respected institution, I still would not be fellowshipping with TWI based on other criteria. For me this is a non-issue. It may be of interest, however, to those who believe VP was a doctor of theology.

Waysider, nothing is good about that song.

I have no recollection of writing that post; I have no idea why I would make such a smart-aleck statement. Sorry.

[

I'm not saying what they did was right or wrong. I'm just saying that the God of the Bible can't lie. Unless, of course, He was lying when He gave THAT revelation...

:) George

I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive, sorry. I was just waxing philosophical.

How about that through the accomplished works of God through Jesus Christ that mankind has an antedote for sin. That mankind has access to God, to eternal life, to peace, joy and the other fruit of the spirit, SPEAKING of which, that by SIT mankind has absolute proof of Christ's finished works and that he's coming back to reward us and ever be with us. How about THAT? That's something worth teaching.

And that, to me, encapsulates the whole problem with TWI. Yes, that was taught, I learned it first in Sunday school in a Methodist church but I digress. TWI taught that but in practice they acted as though Jesus Christ never existed. That all we had to do was say, "I'm sorry" when we sinned. No mention (in my memory) that a Christian should seek Christ's help in turning our lives from sin to live more lovingly. Speaking in tongues was vaunted above the accomplished work of Christ its meaning and its purpose...in my opinion.

If I remember correctly "Dr." went as far as to say, "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ." That's very serious error and borders on blasphemy.

I remember LCM teaching Exodus (no, not the one where everybody leaves TWI), and saying that if the midwives lied about the Hebrew boys, it was because God told them to. You could have heard a pin drop in the big tent. But it didn't take long for the "faithful" to swallow it. My assistant TC remarked after the teaching about this new "revelation." I pointed out that the Bible says it's impossible for God to lie, so how could He give "revelation" to do so? Plenty of believers lied in the OT, and it often worked out for the best; but they weren't spouting God's words!

George

Okay George you just brought up a topic I've thought about a lot. By the way, I'll admit this is off topic and we'll take it to another thread if need be but I have a question for you. If you know for a fact that someone is going to take the truth you tell them to commit an act of murder, would it not be appropriate to lie in such an instance? This is akin to the holocaust when the Nazi's would ask gentiles if they had any Jews in their house. Had the Gentiles said yes, they knew the Nazis would cart them off to a concentration camps where they would be executed. Was it not more appropriate to commit a lesser "sin" to prevent a greater one? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts. Please understand that I'm not defending LCM. I am, I thinking, making a case for why in specific cases it might be appropriate to commit a lesser sin to prevent a greater one.

I like the observation about slavery. ""Slavery was not as bad as it was made out to be. They were in loving households and were taken care of."

You have to wonder what was in their Idiot Juice that morning that pushed that particular person to the edge of sanity and then having given their sorry as s a good kick, sent it over into the canyons of insanity. Whatever it was it must have tasted really good.

I suppose the idea of being kidnapped and taken to another country where you lived - if you survived - with a "loving household" that "took care of you" wasn't all that bad. Plus, having a dollar value placed on your body must have been been a confidence builder. Some people never know their own worth. Slaves had it tagged coming out of the gate. Who wouldn't appreciate that kind of attention?

I don't give a s hit what the context was, that statement alone is so laden with layers of anti-value it glows like kryptonite to the brain. Hearing it should have come with a warning that actual brain cells will be destroyed in the process of hearing it and attempting to reckon it, so try to expose an area you won't need for the next class, like the frontal lobe.

Don't forget there was also a nice, relaxing boat ride across the Atlantic Ocean prior to being sold as property to "a loving family".