Charity

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

Just ignore the chapter break for continuity.

Romans:

Romans shows the need for a savior and concludes all of mankind under dominion of sin. The book starts out with sins people commit, both gentile and Israel. It concludes that even though Israel had Mosiac law they could never live up to it. So the just shall live by faith. The book then moves into what Charles Welsch called an inner section, and I can agree with him. That innersection goes straight into the sin nature itself, the corruption inherrent in all people.

 

Its in chapter 7 that the sin nature is laid bare, fully exposed. No matter how much desire a person had to serve the law of God, no matter how well they knew the law, the sin nature that dwells in the flesh produced evil and it was the law itself that exposed the evil, thus the law of sin and death.

So chapter 8 moves into God's solution to the problem. And it slowly winds out of the innter section back into a doctrinal section by the time we get to chaper 12. Enjoy.

You explain things quite well Oldskool.  Did you enjoy teaching the Word while in the ministry? 

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

I guess logically in the allegory since we have incorruptible seed as the new birth referred to, of the spirit would trace the genetive origin back to the seed.

The new birth is like a seed that is planted. Inside the seed is the new nature connected to Christ, where the Word is written in your hearts.  A virtuous new nature.

This seed has to be watered and tended.  Weeds must be removed.  It must be cared for.  Plants that are cared for by a gardener who is diligent with love produce a greater harvest of fruit than a forgetful or part time gardener, or one that doesn’t weed or feed or prune.

In time the seed of this new man nature along with careful tending produces a bountiful harvest of fruit.

Allegory.

I think the figure of speech is tracing and developing an idea in 3d color so to speak.

I like your description of the new birth being the incorruptible seed and what such a seed needs in order to grow.  I went for a walk a while ago and I was thinking more about some of the things I had posted.  Then, I read your reply after I got back.  What you said about the fruit of the spirit being traced back to the seed is along the line of what I was thinking during my walk.  I had written that anyone, believer or not, could be those things that are included in the list of the fruit of the spirit: loving, peaceful, patient, kind, etc.  Then it became clearer to me what the difference is between a believer doing them and a non-Christian doing them.  It goes back to the seed being the new birth (aka, gift of holy spirit, God's divine nature, new creation, etc.)

Non-Christian can experience and give love, but only Christians can experience and give God's love because it's in the seed of the new birth.  It's like this for each of the fruits of the spirit.  Only Christians can experience the peace that passes all understanding or the joy that comes from rejoicing in the Lord.  Because the fruit comes by way of the spirit, each one is experienced in a deeper, greater and spiritual sense for the Christian.  It's all such great stuff!

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

John the Baptist was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, as was Peter and Jesus’ brother, James. What can we know about them? Turns out, more than ol’ victor was apt to teach.

Paul claimed to be a Jew. He also said he could be anything to anyone in order to persuade them to HIS gospel. Luke/Acts narrates from one POV. It’s the only POV, if you let it be.

I, too, am interested in what the Jews knew, particularly the sects of Messianic Judaism linked to those at Qumran. Are you familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls? Are you familiar with the Gospel of Thomas?

I don’t presume to have any answers. The endeavor of free inquiry itself is often satisfying enough, even if it gives rise to more questions, which inevitably it will. 

Your first sentence made me think of what it would have been like to be a Jew living during the time of Jesus' ministry - to hear him teach and see the miracles he did and be there for his resurrection and ascension into heaven.  Yet many of the Jews stopped following Jesus him because they couldn't accept some of the things he said like in John 6:53-66, while those who were expecting Jesus to literally become their king gave up on him when they saw him crucified. 

I do not know anything about the history of the Jews or about the history of how the Bible came to be, but I'd like to learn.  I'll add them to my bucket list.

3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Back up a verse:

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Renewing one's mind isnt necessarily what TWI says it is. Renewing my mind can be as simple as putting off lying: Im extra carefult to speak the truth. When I mess up and lie, we all do, I confess the sin. I no longer elevate the Church Epistles to the detriment of the rest of scripture. However, it's in the Church epistles where our true, new selves are exposed. It's like looking into a mirror: On one side you have that old nasy nature that's enmity against God, the other you have the new nature thats literally a new creation, thereby giving us a choice to not follow the old ways. The conflict within a person is listed in Romans 7 and Romans 8 given as the other option. 

I was looking at Romans 7 yesterday.  It covers what you wrote above as well as the choice between living by the law which held people captive (for us, the law would have been all of twi's rules and expectations) and serving in the newness of the spirit.  Reading it again now, I'm still trying to understand the last verse where it says,  "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God."  I finally clicked over to read chapter 8 (like you also recommended) and WOW - there's a LOT in there related to this verse.  It's been a while since I've read this chapter - I'll look at it more closely tomorrow.  So cool .

56 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Well, not to give a pat answer, but how God works in our lives is as unique as we are individually. At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them. Ive had visions before that were very vivid. For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it. However, here's the best advice I could ever give anyone on the subject. Have faith/trust in God that if he needs to work in you for whatever reason he will know just how to get your attention. Go ahead and toss all the garbage TWI has on the subject, they are clueless for the most part. That crap about speaking in tongues strengthens your inner man like spiritual weight lifting so you are built up enough to receive revelation...all trash. How on earth can God give something that is given the same measure to us all and then we need to build it up before it works...makes no sense. If God needs you to do something he will get your attention and he will do it in a way that's understood by you. 

You wrote (the underlining is mine): "At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them."  This is so loving and inspiring in sharp contrast to the "in-your-face" and condemning reproof that was given in twi or the "personal prophecy" horror show that some ex-way followers began to practice in an off-shoot ministry.

You wrote: "For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it."  A peaceful "knowing" may well be the key when discerning if what you're hearing is really from God.  There's nothing wrong with being excited about learning the Bible or having fellowship with others who are excited about God, His Word and Jesus.  But as I read Charlene's book, "Undertow" and look back to the time I became involved with twi, it was not "a peaceful knowing."  It was more of a "hyped-up knowing" or the "adrenaline-rush kind of knowing" from hearing about the "man of God," the "biblical research and teaching ministry," the "class etc."  The teachings were great (based on what little I knew of the Bible), but they could also have been called the "opening act" with the main attraction being "way stuff" that came after (including being shown the "incredible" green card."

It is important to listen for and hear that quiet still voice from God.

32 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so as we determine. However, consider how powerfully they walked in the book of Acts...guess what? They didnt have Bibles. Most of them used the Apocryphia for what we know as the Old Testament, including Jesus Christ. Scripture was on scrolls, papyrus, etc..and kept in the temple or Synagogues. The public really didn't have access unless you were wealthy enough to afford your own set, or went to the Synagogue or Temple. Wierwille made Christianity into an intellectual pursuit, while the Bible clearly states that knowledge puffeth up. 

Love trumps it all. Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neghbor as yourself. Love trumps doctrine any day of the week and God isn't bound by our knowledge, or lack of knowledge of scripture. They walked the way they did in the first century because Christianity is relationship based. God is our Father, Christ is our Lord and head. That simple.

You made many good points.  Thank you.  I was thinking of the pedestal thing with twi - it's the word, the word and nothing but the word.  That's why I said I still believed the Bible is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ.  I was going to write "the" important way, but I'm learning there are other ways that are important as well. 

I what you said about love.  It's the whole 1 Cor 13's "but have not love" truth. 

Reading the book of Acts is top of my to-do list especially in the context of what the Jews knew at the time before apostles arrived to teach them or before they had their turn of reading the epistles.  And those poor Gentiles didn't even have the knowledge of the OT.

27 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so as we determine. However, consider how powerfully they walked in the book of Acts...guess what? They didnt have Bibles. Most of them used the Apocryphia for what we know as the Old Testament, including Jesus Christ. Scripture was on scrolls, papyrus, etc..and kept in the temple or Synagogues. The public really didn't have access unless you were wealthy enough to afford your own set, or went to the Synagogue or Temple. Wierwille made Christianity into an intellectual pursuit, while the Bible clearly states that knowledge puffeth up. 

Love trumps it all. Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neghbor as yourself. Love trumps doctrine any day of the week and God isn't bound by our knowledge, or lack of knowledge of scripture. They walked the way they did in the first century because Christianity is relationship based. God is our Father, Christ is our Lord and head. That simple.

3 minutes ago, Charity said:

OMG - I was copying and pasting some of the words you used up above and I somehow messed up your post.  Please resend it to me.

Honestly OldSkool, I looked for your original post before I sent the one above asking you to resend it, but I didn't see it.  I thing it's the scrolling up and down that throws me off.  Anyway, I have found your original post!

31 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Well, not to give a pat answer, but how God works in our lives is as unique as we are individually. At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter other people. Ive had visions before that were very vivid. For me, most time sother people. However, here's the best advice I could ever give anyone on the subject. Have faith/trust in God that if he needs to work in you for whatever reason he will know just how to get your attention. Go ahead and toss all the garbage TWI has on the subject, they are clueless for the most part. That crap about speaking in tongues strengthens your inner man like spiritual weight lifting so you are built up enough to receive revelation...all trash. How on earth can God give something that is given the same measure to us all and then we need to build it up before it works...makes no sense. If God needs you to do something he will get your attention and he will do it in a way that's understood by you. 

OMG - I was copying and pasting some of the words you used up above and I somehow messed up your post.  Please resend it to me.

8 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

TWI has it wrong once again. Fruit of the Spirit are characteristics of the new nature, just as the works of the flesh are contrasted against fruit of the spirit. 

How do we manifest that new nature?  Is it only through the renewed mind which we are responsible for doing?  How does God working in us (as in present tense) fit into this? Phil 2:13

2 hours ago, Watered Garden said:

I am no theologian, nor do I wish to engage in theological arguments. But the best way I know to build a personal relationship and understanding with/of God is through His Word. I strongly suggest getting a hold of a version other than KJV, such as the New International Version, Revised Standard Version, or the ESV. Another thing that helps me is One Year Bible Online. This app provides daily readings selected from the Old Testament, New Testament, Pslams, and Proverbs. You might want to start this on 1/1/2023. There's audio with commentary or you can just read the verses for yourself. Try to edit out all the guano and legalism you have previously learned as you listen/read. 

God bless!

I agree with "through His Word" and I'm glad you share it.  Now I know that the beliefs of twi, that the Bible (as vp taught it) was the "inherent accuracy of God's Word" and that it "fits together like a hand in a glove," are just not possible.  His proclamation that he taught the Word as it hadn't been taught since the apostles of the first century is also impossible.  All of these states are false.   

So what we're left with are the different versions of the Bible which I still believe is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ.  A discussion of spiritual matters using critical thinking and done with respect I think is possible on GSC.

39 minutes ago, chockfull said:

If God and Christ don’t have to get the approval of your overseer in TWI then the relationship is a lot less hindered.

Fruit is an extended metaphor I suppose.  Is that called an allegory?  Maybe.  The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance.  Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there.

Anyhoo back to allegories.

Fruit as an allegory indicates God wants us to pay attention to the farming cycle and plant life cycle.  How does that work?  Repetitive action and key ingredients are met by God and energized and a plant grows up and bears fruit.

So live a godly life and you will bear godly fruit in time.

Sorry if truth isn’t rocket science.

Chockfull said, "The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance.  Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there."  This is so very funny - I'm still laughing because I can still picture it as you described it.  Thanks for sharing it .

In twi, bearing fruit of the spirit is what happens when you manifest the 9 manifestations of the spirit of which SIT was foundational.  In my experience, however, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self-control did not just spring up just because I SIT in my head.

So living brings about bearing.  Makes a lot of sense since living a godly life includes doing the fruit of the spirit (be loving, good, kind, etc.).   So you already have the fruit before bearing more of it.  This brings to mind (using your plant life cycle), is that doing the fruit is like planting the seed and since seed can only produce after its own kind (one apple seed grows into an apple tree which produces a lot of apples), then doing love will produce more love in us.  This is true for anyone, believer or non-believer. 

My question then is how does the phrase "fruit of the spirit" fit in?  It seems to have some connection to the spirit we receive when we're born again.

14 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Like, "Mogadishu kuala lumpur jakarta lo shonta..."

 

(That'll show him not to sleep during corps night teaching!)

 

 

What at comedy! 

It's like that old comforting statement when something goes bad, "don't worry, one day you'll look back on this and laugh." 

11 hours ago, waysider said:

It was scripted and staged. The same thing happened in FellowLaborers at the same time. What a co-winky-dink,eh? There was nothing spontaneous about it. It was all about eliciting control.

Okay, I get it now.  Forget what I wrote earlier about how better it was that martindale did this with the 6th corps instead of having a meltdown and yelling at everyone to get the heck out.

I'm hoping to have a discussion about how God works in our lives.  There are so many verses that tell believers what to do such as walk in love and renew your mind.  My foundation for living a Christian life began with and for 12 years was based on twi's doctrine and practices.  I remember the ministry's phrase that said to "practice the presence of God," but I pretty much took that to mean I was to think about God instead of worldly things which brought me back to something I was to do.  I remember hearing, "you do your part and God will do His part.  What does that even mean.

I know now that it has to do with having a two-way relationship with God and Christ.  It wasn't easy, however, for this to happen in twi because you were so busy doing their work of the ministry, (hold fellowships, witness, run classes, go to leaders about everything) that my relationship with them was way more established than my relationship with God or with Jesus, who by the way, was absent. 

So when I read Phil 2:12,13 which says I am to work out my own salvation for it is God who is working in you both to want to do, and to do, his good pleasure, I wondered what did this all entail and how does He do it.  I'm especially thinking about experiencing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) and living with the power of God in our lives.  

15 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

That does seem like something that's easy to turn into something self-serving.  It's a little like the moment in pfal when vpw talks about giving to charity, and suggests giving the money to Bible research or something, and makes a small grin like he's joking.

It might have done the trick concerning his son.  I'm pretty sure the son had grown up in twi but he did this huge self-destructive rebellion later on in life.  He's now a senior pastor at the church his ex-twi-leader-father started and teaches the same you-can-lose-your-salvation doctrine.  

2 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Apparently there was much spiritual chaos, at least a little too much for Craig to handle, so he gathered all everyone on campus (even the college kids) to meet up in the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and he dismissed everyone in the 6th corps.   This was Sunday, March 7, 1976.    Then he said that anybody who wanted to re-commit themselves to the corps program can do so.   I think he may have passed around a clipboard but I don't remember now.     But I do remember that I wanted to recommit myself but earlier in the day, Craig personally dismissed me in his office, so his offer to the whole corps didn't apply to me.   Then I found out later that a sizable number of people didn't recommit themselves... so that was how that all happened.

I knew someone who was in the 6th corps and he must have re-committed himself because I'm pretty sure he was eventually ordained. 

I hope lcm calmly discussed with you his reason(s) for dismissing you. The way he handled it though (dismissing people one on one in his office) does seem contrary to the anger he was known to show.  If it was going to be done, I'm glad he did it that way.

19 hours ago, OldSkool said:

That mental agitation you expressed likely comes from unrealistic expectations and outright lies foisted on us by TWI, that somehow people are perfect once they "renew their minds". Thats all religous garbage that gets mixed in with the law of believing. So TWI creates a false reality with people playing their roles in fantasy land. Give yourself time and just learn to enjoy the process. You are here at this juncture because you want to be closer to the Lord...and you are drawing nearer and he is drawing nearer to you. I would say you are on the right path.

Oh----avoid offshoots like the plague. I made that mistake when I first left TWI.

1 Thessalonians 5:21

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

 

Thanks for your whole post OldSkool.  It was nice of you to let me know it was coming after you got home from work.  Concerning the above portion of it, I have questions around the renewing your mind which I'd like to bring up at another time. 

I do want to be closer to Jesus and GSC is helping big time with this. 

About the offshoots, sorry, but I've already been there and done that with 3 of them (Living Hope, The Living Truth and Spirit and Truth).  One of them now teaches we are no longer saved if we make the decision to deny our faith in Christ and walk away from God.  Their statement of belief says, "Faith implies obedience (James 2:14-26). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must obey. We are required to maintain faith unto the end (Hebrews 3; 6; 10) in order to enter the Kingdom." In other words, we are required to maintain obedience unto the end..."  One shared some "political" views in an interview about his ministry which I thought was wrong for a minister to do (imo).  About another one, I find their REV bible useful at times so I refer to it along with other versions.

1 Thessalonians 5:21

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”  Great verse.  It would be so helpful to know, understand and believe this verse before getting swept up and pulled under by twi's early love bombing and indoctrination into pfal.

20 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Hi Charity,

we all mean well and want to help – and it’s easy to feel overwhelmed with the good vibes and advice from well-wishers…so I’m just saying go at your own pace…don’t feel like you have to report back to anyone or give a progress report

 

Morning T-Bone,

Thank you very much for all you wrote (and the others as well).  I'll take you up on the above advice.  My heart still feels heavy, so it looks like it's going to take some time to work through all this.  I will still reply on other issues of topic as I still enjoy reading the posts.

On 12/6/2022 at 12:40 AM, WordWolf said:

If you're interested, there's threads where we play games. 

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/forum/14-movies-music-books-art/

Read "how to play the game threads" and the first few posts of any thread, and the last page or so, to get the rules, general play, and where we're at now.  You can choose to join any thread, all of them, or none of them, or join one and then just stop posting on it, as you see fit.   The only catch is that play is on "the honor system" - we agree not to cheat. (Explanations are on the threads.)

You guys are more fun than a barrel of monkeys! 

5 minutes ago, fredgrant said:

There are some people who believe that the Roman Catholic church has some traditions and concepts that are not rooted in scripture.  A good starting point for evaluating spiritual advice might be, "does scripture matter?"  Oh my goodness, then you have to ask, "what is scripture?"  
I haven't seen the concept of limbo in what I believe to be scripture.  For now I think of of it more as a dance you do trying to get under a stick.

Yeah, I could never get very far with that.  Amazing though how low some people could go.

14 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Yes I think it was.    Maybe that's why so many were removed that first year, myself included.   Too afraid to leave?    I was.  Too afraid to accept this wasn't really for you, but afraid that something bad would happen if you left on your own.   I was.   No matter... Craig made the decision for many he simply let many of us go.  (for various reasons).     Now after that I stayed a few years more but nowhere near the level of 'corps commitment' or 'loyalty to the corporation' as some may say.    

I hope he did it "in private" and without speaking lies or pushing fear when he told others in the corps about why so many were no longer in the program.

15 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Its really interesting to consider WHY wierwille wanted people to be loyal to him. Im sure money was at the root of his demand for loyalty...I mean...wouldnt want those dollars escaping his grasp...

A short time ago, 2021 somewhere, I prayed and meditated several time about joining a church, possibly taking in a few sessions up at CFF, or perhaps starting my own thing....at the end of that time of meditation I realized that the book of Acts shows us Jesus was vitally involved in their lives on an individual level. So...I prayed and basically told the Lord that I didnt want anything with my name on it, or a 501-c3 chartered in my name...I told him that I would do whatever he needed but I wouldn't lead anyone to myself, but instead I would point the way to Jesus Christ. Ive been really at peace ever since. So, I really dont get the whole loyalty thing...loyalty to wierwille, loyalty to craig...who needs these bozos.

Obsession with having power, pride (the need to have an adoring following) or a desire to have grads fellowship together so they could become rooted and grounded (or indoctrinated) in what he taught in pfal, could have been other reasons for wanting loyalty.  I don't know if vp gave himself the title of "the man of God for all times" (not sure if the "for all times" are the exact words), but he certainly didn't stop people from saying and believing it.

I can see how your decision on how to help people would bring you peace.  It makes me peaceful when reading about it. 

On 12/5/2022 at 10:25 PM, T-Bone said:

oh, how romantic - two posters passing in cyberspace  

ok that was another attempt to be funny - not coming on to you...just thought you needed a little more friendly support...like any charity case...

"oh my God he won't stop !!!!! where's a moderator when you need one?"  

love and peace

T-Bone

Cute post T-Bone.  Normally I your sense of humor.  I wrote a little while back about how your post on page 18 cracked me up.  I was just a little slow on the uptake on the poster girl joke - actually, I think a snail would have been faster at getting it.

love and peace back to you

Charity

A merry heart is good medicine

8 minutes ago, oldiesman said:

Limbo.   According to Roman Catholicism it's the place where unbaptized infants go, and some say the just who lived before Christ.    I heard that it actually is a level of Hell, but with no punishment.   No punishment but missing out on the Beatific Vision.   It was that way for centuries until Ratzinger discontinued it in the 90s.     Many traditional Catholics don't consider him a valid pope, but that's another story.    Now is limbo as being a level of hell, just another way of saying "the grave", "soul sleep" until the great general judgment?     I believe we will find out!

Quick comment.  Limbo sounds better than purgatory.  I've heard that the need for baby baptism because of "the original sin" was to keep people in the Roman Catholic church.

4 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Hi Charity,

I’ve found there are two well-known models for dealing with grief and loss. One is from Elisabeth Kübler-Ross a Swiss-American psychiatrist and a pioneer in near-death studies. She theorized there were 5 stages of grief, but her studies were with people who were dying (terminally ill), not people who were grieving over the loss of a loved one.  In her 1969 book “On Death and Dying” she proposed the 5 stages of grief and loss:

1. Denial and isolation

2. Anger

3. Bargaining

4. Depression

5. Acceptance

 

I think there is some merit to her work although there’s a strong consensus among psychologists that people who are grieving over any kind of loss do not necessarily go through the stages in the same order or experience all of them. 

The other model is from George Bonanno. His research is noted for contradicting Kübler-Ross’ 5 stages of grief. As a professor of clinical psychology at Columbia University, he conducted more than two decades of scientific studies on grief and trauma, which have been published in several papers of peer-reviewed journals in the field of psychology. 

His studies came out of several thousand subjects and included people who have suffered losses in the U.S. and cross-cultural studies in various countries around the world. His subjects suffered losses through war, terrorism, deaths of children, premature deaths of spouses, sexual abuse, childhood diagnoses of AIDS, and other potentially devastating loss events or potential trauma events – such as losing a job, or one of the parents losing custody of a child through divorce, loss of a romantic relationship, loss of a pet, losing faith in one’s religion. Bonanno’s findings indicate that natural resilience is a part of the human psyche, and that there are four possible paths one could take in dealing with grief and loss. The four trajectories are as follows:

Resilience: "The ability of adults in otherwise normal circumstances who are exposed to an isolated and potentially highly disruptive event, such as the death of a close relation or a violent or life-threatening situation, to maintain relatively stable, healthy levels of psychological and physical functioning" as well as "the capacity for generative experiences and positive emotions".

Recovery: When "normal functioning temporarily gives way to threshold or sub-threshold psychopathology (e.g., symptoms of depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD), usually for a period of at least several months, and then gradually returns to pre-event levels".

Chronic dysfunction: Prolonged suffering and inability to function, usually lasting several years or longer.

Delayed grief or trauma: When adjustment seems normal but then distress and symptoms increase months later. Researchers have not found evidence of delayed grief, but delayed trauma appears to be a genuine phenomenon.”

 

for more details on the above see   Wikipedia on Grief    and   Wikipedia on George Bonanno…some other books I found helpful:

 https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinders-Gail-Sheehy/dp/0688006485

https://www.amazon.com/New-Passages-Mapping-Your-Across/dp/0345404459

https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy/dp/0380810336

~ ~ ~ ~

we all mean well and want to help – and it’s easy to feel overwhelmed with the good vibes and advice from well-wishers…so I’m just saying go at your own pace…don’t feel like you have to report back to anyone or give a progress report…be unapologetic - you do you cuz that seems to me it has managed to work out well so far in what you've shared here. 

~ ~ ~ ~

Comparing experiences, strategies, therapies is important for the obvious relatable reasons – but I think we have to allow for our own uniqueness…individuality or we might set ourselves up for disappointment.

I recall what might be considered my first “romantic kiss”. I was in the seventh grade…in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot. Classmates in the school yard can spread gossip almost as fast as announcements given over the PA. The word was out, a pretty Italian girl, Katherine thought I was cute. After being egged on by my friends we walked over to Katherine’s group…Like being in a car wreck I vaguely remember jumbled up bits and pieces …the sequence of words and physicality elude me…she was taller than me…as she leaned forward and lowered her head  – her slight smile that revealed her braces changed to pursed lips…as our mouths touched I felt flushed like I was doing something forbidden in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot…I don’t recall any dreamy feelings, hearing a crescendo of music or any of the other stuff I’ve witnessed on TV or in the movies during a romantic kiss scene…one of those confusing and disappointing moments in life I guess…anyway…my point is

Maybe we learn what to expect in grief from how it’s portrayed in movies and TV shows –  the predictable five-stage process seems to be an often-used trope. Plots that use 1 of the 4 trajectories are unpredictable and exciting. For “survival techniques” I like to mix it up. Seeing how someone manages in real life or in a movie is helpful – sometimes I do want a template if I don’t know what to expect – maybe some guidelines. I also like to be encouraged - reminded we have something inside that’s really tough…an indomitable spirit…maybe grieving involves some other – unexpected feelings too – like relief, the worst is over…or even some positive unexpected mood shift – the joy of victory – surviving…building self-confidence…entertainment, books, music, art are good for escaping…sometimes they can be inspirational and offer some practical tips.

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There’s something relatable for survivors of a pseudo-Christian cult in the conversion of the apostle Paul.

Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia

Galatians 1 NIV - Paul, an apostle—sent not from men - Bible Gateway

Saul (Paul) knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand. But after the Lord Jesus Christ knocked him off his high horse – Paul had to take time to recover…process…reevaluate all he knew of the Scriptures…something was missing – Christ. We read in   Acts 17 NIV - In Thessalonica - When Paul and his - Bible Gateway

When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue.  As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,  explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said… 

Paul being familiar with the Old Testament – was now looking at it with fresh eyes!

For folks who are still into God, Christ, and the Bible after surviving a pseudo-Christian cult, they owe it to themselves to give their faith a fair shake and work on removing the pseudo-Christian-cult-colored-glasses. Reexamine the Scriptures and doctrines with fresh eyes. Grease Spot Café is cool for that.  Notice the wide range of beliefs and opinions of the clientele. 

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On a personal note, I’ve mentioned before how some personal issues and the TWI-lifestyle might not be a good fit. I’ve battled with depression before I got involved with TWI. But it wasn’t until a few years after I left TWI – at my wife’s urging that I went to a psychiatrist. One of the best decisions I ever made.

Love and peace

T-Bone

Thank you T-Bone for your godly love and for connecting with me.  I'll post you some thoughts tomorrow as the Sandman has arrived.  Sleep tight everyone.