Sunesis

It seems to me, most of the ones deemed "weak" were those who were high spirited kids, those a bit outside of the "9 dots." They were those who wouldn't fit into TWI's 9 dots. They were not good TWI stepford wives.

I was asked several times by high up leadership when I would walk and fit into the 9 dots. I would think to myself, probably never...

TWI's attitude of sending people off to areas or doing challenges because they wanted to see if it would make them or "break" them is truly reprehensible. They should have been thankful for what they had instead of seeing who they could destroy and throw out.

Anyone in my book, who gave up their "normal" life to do the corps had something wonderful in them. Of course, what TWI perverted that goodness into in many of them is another story.

Keep sharing HCW.

Yes, LCM did ride the bulls - I'm pretty sure more than one time. He hurt and screwed up his back because of it - although he didn't tell many people that. He did tell me that little tidbit though.

Satori, your analysis is just excellent. Especially why, in the situation HCW was is, one wouldn't question the leader. See, leaders did and took, dumbsh#t risks like this all the time. It was nothing new.

Also, what kind of medical care did RW and others get? I knew RW was recuperating at Emporia and was so glad when I finally got to see her at H.Q. But the victims were kept kind of incommmunicado. I would imagine the leadership to their faces seemed kind and caring and concerned - why? So there would be no lawsuits. But I doubt any of them cared about these "losers" who screwed up their LEAD experience by their lack of believing.

By the way, HCW, did Donnie stay on there? Were there any repercussions for him?

Thank you HCW. Please continue - this is the first time I've ever heard the details.

I believe CG has a very sadistic mean streak. I saw him verbally devastate a young woman from Europe during corps week at HQ one year. She had had a bit too much to drink one evening, as they had been celebrating another European believer's wedding. The party, after the wedding went to a local St. Mary's watering hole that evening. She was pretty plastered and didn't want to leave the place so they just left her at this bar.

I was out that night at the same bar, and waited until closing to bring her home to H.Q. I was not going to leave her with the townies leering at her. I don't know who told on her - probably some of the wedding party people who left her, but PL and I were told the next day to be in the courtyard of VP's house the next morning.

I went there clueless, and there she was with CG, her leader, and PL, the corps coordinator at that time. Well, first CG yelled, then lowered his voice and hissed saying awful, sick, destructive stuff about this woman. The thing was though, usually, people calm down after a few minutes, but he ended up going on and on and on, and literally hissing at her for almost 45 minutes. I started wondering, what the heck is going on here? All of a sudden it dawned on me, he is enjoying this!!

I watched in horrified fascination. I have never, in all my years in TWI, seen someone as verbally torn down as this woman was - it was evil, just plain evil. Even PL was mortified - and she's hard to do that to.

After it was over, the woman went away in tears and PL took me aside and said, go talk to her. I looked at her incredulously and said, what could anyone possibly say to her. She told me to go talk, then send her over to PL at noon.

I spent the morning with her, got her back to some semblance of normalcy, then PL took over. They became great friends.

Anyway, I was glad I never had to serve under him, and was glad God let me see the sick side of him about a year before POP.

I got in TWI in Rye when he did, and he was my limb leader in college. He was always cold, unfriendly and aloof. Why did he get worse? Well, it was always in him, it just took a mentor to bring it out.

I always think of a hissing snake when I think of him.

HCW, I was a very good friend of RW. What they did to her was unconsionable. DW was not truthful. She did not have a guy in the room with her. She took her bottle of pain pills. She was thrown out of the corps, left with another guy, went to the limb of Indiana, they didn't want her around. She was supposed to drive east by herself to her brother's in CT. She was devasted. She had a history of suicide.

How they could chew her out, kick her out, then the limb let her go - boggles my mind. She got as far as Columbus, OH (the boy she dropped off at the Indiana limb was from KS). Since we were close, he told me the next year at the rock exactly what happened.

Anyway, she goes to the hotel right here on Rt. 33 and Grandview and committed suicide with her bottle of pain pills (she still had great pain from the LEAD accident) in room 34, I believe it was. I think of her everytime I see that place. There was an article about it in the Columbus Dispatch. My parents asked me about it.

If it makes you feel any better, when I learned the news, the next day after lunch I pulled MF (the corps coordinator aside), and asked him how he could have let her go like that? They knew her history. He didn't seem too perturbed. I was very angry, looked him in the eye and said, her blood is upon your head, and then walked away. He never would talk to me after that.

You're right, Mark, maybe "white supremist" was too strong a term. Liberty Lobby has a whole hodgepodge of groups unders its umbrella. I tend to think it was the conspiracy theories VP was really interested.

Nice post and concepts socks!

Hope R - I've read about that book, I must read it.

Yes, HCW, I remember how he talked about how he hated blacks because one had killed his brother (hit and run I think?). He talked about how it was Claudette who changed his attitude.

Exie, I think it was both - birds of a feather flock together. LCM may have been leader but CG was probably VP's best friend - I almost think moreso than HA, CG took HA's place, they were "peas in a pod." I think they both had this interest, discovered it and went on from there.

I used to visit HQ in '71 while still in high school, we had moved from NY to Columbus, so it was an easy trip. We knew people there, would hang out in friends' units, etc. I had seen some spotlight magazines at one time - I forget exactly where or when - they were more like large pamplets. That's why when we got our new "secret constitutions" and there was the Spotlight subscription form, I thought, oh - nothing really about it, but oh, yeah, I've seen this before.

I think Igotout put a copy of the back cover here in a thread once - I think he still has his also.

I had always wondered where VP got all this "top secret" "heavy" government info he only shared in the advanced class. It wasn't until I read the book years later on staff that everything fell into place.

Also, quite a few of his top guys were avid readers of Soldier of Fortune Magazine - you know survival stuff, etc. I read it for awhile on the recommendation of one Rev. while on staff at hq. VPs bodyguards were sent for training at one of these militia camps in the southwest. I know they were thrown out of one, and ended up training at another. Just, a lot of b.s. stuff went on.

Watered Garden, yes, let's not forget some of the women clergy could be just as bad as the men or worse. I have to know, what's was Ms. 4th's initials? I knew them all, I could make some guesses.

Johnny Lingo - you were one of the nicest, sweetest men I knew with a huge wonderful, kind heart for people. You were just a big loving person who played harmonica and wanted to serve God, so don't take it personally when I too wondered how in the heck you got ordained! You were not of that ilk at all, and still aren't. Your story of your ordination under the big tent has to be one of the funniest things I ever heard - you should share it if you feel so inspired.

Wordwolf, to answer your questions, why yes, yes I do.

George - thanks. While on staff at HQ, as an avid reader, I had found a great book at a bookstore on the subject of these groups - it was an eyeopener. It was about these groups in general and how the government was going after them - a lot was in there on the Liberty Lobby. I started putting it together on staff. That's when I casually asked my friend who worked with him and in the home if she had ever heard of Liberty Lobby. She said sure, VP gets his tapes and has the hotline he calls. I casually thanked her and thought, now I get it...

Oldies, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

I know, we went around this before, we both disagree. We probably always will.

Every corps, especially with the 6th, once the ranks swelled from a handful to the hundreds, had a few guys who were kind of picked, and were being "groomed" to be leaders. They were in every corps, we all knew who they were. To a young man, this can really swell the ego. Many of these people became top rated jerks.

But, most of the corps, those who would be twig leaders, those who were not picked - the vast majority, who had no aspirations to "top" leadership, were some of the finest people I have ever met. The majority were fine people. Those who were entranced with the dangling carrot, the brass ring, of eventually reaching "Rev." status, would do pretty much anything. Many of them put on quite an act.

I think it all came down to who was chosen, and who wanted the title "rev." bad enough. The Rev. carrot is very important, because that was the top, and that was what many young men strived for. I cannot tell you what an impetus that was for so many men - and they would do whatever it took to get it.

Also, after graduating from the 7th, I was on staff at Emporia. I got to watch the evolution of the corps program. By the time the 12th corps got there, I felt truly sorry for them and did everything in my power to make their lives easier.

But it was out on the field when the graduated 13th corps arrived. I was shocked. These were the corps who had been trained totally under LCM after VP died. The legalism and corps nazism really was true. I really could not comprehend what had happened.

One guy, I finally told him, stick your idiotic "reproof" where it don't shine, you have no idea what you're talking about, and I told him I wanted nothing to do with him anymore and would not help him - I was not going to church with him. I think 13th corps was a pivotal corps, as far as the nastiness really coming to the forefront - courtesy of LCM as he descended into his darkness. They simply reflected him.

Just my 2 cents.

I've posted this before, but will do so in condensed form.

Why did VP have this stuff? Because he was a member of the Liberty Lobby, which also printed a magazine called the Spotlight.

The Liberty Lobby is an organization based in Washington D.C. that is a political "front" for White Supremist groups. It is the "respectable" political umbrella for these various white supremist organizations.

7th corps, remember our "secret constitution" that was passed out to us? I still have it. Right on the inside back cover is an order form to subscribe to the Spotlight and membership in the Liberty Lobby.

All his advanced class tapes regarding the Illuminati, Trilateral Commission, etc. - the "heavy" stuff that was taught, were tapes that came from the Liberty Lobby.

VP also had a "hotline" number he could call with all the latest conspiracy updates. This came straight from someone who worked closely with him. Remember Malpack? Head for the hills? We must stand or our country is going to fall? All this was brought to you courtesy of the Liberty Lobby. VP then taught it and acted like it was his revelation.

Remember the Jim Jones suicides, how it was really done by the government, etc.? Thank you Liberty Lobby!

Remember when Wheaties Box and Olympic star Bob Richards came to speak to us at corps week one year? Gee, he was the Populist Party (they are the political arm of the Liberty Lobby) presidential candidate that year - what a coincidence he would take time out of his busy schecule to talk to us and schmooze with VP.

Those of you who have those books, one of them, the Myth of the 6 million, or 13th Tribe is only published by the Liberty Lobby's bookstore.

VP was a white supremist, but it was not something he spoke about in public. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble. Research the Liberty Lobby.

I knew her very well. CF is one of those people who managed to be at TWI, but kept one foot in reality. We were always cracking jokes about the boneheaded leadership at HQ - no one was immune. I think she probably just felt like going to a movie - something not so PG and TWI approved.

Houseisarockin - I'm game!

Listening to doubletongued wayspeak, after being out for so long is truly bizarre. They really do have their own little language. Try talking like that at work! See what happens...

Well, if I were an advanced class grad, the phrases "eligible" for the "work-study" program in the upcoming advanced classes would not be a blessing - in fact, it would send me a huge red flag! In fact, I think I'd start looking for an excuse why my calendar was full those two weeks.

I imagine, they'll have the grads "serving" and "blessing" the new students. In other words, TWI will save money by putting the current A/C grads to work. I bet it will be "mandatory" for the grads to attend.

I thought they had staff for that?

Interesting question Def, about those who are not found in the book of life being thrown into the lake of fire. I would imagine, if someone is not in the book of life, he is in the book of the dead. Who are those already dead? If they are not written in the book of life, it is because they are already dead. I believe we are not talking about "clay" here. Good question, I will think more on it.

CKnapp, I respectfully disagree. I believe, as the Word says, Satan was second in command with God until pride brought him down. I do believe his goal is to be worshipped as the most high. He and his minions are no longer free to roam around the planets - this is his base of operations. He is the prince of the earth and the air. This is his domain, he can do with it as he will. That is why Christ came to save us from his dominion and power. We may be on this earth, but we are no longer his.

I think Hitlers, and others throughout history who enjoy slaughter and destruction are Satan's trial runs for the final showdown.

Sometimes, there are people who are far beyond simply devil possessed. It is as if they are from another planet, an alien being. One of Hitler's goals was creating a new race of Gods. It wasn't just about supermen. A little bit of Satanic inspiration there?

Hi Cknapp, no, I believe they will have no judgment.

Isa 26:14: "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore has thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish."

"Deceased" is the word Rapha, which some scholars believe is a reference to Nephilim. There is no resurrection for them.

Also, the verse in Dan. 2:43: "And wherease thou sawest iron (nephilim) mixed with miry clay (man-adam), they (Nephilim) shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

You still get some Nephilim DNA slip through occassionally. Nephilim are the tares that will eventually be weeded out. Even though they have mingled with men, they do not cleave to men - they hate men. I believe it is they who carry out Satan's plan on earth causing large scale destruction and misery (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other great destroyers through history).

I think the mingling of the seed of God's created angels, with the seed of human kind - God's wonderful new creation - is an abomination to God. Nephilim truly are seed of the devil. They cannot be rehabilitated. Just as a Bundy or Dahmer can not be rehabilitated. They love beauty, and they love the evil they do.

I think Nephilim are what is meant when in Genesis, we are told of the conflict between God's seed and Satan's seed - I will put enmity between your seed and thy seed.... It continues to this day.

I believe the only "people" thrown into the lake of fire, if one insists people will be thrown there, are nephilim - those of iron - not human. God's crown of creation, humanity, will all be saved, maybe not all at the same time period, but eventually, in different time periods, in different ways.

When all is said and done, at the end, earth, and its story of God, the devil, good and evil, mankind, nephilim, Christ, Triumph - all of this will be the epic of the universe, like the tale of the ring.

Once I understood Nephilim, everything made sense and fell into place.

What a wonderful post HC - thanks.

Hi Cknapp. I've had no involvement in TWI or any other offshoots. I have no idea what Scheonheit has taught.

It is written - I will look it up later, where the nephilim are not resurrected. They are not human. They were not "created" by God, as was the angelic host, spiritual beings, and humans. Resurrection and new bodies is for humans. The fact that God's created fallen angels, under Satan's dominion, left their habitat and mated with humans and bore these monstrosities is one of the reasons God sent the flood. The human line was almost totally corrupted. The Bible says the last days will be like the last days of Noah.

I believe there will be another eruption of these beings. I believe many of the "gods" people worshipped in the pre-flood time were these fallen angels who roamed the earth or their offspring and took the woman they liked. If you look at pictures of some of the kings of Sumaria, they are absolutely huge.

I have even wondered, since Satan had fallen from heaven, and his domain is now the earth, if what Eve saw in the Garden, that made her want to sin so as to be like a "god" was the beauty of these fallen angelic creatures she had seen. Maybe she and Adam felt they were missing out on something and wanted to be like them.

The Bible says, after the flood, there was another eruption. As when coming out of the promised land the Israelite spies saw them and were grasshoppers compared to them. Also, Israel was commanded to wipe these people out, including the Cainanites. I never understood why, in the OT God was always having certain people destroyed - now I understand, it is because they were nephilim. I do believe, there are certain people today and in the past, those who commit atrocities, come to great power, commit mass murder and enjoy it, who are descendants of these nephilim - those who Israel disobeyed God and did not destroy.

Read the book of Enoch. He is quoted many times in the bible and N.T. It was commonly known, read and believed - he was a great prophet. Of course, as the Catholic Church came to power, they effectively had almost every copy destroyed. Enoch is the one who pleased God and God had translated.

There's a lot of stuff. I think the church is having an awakening in this field.

This is going to sound crazy, but from my research on Nephilim (the seed of iron that cannot mingle/cleave to man's seed - clay), these are the people - the genetic descendants of those who left their first estate and corrupted the human race, who the lake of fire is reserved for.

Daniel (or Isaiah - I'm at work now, can't look it up) talk about these people whom there is no resurrection for.

These hybrids, so to speak, of Angel and man, this despicable thing that was done, the corruption of the human race so that there could be no savior, these are the tares who must be winnowed. The ones who committed this abomination and left their spiritual habitat and estate are the ones in chains whom Jesus went and preached to. They and their offspring are doomed.

Once I started studying this, it became very obvious - God's wonderful creation - man was created to be with him. ALL knees shall bow - no human exception.

Was Hitler a nephilim (the word doesn't just mean literal giant), was Stalin, was Ted Bundy?

There are just some acts that are so despicable that go beyond possession. I read a book a few years ago by the man who started the FBI behavioural profiler unit and has interviewd many serial killers. He said, the only way to describe them, is they are like aliens - we humans cannot comprehend them. Apt description I think.

The spiritual war is God, v. Satan and his corruption of mankind, which God had to send a flood in Noah's time. Why was Noah saved? Because he was perfect. What was perfect about him? He was the only person left whose genetic line had not been corrupted. If Satan could have corrupted all human beings, which he had done to that point, the promised Savior in Gen. 1 could not have come.

Thus, Satan knew God would put enemy between his seed (nephilim) and God's seed (the Christ).

Sorry for the derail, but I think when we wonder why should someone like a Hitler not have justice - maybe he was a man of iron, not of clay and will suffer eternal death.

Sirguess - as usual, lovely, wonderful things to think on.

LCM worshipped and adored VP. I think there was sublimated stuff going on there with LCM. I know LCM's father felt VP had stolen his son and even confronted VP over it.

I don't think it was a healthy relationship.

As for VP, I really think he did not care about his young men vying for his approval. They'd jump through hoops for him, and occassionally he'd throw out a bone by giving a compliment or something. Almost a dominant (VP)/submissive (LCM) relationship.

I think there was some twisted psychological stuff going on with the men who really went to the extreme to get VP's approval. He was a father figure to them.

Well, maybe in this life people won't accept him.

but if millions are going to hell, he's not the Saviour to the uttermost, is he?

Def, there are some great sites on the web about it. I tend to agree with it.

Basically, there is eternity, and there are Aeons, or ages in the eternity (like in the last 50 years there have been different presidential periods of time - but its all the same 50 years).

Those of us born again have eternal life. Those who are not born again may not live in the same or particular aeon of eternity we will. But all will eventually have their works "burned" - note, it does not say the person will be burned or destroyed! Just the works.

Christ is the author of salvation, not just for us humans, but for all of creation. Christ saves to the "uttermost." If many billions of people are going to "hell" (pretty much another mythical concept - research where it came from) then Christ does not save to the uttermost does he?

If some are not saved than Satan won. No ifs ands or buts.

I believe all humans, at some stage, will be saved, will bow before the Glory and love of God.

Now, the Bible does talk about Nephilim and descendants - those people of "iron" who will see no resurrection, those people who are the tares - but that's another thread.

I really believe Christ saves to the uttermost - all human beings without exception will be saved - maybe we will not all be in the same room in the "many mansions" the father has in store, but all, in some age of eternity will be with him.

This was the common Christian belief in the early years. "Religion" has perverted it.

I find it much easier to be loving to people, knowing, whether born again or not, that God loves them and they will be with him someday. Maybe not with the same spiritual bodies we have - maybe in a different way, but, Christ died for them too.