Belle

If you want to see first hand what TWI taught leadership to do regarding really helping people, read this incredible story of survival:

There I was

It's not about sexual abuse, but it is about abuse and neglect of someone obviously in need of some professional help.

A couple of snips:

I was going off into a psychotic episode (because I'm bipolar but I wasn't diagnosed at the time). I had had episodes before that went undiagnosed and untreated but since I was in the Word now, my mind was healed, right?

So I bacame a total lunatic and by the time we got to Amarillo, Barq took me to the bus depot, told me the guy behind the counter "was my mother" and put me on a bus to Rochester, telling me there would be people to meet me there. Except, my parents were in Del Mar, CA. In my confusion, I thought they were in Rochester, so off I went on a bus to Rochester.

One of my most vivid memories of that 1st year in 8th corps residence is of this first few weeks at the beginning of the year when we were all falling asleep all the time. One time in Kenyon Hall, somebody was teaching, one of those founding people, (the guy who made wine in his cellar ? George Jess? maybe) but NOBODY could stay awake. People were just nodding off everywhere. He was going on about Abraham went here, and then he went there.... and off I went to Nod.

Gexxald Wxxx got SO MAD that his solution was to make us all sleep less and work and exercise more. I have NEVER been more TIRED in my entire life than during that week when we were being PUNISHED for falling asleep. Oh, and we had to get up early and meet in the circle drive and do exercises, including these things called "rabbits." Somebody showed up in a rabbit costume later on while we were doing those things. ha ha ha thanks for the laugh.

I was up in the Abassador room with a couple other people from my twig and we were moving stuff around and I laid down on the floor and was TOTALLY wiped out. The MOST tired I have ever been, EVER.

Ah but we must PUSH OURSELVES through our BREAKING POINT. And there was the "stride." We were supposed to reach that "stride" as a Corps and were we there yet??? No not yet, gotta get to that STRIDE..

I found Rinse and I started telling him everything that I knew God had showed me. I was manic so I was talking really fast. For some reason I felt it was Rinse I was supposed to tell all this to. He told me to sit on a nearby golf cart and wait for him there. So I sat there on this golf cart and thought "Wow, now I'm one of the cool people who gets to sit in a golf cart" Then Rinse came back with Mot and "Pot Limb". We were still in one of the tents and they had me sit in a chair. The three of them stood over me and started in on the reproof. Pot asked me if I wanted to be there out on the street. Huh? Why would I? Pot asked me if I'd been moking dope. I said I hadn't smoked a joint since 1973. That seemed to be answer enough. Mot started reproving me for what a failure I'd been all year, and I said, "What about how I got Wayne in the class?" and he said "That was grace!"

So then they took me up to some room and I was asked if I knew if there was a place I could go. I used the phone there and called my parents in CA to ask them if I could come home.

You know what's funny? Nobody prayed for me or ministered to me. Here I was at Corps Week with ALL of the MOST SPIRITUAL people on the planet (I say that facetiously) in one place and not one of them thought to pray or minister to their wacked-out Corps sister. To them, I was worthless because I wasn't together enough. I wasntt worthy of being there. Some people say it didn't get really bad until the 90's? This was 1982. Maybe I wouldn't have prayed or ministered either at that point if it was some one else needing it. I'm just saying that we were losing the ministry already by then.

OK, there's a search function in the top right corner of the banner and if you search on the word "offshoot" you'll find more info than you can read in one sitting.

Here are some that may be of interest to you:

One of the more unusual offshoots

How many offshoots are there?

Success of the offshoots

Offshoots...splinters...what have you

Combo, reading the book really is the best way to understand how and why the plan works. Most people find that after being on it for a while, you really don't miss the bread and things that were primarily in your diet before going low carb.

Protein and fats fill you up on less food and they take longer to digest so you don't get the crashes and "OMG, I'm so eff'n hungry" feelings you get when eating carbs. It IS something that a person can easily do for the rest of their life.

Some other similar diet plans are "Sugar Busters", "Protein Power" and "South Beach" - most people learn the basics and then tailor the way they eat to fit with their own food preferences and lifestyle.

I love to cook and try new things, so experimenting with spices, ethnic dishes and fresh herbs is always fun for me and keeps the meals from getting boring and monotonous. If you like to cook, Kaylyn's Kitchen is an excellent resource for low carb recipes. I make her egg muffins almost every week. She's a South Beach eater and here's a link to Pasta Queen - she lost half her body weight on South Beach.

Guys, Atkins is updating their website and they are giving away prizes to people who submit photos and their personal Atkins success story. Details here.

Welcome, Heather!

I hope you find some long lost friends. In the meantime, enjoy some coffee and sweets while you peruse the cafe. First order's always on the house. :)

Okay -- I am weighing in --HAHA

sorta think it comes down to eat less or burn more...

like money---make more or spend less.

This is a great article why

It is so much more complicated than "just move more and eat less". There are hormonal, genetic, metabolic reasons why that doesn't work. It may work for some people, but it is not a blanket solution.

Calories are not created equal - the type of calories one eats is very important to a successful weight loss plan. Different bodies process calories in different ways.

Insulin plays a huge role in how much of our food is converted to fat.

How our cells respond to insulin.

Cortisol and stress plays a part.

The command center for the body's weight-management system resides in the hypothalamus—and it's calibrated to favor the preservation, rather than the elimination, of fat. That's accomplished through the hormone leptin, a crucial player in the brain's weight-management circuitry. Leptin is produced by the body's fat cells and signals the brain to regulate appetite and satiety—and, therefore, weight. If you lose body fat and leptin, it triggers hunger and the urge to eat; if you gain fat and increase leptin, you eat less. The more leptin your body produces, the leaner you tend to be; the less leptin you make, the higher your set point and the fatter you stay.

Researchers have discovered 10 microbes so far that trigger obesity—seven of them viruses. It may be a long shot, but for people struggling desperately to be thin, even the possibility of an alternative cause of obesity offers some solace. "They feel better knowing there may be something beyond them that could be responsible," says Dhurandhar. "The thought that there could be something besides what they've heard all their lives—that they are greedy and lazy—helps."

It's just way more complicated than that. If just eating less and moving more works for you, that's great! It's just not that easy for everyone.

Actually, from what I remember, anyone going into the corps was required to be tested for STDs as part of the physical and medical clearance.

Dot came out and said one was told to get the claims verified with others and they got thirteen I think. They weren't all coming for group counseling, were they?

I did not know about that. You would think that would have opened some eyes and gotten something done to stop it. That it didn't speaks volumes.

They did that and you and your buddies

But the other guy did .. after a long list of things ... Lynn just joked "so how do you like what we're doing with Allen Gym". Icebreaker I guess ... but nothing changed, and I continued for 5 years and that friend was ordained and carried on.

So I guess the point for then and more for now, is just "confronting" is not enough. We trash these other groups like CFF with v2p2 ... but people in those groups should be aware that "confronting" their new MOG on things is not enough. They should not do as most/all of us did the first time around ... and just let the bad stuff continue.

I'd think people want to get info here, on how to deal with these nefarious activities in their current cult. Isn't that the point of GSC?

Telling them that the right action was to protect relationships and comfort more and more victims ... is wrong.

Indeed.... it seems that there should be more that could be done should the same situation be going on today in an organization. Is there, really? I don't know.

Which is why I think the honest answer, to why the abuse (and apparently crimes) continued even after being reported to a ministry executive... is that it was a cult ... which is what I say in the opening of this thread.

As mstar said ... what a mental cluster eff ..HQ was at the time ... no doubt.

I'm not blaming anyone for not saving the whole thing ... but "the ministry" was held above regard for the individual. There was no prince valiant.

It didn't work because of all the information control, intimidation and multitudes of genuinely "good people" who were in TWI. Like weeds tangled up with beautiful grape vines.... it's hard, sometimes, to see the weeds and to extract them from the vines.

Some people were very happy with TWI and wouldn't/couldn't believe something horrible was going on.

Some people questioned things or had private concerns but the "benefits" they were getting from being involved with TWI outweighed those concerns.

Some people were so blinded that they believed the lies and cover up excuses.

Some folks knew what was going on but it didn't affect them directly so they didn't want to get involved.

Any time someone made a valiant effort at stopping, protecting or exposing the treachery, they were quickly and effectively shut down.

What would/should we tell someone in that same situation today somewhere? I don't know. It's much easier to communicate and expose things today thanks to the world wide web, but those people have to be ready to face up to the truth of the abuse going on. As we've seen... not everyone wants to. Even today there are people who cover, excuse and justify the actions of vee pee, craiggers and their henchmen.

But the principle here is a lesson for people in cults in the present ... it is not enough to just confront your MOG ... revising a central story to the old history does NOT help make that point. It encourages folks to just maybe confront and comfort the victims, but never stop the activity. It may make you feel a little better, but it is not the stopping point.

I'm writing because I also have concern for people in cults NOW ... and rationalizing any inaction in the past just blurs the message.

I mis-read your intention, I'm sorry. :) I thought it sounded a little callous and unexpected from you, so I apologize.

Indeed it would be nice to know what to advise someone today who might find themselves in that situation. I guess if we had an answer to that TWI, Scientology and other abusive groups would no longer be around.

Rhino, so as to not derail this thread, I've answered you on your thread. :)

DWBH, you're right. I try to remember that y'all were just kids... kids with no formal training and thrown into some pretty intense, serious and dire situations with little to no training or experience helping people with real live "life or death" situations. It had to be rough and very disconcerting. What vee pee taught sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in real life.... Where's Oakspear? His signature used to say,

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is"

There are some horrible tales of people getting wrong or no professional help for issues that clearly needed it.

I used to wonder how Dottie Moynihan sleeps at night. She has counseled many women raped by vee pee and craig and other leaders and she continues to support and cover for those evil wolves in sheep's clothing.... her husband, too.

Thanks so much, DWBH for this thread. I have more to share, but it's waaaayyyy past my bedtime.

I dunno, Rhino. You're talking about teenagers and very young people with very little life experiences being put in very trying and complicated scenarios.... scenarios with adults who are very adept at manipulation and intimidation.....

Hard to say that... Hard to say I would have done anything different despite my rather bold personality and "in your face" tendencies. Heck, I succumbed to it in my early 20's and I was as rebellious as they come. *shrug* Throw God and the "man of God" profile/pedestal into the mix and I think most rational thinking goes out the window. I know my little brother kept telling my very concerned parents that they would tell me one too many times what to do and how to live and I'd rebel.

He knew me better than I and my parents knew me.... maybe he just had more faith in me than we did. Regardless, it took 10 years for me to do what he said I would and 9 years past when I first considered it but was too .... too.... scared.... too worried... too something to act on what I felt in my gut.

Hindsight is 20/20 and, while it would be nice to think we'd behave any differently, the truth is we probably wouldn't... maybe we would and maybe we could have been the ones to make a difference and that we could have brought TWI to its knees if we had been in their shoes. I doubt it, but it's nice to think it could happen.

Throwing stones this late in the game doesn't really do much good, imo - it is what it is. All we can do now is try to make amends and help as much as we can to heal the broken hearted, no?

All of us are doing the best we can. I firmly believe that.

Rascal, I second Rocky's congrats! And, as a mom, there's got to be great pleasure in seeing your daughter make wise decisions like that. :)

Rocky, actually, I *did* say that. A few of those new marathon runners wanted to lose weight and were shocked and disappointed that they did not lose anything given how much they were running. The one gal who did lose weight was also doing intensive weight training in addition to the marathon training.

There are many, many benefits to cardio exercise and the extensive tests that they ran on the subjects documented some of them - increased lung capacity, flexibility, better blood pressure, less stress-related symptoms, etc.... Weight loss, however, is not one of the benefits of cardio. The link Sudo posted is great for showing the health benefits.

I'm saying cardio is important - just that it's irrelevant when it comes to losing weight. :)

Ron, sorry about your shoulder. Hope it heals up quickly.

I'm not hungry when I first get up, but a few hours later I'll have breakfast of a coupla eggs and some meat, maybe a handful of blueberries. I find that I'm able to eat a small-ish lunch later in the afternoon and then a much smaller dinner meal that way. If I don't eat breakfast then I find that once I do get hungry, I'm hungry all day long.

Sudo, I'd not "force" yourself to eat breakfast but maybe "try" having a little something even if it's several hours after getting up. But, like we've all said here.... everyone is different and we have to figure out what works for us. Obviously you've been very successful with what you're doing, so I'd say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Cool post, Socks. :) Makes sense. Thanks!

Dunno if this fits with the topic but I'm gonna throw it out there.....

We had a guy in our area who went by the nickname "Rudy" and, after many really ugly confrontations with Pau1 Brook$ and Moneyhands - we were told to never call him "Rudy" again - that there were devil spirits hiding behind that name. We had to all start calling him "Bill", his real name.

The poor guy was put on probation quite a few times and kept coming back for more.... He was still in and had just gone 'Way Disciple' when I left.

Well, I went out quietly, but there were waves of unrest and insurgency building up to it.

I was "allowed" to "take a break" from TWI activities and never returned.

You can find a labyrinth near you to walk at this site. I understand it to be a great way to meditate and "quiet the soul". Like Todd, I think TWI is more of a maze.... a maze designed by evil men and women designed to frustrate with dead ends and false turns.

Even though The Way International is losing ground(thank God)there are many many people still lockedin the fist of error,some people will never talk about it but it is there,in nightmares and lost youth and brokenrelationships with family. I make light of things much of the time,but the flip side to that is really serious buisness and I don't likethe thought of people being abused spiritually by this so called"ministry"

All we can do is be here for them. People have to come to their own conclusions and some never will come to see or even acknowledge the pain, suffering, abuse and evil of TWI. It's like that saying, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

KEWL BEANS!!!

Thanks, Love!

as ive often written around here before

effective rites of passage help mark the natural changes of life

and serve to give us permission to move along...transform

but without such effective rites, we continue to age, but do not transform

which is why such a large percentage of adults today live like children

and its becoming harder and harder for children to find wise elders for guidance

i feel that if we can somehow begin to find and remember the important role of story and ritual and rites

we can prepare this generation of children to become those wise elders we seem to lack today

in part, by holding space for them to begin to peer into their own shadows to get used to a more whole view of "self"

Wow, +odd. Dunno how I missed that - or maybe wasn't ready to see - anyway.... Makes sense... I've never thought of rites of passage as permission to transform. I *have* seen it as a "shoving to change" though. "You're 18 now, be an adult" kind of thing.

What rites do you think we've lost today that are the reason adults are acting like children?

Go ahead, pat yourself on the back as being above the fray....real good advice when YOU aren`t the one who is relentlessly hounded, your every post questioned, your veracity questioned, your motives, etc. Ignore these guys and they place the bait for their buddies to take their swings....

Rascal, I don't know who you are speaking to, but I'll bite. You know darn well that I have been the one relentlessly hounded at one time - we talked about it at length over the phone many times, remember?

.....in my case like ..... well we would expect something like that from you...or you are a lying psychotic so what...or well you need to seek psychiatric help to attend to this anger problem with vp because you are a threat to yourself and a danger to your children.... never even addressing the subject of the thread or any other post.

You have some guys that want to shut up anyone who`s experience in twi wasn`t flattering. When one ignores them..they simply find someone new to focus on.

See?? You know it works! You ignore them, they find someone else to pick on - If every person they decide to pick on ignores them, they have no fuel for their fire.... it's really a very simple concept that works.

Damn it, I was shut up for a couple of decades. I don`t think it is fair that I have to shut up here because these guys don`t want what I have to say to have merit.

Sometimes, a bully has to be stopped when ignored they simply escalate the nastiness.

How's that been workin' for ya?

Wouldn't it be better to just report them to Paw and the moderators?

You finally have a community at large who has had enough....and I say, it`s about damned time..

Yup. I've had enough alright. I love ya, but we disagree on this. :)

Very interesting, OC. I don't have anything to add just at the moment, but I will. :) Thanks!

Sorry, Abi, I'm just so "over it" all....

(Don't we have some "just get over it" threads around here? )

Seriously, though, I'm kinda like Twinky - I'm sick of threads deteriorating because people won't just ignore one another - they continue to engage in the same d@mn fights they've been having, like you said, for EIGHT FRIGGIN' YEARS.

They ruin perfectly good threads and I'm just to the point where I don't really give a sh1t anymore. I've begged some people to just ignore each other but they have to get their say in - or the last word - no matter what. I'm tired of trying to get adults to act like adults - it's futile.

I might pass by and look in the window, but anymore I only slide into a booth with my gum in hand if there's conversation that I feel is reasonable and/or fun - I just don't have the energy or patience anymore for the petty stuff.

(((((WG)))))

You know darn well there's gonna be a funeral, so you might as well tell 'em how to do it. You are very important to so many people and very loved. The TRUE GOD - not the god TWI and those "Vine" people worship - loves and cares for you more than you can ever know.

My body donated to science so there's no body for the family to have to deal with. They are to have a keg party and roast - I've given folks plenty to laugh about in my lifetime and I suspect that by the time I'm gone, they will have no excuse for not coming up with something to bring up and laugh at. I want all laughter and no crying allowed.

When my aunt died I sat at her funeral laughing because I knew Susan would have a cow if she knew they were having a traditional funeral for her. She had quit going to church many years earlier and was more into metaphysical stuff. The last thing she would have wanted for her funeral was a "Christian" minister and traditional hymns. BUT, she never told anyone so that's what she got.

It's really helpful for the family, too. It's so hard to think when a loved one dies. Knowing what they would want and how they'd like to be remembered helps ease some of that burden.

WAY TO GO, PAW!!! You have my utmost respect as I know that is not the easiest regimen to follow. (where's that bowing down avatar?)

Rocky, you're absolutely right - we do have to figure out what works for us, personally. I tried that d@mned cabbage soup diet and GAINED weight! Two weeks in a row!! Too much stuff that spikes blood sugar, I guess. I couldn't figure it out at the time but it was the turning point for me to go to a doctor about my inability to lose weight no matter what.

Jimmy Moore has an awesome low carb blog and interviews lots of the prominent low carb doctors, researchers and authors. He also has started a list of low carb doctors so we can find a doctor who recognizes the benefits of low carb and uses it first instead of drugs. Excellent info for us low carb information junkies!

Sudo, if you haven't heard of this Canadian documentary, then you'll find it very interesting. "It is an amazing chronicle of Dr. Jay Wortman and his effort to treat the health problems of an entire First Nation village by convincing them to embrace the diet of their ancestors. As a fellow First Nation citizen, Dr. Wortman knows this means a diet high in fat and specifically heavy in something called oolichan grease, which is like a fishy olive oil." from Jimmy's podcast website.

I agree that exercise is important, but I think weight training is the most important. There is some benefit to cardio, but the benefits do not include weight loss. NOVA did a documentary on average joe citizens training for a marathon and not one of them lost any weight despite all the extra cardio they were doing. Exercise is good for making one hungry, not for losing weight. :)

The Scientist and the Stairmaster: Why most of us believe that exercise makes us thinner—and why we're wrong is a great article on the subject.

I'm actually growing rather fond of yoga, myself.

Do we have a solid answer on this yet?

I think we need some more light in here.

Taubes on the study that Sudo first mentioned in this thread:

Mr. Taubes wrote a provocative piece for The New York Times Magazine in 2002 called “What If It’s All Been A Big Fat Lie?” The article questioned the conventional wisdom about fat, cholesterol and heart disease. He points out that the latest diet study also challenges the notion that saturated fat is bad for you. The low-carb dieters consumed 12 percent of the calories from saturated fat while the low-fat and Mediterranean dieters consumed 9.6 of their calories from saturated fat. All of the diets appeared to lower L.D.L., or “bad” cholesterol, by about the same amount.

“So here’s the simple question and the point: how can saturated fat be bad for us if a high saturated fat diet lowers L.D.L. at least as well as a diet that has 20 to 25 percent less saturated fat?” Mr. Taubes asks.

Rocky, you might rethink some of that when you get around to reading Taubes' book.

That pasta has 29 carbs in one serving after subtracting the fiber - Some low carbers would consider that a whole day's worth of carbs, some a half day's carbs and some would consider it okay as long as it's balanced with lots of protein and/or fat. Way too much for me right now.

Finding a long term lifestyle diet is key, I agree and low carb is easy in that protein and fat are satisfying, take longer to digest and keep you full longer so we don't get hungry as often and it's not the intense hunger that comes from a carb crash. I think people don't realize that "low carb" isn't "no carb". A healthy "low carb" diet contains veggies, fruit and high fiber choices.

Bottom line is finding what works for us personally and keeps us feeling well, imo. I'm insulin resistant along with a few other issues, including diabetes on both sides of my family, so the low carb lifestyle is what appears to be best for me.... a vegan lifestyle is what a very dear friend of mine considers best for her.

Regarding ketosis:

Ketosis, generally, only happens with very low carbohydrate intake and/or with very overweight individuals. It is not dangerous to be in ketosis. Ketoacidosis is what most people confuse ketosis with and ketoacidosis IS dangerous.

Here's what Dr. Michael Eades, author of Protein Power, says about ketosis:

"Ketones... are made when fat breaks down. As you read the words on this page you are producing ketones, but unless you're on this diet or have been fasting, you're probably not in ketosis - the state of having a measurable level of ketones in your blood. Ketones are an intermediate stage of fat breakdown, and not only are they not poison as described by several health writers, but they're used as fuel by most of the body's tissues including the brain. The heart, in fact, prefers ketones to all other fuel.

The body must have sufficient carbohydrate to completely burn for energy all the ketones produced. The diet causes the breakdown of fat, producing an abundance of ketones - especially in the overweight person - but the intervention diets don't provide enough carbohydrate to burn all of them. These excess ketones circulate in the blood and must be gotten rid of i other ways. The body releases them via the urine, the stool and the breath. Since ketones are incompletely burned fat, any that you get rid of without actually using them for energy means you are ditching unwanted fat without having to actually burn it off"

He goes on to say that unless you are a type 1 diabetic ketones and ketosis is not dangerous.

"Dr. Lubert Stryer, professor of Biochemistry at Stanford University and the author of the biochemistry textbook used in most medical schools, says ketones are 'normal fuels of respiration and are quantitatively important sources of energy.' 'Indeed,' Dr. Stryer continues, 'heart muscle and the renal cortex (kidney) use [ketones] in preference to glucose.'

Drs. Donald and Judith Voet, authors of another popular medical biochemistry textbook, say that ketones 'serve as important metabolic fuels for many peripheral tissues, particularly heart and skeletal muscle.'

So if you trust the consensus among medical experts and scientists, you will understand that ketones are a perfectly normal fuel used preferentially by most of the tissues in the body for their energy needs. In fact - except for type 1 diabetics - there is no evidence for the opinion that ketones are dangerous."

***********

I will further second the recommendation for Taubes' book. The link to that an another excellent article written by him are in my first post of this thread. He documents medical study after medical study providing proof that the low carb diet is the healthiest, best diet for MOST people and ESPECIALLY people with diabetes, insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome and many, many other health situations. Insulin is a primary factor in fat production and storage in our bodies - low carb regulates, controls and minimizes insulin production in the body.

The fact that a high carb/low fat diet is what you see so much of is due to political and ego wrangling of not a few people in high places - also heavily documented by Taubes in his book. I can not recommend that book enough - it has really opened my eyes. Dr. Eades, in fact, has a blog entry about Tabues' book, a medical review of it and Taubes' response.