Broken Arrow

I was watching a documentary about a battle early in the Vietnam War. An entire division got pinned down by the North Vietnamese and the Americans called in an airstrike. The code word was "Broken Arrow! Broken Arrow!" and the fighters came in with their ordinance. I thought it sounded cool.

Also, there was a movie called "Broken Arrow" with John Travolta and (I think) Nicholas Cage. The two are chasing bad guys who just stole a couple of nukes from an aresenal. Cage decides to fire a pistol at the bad guys. Travolta, who was driving, and just like a tour guide says, "Please do not fire at the thermo-nuclear weapons." Thought that was funny.

In the mid-90s.....Martindale's answer to college was...(drum roll)

....have your high school kids ask their GRANDPARENTS for the money.

It just cracks me up that he said that. When I was a young man going into the Way Corps, Martindale's line then was that, "parents are responsible to provide an education for their children." Now the folks going in are of the age to be one of my children, but wait. I went through the WC, he knows I'm destitute because I've been (hypothetically) working on staff for 25 years. So he switches his line now to grandparents being responsible for a kid's education. Those, by the way, would be the same people who, if I did what he said, paid for my education. Now they're going to pay for my kid's education? A lot of our parents are retired now, they can ill afford to put a kid through college. Guess they should have believed God better.

(Broken Arrow now steps down from his soap box and begins to engage in mirth and revelry)

Why is it when we talk about Wierwille, we so often feel compelled to compare him to Biblical figures? He wasn't a Biblical figure. In fact, aside from the fact that he used the Bible as a backdrop, there was nothing especially Biblical about him at all. Same thing with incidents we experienced in The Way. Why do we compare them to incidents that happened in the Bible? We don't live in Biblical times. We live in a completely different time and culture. Me, personally, I think VPW was more like Harold Hill from the Music Man than anyone in the Bible....except, of course, for Wierwille's unhappy ending.

And he didn't know the territory!

I was wondering the same basic things, Ham. Only my way of putting it:

The same question can be posed to you and me. That is, why do we try to convince Johniam? None of us, I don't think are fooled as to whether anyone's going to have an epiphany. If that's what we're trying to accomplish we may as well give up. People can change their opinions, but not typically when they're being attacked and both sides have been attacking the other. Perhaps this feeds Johniam's perception of himself as the "defender of the faith" where he alone is standing against infidels in the name of all that is good. Maybe someone will turn, and if just one person turns, it will have made it all worth it. Or maybe he just feels disempowered and arguing here makes him feel important.

We have less than holy motives ourselves though Ham will probably claim he is just an observer. What benefit are we getting out of all this? We wouldn't be involved in this discourse unless we were. Why do we keep coming back with "clever" argument after "clever" argument knowing it's falling on deaf ears? I doubt that it has anything to do with caring about Johniam's well being.

So many assumptions here.

just wonder.. why do you want to convince ME? Who is trying to stop you? maybe this is the only audience you can quote that much bible?

Ham, you wrote this in response to my saying that Phil Donahue was a "jerk".

[quote name='Ham' date='09 March 2011 - 12:33 AM' timestamp='1299648795' post='524301'

How do you know? Maybe he was just being honest. As in..

if you are the cat's meow here..

lets see YOU walk on water..

I dunno. Fair question, to me..

You are correct, I have no right to refer to Phil Donahue, or any other human being as a "jerk", or a "bigot", or any other slur.

quote

Donahue was not a liberal Christian bigot. Donahue was not a Christian at all. He was just a jerk. Maybe, "consumate liberal bigot" would be more fitting.

Sleep it off and LOOK at what I actually posted. I did not say "Christian bigot", I said CHRISTIANITY bigot. He is, IMO, a liberal who is a bigot who targets Christianity. There. That spell it out for you?

Sorry for the oversight, you're right, you said "Christianity bigot" and I quoted you saying "Christian bigot", and yes, thank you for the correction. You must have had nothing to say in response to any of the other things I wrote in that post.

sadly some of his descendants choose to roll in his iniquity..

It's called...denial.

Even in my glazed-days.......I REFUSED to swallow this.

Never endorsed it.

Never taught it.

Never promoted it.

The first time I heard it was in the Renewed Mind Class, and it bothered me, I thought it was weird. When I graduated high school and went into the College Division, I felt bad because I didn't like Wierwille; he bugged me. I thought he was obnocious. I never had been around him before. But, after a year of indoctrination I was buying it all hook, line, and sinker. I was weeping calling him my "father in the Word". Mind you, I never had a personal conversation with the man my whole 15 years in TWI...scared of him. Yet, for some reason I had all these "gooshy" feelings about Wierwille. I believed he was The Man of God.

It's amazing what a difference a year of "maturity" can make. I went from reading the man perfectly as a con, to worshipping him and calling him my father. Personally, I think I was starving for a father figure and fatherly affirmation and I would do anything to get even an illusion of it. Sad sad sad.

Sorry you're not feeling well. Hope you feel better soon dabob.

quote: I can't deny some of the nutty anti-social behavior and tendencies, the trendiness of themes and rhetoric and posturing but nothing where anyone would or went on the attack. It just never happened. I don't know anyone that I knew then or now who would have done such a thing.

You can't just start arresting people for what they "might" do. Even the policy of having to register as a sex offender has hurt people disproportionately. Soliciting a prostitute requires those convicted to register as a sex offender, but everybody just assumes that all sex offenders are pedophiles. Nobody in twi ever blew up an abortion clinic.

Who is saying anything about arresting people, and how did sex offenders and pedophiles get into this conversation? We're talking about whether TWI had violent tendencies. Actually, we were talking about the lack of taste a restaurant showed in comparing their food to the poison kool-aid drunk in the Jonestown massacre.

quote: What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it,

It's none of your business how anyone spends THEIR OWN money.

Really? Being the unemployed business tycoon that I am, even I know that publically traded organizations are required to submit an annual financial statement to their stockholders. Furthermore, ever try to get a substantial loan from a bank without showing them a financial statement? Good luck. I've seen many companies try, they don't get very far. So, if one wants to do business with an organization it is commonplace to ask for an accounting of how the money is spent. Of course, that same company can refuse to disclose the information, unless they are publically traded. In that case, an individual has a right to refuse to have any dealings with said organization.

Doubtless you're going to give me the standard line that if you don't trust the organization you shouldn't be involved with them anyway. Asking for an accounting is not distrust, it's just prudent. I think the Bible has something to say about putting our complete trust in men.

quote:

Rev. Billy Graham taught the gospel of Jesus Christ to MILLIONS.

You don't think he charged money for this? Like I said, if VP is the guy on the street corner, you say he has no impact.

Graham did not charge people to come to his meetings, at least not the one I went to. I'm sure he gets money from somewhere, but not from the attendants, not that that has anything to do with anything. As far as VP and his "impact", put him on the street corner, radio, television, in front of a large meeting, and the truth of the matter is, VP had very very little impact.

I recall channel surfing once during the 80s. Donahue, the consumate liberal Christianity bigot, was grilling Orel Roberts because he (OR) charged money at his hospital. Orel says "it's kinda hard to pay electric bills without money". Then Donahue holds the mike up to some guy who says "yeah, you make a lot of money in the faith business, don't you"?

Donahue was not a liberal Christian bigot. Donahue was not a Christian at all. He was just a jerk. Maybe, "consumate liberal bigot" would be more fitting.

All hail the green frog!

I have experience with CFFM. One book on cults called 'Youth, brainwashing, and the extremist cults' quotes a minister saying that cults are the unpaid bills of the church. This means that cults (spinoffs, offshoots, etc.) wouldn't exist if the church was taking care of people properly.

I used to believe that but not anymore. IMO, people start spin-offs because they want to be the top dog. People follow because the spin-off offers a shortcut to something fantastic (the more abundant life, inner peace, sense of meaning, material prosperity the list is vast).

um i don't know -- i think you might be seeing the world through a glass eye

He sees his life "going from generation to generation causing the Mystery to be lived"? What does that even mean?

Seems like we might be talking past one another on this thread......

Okay, I see what your're saying. VP was equating TWI involvement and all its activities with the whole of Christendom. Pretty pathetic, really. Once again, he stole that idea from someone else.

I saw all sorts of these theories and reports around the time of the bicentennial. In fact, the now defunct Liberty Lobby was notoriously active in constructing and disseminating such theories. Wierwille, you may or may not know, had direct ties to Liberty Lobby. A lot of the conspiracy ideas that Wierwille lead us believe came to him by revelation actually came from The Spotlight, Liberty Lobby's newsletter. Never saw any proof that those things Wierwille was promoting were true, though. Still not seeing any, for that matter.

Weren't they nazi's, or at the very least, anti-semitic? Liberty Lobby that is.

http://www.cffm.org/newsletters/dload/nl-03-11.pdf

i'm just wondering why i don't understand that "logic"

that's one reason i'm not exactly welcome on that way corps grad forum because i tried to talk about this

oh well

That's just insane, yet all too common from what I've seen. If a victim speaks out against their abuser, people in their insanity find a way to blame the abuser. I mean, just listen to that, "You shouldn't say anything because you're hurting the children and grandchildren." No, he abused you, you're telling the truth, and that is what is hurting the children and grandchildren, not you. I hope you keep telling your story.

BTW, are SOWERS and CFFM the same thing?

Because CFFM is based on VPW and his offspring, and they must sanitize him to have even an appearance of legitimacy. This way they can blame the way international's problems on Craig and Rosie then have a nice little haven for ex-wayfers that can come, be casual, and carry on Vic's legacy. From my experiences attending the fellowship that is close to me they just want some bible and others to fellowship with. Besides SOWERS I really have nothing bad to say about them except they sanitize Victor Paul Wierwille into a great man.

If they're embracing TWI doctrine then they're drinking from the same poisonous well and trying to get others to do the same. Give it time.

Another thing. Just as a rule of thumb, if you're ever involved with a group of people that actually think they can square off with the U.S. government in an armed conflict, run like Hell.

He married a woman who was targetted by Ted Patrick himself. Patrick was seen on her street late in the 78/79 ministry year. I believe that was also the time period that Monte Pelto was kidnapped. FBI sure didn't do anything to stop THAT kind of activity. Hmm.

Ted Patrick, as you know, didn't work for the FBI. He was a "hired gun" so to speak. He'd kidnap and brainwash your children for a fee.

My point is, Wierwille made the claim and offered no substantiation. Maybe there were agents, I dunno. I would be disappointed if the FBI or some federal agency didn't at least give TWI a look see. Wierwille didn't know either, he was grandstanding, making himself look important.

The ironic thing is is that in Karl Kahler's book, The Cult that Snapped, he showed where there really was an ammo dump at TWI at one time. Of course, one has to evaluate the creditility of his source as well.

Reminds me of the movie, The Robe. Richard Burton and I think Jean Simmons are walking away and a crazed Caligula hysterically yells after them, "They're going to a better kingdom! They're going to a better kingdom!"

. . . and we're throwing dice again.

Right, that's the real world whether we want to face that or not. I don't know about you, but I never did get to the point where "I know that I know that I know." My experience is that no matter which path one chooses there is an element of the unknown and the unsure. Some, well, quite a few folks, think that "Pascal's Wager" is a statement of doubt. I don't. I think it's honest. I don't believe it's something to rest my entire faith on, but I've found it helpful.

I can't believe I spent all that time changing light bulbs, staightening rows of chairs, placing silverware perfectly on a table, picking cigarette butts from the sidewalk, and directing people to where they should sit at a meeting. Still, after all that "training" I wasn't able to counsel someone on how to raise their children. Go figure. My holy spirit dove descended toward my W.O.W. pin, too, and I wore my name tag on the right. I just don't understand it.

If someone lives their life full of bitterness, hatred, jealousy and all kinds of basic "yech", and at the end of all things finds out there is an afterlife, "oops!". They've just wasted a lot of time, maybe even their entire life. On the other hand, if someone fills their life with good things such as compassion, love, peace, patience, and faith (as opposed to anxiety), and they come to end of all things and find out there is no God, or afterlife, what have they lost?

The point is, why should one waste their time in bitterness and doubt when there is a better way to live this life? We have absolutely nothing to lose by embracing a life of peace and oneness with God. (Sorry about the cliche)

This argument is known as, "Pascal's Wager" named after a French theologian and philosopher by the name of Blaise Pascal. I think he lived in the 1600's.