Broken Arrow

Ah, I wish you could see that run-on sentence it in the original! It is magnificent. I have seen it in the original; I have the old manuscript in my library. I wish you could see it.

I used to hate getting those stupid cards with the BOD's picture plastered on the front. And what was worse most twi folks used to hang those cards all over the place, which really fouled up a room. It was like they were showing how committed they were to hang the stupid card in plain sight so the could S.I.T for them like a house of fire. <_<

Then there were the VPW "holy cards". A Wallet-sized picture of VP standing with a dark blue suit and a Bible. I brought a "new person" to the Rock one year and he took one look at those and went "Yech!" and he never came back. Said we worshipped Wierwille...can you imagine that? The heathen!

Discerning of Plaster

The manifestation of Discerning of Plaster is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may receive from God, by His revealing it to you, certain truths or facts concerning any plaster about which it is humanly impossible to know by your five senses to know anything.......

And that's another thing, thanks for bringing this up, isn't that a run-on, and redundant sentence? I'm talking about the definitions from the A-Class. That always bothered me.

That entire place is falling apart. TWI really did try to hold that place together but it's just too old. Anderson Library is a beautiful building. I hope they don't have to demolish it.

This just made me realize that I haven't gotten an ugly HoHo card in a couple of years....

YES!

I'm not sure what is worse; an ugly TWI "Ho-Ho card", or one of those holiday newsletters from a friend who rattles on for 3 pages about how great their life is. You know, ones that go something like, "Billy got his blue belt in tae-kwan-do, and Sheila is in Switzerland studying the effects of global warming on tadpoles. She'll graduate with honors, as usual hee-hee!"

I've always wanted to send out a newsletter saying, "We're very happy this year because our daughter Sally finally completes her drug rehab program. Her counselor is hopeful that this time it will work. As far as our son George, we're very proud of him. He's come a long way since trying to stab his teacher during math class. (Boy were we embarrassed!) Carl has promised that this year he is going to get serious about finding a job!"

There are many more facilities and cities that were better suited to handle a huge crowd like that. I'm not sure what TWI was thinking when they picked OU.

I'm sure they got a better deal from OU. OU was in dire financial straights at the time.

I don't think there was a manifestation emphasis that night. My recollection is that VP used that time to showcase Way Productions. There was a lot of press there.

Sorry, I always thought "apostate" was someone who not only left a group, but also adulterated the group's doctrine.

Double-posted.

Innnneresting Twinky.

I do support that idea and think we in the United States would benefit from finding ways to apply it. I think there are many circumstances that it would work and would be beneficial for everyone.

I know that in the U.S. a person may have their record "expunged". I don't know what the criteria is, however.

Under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, in the UK convictions are "spent" after a period of time (around 10 years) and don't need to be disclosed unless specifically required to be disclosed on, for example, job applications. It means people are not punished in perpetuity and there is an incentive to "stay straight" and clear (to some extent) one's name. A reduction in recidivism (repeat offending) has got to be good for society. The conviction is not deleted from one's criminal record - it just doesn't have to be disclosed to all and sundry, and cannot be referred to in most contexts.

Got to be good if you were a stupid young man or had a rotten beginning and have cleaned your act up. If someone screws up their late teens or 20s by being a bit of a hell-raiser but by the time they've got to their 30s or 40s and have learned a bit of responsibility, why should they continue to be treated like a 20 year old hell-raiser?

Anyway, FYI here's a link to an easy-read website: Rehabilitation of Offenders - spent convictions

Other countries also have much more rehabilitative schemes. Restorative justice, restoration of offenders, and all that stuff.

This really ought to be a separate topic....oops.

I just was curious to see if you had anything to back up your previous statement about the U.S. not being good at rehabilitation. Your response was more about what you feel is a fallacy in the U.S. justice system of which I agree. Nevertheless, I don't think anybody is very effective at rehabilitation, meaning permanently altering one's behavior into that of a law-abiding citizen. You're right, any further discussion about this should be on a separate thread.

why do apostates always have to be false..

Because if they aren't false they aren't apostates.

I made a choice to go into the Fellowlaborers of Ohio program. I am responsible for making that choice. But, the choice was based on misinformation that was given to me by people I trusted. Do they get left off the hook here while I'm stuck holding the bag?

What can be done now? You can't make 'em pay, you can't get your youth back, or your wasted time.

The US doesn't seem very good at rehabilitating people back into society...

Granted. Now, what country is good at rehabilitating people back into society?

Prison is full of folks down on their luck. People our society shuns. They don't fit in, so they end up in jail.

Did vpw, lcm or rosie ever go to jail for what they've done? Did their most-loyal followers?

Is our society/culture is accepting of folks like vpw, lcm and rosie?

Is society/culture is accepting of folks like vpw etc.?

Yes, as long as they don't get caught. That's my take on society, anyway.

Johniam, My dad wasn't a reporter, he happened to be an accountant. He really had a problem with my involvement with TWI and thought Wierwille was a charlatan. In the early 70's in New York a group of parents were extremely anti-way, believed it was a dangerous cult, and some of those parents, my dad included, worked toward unearthing claims that Wierwille made that were false. Of course I wasn't interested in listening to any of it when I was young. I actually didn't know about this until I saw my dad's name when I read "The Cult That Snapped. Thanks Karl Kahler, it made me proud!

Wow! That was great! Was your father still living when you made your discovery?

A lot of people do identify themselves first with their state and secondly with the country. Probably the most notable example is Texas. But, you will find a similar sentiment in parts of Alaska and Hawaii. At least, that's the impression I've gotten from people I have worked with from those places.

Even still, I believe a Texan would consider an attack on say, Norfolk, as a personal attack because they consider themselves Americans. If Alaska were attacked by a foreign government I would also take that as a personal attack on my country. I hope they feel the same. Don't know much about Alaska. Maybe Clay, if he's lurking, can give us a perspective.

Since the U.S. actually conquered Hawaii, there are still some there that are upset about that.

Holland is The Netherlands (not just "in" The Netherlands).

Do you really not think of the US as being one block?

Do you-all think of yourselves as being Texan/Californian/Alaskan etc first, and then American second?

Or are you American first, then Texan/Californian/Alaskan etc.

Maybe you do think of yourselves by State, since each State is so big and the lot of you are so much one continent (excluding Hawai'i).

Certainly in the EU people see themselves as Brit, or French, or Spanish...and then European. In Britain we might also think of ourselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish before thinking of ourselves as British. And some Brits are not altogether sure they are or want to be Europeans. Like Europeans are some other species. Maybe French and Germans (the original EU countries, straight after WW2) would think more of themselves as Europeans...but each country is still so different.

For anyone that's interested: European Union

The European Parliament is now the highest rule-maker for each country...it makes laws and countries have to bring their own legislation into line with it. This is not always a welcome or happy process (says she, in true Brit fashion, understating how things go!).

Anyway, sorry, this has gone way .

I knew Holland is The Netherlands, I don't know why I used the word, "in".

To answer your question and speaking for myself, I think of myself as American first and Ohioan second. I think most Americans think the same way. Unlike Europe, most Americans speak the same language. That is not to say we completely understand each others' accents.

Your question is of particular interest to me because there was a time when Americans identified more with their state than the union. Even at our inception many in the Northern states wanted to see slavery abolished in the South(many in the South did too but that's another story). The debate intensified as to whether the federal government had the right to mandate law over the will of the individual states. Eventually this debate resulted in what we call "The Civil War", and it changed the way people viewed the nation and themselves as citizens of the nation.

Sorry to continue the derail but I find your perspective as a European very interesting.

I remember Lovely Loy sounding off one day (well...more than once) about the European Union and all the countries working together for closer economic union. He had lots of scathing things to say. And (as a European) I could only think, "Keep your bloody nose out of it!"

Who is he to make a statement about Europe, or my own country? What does he know about their politics, individually or collectively? Does he even know where these countries are? My view is in no small measure based on how little most Americans know about Europe - not knowing the countries, or which major city is in which country, etc, etc.

I also thought: that Lovely Loy or his "advisers" perceived the larger economic unit of Europe a threat to US economic interests. With a bigger block and more countries working together, the US economy perhaps couldn't pick off or wedge into smaller countries and use those as a foothold for more economic oppression.

And I further thought: yeah, all right for you to say that...now...now that your States are all one block. Do you want to disband the US union because that union is so evil? No, thought not. You just want to stop others achieving the benefits of cross-border business, multi-nationalism, etc.

Call me carnal-thinking if you like. His opinion wasn't based on anything other than his "spiritual revelation" and we all know how that ended up.

With apologies to those Europhiles among you who do know that Madrid isn't a city in Italy...LOL. And Belgium is not the capital of Holland...ah, where?

And Holland is in The Netherlands, not "Never Never Land".

As far as the EU, I'm sure a lot of folks see it as one more step toward one-world government which is a sign of the "end times" as discussed in The Book of Revelation. I'm just addressing why some are opposed, or feel threatened by the EU.

I personally think that the United States needs a strong Europe. We need allies, and we need for them to be strong. There have been many times both have turned to the other in a time of need. George W. Bush said the U.S. has no greater friend than England. That probably would have hurt my feelings if I were Canadian, but I believe the point is well taken. Competition is good for the economy and Europeans are simply looking for ways to be stronger. It simply means the U.S. also needs to be more competitive.

I don't understand what you mean when you speak of "U.S. economic repression". You're not the first non-American I've heard say that, but I don't see it. I would like to be enlightened.

I have never thought about the U.S. states "being one block". That is a very interesting perspective to me. I see it as different as the EU because in the U.S. the federal government has the final say. With the EU there has to be consensus amongst the countries, correct?

I was once invited to afternoon tea by the Queen of England. Well, ok, it was really the little neighbor girl. But, she let me be Prince William so how cool was that, huh?

Frankly, that's a lot more of an honor than going to some ol' inauguration ball; probably more fun too.

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like i said (or did i?) i would liked to have seen that bastud hitch

and BELIEVE god

The thing is Excie, he very well may have. Back in the 30's and 40's my parents, who were about his age give or take, tell me hitching was fairly common and fairly safe. People did it all the time during the depression and the war. A totally different culture than what we were living in.

If all animals and plants have "rights"....what will one eat?

If every bug has "rights".......every driver is killing daily. Should all trucks, cars, trains, and planes be outlawed?

If every plant has "rights".....no one should mow their grass. Walking thru the woods will be prohibited as it endangers the habitat.

If microscopic bacteria have "rights".....no one should be allowed to breath without wearing a face-veil or state-approved filtration device.

And, the questions would never cease.

You're right, of course, but here's the rub. I'm going to make a statement I can't back up :o. I think we all know the balance in the things you mentioned. As soon as we try to define it, it gets all screwed up. I don't know if it's cultural or what, but we (meaning humanity or at least western humanity) are just infatuated with hard and fast rules and that's when things break down. The only people that bring up stuff like this (not you so much) are people that want to bend the system, and there are plenty of those. Until mankind can just do the right thing without it having to be defined down to the last little detail we're going to be stuck on about everything.

I think animals have rights. Actually, what I really think is we have a responsibility to the animals. Animals for food? Sure! Animal rights people are more concerned with these stories you hear about when someone who keeps their dogs in a pen and gives them no food and water for days, or tortures them, or makes them fight other animals for gambling purposes.

I have nothing against whaling. Leave some people to their own devices, though and they'll kill every single whale. Everyone knows what to do. But those who want to circumvent the system for their own benefit want rules so they can bend them as much as possible.

I must comment specifically on this one: SKYRIDER wrote:

"Is the ego of man so great that he REALLY THINK he can rule the world?"

Not only does man THINK so, but God says it WILL happen.

FWIW, I agree with most of what you're saying, not so much the way you're saying it. I don't think, however, that God says anywhere that man will rule the world. If anything, man is ruling the world now, and doing a lousy job of it. Even though I don't think there is enough evidence to prove global warming, I am still all in favor of stewardship.

So I'm all in favor of having clean air, clean water, etc. That's not worshipping the creation. That's just taking care of the place.

I wish that were true. More and more, I keep seeing his praises being sung on facebook. People are quoting him, word for word, as though they don't even realize they are parroting him.

You need to be more like me and only hang with people that agree with your line of thinking. Then the world starts making much more sense.

Helloooo - I have another question!

I don't think my political views were influenced - I didn't have a vote in the US and things were different elsewhere. As an observer, I did find it odd that a US TWI person might speak of other non-TWI Christians as not knowing anything, being like natural men (!), or even worse (!!), but in a political race a non-TWI Republican would suddenly be "our guy." I suppose that helped me figure out that it didn't matter what people said unless it made sense to me.

Here's the question that I never figured out. I got into a short discussion once with a US person (that I liked very much) about the EU - he seemed to think it was a step down the slippery slope, but he couldn't explain to me why, and all I remember him saying was that the US had never been invaded (in comparison to Europe). I said he should tell that to the nearest tribe, but he meant the political US, not geographical, ha, ha. I've heard some strange things said about the EU, and I've heard others say it's not "spiritual' at all, but economic worry. Was there a TWI policy about the EU or signs of the one-world gov or such?

I thought the thing about anything non-TWI as being worldly until it came to a Republican candidate was kind of funny too. Maybe it was the fact that Gahagen was Republican, I don't know.

Please excuse my ignorance, being a typical American that thinks the whole world revolves around only our issues, what do you mean when you say "EU"? Is that the Euro, or are you talking about Europe?

By the way, the U.S. mainland was invaded by the British during the war of 1812. They almost burned down the White House. There a famous story about Dolly Madison, wife of President James Madison, who, when being evacuated rescued George Washington's portrait at the expense of her personal belongings. She was sure the British would have destroyed it, which they probably would have.

The country that hasn't been invaded for over a century, maybe two centuries, is England. England was bombed during WW II, but never invaded. So, you're friend was wrong even in terms of what you call the "political U.S."