Broken Arrow

I've actually heard a little bit of African Christian music. Very uplifting, light and happy sounding. I've been told that if you are in an African (not African-American) church and you don't dance, they think there must be something wrong with you. If you're not excited, then why aren't you dancing? It's what I've been told, anyway. Here, a lot of the churches think its weird if you do dance during a worship service. "Are you letting your emotions get the best of you? Watch out, you're getting out of control!"

Who really knows where the many talented people involved with TWI might have gone had they

not been interfered with by TWI "management". There were many talented folks ...not only in music,

but also in art, writing, etc.

"Creativity" or artistic freedom was not possible in TWI and many suffered for it.

Personally, in my 4- 5 years involvement in TWI, I thought the majority of the music was rather amateurish

and poorly produced compared to more mainstream Christian music.

I never understood the glassy-eyed adoration of Good Seed, Pressed Down, et al. I thought they

were mediocre at best. Comparing any of these to the Eagles or Crosby, Stills, Nash is a stretch.

I think it might depend on when you heard them. Their stuff from '72, I believe, was right up there with anybody secular or otherwise. Later on though, you're right. It kind of went the way of "Easy Listening" with a couple exceptions. I personally think Good Seed did well.

I do agree, though, that the production quality coming out of TWI was often shoddy.

Double post.

quote: JAL, above all things, loves to hear the cheer of the crowd. He'll do whatever it takes to get it. That's my opinion, anyway.

Similarities between JL and Paul. Both were serving God as best as they knew. Both changed their minds about certain things. Paul didn't start his ministry until 14 years after his conversion. Paul spoke to a different audience as well (Gentiles instead of Jews). JL changed his mind about the law of believing in what? 1988? I'm sure Paul liked the cheering of the crowd, too.

This was written in response to my statement that "JAL above all things loves to hear the cheer of the crowd. He'll do whatever it takes to get it. That's my opinion anyway".

I'll admit that is a statement that cannot be backed up with any hard evidence. It's just my opinion as I stated earlier. that is what this forum is all about.

With that being said, I'll respond to you and of course you're welcome to disagree. I don't think even JAL would draw a comparison between himself and the Apostle Paul. I do not think Paul's motivation in his preaching and writing was to hear the "cheer of the crowd". If he were interested only in accolades he would have remained a pharisee. I'm sure he appreciated hearing that people enjoyed his teachings, who wouldn't? That is different though from doing the work with the purpose of hearing praise.

I like John L. a lot. I don't think his life is about searching for God as I see him continue to split off and do his own thing. There are other things that he's done that are fact that have already been expressed in this thread.

These are just my observations that lead me to my own conclusions. Nevetheless I really love John a lot, and I wish him all the best. I just think he's wrong, very wrong and I would caution anyone from being involved with his ministry. I don't think it will kill someone to listen to a teaching or two. However, to allow oneself to look to his organization as the primary vehicle for worship and spiritual nurture would be a dangerous thing.

I dunno. I could pick myself up.. and navigate my way across eight or nine hundred miles across country, if I had to.

What is supposed to be "Christian" about that?

I mean, really. I would know what I would need to bring..

what herbs, supplies, and so on I'd have to somehow acquire along the way..

stuff that would need to take the place of meds I currently take.

i.e. Garlic, Cinnamon.. yeah, it would "work"..

If hitching is a "Christian activity", does that make this a hymn?

Believing through all that self imposed hardship isn't Christian? <_<

:biglaugh:

Why didn't J.L. include the part where he pushed the counterfeit for years? And if the counterfeit is of the devil as

he proclaims, then who was he serving for 20+ years as he passed the counterfeits? By his own reasoning he was serving the devil.

JAL, above all things, loves to hear the cheer of the crowd. He'll do whatever it takes to get it. That's my opinion, anyway.

They must be in a serious state of denial, then, because it was VP who taught them this "law of believing" in the first place.

Most of them, if not all, still embrace this as truth. That is, with the exception of those that have completely started a new thing. These are just my own observations, I haven't researched this or anything.

It is curious why people would still turn to these ex-twi "leaders" for spiritual guidance or learning.

To answer your question, they believe that VP taught the "rightly divided Word" and that the ensuing Board of Trustees messed everything up. The offshoots see themselves as keeping the "Truth" alive the way VP intended it. They didn't leave TWI because they were disappointed with what was taught. They still see VP as the MOGFOT.

Regarding this "repetitive singing" some are discussing, I'm not sure if I've heard it although I go to a church where they sing contemporary music. I was listening to the radio yesterday and on came Bob Seger's "Night Moves". Talk about repetitive! I like that song, by the way, but he often repeats lyrics in his songs. That's fairly common in pop and country, is that what people are talking about?

On another topic, people are talking about "singing the Holy Spirit into the meeting". I think there is a difference between that and what modern worship leaders mean when they say they lead the congregation into the presence of God. The first implies that the congregation needs to get all "whooped up" to experience God. It's controlling in that it doesn't allow room for people's different experiences.

Leading people into the presence of God simply means to set a tone or atmosphere where people can be mindful of God's presence. It's up to the person to enter into that presence. Music is a great way to set that atmosphere. God relates to each person differently. Someone may experience unspeakable joy, others may experience profound grief. Perhaps they recently lost a loved one, or just received a bad medical report. Many times a person may experience absolutely nothing. That's okay too. These aren't things to be forced.

Raptured. I hope. Well.. either that equates, to the problem removed, or the problem fixed.

I don't know if I'm included in the problem, or the solution, yet..

"WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND HE IS US!!! (I think it was Pogo that said that).

Nevermind.

If Don bought out another library to stock Emporia... then he didn't know what he was doing, or they gave him only about $1.57 to buy books with.

I'm glad justice has been served and I think the operation was necessary. In the overall scheme of things, though, it doesn't mean much. Terrorism still exists; there are still plenty of people who hate the U.S., some of which are American citizens, and there still is much danger ahead for our country. I had the same reaction when the Berlin Wall fell. People at that time were talking about what a safer world we lived in since the Soviet threat had been neutralized. Were we safer? No. Tyranny just came in another form.

I don't mean in any way to demean the role and courage of our military. In fact I honor them. Nor do I underplay the importance of the mission itself because I think it was necessary. I'm just not rejoicing in the streets crying "victory!"

I hope this is appropriate for this forum. Advise if it is not, please.

Yeah Pausonne. As a matter of fact, you'll find him posting on the "Sing Along the Way" thread under the "About the Way" forum. I too would like to express my condolences for your loss.

Oh well, I guess it's like somebody here said; "I am becoming my parents". Hah! Who was that? Was that you Broken Arrow?

Yep! That was me!

Socks and Ted-I go to a large church . A few years ago our Senior Pastor wanted the church to be more culturally relevant and he wanted to reach out to people of all races. So we have the "Integrity Praise/Hosanna" and "Vineyard Music" songs that comprise a lot of modern Christian contemporary music. We also have Gospel, including Black Gospel, and we sing a few of the old hymns now and again.

While at first hearing someone might think that's too much of a hodge-podge to be effective, it works rather well. They don't try to do it all at one particular service.

No, "study hall" was always held in Wierwille Library. Wierwille was a library in name only as there were no books or study materials kept there. It was actually used as a meeting center. Johniam's right, there were few good books if any in Anderson Library.

Someone said a while back that Don Wierwille bought out another library's books to place in Anderson. It was an attempt to satisfy one of the the Kansas Board of Regents' requirements for accreditation. I don't know personally if that is true, but it's plausible.

No, "study hall" was always held in Wierwille Library. Wierwille was a library in name only as there were not books or study materials were kept there. It was actually a meeting center. When I was College Division in '75/'76, the Chapel was also used for meetings, mostly classes.

Johniam's right, there were few good books if any in Anderson Library. Someone said a while back that Don Wierwille bought out a library to get the books. It was an attempt to satisfy one of the the Kansas Board of Regent's requirements to be an accredited college. I don't know personally if that is true, but it's plausible.

I won't believe it until I see his long form death certificate.

Are you really Donald Trump? C'mon, you can tell us!

BA, hate to throw water but Good Seed did a C&W version of How Great Thou Art, plus I have a blues version from a Lutheran group called Bread for the Journey; Black gospel,and hard rock. btw the direct English version from the Swedish starts of O Mighty God.

First of all, it's a matter of my personal taste. I hope you don't think I was trying to say it was a bad thing. Good Seed, as I recall, didn't change the melody or the basic structure of the song. Just kind of "country-fied" it if my memory serves me correctly. As a matter of fact, Good Seed's version was the first one I heard. I haven't heard the other versions you referred to. The one I heard was from another contemporary group. Good kids, but they completely changed the structure. They, and some of the other young guys seem to like it so I guess it's cool. Personally I started to bang my head into the chair in front of me going, "why, why, why?" Then again, I have a lot of issues.

One thing I'm recalling now that's really funny about this... I remember even when IN TWI, we used to joke around about this section and change it - we would say "you know what killed that little boy? It was the bumper on the car going down the street at 45 mph"...

We used to say, "You know what killed that little boy? It was the red drapes on the window!"

Interesting thread. Frankly, I miss singing so many of those songs from the Sing Along The Way song books. My wife and I go to this church where they do what is called "praise singing", and I can't stand it. They have a little band up front, amplified of course, but, they don't perform for us, they play and we are supposed to sing with them. Well, that's kinda neat and all, but, the band is loud enough that you really cannot hear the crowd in church singing very loudly. The voices are encroached upon by the band. Plus, they have an overhead tv monitor for us to read doing the "follow the bouncing ball thing" like as in karaoke with the highlighted words. Personally, I like to hear the peoples' voices being the main event when singing with the Believers. And really, so many of the songs just seem boring to me with their modern "groovyness". But that's just me. The other thing they do though, which drives me nuts is that they keep repeating the last verse or chorus over and over and over as the holy hands come up, and I'm like Dude! Let's just finish this song cuz maybe the next one will be better! But no, on it goes.

I'm with you, Clay. And you're right, there's nothing wrong with it. That's the lastest "style" though. I like some of those songs, some I don't. I miss the choirs and pipe organs but these young guys probably wouldn't go for that. What drives me up a wall is when someone chooses to jazz up one of the traditionals, like "How Great Thou Art". The song is just fine the way it is, thank you very much. If you don't like the tune, write another song, don't ruin this one. Again, that's just my taste and some of those old hymns have blessed me a lot over the years.

I fear that I'm turning into my parents. I remember well the Beatles and my parents sneering at their "long hair".

One last thing. It blessed me to hear that sometimes your family gets together and sings some of those old songs. That is so cool. Sounds like you've got a great family.

I don't think society at large valued VP...he was a cult leader and most outside our sub-culture that knew of him...knew what he was....others were smart enough to stay away or just not care. We were a small specific society centered around a personality. When the personality was gone...the society fell apart. We may have called ourselves the "household" of God, but we were nothing more than the house that VP built on sand...IMO.

Add: And yes, I believe he was a bully.

Ah yes, but he was a crafty bully. As soon as he sensed people moving away from them he'd put on a nice guy front. Just enough to reel you back in. Then, just when you relax, zap! That's a typical ploy of a person that manipulates others. They'll give just enough of what you need or want to keep you around. Once they have you back, they resume the abuse.

Its like listening to mass confusion with a good mix of ADHD thrown in

He's already run two cults into the ground--what does it take to get through to this guy?

HAH!!

JAL is not a bible teacher. He was in the same messed up cult we were. He needs a good teacher to take him in hand.

I agree. He needs to take a back seat for several years and submit to a good, legitimate Bible teacher. His pride will not let him do that. It's sad.

..we made a lot of decisions in The Way that were based on sub-standard information.

That's putting it mildly!