Broken Arrow

Speaking of academics, which one of them decided we need to stop using BC and AD as year designators? Why the sudden move to start using BCE (before current era) and CE (current era) to replace BC and AD? I see it more and more in academic writings, and it bugs me. Seems to me before an effort is made to overthrow centuries of western tradition and practice, there should first be discussions and debates. But this BCE and CE stuff just started happening, all of a sudden, out of the blue.

I have no idea but I know what you're saying. Now everything has to be politically correct and BC means "before Christ" and AD is "anno domini", Latin for "Year of the Lord". I mean, who are we to force everybody to reckon time according to Christ's presence on earth? Why don't we do that with Buddha, or Mohammad, or when the world began? (I'm just articulating the argument, I don't really believe that.)

Not sure how many there really are of "we".......those who see wierwille as a fraud.

Offshoots everywhere STILL hold to the wierwille mystique and doctrine. Geer praises him.... Lynn praises him..... CFF praises him...... dozens of others!! Wierwille was subtle enough to NEVER get caught, or imprisoned. He went to his grave and his enablers and handlers want the control/money to keep flowing.

How many really have CONNECTED THE DOTS OF THE INDOCTRINATION?

Very few.

I've been running across people who may still think VP was correct in his teaching, but that he was full of himself in some other areas. It's hard to say, but people may be waking up. I think more people couldn't care less anymore.

We didn't get robbed or raped, or anything like that, but during my first trip to LEAD, we had a close call.

It was about 3 am in a desolate part of Texas and a trucker picked us up and was going to take us all the way to Clovis! Woopee!! My partner went to sleep in the bunk, and I just couldn't keep my eyes open. Soon the trucker pulled off to a truck stop, I told him to just drop us off at the ramp and he said, "Ya wanna go to Clovis, don't you?" That got my attention. When he stopped he got a little "snappy" with me and said he was disappointed that I wasn't talking to him to keep him awake and that he needed a few minutes of shut-eye. He gave me a couple bucks and told me to go sit in the diner and come back in an hour and said, "You might as well just let her keep sleeping." So, I woke her up and took her into the diner with me. Oh, he got really maaaaaad! He just buried his face into the steering wheel like he was trying to control himself from "blowing his stack". When we came back an hour later he was gone, but he left us our stuff. Both I and my partner believed the guy "had plans" for her. Even though nothing came of it, it scared both of us that it was such a close call and I was even more miserable the rest of the trip. We were stuck on the road until about 7:00 am the next morning.

Prior to that, my partner and I were very cold and we decided to go back to the diner for awhile. My partner looked much younger than she actually was and some people at 4am thought I was kidnapping a minor. "Watcha doing with the kid, boy?" We were in Texas. "You takin' that little girl across state lines?" I said she wasn't a minor. "Suppose I get the sheriff over here and let him decide that?" I'm thinkin', "Oh crap, I'm going to be put in jail by Sheriff Buford P. Justice! Won't JAL just love that? I can hear the lunchtime announcements already!" Soon she came out of the restroom and convinced the guy she was an adult and that we were from a Bible College hitching across country to go mountain climbing. That confused him even more. The guy settled down, but I still don't think he believed her.

Then I said something about wanting to get a ride out and some other guy said, "You let people get one look at her and you'll get a ride!" Other men with missing teeth began to guffaw "har, har, yuk, yuk!"(I might have only imagined the "missing teeth" thing). Now I start thinking, "Oh no! NOW I'm going to get my (rhymes with) glass kicked!" We felt safer on the freezing freeway where it was pitch black and drivers who couldn't see us would zip by us in their cars doing 70, 80 miles an hour. When it got light, we got a ride.

Maybe the trucker didn't have an agenda and really was just mad that I didn't talk to him or didn't trust him alone with her, but I don't think so and I'm glad I didn't have the chance to find out.

As we were driving along we came across another LEAD couple and had our driver pull over. It turns out they were picked up by a trucker who also pulled into a truck stop and flat out asked the female for sexual favors. She refused and he kicked them out of his truck.

My partner and I were getting to be friends but on the return trip we got in a big fight about who was doing "all the believing". She thought she was, and thus my fragile male ego was insulted, poor baby. We were so mad at each other that when we started hitching again a car pulled over and neither of us noticed. Then the driver called back and said, "You guys comin' or what?" I yelled her name, she still didn't know a car had pulled over and she angrily turned around and said, "What?" I pointed at the car and her eyes got big and she ran to the car. That was one of the funniest things I ever saw in the Corps. The guy took us all the way to the promised land of Emporia. I didn't speak to her for another two years! On the other hand she got over the whole thing and saw some humor in it. I was still mad about it two years later. Talk about male ego! Pretty pathetic on my part really.

She was good kid. I hope she's doing well.

1) vpw always paid for the best for himself. Fly COACH? No, First Class or his OWN PLANE.

No Wordwolf, you've got it all wrong! Ambassador One was a ministry asset, it was OUR plane we were told. Wierwille just got the USE of it. It wasn't HIS plane, you know. I imagine if any of us had asked, we could have used it ourselves for, say, camping, or whatever. I was told it was OUR plane. When I lived in Idaho, I thought it would have been cool if they would send Ambassador One to pick some of us up to go to the Rock. I mean, it WAS our plane, right? I suppose though we would never have learned as much about believing if we had done that.

I never heard of Dan Wilson. There was a recording in twi called Theophilus/Hope. Not sure if Theophilus was the name of the group or Hope, but lot of twi people seemed to own this record. It had a song called 'God fearing woman and a good Christian man' and a nice a capella version of that song 'Some glad morning'. Good jam. This group is now called 'Delighted in God'. I thought this 'Free life' song might have been from them. Good song.

The name of the group was "Hope". One of their members is my brother-in-law. It looks like you're saying that they now go by the name of "Delighted in God". Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that is not the case. "Delighted in God" would be a completely different group.

I can see the comparison between Ted Jerry Lee Lewis, maybe a little bit of Elvis, but I don't see any similarities between him and Roy Orbison at least music wise. It must have been someone young who compared Ted to Frank Sinatra. To anyone young, someone singing in front of a band without a guitar reminds them of Sinatra. In my opinion, that's where the similarity ends. I suppose Ol' Blue Eyes could have sung gospel if he wanted to, but he didn't. Can you imagine Sinatra singing "Thanks to Calvary", or "Let's All Go Down to the River"? It just wasn't his style.

The only other one I'd like to comment on is the comparison between Pressed Down and Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young. I agree but I think an even better comparison is between Pressed Down and Pure Prairie League. Oh yeah, Claudette and Aretha. To me it was obvious that Claudette was a fan of Aretha's at least at one time. Yeah, their styles are very similar and frankly I think Claudette was every bit as good. Aretha, though, knew the business a lot better.

My thoughts FWIW.

Exactly.

Bible debunkers have some pretty intelligent debunkers themselves .....and on it goes. . . you can have both intelligence and faith. It is pretty interesting to listen to bible debunkers questions and then hear those questions answered by some brilliant Christian apologists....to have their methods and approach addressed. I think if one is honestly asking these questions......that is the place to go. To the people answering the questions.

If it is just an agenda.....it isn't any different from what they think they are trying to debunk.

It gets pretty real! I am satisfied with the answers. :)

I would recommend C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. He was very intelligent (taught at Cambridge in England) and addresses many of the common issues with Christianity. Even if someone is not a Christian, I believe they will find this a very interesting read. Not a "Pie in the Sky", "bless you, bless you" type of book, and it won't insult your intelligence.

faith and intellect

i choose faith

Why not both?

And here I always thought it was the Yankees.

It is the Yankees. It's always the Yankees. Every cotton pickin' year it's those dad-nabbed pinstripes!

Moneyhands did go on LEAD, when it was run by Wierwille's Son in Law, John Somerville. Apparently Wierwille met with Somerville and devised a scenario where all the leaders would be taken captive and interrogated until they broke. None of the leaders made it through. I know that Moneyhands was one of them.

He also went LEAD when all the Corps Coordinators did in Christmas of '80. So did Lynn, Jenkinson, Bedard and some others.

The peeps look "cool" when you put them in a microwave oven for about twenty seconds..

So...it's finally come to that, eh?

I know we have talked about this before but thought it might be worth chatting . Pressed Down has been compared to the Eagles, Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, Seals and Croft. Ted to Elvis, Roy Orbison, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Frank Sinatra. Good Seed to Chicago and 3 Dog Nite. Dean Ellenwood to Herb Albert; Stevie Kay to Patsy Cline, Loretta Lynn, and Dolly Parton. Paul Vergilio to Sly and the Family Stone. Brian Bliss to Chris Tomlin. Would Way Productions evolved into styles such as Hillsong, Casting Crowns, Kutlass, Toby Mac, etc. had Wierwille, Martindale, and Rivenbark stayed out of music decisions?

Ken M. and Dean were in a secular band prior to coming into Way Productions. They had an offer for a recording contract but turned it down to come in the Corps. So, I think they may have been country rockers. Either one of them can play whatever style you want, even classical.

That must be why the scriptures say that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light? I don't get it? Even when I drinking the bathwater flavored kool-aid....I didn't understand why TWI had such an intimate knowledge of Satan. That was one of the things that once puzzled me.....now I understand it..... they just made it all up as they went along! :)

Of course! Dontcha see it? It's just all so simple keedz if you just believe everything I say. If I seem to contradict myself it's because you can't see the Word big enough.

Sadness for what it could have been. That's it! Why I couldn't put those few simple words together before, I don't know. That's my overriding sense of loss re The Way. Sadness for what it could have been. My eyes and heart saw something awesome with unlimited potential to help me and other people when I became involved; the top Way leadership also saw something with awesome potential. But we saw two entirely different things; polar opposite things. My eyes and heart saw liberation and knowledge and understanding; they saw control, power, authority, and money. Thank you for providing a moment of clarity for me this morning, Shaz.

While I empathize and feel sorry for your pain, I believe TWI was rotten from its inception and it only could have been what it turned out to be. What it turned out to be was what is was all along...if that makes sense.

"In Ohio there was a root, the rottenest root that you ever did see.

And the crabgrass grows all around and around...."

(Do they still sing that?)

i can't remember but they had some political visitor -- a senator -- to emporia when i was there

and i feel like the way and wierwillie were conservative

who did he go see at the white house at the ball ? it seemed to be a big deal

It was the governor that came to Emporia that year. Supposidely he was impressed with how efficiently he was treated. He was in and out in a matter of minutes. An incumbent state rep also lost his seat due to the Way C of E voting as a block. I think that was pretty much the high water mark for TWI's involvement in politics.

I also remember VP making a big deal about going to Reagan's inaugural and not shaking Reagan's hand. He said he didn't want to cause embarrassment to the President because VP was pegged as a cult leader. He really made himelf look like the caring one. Hmmm....You know, if you do something nice for someone that's one thing. But if you do something nice for someone AND THEN have to advertise it to others, it's rather narcissistic.

"What did Christendom ever do before TWI came along?"

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The literacy rate in the US is 99% of the total population

As of this minute the current population is 306,140,308

there is

One birth every.................................. 8 seconds

One death every.................................. 12 seconds

One international migrant every.................. 35 seconds

Net gain of one person every..................... 13 seconds

So that would mean 306,141 people in the US is illiterate

This is based on US census bureau data and the United Nations Development Programme.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_in_America_are_illiterate#ixzz1JmpzadqI

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Yes, that's right. 306,141 people in the United States, alone, will never know the joy that comes from studying the deep spiritual significance of the word "IF" for countless hours on end. It's heartbreaking, to say the least.

Cheer up Waysider! Those of us that know the truth about "if" must take the word "if" over the world. Presto! You now have a purpose that has nothing to do with your own needs, desires, or dreams. How freeing that is, "if" you know what I mean.

A funny Holy Spirit note on "proper emphasis." I was so worried about the way to pronounce "Jesus" because someone impressed upon me that devil spirits used the name Jesus and I could be calling in demons if I didn't say it correctly. . .

If you don't pronouce the word "Jesus" correctly you're calling in demons? Now that's just plain stupid! Talk about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel! Geesh!

What did Christendom ever do before TWI came along? Why, even saying the word "Jesus" wrong was getting us possessed. Forget the fact that different countries pronounce the name "Jesus" differently. I guess they way we pronounce it in English must have been the right one, huh? Everyone else on the planet is getting possessed, right?

Oh no...there's an "ultimate foe". Someone asked Karl Barth (I think it was him) what he thought was the greatest problem facing mankind, expecting a long treatise from a renown theologian. The answer came back and it was just 2 words. They were, "I am" (He wasn't talking about God being the great "I am").

I believe in angels, demons and all that stuff. But the greatest problem facing me is..."me me me"!

I understand what you are saying.

but isn't this one of the really big, difficult questions? What if you woke up one moment.. and found EVERYTHING you previously believed was just plain wrong.. what would you do?

my "beliefs" are insane.

I don't care if people label them yes, or no.. or nutty. Or if they agree.. I tend to support the idea of reincarnation. Is it right, or is it wrong?

If I can wake up with everything in the wrong place once, what guarantees that it won't happen again?

I just can't take it all that seriously..

I dunno. I'm intolerant, even as far as my own personal beliefs are concerned..

maybe, I'm just really, really screwed up here..

why have stability, when one can have all of "this" and more..

stability is really over-rated.

You've asked this on several occassions and I always answer that if I woke up one day and realized everything I believed was wrong, I would go "oops!", and then continue on my journey. It is not an earth-shattering event for me to be wrong. Believe it or not, it's happened before. I think some may believe I'm joking when I say this, which in a way I am, but I'm also serious. I'd rather be wrong than apathetic, seriously. At least if one is wrong they're looking past the material world and trying to find some meaning. To be apathetic though is a wasted life, at least in my opinion. I mean, what is there to look forward to if one is apathetic? Supper?

Right. I was just wondering what you thought about it if anything.

They spoke in a highly competitive manner about who was going to get he biggest and best and most bejeweled crowns. It really creeped me out...I like to think I would continue to try my best to live by The Golden Rule, regardless of what may or may not lie beyond.... and not beat myself up so bad when I fail to do so. For me, that last part has always been the toughest.

If your question is, would I as a Christian continue to do what I do even if there were no reward, the answer would be yes. If you're asking if I would still be a Christian even if there were no hope of eternal life, then I would have to say there would be no Christianity. Eternal life is too central of a theme to Christianity to do so.

I can see where Waysider is coming from.

Christianity's big selling point is eternal life. This is what fuels the Christian engine, if you will.

Many of the atrocities done by Christians--the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, to name a few--have been done in the name of loving people and wanting them to have eternal life.

So, what if that engine never existed? Would Christians continue loving their neighbor and preaching forgiveness?

Remember both are tied to eternal life:

We love because God so loved the world...

We forgive because we remember how much God has forgiven us...

Would they be as committed? Would Christiananity spread as far and as fast as it did?

It's, however, an interesting thought experiment: pull the eternal life block out of the Jenga tower of Christianity. Does the whole tower collapse?

SoCrates

No...Waysider is asking that if there were no promise of eternal life, would one still be a Christian. Who is going to say that they won't love their neighbor or offer forgiveness?

Nevetheless, I don't think Waysider was being glib in posting the song. A lot us had said if there were no resurrection of the dead then, "...let us eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we shall die." I went as far as to say that while I may try to be a hedonist, I would more likely be the guy crashing everyone's party going, "What's the use? Everything is meaningless!" Waysider's song was simply illustrating in a slightly humorous way what a lot of people feel. That is, "no resurrection...no meaning". Not that the song is hymn or anything.

some notes about how hymns lyrics and tunes work...

lyrics are just poems, and many authors are poets, not music composers. When matching lyrics to tunes, you count the number of syllables in each phrase.

Amazing Grace, for instance, is 8-6-8-6 . "amazing grace, how sweet the sound (8), which saved a wretch like me (6), I once was lost but now I'm found (8) was blind but now I see (6)." This sequence was called "common meter" because it was a common lyric meter. There are lots of hymn lyrics written in this meter, and lots of tunes written in this meter. Song leaders and pastors did- and still do (as I do)- freely mix and match tunes and words to find a match that the people know and like. Sometimes a poem sat mostly unused for literally 50-100 years until a tune came along that helped it become popular.

Writing a new lyric/song in any commonly-used meter is an easy way to introduce it to a congregation- just use a tune they already know. I've tried my hand at writing new verses now and again, with mixed results, because I'm not by nature a poet.

Fascinating! I never knew this, thanks! What do you think of the new verse that Chris Tomlin wrote to Amazing Grace? He changes the meter as you probably know.

Speaking of Bob Richards, I recall that he was exposed to twi in some way. Maybe he was taking pfal or something and either LCM or VP dissed him about something. After that he was gone. LCM said "too many Wheaties". If they did something like that to Hayes Gahagan...just wondering.

In the fall of 1978 I lived in Columbia, MO and we all had to help this guy who was running for state rep. Went door to door for the guy. He lost, but during that same time we heard about similar political activity in Kansas where a twi believer was running for office. Some doors just never seemed to open for twi people.

I think the person in Kansas you're referring to may have won. I could be wrong though. Anyway, were you around when Bobby Richards spoke at a Corp week? I don't recall there being so much a rift as much as a lack of interest on Richards' part. I heard he was given the tapes of PFAL and after a long time of not listening to them, they asked for them to be returned which he did. Anyway, sorry to derail the thread, now, back to our scheduled program.

I realize some folks here are Christian and some no longer are. With that is mind, feel free to adjust the verb tense (past or present) as you deem applicable.

So.... what if the batteries weren't included? What if everything about Christianity remained the same EXCEPT for the afterlife part? (ie: No promise of an afterlife, just things that apply to life in the here and now.) Is/was that a "deal breaker" as they say?

Please, no Sunday School lessons. Just a simple "yes/no/I'm not sure" and a brief explanation of why (or why not)

One problem, Waysider. If you take out the afterlife, you have no Christianity...or Judaism for that matter. If you take out the afterlife, the Gospels, in particular the "Sermon on the Mount", make absolutely no sense. Why be meek, or forgiving, or anything Christ taught? He taught things in light of there being a higher power and a higher authority to answer to someday.

The Apostle Paul says that if there is no afterlife he would have been a hedonist ("let us eat, drink and merry, for tomorrow we die".) Me? I would want to be a hedonist, but to be truthful, I would be an existentialist. While everyone else was partying I would be the guy in the corner going, "What's the use? There's no purpose!" :( I kind of border on that anyway, to my own dismay.