TLC

Articulating debarim

What's that? Fancy word for debris (aka, garbage)? LOL.

The vocab is over my head. I even went to google translate (figuring it must be a foreign one) and couldn't get it.

1. The Bible is not God's primary way of communicating with us.

That may be true (taken in the right way or context.)

However, it may be more sure (also, if understood in the right way or context.)

If God works in our heart to "bring to remembrance" a particular verse or passage of scripture, how is it then thought or viewed that He communicated with us?

The primary way God communicates with us is through Jesus Christ by means of the Holy Spirit.

Which means what, exactly?

The "words" that the Holy Spirit breathes into our hearts are not in any human language. It is as we translate/interpret/articulate those feelings (dabarim) into the language we were taught as children that the "words" become linguistic artifacts.

So in other words, a "linguistic artifact" is a thought?

Pretty fancy name. Sorta sounds like calling the garbage man a "sanitation engineer."

This is how speaking in tongues can genuinely be speaking by the Spirit of God even if it DOES NOT PRODUCE a recognizable human language.

Well, however you got there, I'm inclined to agree with that.

And perhaps that's one of the reasons we are as Crhistians encouraged to meet together. So that we can learn from the "pockets of truth" that others have; so that we can see how God is at work in someone else or in some situation; to help us get a bigger picture.

Spend enough time with Christians from other denominations or backgrounds, and you'll see common threads in how they feel God talks to them or shows them things, or works in situations.

God is bigger than one person, one book, one denomination, one culture.

It might not be a bad idea to think about your neighbor, the person next to you in the pew, the colleague at the next desk - and think (with meekness), how does God work in this person's life, and how can I learn from him? This person has Christ in her (the hope of glory); how does that "Christ" serve the world in her life?

Well said. Thank you.

It makes no sense whatsoever to live in isolation or in ignorance to what is happening around us.

(And the communal situation at HQ was no small issue.)

We often neglect that praxis is more important than doctrine.

We were incredibly arrogant in TWI.

Right on both points.

Produce a language and I'll be forced to modify my post-supposition.

Okay, Raf. I wasn't sure where best to post it, so I put it over here:

Partly for the reason of what I wrote in post #202 here in this thread, and partly for the reason(s) of what I wrote in posts #90 and #94 over in this thread:

But please don't presume what I am not saying. I've never said that everything done now is necessarily SIT, or supernatural.

Furthermore, I haven't indicated that anything done similar to it is necessarily "proof" of something else.

Well, I didn't realize that the posting numbers can (and do) change in a thread.

(consequently, the post numbers referred to above are all wrong... or, at least they were a few minutes ago.)

And after reading a couple of places, I'm still not sure where is a better place to post this, so... I guess it'll go here.

It's odd to me, how the mind and heart work at times. (Or, maybe it's just me.) But, still floating around in the back of my mind is the befuddlement of why many here (at least, it seems like the opinion of many, voiced by a few) have put so much emphasis on SIT needing to be an identified as a bona fide language for it to be the same thing that is referred to in the scriptures.

What is the actual point or purpose of it? (I'm referring to speaking in tongues.)

Isn't the most basic essence of it simply "to communicate"?

When the serpent spoke to the woman (in Gen.3), must we know the language... or that it was via "a language" that could be identified by some supposedly linguistic expert?

How long did it take these supposed language experts to figure out that humpback whales communicate with each other through some sort of verbalization?

Or how a dolphin speaks to another dolphin miles away? Or a bird to another bird? Or any number of other animals to each other?

What "expert" figured all these things out, that it puts them in such a position of trust that if they say or declare something is an authentic "language," the only believable or acceptable form of communication, so that now whatever vocalization is coming out of someone's mouth "must be" reckoned as something supernatural?

Why put so much trust or confidence in them to make that declaration or determination?

I don't get it.

Of course you realize it was never my wish to "waste your time" with any of this.

I doubt that's ever anyone's intent. Besides, we each either do or don't waste our own time. But if we think someone else is doing it for us, maybe we need to take a little more control over our self.

So my friend, (when you have the time) do take a look at the chart I sent. And if this all still seems interesting after that, then do request my book.

Okay, I didn't realize it was just one page.

Doesn't make sense to me, so I sent a PM to you with an email address to send the book. Thanks.

I'll add one thing more to this.

I don't think anybody has ever had it (i.e., Christianity) exactly right since the apostle Paul. Maybe in certain respects he wasn't perfect either. But in doctrine? Of necessity, that man had it goin' on. Even Peter eventually admitted that.

And it seems rather likely that no man will ever again attain the magnitude of understanding that Paul did. Which is probably a good thing, human nature being what it is and the strong tendency to follow after and brown nose or cling to the charismatic shadow of some other man. Instead, pockets of truth seems to be found in bits and pieces across the board, with no one person having it all, and no power or force so great that it is able to prevent more and more of it from surfacing.

Thanks for being candid, TLC:

1) You don't believe that VP had it right

2) You don't believe that Bullinger had it right

3) You don't believe that reformation theology has it right

4) You don't believe that expansion theology [ie Arthur Pink] has it right

Got it.

Unless I'm mistaken, reformation theology and expansion theology refer to one and the same thing. (Some calling it one, some calling it the other.) I think it might also be called unity theology. There's something else called replacement theology that I avoided using, as that term seems to be more egregious to some, who claim it's merely straw to be blown down. But, most people follow after one form or another of one of these theologies, whether they either know it or admit it.

Wierwille spent the vast majority of his teachings, pamphlets, retemories, plagiarized books, etc.

in the Pauline epistles. He heavily emphasized dispensationalism, wherein the four gospels were

"Old Testament...for your learning" in pfal and emphasized it to his grave. Oh, sure....he gave

lip-service to Jesus and the anointed Christ, but anyone who sat it hundreds of his teachings and

corps/staff meetings knows the thrust of his core beliefs.

Heck, if this were the doctrinal forum.....we could delve into I Cor. 1_12-30 and SHOW

that the apostle Paul had the SAME PROBLEMS in the early churches.....ie followers wanting to be

"of Paul" or "of Apollos" or "of Cephas." Yet, even Paul directs them to Christ Jesus.

Sure, you might say....."that's what wierwille did."

But many of us are saying......NO, he didn't.

Yeah, maybe I lost sight of primary goal of the thread, to punk wierwille.

Where was I, thinkin' more 'bout what sound doctrine is or might or should be?

But then, how do you honestly assess or measure how much twi's teachings and doctrine skewed the very essence of Christianity, if the very essence of Christianity is never set forth right in the first place?

I'm attaching a MS Word Document I made which compares the findings of Bullinger, Wierwille, Spirit & Truth, and "my own take" on Biblical administrations. I believe this will help you quite a bit to see precisely where I'm coming from. (And I do hope you can read it well enough with whatever formatting GreaseSpot provides on it's site when I upload it there.)

I'll look at that when time allows.

So it remains that I seem to have found the best of both worlds, so to speak: For I agreed with VP about the 4th and 5th times,

I have yet to find much of any reason for "the Christ Administration" or where it came from, other than wanting to number "the Grace Administration" as the fifth.

Otherwise, you can just begin again by calling that Paradise as the "first time of the 3rd Earth", just as we did with Eden…which is the "first time of the 2nd Earth". I trust that's all clear enough to this point.

Calling it the first implies that there are more to follow after it, which I see no reason for in either the first Eden (before the time of Adam), or the next.

Furthermore, I don't see where a 3rd earth is ever spoken of in scripture, being that there is yet to be a second.

Now, I have another "difference" with both EW and VP. I do not agree with their 2nd division, which they both called Patriarchal. Rather, I see that era (which I call the Time of Ignorance) to involve the events from the "expulsion" from Eden…to also include ONLY the account of the Great Flood of Noah's time.

You not the first or only one to think that. And doesn't Schoenheit refer to it that way?

(it so happens, I agree with the separation, though not on what you've called it, and perhaps not for the same reasons.)

These 7 colors (a different one for each day) are "basically" in the same order as they appear in a rainbow from bottom to top!

If you haven't heard it before, rainbows are not restricted to or comprised of only seven colors.

Numerology can get a bit "out there" if you let it, and blind you to the simplicity of the message.

(kinda what seems to happen with all the Greek research many times...)

I would be happy to email you a PDF copy.

I may do that after a gander at what was uploaded already.

(which won't be before the weekend)

But thank you for the offer.

Are you better now? I'm sorry you thought I was dissing Paul when it was victor paul I was dissing. Kinda makes the point. Hope you don't get sick again now.

It wasn't you alone that I viewed as dissing Paul, it was the entire first post (which seemed to stem from your post elsewhere) and the direction the thread appeared to be headed towards. While I don't believe that VP (or Bullinger, for that matter) had it right, I also don't believe that reformation or expansion theology (which Arthur Pink appear to fit with) has it right.

What made you so ill poor fellow? Pray tell. I await with baited breath the interpretation of your vomitous reaction. Got an attitude? Got milk? :evildenk:/>

Your dissing of the apostle Paul, and the virulency of your post.

Huh? Bullinger never equated the 7 days in Genesis 1 to "correlate" with the 7 Biblical administrations, as a Table of Contents to the Bible. (I did that myself!) And...both he and VP concluded that New Jerusalem was the 7th administration. (But I said that the 7th admin ends at God's throne, and that New Jerusalem is the 8th one (if you keep on counting upwards, that is), which Bullinger called the "Eternal State" and VP, the "Final Paradise", or "Glory Administration").

And---my referencing Bullinger's Number in Scripture was merely to show how similar in scope the numbers 1 and 8 are. And also within my post (above) there is nothing mentioned concerning how Bullinger divided Biblical administrations...and what I said was (very obviously, I thought) different than his rendering.

Are you being funny with me or something...pulling my chain, as it were? (I wish no harm.)

Spec

Okay, perhaps you wouldn't mind laying out the 8 separations (makes no difference at this point exactly what you want to call them, dispensations will work just fine.)

Here's Bullinger's:

1. The Edenic state of innocence.

End—the expulsion from Eden.

2. The period "without law" (the times of ignorance, Acts 17:30).

End—The Flood, and the judgment on Babel.

3. The era under law.

End—The rejection of Israel.

4. The period of grace.

End—The "day of the Lord".

5. The epoch of judgment.

End—The destruction of Antichrist.

6. The millennial age.

End—The destruction of Satan, and the judgment of the great white throne.

7. The eternal state of glory.

No End.

TWI's is different, adding in "the Christ Administration" and then combining the judgement and millennial age.

What's your take?

TLC: I do hope this enough to "get you going". Bless You!

Many here are not unfamiliar with most of Bullinger's work in this area.

So, I don't see or sense anything that seems new or different.

Perhaps you'll get to it in your next post.

Thank you all for listening! If I have "stirred anyone's appetite" along the way (considering just what it was that caused me to leave TWI after serving "faithfully" for over 30 years), then I cordially invite you to inquire further. (It's TRULY AWESOME --- if I do say so myself....LOL)

Okay, I'll bite. So what is your basic premise, or where might you have discussed it here?

I have often thought over the years, the biggest disservice done to people who wanted to know God, who came to TWI, was that they were not taught who truly Christ is.

I'm mostly inclined to agree with this, but not for the same reasons or from the same perspective.

I remember during my time in TWI hearing other Christians, not in TWI, talk about their relationship with Christ.

I always wondered - what are they talking about? What am I missing?

Even back then, it appeared saying or hearing that it was Christ in you was often far removed from actually believing that it is Christ in you.

When I left TWI, the very first thing God taught me was who Christ is.

It was long after graduating the corps when the reality of Christ's presence took on much more significant meaning.

(But for quite different reasons that it appears it might have been for you.)

Many people can know the Bible, preach it and yet still not believe it, not really.

Yup.

It is the Holy Spirit, the Breath of God, dwelling in us,

The living Christ, as I see it.

VP focused on Paul.

It's not what I recall (at least, it's not how I saw it.) Maybe it's somewhat a matter of semantics. But, I'm also thinking of 1Cor.11:1. Paul was Paul. And I don't believe there will ever be anyone that honestly can (or should ever be) compared to him. Following him is one thing. But putting yourself in place of him (or allowing or encouraging anyone else to put you in that place) is quite another. And anybody that thinks they can or should be... well then, there's a problem brewing.

Perhaps if we really understood and followed more of what Paul (who clearly knew and had a personal relationship with the ascended Christ) taught, rather than having been so gung ho and committed to building a ministry structuring itself akin to the church of James and the apostles that were in Jerusalem, there wouldn't have been anything to become so distracted with or that would "fall apart."

It's changing because you're changing. You're exposed to different sounds coming from different languages that you encounter in your travels, in the things you see and hear, in the things you read, or in your natural ability to think and juxtapose different letters and combinations in your head.

That might fit better if I hadn't just pointed out that it (i.e., for private prayer) actually hasn't changed much in over 40 years.

I have been told that your "tongue" can change, well, having SIT'd for nearly 50 years, I have lost track of how many tongues I have spoken. At one point it seemed I tossed around 3 different tongues in the same period of time - not mixed at the same time of course (maybe I was more spiritual then, that's only a joke on my part, only Jesus knows).

I didn't plan on commenting on this, but, given Raf's willingness to allow some of the discussion to continue here, perhaps I will (to see what his take is on it.)

From my perspective, the tongue used in my private prayer life seems more or less unchanged from what it was initially (40 some years ago.) Oddly enough, it always seemed to be something different in what we commonly referred to as a "believer's meeting." Why it changed or changes, I don't know and I don't recall being aware of any effort to intentionally change it... which might raise the question of how or why it's done, if it's not supernatural. Maybe there is one, but I can't say that I've heard of much of a sensible reason or explanation for it. Perhaps Raf knows of one (but then, he probably doesn't care if there isn't.)

In one very real sense, Paul was saying "speaking in tongues (indecently and out of order) doesn't demonstrate Spirit... love demonstrates Spirit!"

I think it easy to miss giving sufficient consideration to the situation at Corinth, which was very deeply steeped in pagan worship and adherence to that which their eyes could see and their ears hear. Intangible spiritual things were a bit of an issue for them (much as it was for the nation of Israel, but from a different angle.) Paul appears to be responding to multiple "tangible" issues before arriving at these "spiritual issues" (beautifully explained and communicated in reasonably simple and "tangible" terms.)

It's no small or easy thing for the mind to adjust its basis for reality to include that which is spiritual, and my take on 1Cor.13 is that aside from the godly (and unselfish) motive brought to light herein, it probably isn't going to happen.

(That's the short and to the point version.)

Prop A was very tentatively worded. I don't get how you can call it a blanket statement seeing as it only talks about how things appear.

It paints one picture of how they all appear to some people.

Maybe that's not technically a "blanket statement," but I didn't give a great deal of thought as to what it should be called.

On what basis do you disagree with proposition A, which makes no doctrinal claims and merely observes and recites a fact?

Partly for the reason of what I wrote in post #202 here in this thread, and partly for the reason(s) of what I wrote in posts #90 and #94 over in this thread:

But please don't presume what I am not saying. I've never said that everything done now is necessarily SIT, or supernatural.

Furthermore, I haven't indicated that anything done similar to it is necessarily "proof" of something else.

Prop A was a blanket statement, intended to catch anything and everything and categorize it as being one (and only one) thing, which I don't see as reasonable.

Bumped up for those interested in re-discussing this.

Hadn't seen this thread before WW.

Just for the record (not to prove or disprove anything), I have heard in years past (early years in the ministry) what sounded to me like some number of very beautiful languages in "believers meetings." No, sure can't begin to tell you what they were or sounded like, but it did seem that several sounded nearly recognizable (one in particular stood out as being quite French in nature.) Living in a highly multinational area still exposes me (not infrequently) to a multiplicity of languages, and I'll say this... I seriously doubt that I (nor very many others) would have any success at telling many (or most) of them apart from a lot of the modern SIT (for lack of something better to call it).

There are at least 3 propositions.

A) Modern SIT seems to not resemble Biblical SIT and does not seem to be supernatural at all, unlike Biblical SIT.

B) God's Power in the lives of Christians no longer applies entirely.

C) Supernatural things happen all the time, and demonic demonstrations of power are very common.

Hmmm...

I'm actually inclined to think that the name "PFAL" might be tweaked a bit off course from the direction Paul wanted to go.

After all, what are the fundamental reasons for even demonstrating God's Power?

Israel seeks a sign, yes? Well, God gave them plenty, starting with Moses. How'd they respond to them? Not so good.

(But that's a long and hairy issue in and off itself, that I really don't have time here to delve into here.)

That said, I disagree with A, don't care a wit for the wording of B, and slightly agree with C.

(But can't figure out where you mught think that puts me in relation to much else of what you said.)

The idea of "tongues of angels" is entirely speculative, since it is not defined in the Bible and only presented as a hypothetical in I Cor. 13:1. We cannot assume that spirit beings require a system of communication that is literally like human communication. When God talks to Gabriel and Michael, does He use words? Does my brain use words when it communicates with my hands to type on this keyboard? Fact of the matter is, we have no idea how angels communicate, and this verse does not answer that question.

Okay, ya stirred me with that one. As odd as it might seem, I think you actually touched on something much closer to the truth (as I see it) than you realize. (However, it could just as easily spin out of control and fly off on a tangent.)

Just how does God (or spirit) operate or work within a man? (Perhaps it's much easier to say how He doesn't.) Not knowing how much time or thought some here may have already given this, or what the more common thinking here might be on this, it's hard for me to say much on it. However, I'll say this. It's not via some language that's known or recognized as some bona fide language by some linguistic expert.

So... considering what SIT was for the apostle Paul... how do you suppose that it got into his head and brain that it ended up coming out of his mouth as some such language?

In other words, where did the "legitimate" SIT that was in the church in the first century initially come from? If from spirit... what spirit? Moreover, how is said spirit "connected" to or able to communicate with the neural network of the brain, that caused the formulation of a language there? (Some will undoubtedly say this is hogwash, and impossible to know. But, I happen to think there may be more in the scriptures that addresses or alludes to how spirit works within the mind than some of you know or realize.)

If the connection of said spirit to the mind of man is not by or with an authentic language (as some here claim that is the only real SIT referred to in scripture), then why suppose that it is only via an authentic language that the mind of man connects to spirit?

How familiar are you with Autistic Spectrum Disorder, Geisha, what the Diagnostic Standards Manual formerly called Asperger's Syndrome?

Love,

Steve

Huhn.

Second time this oddity has appeared in the last couple of days.

Could it possibly be the result of projecting?

Guess I'll have to think about it.

Stay right here.

Dump truck, backing up...

(Evidently I didn't get my post up in time to warn you, MRAP)