Broken Arrow

So I ask you, did VP ever prove that the entire KJV was without error or contradiction?

Did he or anyone else ever show how the entire Bible "fit" together perfectly?

A few more observations before I get off my soapbox:

1) VP and most other fundamentalists do not state which Bible they are referring to when they say it "must be perfect because God is perfect."

So the question to ask them is, "Which canon of the scripture is inerrant?"

2) Why is it so important that the scriptures be "perfect"?

Many people find value, inspiration, etc. from scriptures in spite of the various viewpoints or contradictions found in it, like the different perspectives of the gospel writers.

Cheers!

Pen

I'm not a V.P. defender, but in my recollection V.P. said that no translation was the inerrant Word of God. He said the Word of God as it was originally given is inerrant. Of course, he considered himself to be the authority as to how the Word was originally given. So the Fundamentalists don't state the Bible to which they are referring because they don't deem any of them completely accurate.

One of the hallmarks of Protestant Fundamentalism is its claim of inerrant scripture. This is a relatively new idea about scripture, coming into play around 1920 when some theologians got upset about the critical and historical study of the documents contained in the Bible and put together about 12 long papers called The Fundamentals. (there are plenty of good books documenting the history of fundamentalism and you can Google The Fundamentals and find them online).

Historical study asks questions like: where did these documents come from, who wrote them, what kind of cultural influences did the writers inherit, etc. The theologians who wrote, The Fundamentals were afraid that such study undermined people's faith in God, Jesus, and salvation. I disagree with that, faith is faith, which by its nature does not depend on a book.

So inerrancy is a "new" claim about scriptures made from what I see as a defensive position. In my view, it stems from a fear that a study of the Bible's sources and different writers, claims, errors, etc. would bother people. I disagree. Plenty of Christians accept the imperfections in the texts while still believing in God, Jesus, salvation, etc.

So back to inerrancy. The history of fundamentalism shows that inerrancy is a man-made idea about scriptures and also of a God that has to be "perfect" which is a theological position and therefore unprovable; that, too, is a matter of faith.

Pen

Pen I'm just curious, have you ever read any works from F.F. Bruce, or Karl Barth? Specifically, Bruce's book entitled (I think) The Books and the Parchments?

Did I already ask you this before?

I do know how you feel, BA. A few years back, we went through a situation with a church plant where the pastor, who seemed to be a stand-up guy, raped a 15 year old girl on the floor of his office. After a couple of days, she managed to gather herself together and go to the cops, he was arrested and plea bargained his way out of rape charges. It was all over the local papers. He got eight years; I though Galatians 5:12 would be more appropriate.

Apparently, the association of churches to which this pastor belonged sent a letter to the other pastors in the association stating that "we must do everything we can to help and support our brother during this difficult time."

Support him? What about the 15-year-old girl? She was a kid, he was 45 with a wife and two children, and a pastor for Pete's sake. I don't care if she pranced into his office naked as a jay-bird, threw herself down on his desk and said "please!" He just should have run like the very devil was on his heels.

This letter was mentioned on-line in a series of comments on the article in the local newspaper. I was outraged! I will never support a church of that particular denomination again. I don't know who got a hold of that letter and published parts of it, but they sure did me a favor.

There's nothing new under the sun, and man continues to devise evil. It's hard not to take the evil personally, but I think it's more the human nature to try to have one up on the other fella.

Your post made me feel sad.

Thank you Ms. Garden! I didn't mean to make you feel sad! :(

Never trust anyone who has to ask whether or not you trust them. Under normal circumstances, trust is a given, it doesn't have to be rality checked.

I have two pat answers for that question:

1. I trust, but I also verify

2. Sure, I trust you. But, I don't trust the devil inside you.

SoCrates

How about, "In God We Trust, all others pay cash."?

BA

To me....this sounds like a bit of an extreme perspective, but then again, I am blond and seriously may be missing something I could very well agree with. You sound a bit like my hubby, so maybe there is something to this Pollyanna/Cynic match.

Your husband sounds like a highly intelligent man! :) As far as the blond comment; no, you are not the stereotypical "blond" society tries to put on people. I enjoy your comments. Besides, I'm blond too.

It is a good thing that there is something which keeps some people in check or is there no such thing?

I agree that it is good there are things that keep people in check, and I believe there are such things.

I will tell you a secret BA...I know when certain people are using me and sometimes, I just look past that and let them. If I can offer some kind of help and support...I don't look for the evil motive....I often just do it. It happened to me today. Sometimes people just don't know how to ask for help, but that doesn't make them abusive. Sometimes people are struggling with issues and can't reach out.

Actually, that really is a better perspective. That goes along with the verse that says, "if someone bids you to walk a mile with him, walk two."

I also know that people can have expectations of me, without me looking at it as abusive. I would hope that there are expectations of me.

People are people, but that is everyone... including you and me. Do you really believe you are abusive or can become abusive by your definition? If you are aware of it....why can't you check it? Is it worth it to use someone? No, of course not.

I realize that people are people and that includes me. Do I really believe I am abusive or can be abusive? Absolutely! Man, I'm a Corps Grad! I've seen me be abusive. If I begin to strike out on my own and disregard input from others, or if I engage certain habit patters and don't forsake other habit patterns, yes, I will become abusive. Why can't I check it? Because I need others around me, so does everyone else. I need Jesus, I'm too weak to put my own sin nature in check. That's what I believe anyway. No, it's not worth it to use someone. However, when one is an abuser and in the throes of his abusiveness, he usually has it rationalized as to why his behavior is justified. It will sound like insanity to everyone else, but to him it will make complete sense.

Remember, some people give their lives for others...complete strangers donate marrow and blood....give their organs in death to give others life. We are made in God's image....and God can be pretty good.

I get what Skyrider is saying about corruption and critical thinking but, it seems like what you are looking for is perfection...

Quite to the contrary. I am saying that perfection is impossible with people. That's why we need to be transparent with each other and hold each other accountable and understand that everyone struggles with something. Maybe I'm not communicating very well, but such thinking allows me to show more grace to others...when I realize that expecting perfection on my part is unreasonable.

Not being perfect is not the same thing as being abusive.

Agreed.

Being human doesn't naturally translate into being abusive....at least I don't see it.

Hmm. I don't know if I agree with that or not. Fallen humanity, I think, does translate into being abusive...I mean, I think so, maybe...perhaps.

Your comment about looking past people's stuff and helping them out is making me re-think all this.

But, then again, I have been around some pretty amazing and selfless people who make me want to be better, so I may need to just get out more!!! :)

Good for you!

So is God dead then? He must be if He has not raised up any good and honest people to work through. No one is committed to Him? True faith is dead?

Maybe I don't understand the point. It could be, because it is hard to fathom such a drastic conclusion based on a few experiences. People are people. Maybe I am a Pollyanna, but, it has not been my experience since leaving TWI that people are inherently evil and abusive. Why the heck, would people bother to commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others, just to become abusive to those helping them with their vision? You are saying this is inevitable?

It all seems so cynical . . . . I think I must be missing the point. Seriously. I am not kidding...I don't get it. I don't think my mind works this way. I see so much good in people working together. I am dealing with Hospice right now...and it is an amazing experience. I am so thankful for them!

Maybe you're a "Pollyanna", maybe I'm a cynic, or a "Puddleglum" as my wife sometimes calls me.

Yes. I believe if left unchecked, people will abuse others intentionally, or unintentionally. Someone said, "The best of men are men at best". Then, of course, there's the familiar saying, "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even people, in my opinion, who commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others can fall prey to this. All they have to do is set up an organization and have at least one other person involved. Soon there will be disagreement on how things should operate and there we go. We humanoids are full of both evil as well as righteous desires.

Perhaps I should define abuse. I'm not necessarily talking about sexual molestation or stealing. . I am talking about when someone uses someone else for their own selfish benefit. It might be as simple as letting someone work themselves silly on our behalf to make us look good and deep inside we know they need a break. Does this mean there are no good organizations out there? No, I don't believe that. I'm not writing this to be depressing or hopeless. I think it's freeing to realize that every single one of us has an achilles heal. With that knowledge, we can have understanding and maybe even show mercy to someone who stumbles. With this knowledge perhaps we can help each other from getting in over our own heads and becoming corrupt. This knowledge keeps us honest with ourselves as well. We know we can be deceived, so we're not insecure when confronted. Yes, there's a "little Hitler" that lives in each one of us. I think a healthy organization knows this and should establish safeguards.

I've seen where organizations resist such transparency and come back with something like, "Don't you trust us? Do you really think I would...." No. I don't trust anyone with a completely free reign. Man in his current state cannot handle unbridled authority.

As for an organization that refuses to examine itself, and who refuses to let others examine them, avoid it because they are lying. People who won't share things because others "can't handle it", are hiding something, guarantee it.

I talk a good talk here but this is a tough area for me. I learned unquestioning obedience at the feet of TWI. That translates well in the workplace, too well. Many employers gladly hire doormats and treat them accordingly and that's what I've been for so long. I just can't play that role anymore and I'm afraid I've swung too much the other direction. I've just seen so much abuse and can smell it a mile away. I find myself unemployed right now because of my mouth, but hey, I still have my principals! (I'm being sarcastic)

I get angry at such little things like company officers having their own special parking places. As if their time is more important that everyone else's. I get angry when I sense high ranking officials desire that I get nervous when they come in and that I "snap to!" Or act like I'm such an impingement on their time when I have a question or whatever. I've got to figure out a way to get past this because it seems every organization wants their pecking order and get angry when it's not adhered to. While God may see us all equally, employers don't. I hate that.

An of course, sexual abuse can be rampant at the workplace. I hear a lot of stories of women having their jobs threatened if they did not comply with the "wishes" of their superior. Kind of a hard place to be in if one is a single mom. Uggh! The egotism of some people! These same people who are used to receiving worship come into my workplace and expect cow-towing from me and I don't play.

Anyway, I needed to get that off my chest. Sorry for the derail.

Okay, maybe I was confused. I read agenda and religion and probably misunderstood, but didn't TWI ask for money to move the word? Wasn't that their supposed agenda or mission? Didn't they claim to need money to carry on their business? They sure did. Isn't that what we at one time thought we were supporting?

I thought what you said about healthy boundaries was spot on...not missing out on being a part of something because of TWI. What you said about healthy relating was also really good.

What Skyrider said about relating as revealed in scripture really spoke to me as well, but two things can relate or coalesce, and be good.

My point is....that there are righteous agendas which we can support without giving up our individuality....without crossing personal boundaries....without selling our souls. Just because they are designed and implemented by people with an agenda does not make them bad. The motives and heart behind the agenda can make them good or bad.....but, bad is not a given. The people who run or are often involved in these causes are immersed in them, committed to them, sold out to them and identify with them as their work.

The difference between them and TWI is the heart and faith behind them. We are still free to embrace a group but also free to distinguish between motivations.

Not to mention we also reap the benefits of many individual or group agendas...Clara Barton had a vision and if you ever have a loved one in need of blood...her agenda may just be what saves them. Labor laws, child labor laws, safety regulations are born from an agenda....prison reform, or most any reform.....comes from a group with an agenda. That is just the way humans relate and work together. Common vision, common causes, change and effect on others.

That is all I was trying to point out. :) Hope that makes sense.

Actually, I think I'm the one that misunderstood :) . I think I understand what Skyrider is saying and I think he's right. Here's an axiom I believe: Any organization that is overseen by men becomes abusive. This is regardless of how well intended the group may be. The question isn't whether a group is abusive. The question is how bad is it. (That is not a quote but I got the original idea from a man named Ken Blue in is book, Spiritual Abuse).

Case in point: A few years ago we had a major scandal within a charitable organization called The United Way. One of the officers was embezzeling. We had a similar situation happen within the local chapter of the American Cancer Society. You can't get any more well intentioned than that. Yet, trusted people became crooked. So I agree with Skyrider, one should not put their unfailing blind trust in any organization.

The truth is we need each other. The truth also is none of us can be trusted. So what's the answer? I have a couple of ideas. First of all, how open is the organization to dissenting opinions? How is the organization run? Is it run by just one person? To whom, if anyone, do they hold themselves accountable? What are my boundaries? How much will I put up with? If my standard is perfection then I'm going to have a difficult road to hoe. I do not agree with those who say that once we have given our money to an organization, then it's none of our business how they spend it. That organization has an obligation to disclose their inner workings. Personally, I would avoid any organization that purports their leadership is beyond reproach.

Some churches, if there is sexual impropriety on the part of one of their leaders will cover it up. Other churches will make their congregations aware.

So, maybe some think they'll handle this by avoiding participation in any group at all. An understandable yet impossible way to live. Do you have a job? Is it with an organization? I've been hard put to find any company that is completely honest. Are you self employed? Do you have human beings as clients?

One should not be fearful of being involved in an organization as long as that person remains informed and realizes human weakness...to a point. Perhaps that what Jesus was saying when he said to be "wise as serpents yet harmless as doves."

There's a difference, though, Geisha. The groups you mentioned are engaged in doing a particular work and they ask for financial support to carry on their business. They don't come along with an entire agenda and demand you follow it in order to be an approved follower. No one's going to come around and get in your face about, for example, how you raise your children, etc.

You might be an exception, but I don't think most who give to World Vision, or Voice of the Martyrs even know who is in charge. They just support the work.

I have an acquaintance whose experience may be similar to yours.

I appreciate you sentiment. Just to be clear, and I'm not saying you said this, my marriage did not fail as a result of me going to a "Jesus" church. It had already fallen apart and I turned to Christ.

Now, this is something I can really understand and it is a great testimony. Thank you for sharing this.

I too, had to go like a baby, on my knees in repentance. I can remember things just washing over me, all the times I had denied Him, or the things I had done that I thought were okay with Him. It all came out and I laid it at the foot of the cross. It was then I became a Christian. I knew I was forgiven and accepted.

I paid a heavy price for my time in the Way. Things I would never share here. Things lost that I cannot regain.....I still have some sorrow, but I know that I am forgiven. It didn't take away the consequences of my sins. I didn't get a do over of my youth and folly, but, I have faith in Him and some peace about my past.

Usually, I am just awestruck He rescued me...His mercy is unfathomable. I know He will deliver anyone who throws up their hands and just humbly asks Him.

Here am I, and the children God has given me.

God is good. :)

Thank you, Geisha, and thank you for your testimony.

what does one do, when ones youth fails, ones teeth fall out, and the money fails..

How about two out of three?

And.....twi failed to teach and establish these boundaries/relationships.

To name a few...

1) sending out WOWs.....2 men / 2 women

2) cfs class was more lust than respect

3) indiana campus and the adultery

No argument from me on that. Still, healthy boundaries are something that can be had now.

quote: I stayed out because I found my life to be incomplete in TWI.

Sounds like you had personal issues that were separate from VP or twi, yet, that twi couldn't or wouldn't help you with. I'm glad those got resolved for you. Praise God, and to a lesser extent, whoever God worked through to help you.

That's true, Johniam. That's not why I'm no longer with TWI. My point in saying all that I said a few days ago is that when faced with a real problem, I needed a relationship with a loving Father. Quoting Bible verses, focusing on what I wanted, then shooting the picture, determining what was available, how to receive it, what to do with it after I got it etc., knowing to whom the Bible was addressed, the fact that 4 were crucified with Jesus, were of no value. Neither was being smug in knowing that I knew the rightly divided Word, and that I was a graduate of The Way Corps etc. all were hollow. Being led to the one who carried my sin, crying like a baby while I repented of my sin, and then receiving his acceptance and true love were what delivered me. I did not know this Jesus while in The Way International. Moreover, this type of relating was frowned upon in TWI. TWI would say to "forget the past", "stand up staight and know you're a son of God". "Claim your sonship rights", "Ask forgiveness and move on". Some would even say I was practicing idolatry. That's why I am no longer with TWI.

When faced with a soul defeating sin, it takes more than just claiming sonship rights and moving on. It takes recognition in knowing there is something broken within, and then realizing that one's only hope for overcoming this lies in the risen Christ. This same Christ will never leave or forsake us. Much bigger than "receive, retain, release".

To reiterate, TWI reduced God from a loving Father to a principle to be applied.

Never again, will I allow any one group have that much control over me.

I hear that a lot on this website. Let's hope we don't get led into another tyrannical system. If I may, I would suggest that it's important to realize how we get pulled into such a damaging organization.

What started our descent into TWI? I think it's because all of us have a need for relationship by virtue of the fact we're human. That is not a bad thing, it's a normal thing. The need for relationship is so strong that we'll sometimes do goofy things to get it. The problem is not that we desire a full, deep, mutually satisfying relationship with someone else. The problem for some of us is that we failed to establish strong, healthy boundaries. Perhaps those boundaries were never modeled for us, or perhaps some of us were so hungry for relationship that we allowed our healthy boundaries to be breached.

Without healthy relating, and without relational boundaries, the only way to protect ourselves from being hurt again is to withdraw from any sort of relationshp. In doing so, we cut ourselves off from what brings us true satisfaction and a sense of belonging. That is because humans are wired for relationship. Cutting ourselves off from others is a broken, miserable existence. Yet, a lot of choose that over what we've been through. True, we may stay out of a toxic relationship, but we do so at the expense of any relationship at all.

I said all that to say I believe focusing on establishing healthier boundaries will serve us better.

You guys forgot I assembled a timeline of his life in the "the way:living in wonderland" thread.

This is a copy of the last iteration of the timeline (5.6).

========================================

====

Victor was married July 2, 1937(Mr was 20, Mrs was 21). According to vpw, he and Mrs W married

secretly while he was still in college. No reason for this was ever given.

This is likely true. Back in the 40's, woman in nurse's training had to live in dormitories and keep particular hours. They were not permitted to marry while in training. I'm not sure why, but I believe the thinking was if the woman married, she would go off with her husband and not complete the training. Why they thought that, or even cared, I don't know. Certainly it was a discriminative law, but times were a lot different in the 40's.

I know this because my in-laws did the same thing. They were married "incognito" so she wouldn't be kicked out of nurse's training. The joke was that nowadays a couple will typically live together for a year or two before they get married. But my in-laws got married before they could live together. I didn't say it was a funny joke. <_<

Please, if you think of it. The Gaither's are such kind people. . . . it just surprises me so much! My kid knows Ernie Haase and Doug Anderson, they were so so good to my son!

Unless you were not talking to me. :)

It wouldn't be mean-spirited of Bill Gaither to do that. First of all, it was a slap in the face to use one of his songs without permission. It was, in fact stealing. That's why there are copyright laws. Also, he feels as strong about his doctrinal beliefs as does TWI, so he would believe he was defending. Plus, of course, a lot of people believed then as they do know that TWI was a cult. He probably didn't want to have any of his songs associated with that.

Whatever happened to her? Anybody know?

[

[

A misnomer is something that is misnamed. (definition)

For example: the moon isn't really a moon. When you compare moon-planet ratios it comes out too large. This is actually a biplanetary system: Terra-Luna. However, we still refer to it as the moon.

SoCrates

You know, this keeps getting more and more complicated. First Pluto is no longer a planet, now the moon is a planet, or is it a dwarf planet?

And another thing, was does Mickey Mouses' dog, Pluto, not have any clothes and Goofy does? Arent they both dogs? How come Goofy can talk and Pluto can't. This has been bothering me since the age of six.

Sorry...kind of a yucky post in reflection. Wish I could delete a lot of things I've said over the years. Only here on Greasespot is this possible!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dHUfy_YBps

John Lennon looks like Father Guido Sarducci.

Okay, now look. I think I may have started a monster here.

Someone questioned why TWI changed the words to "O Come All Ye Faithful" to "How Firm a Foundation".

I responded that I didn't think TWI changed the words, that someone else did that. Then in passing I mentioned that back in the day it was fairly common to put different words to a familiar tune. I was trying to explain why someone else may have appeared to have changed the words to "O Come All Ye Faithful".

I don't think I communicated this very well because I think many thought I was excusing TWI for changing the words to songs without giving credit. I was not, at least I didn't intend to. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

whatever happened to Sherrie.. excuse the miss-spell..

yeah. what ever happened to the first wife. The mother of your offspring..

fair question, isn't it?

Who is Sherrie?

The law of believing says what you think about the most you become, right?

If that's the case, we'd all be female. After all, what's usually on the mind of a 14 year old boy?

SoCrates

Now, THAT'S funny!

geesh! can't you just renew your mind to the wrong misnomer or something

Hey! You don't renew your mind to a wrong misnomer, you renew your mind to the Word, the Word, and nothing by my, er, the Word! You're getting sloppy in your jargon! Say it wrong properly or don't say it wrong at all!

I didn't know Hank Williams wrote that song.

And there's an extra verse of it too that I've never heard before.

Was it,

"I was a fool to have waundered and strayed.

"Straight is the gate and narrow's the way.

"But I've been changed from the wrong to the right.

"Praise the Lord! I saw the light."?