Abigail

Mark Wallace was on of LCM's best friends? Geez, another piece of the puzzle falls into place and begins to make sense!

Belle, You can do a google search on Yom Kippur or Rosh Hoshannah to find the appropriate greetings. The Jewish calendar goes from sunset to sunset so you would begin your fast at sunset on Friday night and end it on Saturday night. Technically it ends when three stars are seen in the sky, but if it's cloudy you could be hungry for a long time!!!! LOL It is also recommended if you have health issues that you either skip the fast or consult a doctor first.

There are many ways and variations. What we do is EAT and pray. :)--> We eat sweet bread (raisin bread) in the hopes of a sweet new year and dip apples in honey for the same reason. Carrots symbolize an abudnance in the physical category - to receive it and be able to give it as well eggs represent life and the cycle of life which we wish to see continue over the next year There is so much food! It is also a time for introspection Rosh Hoshannah is followed by the days of awe (10 days) in which we focus on making ammends to those we have wronged and looking within ourselves to see where we want to grow and how we might procede (in baby steps). Sometime between Rosh Hoshannah and Yom Kippur we take bread to the ducks and feed them, as we are feeding them we are also casting away all the sins we commited in the past year so we can start the new year clean and fresh. (it is a yearly reminder of the gift we have every day, which we also get to start fresh and new). Then the evening which begins Yom Kippur we eat a huge meal before a day of fasting and prayers for the new year. It ends when we break our fast and have a celebration of joy for the upcoming year and the fresh start we once again have. It is also customary to read the story of Jonah on this day. There is tons of information and ways of observing. As a wise man once said, "everyone must set their own table." This means, you celebrate it in a way that has meaning for YOU! :)-->

Amen Coolwaters! I spoke up, many times. Eventually, I got so beaten down I quit speaking up (much to my shame and regret). But that eventually lead to me getting so angry I left. On one occasion, they were showing the video about Martin Luther and our twig coordinators told us to bring our children (in front of our entire fellowship). I didn't want to bring them to a two hour movie that would not interest them and keep them up past their bedtime (they were only about 1 and 3 at the time). I knew they would never sit still and quiet that long. I don't think their father wanted to either, but he pretty much did whatever they told him to. So we brought them, and I let them play in the back of the room, trying to keep them quiet and happy at the same time. Naturally they made some noise and naturally they did not sit for two hours. I didn't "reprove" them or use the spoon. They were just kids and my opinion behaved very well under the circumstances. However, I could see their father getting angrier and angrier and I KNEW I was gonna really get it when I got home. The kids too. After the meeting my twig coordinator blew up at me all over the place and in front of everyone about how stupid it was to bring the kids to this thing. I was so shocked I was speachless and it was all I could do to keep from bursting into tears. Everyone heard and several people (including my ex) came up to me later and pointed out that THEY had told me to bring them. BUT NOT ONE PERSON, INCLUDING MY EX, spoke up to the twig coordinators and pointed that out. I left TWI very shortly after that.

Tonight begins Rosh Hoshannah, the birthdate of all humanity, the day Adam was formed. The next ten days are a time to make amends and reflect on how we can make our piece of the world a little bit better for everyone over the next year. Each and every year there descends and shines a new and renewed light, which has never yet entered the world — Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi Y'hee ratzon mee-l'fanekha, Adonai Elohaynu v'elohey avoteynu May it be Your will, Lord our God and God of our ancestors sh'tichadeish aleinu shanah tovah um'tuqah. that you renew for us a good and sweet year.

Belle, I checked out the thread but it mostly went WAY over my head. However, a good read on quantum physics as it applies to spirituality is "I'm Not Really Here". Don't fall off your chair laughing because it is written by the comedian, Tim Allen. It is a funny book, but it is also serious and it explains this stuff in terms even I could understand. I recommend it very highly to anyone who is interested in this stuff.

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I saw people compromising every single area of their life in twi. " ". A parent is responsible for the safety of their children not twi that is the point everyone seems to disagree with. I saw people compromise their families and self in every area of life , I have said that from post one on this thread. the problem is when you ask people to be accountable for their own behaviours and choices of who to seek consel from and obey by choice then blame them when your life goes sour. " "now if you have private conversation and listen to the advice of someone you went to that was different.. it was chapter and verse please remember? " "some of you will never get to the point you realize why or how it happened other than saying tomy told me to jump off a bridge so I did and now im drowning because of him. and half the time tommy never even told you to jump off the bridge anyway you decided to do it and then blamed tommy for it !" "Is it twi ordered parents to now beat your children or more like troubled stupid ignorant people got involved in twi with many personal problems and in sick relationships and poor backgrounds knocked on the leaders door and said this is my life in the gutter please fix it but I do not really know or want to know what the bible says much less apply it to my own personal life? " "you can not see it is exactly how those who fell victim in twi got fooled . not me tho so sorry it make you FEEl angry." I have yet to see a poster in this thread deny responsibility for their actions, exept you MJ, who claims to have not been fooled. However,MJ, you let your own marriage end over TWI. (I know this because you have said so in posts here at Greasespot). It is not us who haven't dealt with our actions and choices, it is YOU. You point fingers at us, because you haven't faced it yourself. Either you haven't forgiven yourself yet, because that would require admitting to yourself what you have done; or you haven't forgiven yourself yet because the process of forgiving yourself would also require understanding why you did what you did. This in turn would require you to understand that these people you put your trust in used and deceived you; and if you let them use and decieve you to such a degree that it cost you your marriage, how can you possibly trust your own self again? It is a process which must be worked through for healing and recovery to occur. Many of us here have had to work through it. Those who did trust their own judgement prior to TWI, often saw that self trust slowly errode away over time via the doctrine and practice of TWI. You are not alone, many of us have been through it to some degree or another.

Boy Chas, can I relate to your story. My ex was the same way. I don't know if he is bipoler, borderline or something else entirely, but there is definitely a problem. We went to marriage counselling for the last year of our marriage and the marriage counsellor saw it to. Couldn't say anything to him or help him though cause he was so steeped in TWI doctrine nothing go through. The counselling sure helped me a lot though. The guy was doing all kinds of crazy and abusive stuff and TWI leadership pretty much had me convinced it was all my fault and if I was just a better wife, etc. Counselling helped me see I wasn't responsible for his behavior and his behavior was dangerous. Well between that and the guitar that came flying at my head at 3 a.m., I finally figured out I had to get out.

"Abigail, I think you are right on with us all being part of one body and one mind. I think all of us make up the consciousness of the universe and we all contribute to it whether we believe that or not and wether our contributions are positive or not. Everything we do, say, think impacts us and others we may not even be aware of." Exactly, Belle!!! "The Unified Field Theory is mostly physics based, but many people believe that it is a good start on proof that we are all unified and "one soul" as Abigail so wonderfully put it." I haven't seen the thread but will check out later when I have more time. On a similar note, I see the same with quantum physics, or perhaps that is what you are already speaking of? "I think this is what the Bible means when it talks about us being of one mind and one body. It's a shame most religions don't see it that way." Yes, one body, but without the narrow perspective of "one religion". Just different parts of the same body, different paths, all parts, all paths, necessary.

It has been said that these things which occured, happened because we were little culties with all sorts of personal issues and problems. Hmmm, the same thing has happened in the Catholic church, and other churches as well. Is the Catholic church a little cult full of screwed up followers? Or is it perhaps, that these things happen because there are people out there who will prey upon people's trust, people's desire to know god, etc.? Surely we are accountable for our decisions, but were we wrong to trust or are they wrong to abuse that trust? to prey upon it?

"I like ignore bettter than condone and harbored sex offenders much better! ignore is fine. we all ignored much in twi. haha I know I did ." Through their ignorance, they DID condone and harbor sex offenders. It wasn't as if they were ignorant as in "didn' know" it was that they were willfully ignorant, as in "ignored what they did know." The Catholic church has done the same. They ignored sex offenders, shipped them off to new places where they could go on to harm others. By doing so, they condoned and harbored. It is no different. The example I gave, of my ex leaving bruises on my children. I knew it was wrong, I didn't need anyone else to agree with me in order to believe it was wrong and I am the one who ultimately found a way to put a stop to it. HE was the one who needed the consent of leadership to stop. He was the one who blindly followed leadership. He believed he was doing the word when he left those bruises. He used the spoon because they told him to. He would have stopped leaving bruises if they told him to. They refused to teach him that it was NOT OK TO LEAVE BRUISES on children. They knew it was happening, even said it was ok that it was happening, they condoned it and harbored it.

"what you think and pt and private e-mail with the tag team effort of getting rid of those who you decide do not belong that stinks of twi and the abuse that happened." Your paranoia is showing again, MJ. I've seen you spew forth this song and dance over and over again too. Typically you do so when you have nothing logical to say in response to what has been said to you. Dodge, distract, etc. "the focus was teaching the word not scraping all the dead cats off the side of the road you cant do much to help people when they want you to fix their life in gerneral " and "That is right abbby the focus was not helping people people wee considered animals or pets like cats less than was my entire point. " Both of those are direct quotes from you MJ. Which is it, was TWI about teaching God's Word (and why teach it if you didn't care about the people?) Or did TWI not care about helping people? See, it becomes very obvious that your only real aim here is to vent your own anger, hurt, and self-loathing on others. How does it become obvious? By your continual back and forth positions. You will argue the opposite of anything anyone says and condemn them in the process, not because you care about or really believe in what you are saying, but because you are so incredibly bitter. "I never got bitter abby because of my deliverence and Im the one who is not angry or bitter I forgive myself and others as I said in a post decades ago. why not?" Sure, that comes through loud and clear --> "I wass marked went back went to off shoot still talk to folks in the way and the off shoots many have gone and gone . no they didnt "bleed me dry" in fact being marked help me realize what my focus was and what it should have been all along " Keep on selling it, I'm sure someone out there will buy it, but not me. I remember you, MJ. I remember when you first came here, I remember chatting with you and I remember e-mailing with you. Quite a ways back now. You were hurtin then and you are hurting now. The difference is, back then you were not in denial. What happened to push you so far into denial, MJ? Whatever it was, must have been very painful. I'm sorry you were hurt so badly that you cannot face it. Ultimately, you will find facing it far less painful than the denial you currently live in.

And here is perhaps the most important part. You cannot condemn others nearly as much as you condemn yourself. Forgiveness is key. God looks on the heart and forgives. When you don't forgive yourself you are rejecting what God has given you.

Oh, I must have hit a sore spot, hmmmmm? "it was your problem abby and you sought answers you wanted to hear " your ignorance is showing again, MJ. That doesn't even make sense. If I had received the answers I wanted to hear I would probably still be with TWI. "the focus was teaching the word not scraping all the dead cats off the side of the road" No, their focus was on making money, they are a corporation and that is what corporations do. They actually prefer the almost dead cats though, the ones who still have money to give. They aren't much interested in those people whose lives don't need fixing - big witness key, taught over and over by TWI, find the victim's area of need and help them get their need met. Suck em in, bleed em dry, toss them out. Cept they didn't bleed me dry or toss me out, I left on my own. If my memory serves me correctly, you can't say that can you? You were kicked out, right? Or was that the offshoot that kicked you out? Who was the dead cat, MJ? Who did they bleed dry? They actually fought to keep me in. I took out a restraining order to insure they and my ex left me alone. I'm sorry to be so cruel to you MJ. I generally try to be much kinder to people, but sometimes what goes around comes around. Denial can be an a life saver when people are in a bad way. But denial taken too far or held on to for too long is very very unhealthy not only for the individual in denial but for those around the individual as well.

"in a sense you can look at it like they tried to instruct parents on how to teach their children without being brutal... like the earlier thread said to get their attention etc. " Telling parents its ok to leave bruises on a 2 year old child isn't brutal? This is teaching parents how to use the spoon correctly? You are one very twisted individual, MJ. "The fact that individuals would look to twi leaders for their guidance and life style and direction and then be shocked at what they got for answers is of no surprise to me. haha " I'll bet it isn't. You're like a broken record on this one MJ. Projecting your own garbage all over everyone else in an attempt to make yourself feel better, regardless of who you trash and hurt in the process. CW was correct, you protest too much and in the process reveal your own weaknesses. You think you are teaching anyone here something? You think you are helping them? guiding them? counseling them? HA! Look inside your own self and fix what is broken, then you will be truly able to help those around you. Until then, what spews forth out of your keyboard is nothing more than a reflection of your own self loathing. I could feel very sorry for you under different circumstances, but I have little pity for those who are so dishonest with their own self.

"thatis what Im saying exactly that is was a complex mix of those who had personal issues of their own with what twi offered as a life style set of rules that got so warped people got hurt. but to say it was all about twi and they condoned it set it up and even arranged such truama is beyond reasonable to me. " It may be what you intended to say, but it did not communicate that way across the screen. It communicated very much as if you were simply blaming the parents. Additionally, you presume and assume you know what those personal issues were and are, when you do not. What you end up doing is projecting your own issues all over everyone else! I think most of us parents know we made mistakes (and what parent doesn't, anyway), some of us made huge mistakes. Yes we had and have personal issues, again who does not? BUT the point of this thread was that TWI did condone and cover-up abuse. Hell they TAUGHT us to abuse our children. They TAUGHT us to hit our two year old children with wooden spoons if they did not sit quietly through fellowship. My ex left bruises on my son with that damned spoon. When I went to leadership about it the response was, "well, sometimes that is what it takes to get a child's attention." I stopped it, by pointing out to my ex that the state was going to take our children away, if it continued. So again, the point of this particular thread isn't, what personal issues did you have that made you so suseptible to TWI doctrine, the point of this particular thread was about the behavior of those in charge, what they taught, what they covered up, etc.

Outside counselling was very much frowned upon in our area. I have a friend whose daughter is biopolar, boy did her mom get grief for putting her on medications. Not only counselling, but even M.D.'s were frowned upon to a degree. I had another friend who's two year old daughter fell and broke a bone in her neck. She needed surgery to fuse in a piece of bone, in order to repair the break. Not doing so could mean an accidental bump in the wrong spot could kill her. Her parents were reproved for not believing God to heal their daughter.

Specifically, I was pretty happy from Fall of 1990 to sometime in 1995. Our area was not particularly "tapped into HQ" during those years. In fact, our entire state was pretty much out of the loop. I guess HQ finally realized this in 1995 because they replaced pretty much all of the leadership in our state from the limb coordinator on down to every fellowship coordinator. Things went dowhill very very quickly after that.

We have similar laws here in Michigan, MJ, and yes, it is a good law. One of the reasons I got out of TWI (and there was certainly more than one) and my marriage, was for my children. It just took me some time and counselling, to figure it out and work up the courage to do it. It also meant taking the chance the devil was going to kill me, but if it wasn't the devil it might have been my ex. So, ya do whatchya gotta. "I understand you thought what you did was right" Yes, I did, as I do now. See, if it had all been about people pleasing I would spend my whole life being screwed, wouldn't I. Cause you never can please all the people. There are those who would condemn me for getting divorced and accepting help from the government to make sure my childrens' medical needs are met too. If I was worried about what those people thought, my seven year old would be in a whole heap of trouble, medically. There were certainly those in TWI who were more concerned about pleasing people than they should have been. However, I suspect the majority of people did the things they did because they genuinely believed they were doing God's word and genuinely feared the consequences (from the devil) of not doing God's word. This would include those who had abortions, even though in their hearts they didn't really want to. Those who used that damned spoon even though in their hearts, didn't really want to. It may even include some who turned a blind eye to even worse situations. The thing that gets you when you are in a cult, and is one of the most difficult areas to overcome, is learning to trust yourself either again or for the first time.

"In other words, you have made up your own religion with yourself as "God", knowing what is true and what is not." Something like that yes. I know what is true for me and what works for my life. "It's a "salad bar" religion--I'll accept this belief, but not that one. I'll accept this and this, but not that. I'll pick the beliefs I like and accept them as truth. The ones that dont sit well with me--I will not accept as truth. " Isn't it great to be free!! "From whom did you acquire this authority? " Oh, was I supposed to ask for someone's permission? Gee, here I thought I was all grown up with free will and all, and didn't have to do that anymore.

"you say you where forbid well now they hand tied your ability to find a baby sitter and forced you to chose someone who was in question... or is it you felt pressure to belong and make the group happy and obeyed somone suggestion fearing they will not accept you or your husband would get angry Personal problems over ruled your better judgement and you compromised your childrens safety for twi?" Uh, no, it wasn't about "making the group" happy MJ. Although there was an aspect regarding making my husband happy because when he wasn't happy he could get quite abusive. It was more about the fact that I actually believed (for a time) what was taught. You know, if you don't obey your husband then you do not have God's protection and in a situation such as who to leave my kids with it would mean they didn't have God's protection either. "The fact a twi leader told you to keep quietand you chose to obey their instruction would indicate to me a much more serious problem within the individual who has the precious job of taking care of innocent children." I don't know why I bother addressing you. It is such a waste of time because you have your head so far up your *** you can't see anything but your own s**t. It wasn't about people pleasing, that may be your own problem and your own projections, but it wasn't mine. It was about believing the twisted crap they taught and yes, THAT was a serious problem. One I am thankful to say, I have overcome.

That sad truth is, we cannot watch over our children 24/7, the older they get, the more room they need. We can do our best to teach them and protect them and bad things can still happen anyway. Worse yet, in cases such as molestation, the pedophile does not have a scarlet P to warn us. This is what makes it so unconscionable (sp)when ANY organization or individual covers up for a pedophile, transfers them to another area where they can harm even more children, etc.

"Oh for god's sake! Get real! TWI was recommending these people to keep the kids!" Good point WG. I remember leaving my very young son (he was over 1, but less than 2) with someone in TWI who used a wooden spoon on him for blowing raspberries! I was sooo mad when I found out, I vowed never to leave him with her again. A year and a half or so later, my sister had a baby, I was her coach. We had made arrangements for a very good friend of mine to watch my two boys while I was with my sister (God forbid their father should do it!). A month before the baby was born, this friend left TWI and I was forbidden by TWI and my husband, to leave my children with her. The only person available to watch the kids while my sister had her baby was this very same girl! I did leave my children with her and it turned out okay, but I sure didn't have any peace of mind while I was assisting in the birth of my nephew.

"As for exclusivity, you will have to take that up with Jesus. He said he was the ONLY way to God. " Yeah, yeah, and what exactly did he mean by that? Did he mean we had to worship him? pray to him? pray in his name? follow his example? believe he was God's only child or simply one of many of God's children? there are man possibilities.