Charity

I'm very sorry for the loss of your sister and brother. Is your other sister still battling cancer? I appreciate what you said about emotions Raf. But to make myself more clear, I let go of my belief in god that night because in my mind and heart he again proved to be untrustworthy. Like I said, later I did look at what the bible said about prayer to see what I was misunderstanding about it and from what I remember, answers to prayer came with conditions which I saw as convenient loopholes for a "promise" to become a "perhaps" or "maybe." There is no peace that passes understanding with BS like that.

When I came onboard GSC, learning about the "Absent Christ" doctrine and practice that I had grown up spiritually with while in twi changed my life. That was in late 2022. For months, I experienced a new closeness with God and Christ and during that time, I rested in trusting that God would help my grandson to gradually become verbal. I wasn't doing the Law of Believing crap but simply keeping my eyes on God's goodness, love and grace. There was steady improvement in his development in other areas of his life and I was so thankful for this. During that time, I also spent a lot of time in the Word and was repeatedly "blessed" by what I was seeing. Then, the seizures began. I kept asking God for revelation as to what I should do so that He could heal my grandson. Whatever I thought He was showing me and whatever I knew from the word didn't work, and the seizures became more frequent and of a kind that caused him to injure himself. He was missing a lot of school and we didn't feel it was safe to take him swimming anymore. After one horrible experience when my daughter and I took him to the ER because he had been crying for most of the day, I prayed about every obstacle we faced and for God to please calm him of the terror he had of being there and having the tests done. I knew by the time we left 6 hours later that I no longer believed god was real. But I did go back to the word to study what it had to say about prayer. I shared about this at the beginning of this thread. What it boiled down to, apparently, is that it's all according to God's will and timing which he conveniently keeps to himself. Some called that needing to have faith, but I called it a f*cking guessing game and I didn't want to play anymore. You wrote, "I followed the footsteps of people who walked the path long before I did." That's why I came on this forum because I knew you were an atheist. I also began learning from others as well through the internet. The god I thought was real in my first paragraph is not the god I see in the bible anymore because I stopped ignoring the passages I had always found difficult to accept. Doing this opened the floodgate.

Thanks Raf for answering an older question. I'd define your experience as being an "evolution" where it took time for the result to become obvious - a reality. Mine has been more like a "flood" in that I have taken on so much information in a short period of time from books and the internet. A big reason behind this flood is simply due to my personality type - a mixture of perfectionism and OCD. My intellectual binging for the past few weeks has taken up at least 75% of my life. This is a lot considering I'm retired . This morning, I remembered that the number one reason I stopped believing in god a while back ago was because of his undeniably deplorable character (as shown in Revelation) and his habit of going on vacation when I truly needed him. Learning how the bible contains myths, fictional stories, contradictions, etc. has been fascinating but largely academic to this. So today I am putting on some CD's and tackling my long to-do list.

Thanks!

From the 6:00 to 11:00 mark on the video, an explanation is given for the beginning of Proto-life, but the question is how do they know this for sure?

Thank you for your replies. Since I've already come to the conclusion that the bible was written by men, articles giving more evidence to this should not be surprising to me, and yet they still do have an element of shock to them. Go figure. I guess it's like putting another nail in the coffin while knowing there are many more nails out there that I don't know about yet. However, in order to be reasonable, it's possible that a nail or two might be removed from the coffin some where along the line as well. I've read somewhere that the accounts of god's involvement in the biblical wars were written by men for political reasons like you said Raf. The website below seems to give other reasons as well, so I guess I'm delving into this after all. https://www.historyextra.com/period/ancient-history/history-bible-origins-who-wrote-when-how-reliable-historical-record/

Because of the discussion here about Abraham and Jephthah, I'm watching a video called "Human Sacrifice In The Bible: What Apologist Won't Tell You," and the topic of Abraham's nonexistence has just come up. I did a quick Google search and a couple of sites say, "Most scholars view the patriarchal age, along with the Exodus and the period of the biblical judges, as a late literary construct that does not relate to any particular historical era, and after a century of exhaustive archaeological investigation, no evidence has been found for a historical Abraham." (Abraham – Wikipedia) "Unglauber shows that there is not a shred of independent evidence for the existence of Abraham, much less for any of the events recorded in Genesis." (Reformed Perspective article “Did Abraham Really Exist?) This sounds pretty conclusive. I don't want to delve into it right now, but I'm wondering what the opinions of posters are concerning this.

Well, I'm contemplating evolution for the first time. Watched a video called "The Whole History of the Earth and Life." It began with how the earth came into being and continues to humans evolving. I could see how it was possible in the way it was explained, but I did have a lot of questions when done. Also looking at books as well. So, we'll see how it goes.

Getting back to the topic of Deconversion: Letting go of ones religion, verses that claim God is light with no darkness in him at all or that he is righteous in all his ways and gracious in all his works causes people to overlook, deny or explain away all the many places which show he's the complete opposite. Giving up critical thinking and avoiding cognitive dissonance do not make for a sound mind.

Last comment for me on this topic (hopefully): For someone who says if God truly wanted the burnt offering, then why did he stop it, I think this only goes to show it was the obedience God was looking for. Obviously, if God let Abraham complete the offering, then he would have had to raise Isaac from the dead in order to carry on the promise He made to Abraham. That would have been quite a miracle though - raising the dead doesn't show up in the OT until later when a prophet does it for a widow woman's son.

If that was the true meaning of a burnt sacrifice in this incident, then where is the account of Abraham getting it right and giving up his son for the greater good after the incident? Seriously, show me. What you are parroting of wierwille simply is not true.

I never said God could not change his mind. I showed verses to prove that He could. That was an important point you overlooked. I didn't hear any words of "correction" from the angel. What I heard said was "12 ...Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." This implies that the angel (or God) had doubt that Abraham would sacrifice has son to God as a burnt offering which is why he waited to the very last second to stop him instead of like maybe earlier when Abraham was gathering the wood and getting the fire - even when tying up Isaac would have been a good time. You really need to let go of weirwille's teaching. The account was a test of Abraham's obedience which God apparently needed. I hope he never gives you such a test of your obedience to him.

Judges 11:30 Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, saying, “If you really do hand the Ammonites over to me, 31 then whoever is the first to come through the doors of my house to meet me when I return safely from fighting the Ammonites – he will belong to the Lord and I will offer him up as a burnt sacrifice.” What would have happened to Wierwille's interpretation of the story if someone other than Jephthah's daughter was the first to come through the door? What if maybe a half-beaten-to-death slave or one of the lawless men he hung out with (vs 3) or even one of his brothers who had, along with all his other brothers, previously kicked Jephthah out of their home because he was only a half-brother (and the son of a prostitute to boot) and who hadn't gone into battle that day because he had tripped over the dog and jabbed himself in his eye with his breakfast fork... happened to come through the door first that dreadful day? To make the story even more ridiculous, what if that person wasn't even going out to meet Jephthah returning victoriously from battle but just wanted to get some fresh air. Point being that the vow was whoever came out first, Jephthah would offer him/her up as a burnt offering. Then keeping with vp's definition of a burnt offering, any one of the above-mentioned characters in this soap opera would have had to be given for "total commitment to God's service." You can't make this stuff up!

It took a simple google search to check something vpw wrote and find out he was wrong. He said, "Had this been God's will, as Abraham thought it was, there never would have been an angel needed to suddenly terminate the action because God cannot contradict Himself, He cannot change His will." However, in Jonah 3, it says 1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. God changes his will again in 1 Kings 21:17-29 and Numbers 14:11-20. ~~~~~~~~ Also, after messing up the meaning of Genesis 22 which clearly speaks of a burnt offering, he ends the chapter by bringing us into the story via Romans 12:1-2. "What good are we to God as dead sacrifices? He needs us as living, active sons to be faithful and carry out this work, totally committed to Him until death. By living according to God's Word, we are proved by Him and are "burnt offerings." Considering how vpw required his "kids" in the corps to be faithful and carry out the work of his ministry, totally committed to him unto death, his final words now fall far short of being inspirational.

Going by what is written below, it looks like he kept his vow to offer her up as a burnt offering. Judges 12 4 Jephthah assembled all the men of Gilead and they fought with Ephraim. The men of Gilead defeated Ephraim, because the Ephraimites insulted them, saying, “You Gileadites are refugees in Ephraim, living within Ephraim’s and Manasseh’s territory.” 5 The Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan River opposite Ephraim. On that day forty-two thousand Ephraimites fell dead. 7 Jephthah led Israel for six years; then he died and was buried in his city in Gilead.

Meanwhile, Isaac is looking for some clean underwear.

I tried unsuccessfully to google if such an Eastern Custom ever existed. You may have better resources than google - I hope you success! I checked all 366 times burnt is used in the bible. When I was unsure, I checked the context. Every time it was used with the word "offering", it was about burning something as a sacrifice. "The Hebrew word for “burnt offering” actually means to “ascend,“ literally to “go up in smoke.” The smoke from the sacrifice ascended to God, “a soothing aroma to the LORD” (Leviticus 1:9). Technically, any offering burned over an altar was a burnt offering, but in more specific terms, a burnt offering was the complete destruction of the animal (except for the hide) in an effort to renew the relationship between Holy God and sinful man. With the development of the law, God gave the Israelites specific instructions as to the types of burnt offerings and what they symbolized." What is a burnt offering? by Got questions? One last thing, there's the account in 1 Samuel 1 where Samuel's mother makes a vow to God saying "if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no rasor come upon his head." Comparing how she puts it to what Jephthah says (I will offer it up as a burnt offering), I wouldn't consider them meaning the same thing.

That idea is nowhere to be found in Gen 22. It is something that was permanently implanted into people’s minds thousands of years later. 1. God's commandment to sacrifice Isaac was specifically to test Abraham's obedience. Vs 1 2. The idea that Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead is never stated or hinted at before, during or after the incident. 3. Abraham did tell Isaac God would provide a lamb for the sacrifice. vs 8 (Perhaps he was lying to Isaac, but the fact that God did provide a ram and that Abraham named the place Jehovahjireh meaning "The Lord will provide" gives support to his statement. Vs 14) 4. Even though the angel stopped Abraham at the very last second, Abraham had by then proven he feared God by not withholding his only son Isaac from him. Vs 12 The idea that Genesis 22 was all Abraham’s faith that God would raise Isaac from the dead comes up for the first time thousands of years later in Heb 11:17-19. The writer actually goes on to say that in a way God did raise him from the dead by preventing his death. Having said all this, God’s need to test Abraham’s complete obedience in such a homicidal way shows he’s a narcissistic death-obsessed god. The fact that he pulls a ram out of his hat at the last second doesn’t change a thing.

If anyone cares to read it. https://picturesofsilver.com/Teachings/02genAbe4b.php ABRAHAM - Father of Believing Of Human Sacrifice It might need to be copied and pasted onto the internet.

From Rolling Stones 100 Greatest of All Times - Sons by Bob Dylan

I don't think that means much to a growing number of people who prefer to subjectively read the bible for what value certain parts hold for them. The only difference with them and atheists is that atheists stopped seeing value in any of it. But that doesn't prohibit either group from discussing it.

When I let go of my belief in God and "his word," other than feeling a brief loss over there being no life after death as described in the bible, only a feeling of relief existed. I could stop trying to figure out god, and I didn't have to worry about people going through the great tribulation and other such nonsense. But letting go of God as the creator had a lot of emotions attached to it as I discovered last night. Without having anything to do with the bible, the love that I have for nature and the awe at what are bodies are capable of doing always made God seem real to me. I've decided to stop focusing on what Christians have to say about evolution and their attempts to make it fit with creation. I figure it's better to spend that time learning about evolution for myself. I have heard people who have studied how life evolved as part of their career say there is a wonder to it. So, I took out several books from the library today, none that are heavy reading to get me started.

Thankfully, there are others who contribute to this post. And I figure, any time Chockfull posts, then it's open for replies.

All I remember is that vpw taught Abraham "misunderstood" what God meant. If this was true, God would have known this immediately and yet he waits until the last second where Isaac sees the knife being raised above him to correct Abraham. That teaching was simply to blame Abraham and stop God from looking horrendous. The writer of Hebrews 11:17-19 did not take Genesis 22 figuratively. Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. This confirms that God did tell Abraham to kill Isaac and the mention of it in Hebrews 11 is to draw attention to Abraham's faith which is why he was willing to obey such a hideous command. (A faith, BTW, that believers are expected to follow Heb 12:1) I stand by my previous post that Gen 22 is a ridiculous story meant to teach obedience. Any relationship it has to John 3:16 only shows God is no greater than Abraham in being willing to give up their only begotten son.