Broken Arrow

Why didn't the L.E.A.D. participants simply use those MountainTop checks?

Who says we never tried?

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this lately but VP wasn't really a "Dr.".

(Just in case anyone was still wondering)

Do you think that Dr. Pepper was really a doctor? What about Dr. Seuss?

quote: I recall him saying that if the Board of Trustees would get it together he could believe to be healed.

I don't recall this; did he say it to way corps only? All I remember was the 2 SIT alerts.

Geer quoted him as saying that in Passing of a Patriarch.

quote: Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. How did yours get broken? Did you stop getting prayers answered, or have you just followed the crowd and decided pfal CAN'T be the word of God because VP wasn't perfect?

Oh, but it is very broken. How did mine get broken? How did my what get broken? As far as your question, "did you stop getting your prayers answered....?" No, not really. I mean there were some prayers God didn't answer like I wanted Him to, but I had prayers answered. Much the same as when I was involved in the Methodist Church, God answered prayers then too. Now, as far as the rest of your "either or" question, "...did I just follow a crowd....?" That's a good question. It's not very well put and it exposes your deceit, but it's a good question. Let's see, I definitely followed a crowd when I got into TWI because I had friends that were in. I definitely went along with things while in because I wanted to be liked. There came a time when I had a major moral failure, and I realized I was in great need of help. Especially after my wife of 10 years chose to end our marriage and demand I move out of the house. My daughter was 9 years old. In the face of this failure and ruin, I didn't claim a verse in the Bible and say, "I've been forgiven!" "The past doesn't matter!" "There is no condemnation!" No, for the first time in years I asked God for help and he met me where I was and healed me. I didn't do that in TWI, I learned to claim a verse, or focus on what I wanted and make sure my needs and wants were parallel and all that crap as if I knew better than God what I needed. This time, I cried out to a Father and he reached for me. Today I'm in my right mind, I'm secure in my own sexuality, I'm remarried, and I have a very very good relationship with my daughter who will be 25 next month. So, if I did follow a crowd, I didn't stay out because of a crowd. I stayed out because I found my life to be incomplete in TWI. It was only later I found out about the sexual exploits and dishonesty of V.P. Oh, and the verses I earlier quoted became more real to me then they had ever been. It's a partnership with God, it's not me managing my own sanctification.

Maybe that's the same reason the Corps was shamed in '83 for not attending Corps Week. It just didn't jive with the teaching of TWI if the ministry's leaders couldn't afford to drive 3 days to HQ every year.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to defend TWI and their practice of changing words. I was explaining that I didn't think TWI was the group that invented the words to "How Firm a Foundation". Then again, maybe they did. I really don't know. But it is plausible that someone else wrote those words and simply put it to the tune we recognize as a Christmas Carol and TWI just printed that.

Waysider, not to be nit-picky (which means I'm going to be nit-picky), but the song where the words were changed from a "wretch like me" was "Amazing Grace", not "How Great Thou Art".

quote: I would really love to be able to genuinely discuss scripture with you, but sadly, we really do not share a common faith. That breaks my heart.

I said earlier that we are not going to connect. When you posted (wherever that was) that you don't believe you were Christian in twi you lost all credibility with me. I will read your posts, but your premises I don't agree with. I think that anybody who SIT in session 12 (or anywhere else, for that matter) is born again of God's spirit and is going to be in the gathering together. I know you don't believe that, but hopefully we'll laugh at this stuff someday.

So, you don't think someone can fake speaking in tongues? Even Wierwille said in The Way Living in Love that he faked it when some people tried to lead him into it (claims he spoke in Greek and then Hebrew). What prevents a demon mimicking a language that we don't understand? Do you think that every class instructor was qualified enough to know if a tongue was genuine or fake?

There have been others who have claimed they faked speaking in tongues while in TWI and it went undetected for years.

I also think it rather sad that you come to a site like this and then state that as far as your concerned someone has no credibility because they claim they did not receive the new birth in TWI. Frankly, I find it hard to believe when someone tells me they were led into the new birth as a result of TWI teaching. Yet, I don't bring their credibility into question. This is an arrogant attitude on your part.

songbooks-

When they came out with the brown one, we were instructed to destroy the blue one, for legal purposes I'm sure. I continued to see blue books for years.

For awhile, the limb leader in CT was singing some song to the tune of 'Take me out to the Ballgame"-It turned into a huge reproof from HQ about singing the correct tune, and not being such a rebel.

I could only scratch my head , wondering why they changed "How Firm a Foundation" to the tune of 'Oh Come all ye Faithful"-making it the 'way corps anthem'.

No big. I'm just trying to hit 3000 posts before the end, for no good reason.

I don't think it was TWI that changed the words. It was fairly common in the 19th century for songwriters to write a song and use an existing song as a tune. In our time we would consider that an infringement, but not in those days. For example, I understand the "Star Spangled Banner" was written to the tune of a British song. Waysider might know more about this practice than than I do.

Ol Vic didn't care about the songs either.. It took the copyright holders getting a hold of TWI and asking for $$ that set them straight.. Too bad all the guys Vic stole his PFAL material from didn't do the same..

I heard from somewhere that Bill Gaither was one of the people that got upset one of his songs was being used without his permission (The Family of God). Does anyone know if that's really true?

been checking out songbooks from TWI, CFFM, S&TF, CR&F- not more than 100 hymns, maybe 125. Why so few when hymnals then had at least 300-400 and now are usually close to 1,000 with paperback supplements, and why no music(piano/organ scores)? Most of them are found in Hymns for the Family of God, Celebration Hymnal, Renew:Hymnas and Songs for Blended Worship, not counting denominational hymnals from the 1950's up to the present. You mean only Rhoda and Dorothy had the only keyboard accompliments, but no one else was allowed this? The above were only lyrics, but gave no authors nor composers, or tunes. So what gives? Anyone know the answer to this?

Because TWI wants to change the words and copywrite laws prohibit that, and TWI doesn't want to spend the money it takes to get permission?

Don't be sorry. You said it very well. :)

quote:

I know that VP wondered late in his life where his believing had failed; why he was in that situation, but I doubt that he himself thought of believing as a 'raygun' in every day stuff.

That's not the way I remember it. I recall him saying that if the Board of Trustees would get it together he could believe to be healed. He blamed the situation on someone else.

VP didn't think he was entitled to demand from God like God was his subordinate, he was promoting confidence toward God rather than groveling and sniveling like he saw many people do during his upbringing.

Well, he never said the words the God was his subordinate, but he definitely taught that. He taught God as a principle to be applied. "Know what's available, How to Receive...etc." Have that recipe correct and "presto" God grants your prayer. You know who was sniveling? Us. We were doing exactly what we made fun of. We said we were coming boldly before the throne while all the time wondering if we were believing enough, or was it available, do I know what to do with it after I've got it. What's the difference. VP's doctrine was poison.

why is it, just about the only people who accept these counterfeit bills.. are those in offshoots?

it's.. "bills(counterfeit) of gawd.. printed, more accurately than those of the first century.."

Because them offshoot leaders have to make a living somehow! I mean, garsh. If they can't run an offshoot, they would have to get a real job and fantasyland would have to close. That would mean they would have to face the fact that, really, they're not so special. No one really relies on their every word, and the rest of the world doesn't really care much about them.

One center of reference for truth? How do you get something as big as "the truth" squeezed into one little box? No, I think you find bits and pieces of truth all around you if you keep your mind open to possibility and change. And, it's not a constant. It evolves and grows, much like a tiny seed grows into a mighty Redwood. (It's always a Redwood throughout the entire process. It simply takes on differing forms.)

Some might argue that Jesus is the only truth because of what he said in John 6:14. But, if one is to interpret that verse as such, it follows suit that he must be the only Way, as well. So, then, The Way (ministry) had no business calling itself The Way, if that verse is to be interpreted literally.

The purpose of believing there is only one constant truth, is to allow the mind to cope with conflicting ideas. The human mind does not like to entertain two opposing thoughts at the same time so it reaches a sort of compromise between the two. That's called resolving cognitive dissonance. PFAL provided that compromise. It provided a way to ease that uncomfortable feeling, as long as one was willing to forgo critical thinking in exchange for commitment to PFAL prescribed doctrine. Critical thinking and careful reconsideration is the antidote. For some people, the cure is more painful than the ailment.

I believe there are absolute truths that are constant. They only seem to evolve because we change over our years. You say the human mind does not like to entertain two opposing thoughts at the same time. Are you referencing some scientific study, or is that your opinion? Is that just us western thinkers? I'm not being contentious, here, I would really like to know. The reason I'm asking is because I've learned that certain truths that appear to us to be opposing each other are in fact real at times. We humans often think very linear. We often fail, or are unable to grasp everything that is going on around us. Moreover I think there are some schools of thought that recognize two opposing thoughts can both be true, like the "ying" and the "yang". Then again, I may not fully understand the concept of "ying" and "yang".

I dunno. Can't a mature mind deal with conflicting ideas, without figuratively going off the deep end?

Why is it so urgent, and IMPORTANT.. that everything one perceives.. fits into finely defined and crafted cabinets..

Why is it so important? Because it scares us to think otherwise. That puts us out of control, and out of our push-button world. Things could change at any second and we can't stand the thought that we will not be ready for it. That's what I think, anyway.

Chockfull said: "Reality is such a great repellant for arrogance"

I love that quote!

quote:

The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.

The Holy Spirit takes the place of Christ in the Word in us.

It's obvious that VP meant BODILY absent, not totally absent, and he IS! He told his disciples that it was expedient that he go away. The word that takes the place of the absent Christ includes Jesus, in fact, he's the lynch pin; no Jesus, no salvation. No access to God. No gift of holy spirit. No miracles, no healings.

VP was exhorting us as Christians to get in 'proactive mode' and get ready to go, stand, and speak God's word rather than sit on their butts like the Christians he saw. The world is always coming up with ways to scare Christians out of speaking the word.

In Acts, Peter and John were told not to speak or teach in Jesus' name. This is STILL the devil's will for God's people. They weren't told not to read their bibles. They weren't told not to fellowship together. They weren't told not to pray. They weren't told not to ABS. They were told not to speak.

I think the real aim of the advanced class was to give us the tools to walk with God when speaking the word to others, new people or grads. THAT'S the part that didn't connect. I wasn't around when the word supposedly moved so powerfully in California, New York, Indianapolis, etc. Some of you guys were there. Was there ANYTHING different that stands out? Did the increased numbers just cause everybody to become complacent?

No, I don't agree with you (shocked?). Seriously, Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible is different from the Jesus Christ taught in TWI. Moreover, they way we were taught in TWI to relate to Messiah is different than how it's taught in the Bible. TWI, at least for me, was not a true Christian experience. The same is true with the Holy Spirit. There are others who may be able to be more biblical in their explanation. All I can tell you is that I experienced both, and the Christ in the Bible and the Christ taught in TWI are as different as day is from night. It made a big difference in my life. Of course, I don't expect you or anyone else to drop something you've believed for decades just because I said so. It took me a long time to work this through, not that I've mastered anything.

Today, I have no use for the Advanced Class or anything else taught by TWI. I am grateful, though, that in TWI I learned the order of the books of the Bible. That is the only thing I learned that is of any worth.

I think a lot of people were surprised at how unqualified they were when they left Wayworld. Former Limb leaders that used to jump on our cases about believing God suddenly found themselves in the unemployment line with nothing to show for themselves except they were with TWI for 10 years.

No experience with anything else. Does TWI even pay into social security? I'm pretty sure they don't pay into unemployment. If they don't, then these staffers find themselves being out of the SS system for many years so nothing has been saved up for retirement. Stuff you don't consider when you're 23, 24 years old.

Of course, some of them just started an offshoot and started making even more money. Woe unto them if they ever need to stop doing that for health reasons or whatever.

I remember one time a Limb leader's wife complained about how little her husband was making. Her claim was that he was a college graduate, very intelligent, and in the secular realm could make a lot more money. Eventually he was realeased by TWI. He really is a pretty intelligent person. He works as a manager for a small company and his wages are not impressive. Nothing wrong with that, I just think the expectations were much higher. At least he didn't start an offshoot. The point is, TWI had us all thinking we were all qualified for these "worldly" organizations when in truth we had no clue about how things worked. Those of us who were low level leadership had some idea, but even we were in a sort of dreamland.

I read it somewhere? He did not like him. It would not be too difficult to look it up and the writings are online if you are interested in them. Irenaeus had plenty to say about these guys...and none of it was forgiving, kind, charitable, or subtle. The same group of churches Simon started were still around when Iranaeus was around. Simon had students and followers. It was huge. Iranaeus was a student of Polycarp....Polycarp was with the Apostle John, so we are not talking about a long time here. It would be like your father passing on something your grandfather told you.

Then again, I could have it mixed up. :)

John Piper does a really nice job refuting the prosperity gospel...some here may disagree with him, but I think there are some good points in here. He makes a few leaps, but I identify with what he says.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jLRue4nwJaA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thank you, Geisha. I'll check that out. :)

Now this is a bit of a digression, but not really "off topic" as this thread currently stands.

Hmm...I really don't remember this "absent Christ" stuff. To the best of my recollection, I heard it here. But no doubt a heap of you will tell me what session it appeared in, or some such. Was I actually asleep in class every time that bit came past? Was it more of a VPW thing than an LCM thing?

I remember if from the PFAL Book. The quote goes something like, "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and the spirit takes the place of...."(and I can't remember what it said after that). I'm not sure what session it's in. It's in other writings as well.

I know. :)

Peter told Simon, "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God . . . I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity" Pretty harsh words. If one believes we are harsh here about VP....check out Irenaeus sometime...I think he called Simon the father of all heretics.

Irenaeus said that? He lived about 100 years after Simon. Is this something you learned in a Church History course? I find that very interesting.

quote:

For Bible fans it's Jesus Christ. For PFAL fans it's vp. After all, vp said "the word" takes the place of the absent Christ. And what is "the word"? the expanded literal translation according to usage [by every true-blue follower of the way] is the interpretation of the Bible as taught by vp in PFAL.

You could say that about ANY Christian denomination. "Bible fans"??? If Jesus isn't absent, then WHERE DOES HE LIVE? No BS, give me a street address.

quote: furthermore, the CONSISTENT failure by folks to achieve the promises of PFAL is probably one of the biggest reasons for many to not only doubt God's power and existence but even more so - and i might add rightfully so - the validity of PFAL and the integrity of vp.

What failure? I get prayers answered all the time. You?

Well, for starters Jesus lives in those who are born again, "Christ in you..."; He is also with us, "I am with you always" and "I will never leave you or forsake you", he is seated at the right hand of the Father; He is with us through the Holy Spirit; He is in the presence of God making intercession for us; the list goes on. One misses out on a lot if they believe Jesus is not present. It's from this Jesus is absent mindset that people like VP and LCM can consider themselves "The men of God for our day and our time". Why is that? Because if you take Jesus Christ out of the equation, then the Kingdom is solely in hands of men with nothing to be accountable to. Tyranny rules. Corinthians, as you know, says "We are ambassadors for Christ...." Yet in TWI we knew very little of who Christ was. How could we then be his ambassadors? We couldn't talk to him, we couldn't even talk about him that much. If you did, someone would soon come along (like me), correct you and say that The Word was the center of Christianity. But Christianity is more than stark axioms, it is about relationship. Some may say that Jesus' sacrifice merely gave us access to the Father. True enough, but let's not forget that Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by him. We always thought that was simply discussing the new birth but Jesus says no one actually can come to the Father but through him. Here's the rub with TWI teaching, Jesus Christ is absent, the holy spirit is an entity that can actually be operated by us. The result being that we men are in control not only of this world, but of God himself. He'll answer any prayer we throw up as long as we're focused and we believe.

Acts chapter 8 gives us a great example of a true and false conversion.....The Ethiopian Eunuch and Simon the Sorcerer....no wonder VP said Simon was saved.

I think he got this from v. 13 where it says, "Simon believed and was baptized."

I want to be a "they".

I think you may have misspelled a word.

:o

quote: You know, the Beatles were seed boys. So were the Dave Clark 5 I think. Also, Barbara Streisand and any other secular musician you liked unless they were a country singer.

Dave Clark Five??? Bits and Pieces, Catch us if you can, Glad all over, oh yeah, Awww chaquita! Whatever. They were like Herman's Hermits and Freddy and the Dreamers: NOT THE BEATLES! Country? I heard that Loretta Lynn and John Denver were seed. I threw Europe 72 on the fire one year. You can take Salem out of the country, BUT....

Freddie and the Dreamers? dreamers?What were they "dreaming"? We were taught in the Advanced Class that dreaming was "off the Word", yet here is Freddie promoting it, and that laugh!...hmmm. And Herman's Hermits AH-HAH! "Something tells me I'm into something good"? Just what was that "something"? Uh-huh, bet you never thought of that before?