Sunesis

It was so long ago. But I think we all pretty much concur. Now I remember, yes, us corps did get to vote. I also about fell out of my chair too when I heard it would be LCM. I remember VP saying at a corps meeting he didn't know anyone better who could be president than Walter.

Hope, I, for some reason, thought VP was overrulled by other leadership and decided not to fight it. But, Danny has an interesting point, who knows what LCM had on VP. I had never considered that.

I do know, that it was obvious VP was later not happy and I think had some regrets about it being LCM. A member of the LCM family also told me that LCM's and DM's parents both had reservations about making LCM president. They thought he was too young to be handed all the power and money and authority over people he was getting. So, at least one of the families was not happy about it either.

I also remember, it was fairly common knowledge on staff, VP was not happy about the AOS production. He felt LCM should have been working on how to best lead and take over the ministry. Someone said VP had said he wished he had never taught AOS. He never thought LCM would "run with it" like that.

From what I heard, being on staff and from other "top" staffers, no LCM was not VP's first choice. It was Walter Cummins.

Then, the region and limb leadership balked at that. There was a meeting held with the top leadership and they voted for LCM.

My brother was working on a film on VP shortly after the public announcement it was LCM. He told me he asked VP several times why he picked LCM. VP would not answer. Finally, when asked again, VP said, "because he doesn't ask how high when I say jump." But it was pretty obvious that VP was not too happy with the choice and did not want to talk about it.

So, from my understanding, if VP had had his way, it would have been Walter. But the leadership had their way instead.

Well, I am glad to see John has posted here. You must give him credit for that. Very few other former "top hot dogs" have done that. I'm sure he knew there would be some hostility.

I got to know him a bit on my interim year in Brooklyn and on Emporia staff. At this point in my life, I cut all Christians some slack - including ex-twis. They believe that what they are doing is of God and some of them, like John, are working their butts off to spread the Gospel of the good news as they know it.

I just really don't care anymore who belongs to what group, who has the "truth," who wants to argue with who. As Christ said, the truth is within us. If it takes JAL, CG, Tammy Baker, sitting on a desert mesa, etc. as a stepping stone to what you need to learn for your life at that time, more power to you.

Do I agree with most things taught now by ex-TWI groups - no way. But, I do give John props for dropping in and sharing what he has been doing with his life. He feels he is called to do this - more power to him.

I know when I left TWI and went to a couple of his meetings, several of the things he taught (including the tithe) were very freeing for me. I will always appreciate that.

I also saw much of his heart at Emporia for a couple of years. He may have made mistakes, and got caught up in VPs various wrong "innner circle" doctrines, but he is one of the few men I know who have since tried their best to make amends, apologize to people he has hurt and refute the erroneous doctrine of VP. I must give him credit for that. I have not seen anyone else do that. Do I agree with what he teaches now or the ties he still has to VP? No - not at all. But, I believe he has changed in many ways, like most of us have.

Thanks for stopping by John.

I think the biggest disservice VP and TWI did was negate the divinity of Jesus. Mere flesh, even if perfect, could not possibly win and buy us back from the God of this earth, as Adam so appropriately proved. When Christ came to earth, he not only had to redeem mankind in the physical, but in the spiritual world - from the God of this world.

Christ was the "perfect" man. This was definitely taught to us by TWI, and that if we worked on "renewing our mind", we could get close to Christ's walk. Some of us (like VP) could maybe someday walk the same way Christ did.

We were definitely taught that with Christ in us and the renewed mind, we could be as he was.

Two things happened I believe because of this doctrine: 1. Eventually people realize no matter how they renew their minds, they just ain't gonna walk as Christ did. This leads to discouragement, a feeling of hopelessness and depression.

2. By having him as a man and "absent" from us now, he is this little mythological figure in the sky somewhere who will eventually come back for us. Therefore, people started living very licensiously. He was not real.

Without a living and "real" Christ, you eventually get into idolitry (of VP and the Bible - because VP was "tapped in" and was the chosen MOG). Since the Bible took the place of the "absent Christ" and VP was the only one who could teach it like it hadn't been known since the 1st century (right), he took Christ's place.

If we had had an inkling that Christ was alive, real, and working now, I think VP would have been greatly kept in check. Now I see ex-twiers absolutely terrified to consider any other viewpoints. God will not be able to teach them the greatness of Christ until they get over their fear. And it is fear.

Satori - great to see you back again!

I think groups like AA, NA, ACOA, etc. are excellent. You just have to find the one you feel comfortable in. When I lived in NYC there were quite a few believers who were hardcore junkies and alcoholics - yes, really, in twigs. They loved God and Jesus Christ, but NA and AA kept them on the straight and narrow. I went to many NA or AA meetings with them. NA and AA is the only thing for many that can keep them sober. It was obvious that Christian principles, or let's even say, "spiritual principles" work for believer and unbeliever alike.

I grew up with one parent who is still an alcoholic to this day, plus I have family members who are. For the family members, rehab and meetings and wonderful sponsors are literally lifesavers.

When I was in the process of leaving TWI in NYC, I started talking with a pleasant young man at another firm and we somehow started talking about our parents' alcoholism and the effects it had had on us. He brought me to an ACOA meeting with him. It was ACOA (Adult Children of Alcholics), that for the first time in my life showed me, boundaries, limits, its ok to say no, that I was not weird, nor were my feelings weird, I was a survivor (you have to be tough to survive and abusive alcoholic parent growing up) and it also opened my eyes to what an incredibly dysfunctional family the corps was, with our dysfunctional VP leading the way. It was ACOA that opened my eyes and revealed some destructive co-dependent relationships I was in and gave me the strength to break with TWI. Since I had been in TWI since the age of 15, it was truly eye-opening. I think there are things in the physical realm that God showed me. After all, TWI was all about the "spiritual" realm, that life in the physical was in many ways ignored.

I see AA doing great work for a family member right now. For many people, AA, NA, etc. are literally life savers. It gets them honest about themselves, they must take responsibility for themselves - can't slough it off, they must make amends to those they have hurt, you have to throw off the "I am so great" and get humble and realize, you can't go it alone, etc.

Those of us who are not addictive personalities have absolutly no idea the hatred and self-loathing that also exists in the alcoholic, have no idea of the urges they must fight every day (don't say its devil spirit - its brain chemicals - its been proven). We just can never understand it. It is the only thing that for many junkies and alcoholics that works. The only hope they have. For those who seriously want to work it, I've seen too many great things it has done for people.

That was lovely Roy.

Its a still small voice within. For me, its a thought, an idea.

In life threatening situations, its usually a strong idea to do something and stays with me during the day. For example, one morning I woke up and had an idea to go to a certain store after work which I never go to, or if I do, its on a weekend. But the idea kept popping up all day. On my way home after work, I thought, what the heck, let's go - as it was quite out of my way.

When I got home, while I was away, 2 men had broken into my home during the time I was away (a neighbor witnessed it). I still thank God, I was not there when they did and had just had an "idea" to to something I never, ever do on a Monday evening.

Same with spiritual knowledge. It begins with an idea, a what if... I muse and think about it, it starts to form, I research it, read about it, etc. After years of Waybrain, I have learned many wonderful things and had much greater spiritual insight I never would have had, much less been open to if I had still been with TWI, or been unwilling to look at anything unless VP had taught it.

Its ideas, thoughts, impressions the Holy Spirit communicates to humans. How that's done - I have no clue.

Hello Refiner, good to see you back. I always enjoyed your discussions.

My thoughts were with you guys! I want to hear about it and see pics!

Ex - LOL!

Exie my friend, I think many of us who were in TWI were misfits who had never quite fit in, and we found a disfunctional organization who accepted us and allowed us to fit in with all the other misfits.

But, as in my case, being the child of an alcoholic, or your case with abuse at a young age, its very common to feel you don't fit in. Have you checked out any of the survivors groups for what you went through? There are many. ACOA helped me immensely, possibly a survivor group could do the same for you - just a thought.

By the way, I think you fit in here just fine!

Ex my friend, I think they come here because I have looked at many ex-sites for different cult members and I think Waydale, and GS now is probably one of the most vital and ongoing.

I welcome them. After all, we were all cult members, just different titles of the ones we belonged to.

I really don't get what the big deal is here. If some one says they reject God or Christ, which happens quite frequently on this board, so what? We take it in stride when this is said by ex-twiers, but not anyone else?

I think Refiner has always been polite, wants to know what TWI was - like many other people, has been involved in a cult like us - we all have a lot in common.

I've read this whole thing, I really don't understand why people went off and got so upset.

Keep posting Refiner and Oz, I really enjoy points of view of people who were not involved in TWI - there is much more objectivity in many ways than those of us who were involved - many are still way too subjective. Refiner sometimes shakes up our waybrain attitudes, beliefs and thoughts we still have.

I have great trouble believing the Hebrew God is the "true God" we worship and which was revealed to us in the Gospel of John and the Pauline Epistles. Jesus came to redeem us from his law, his bondage and taught his disciples how to pray to the true God of love.

The only reason the Hebrew O.T. is in there is because a few hundred years later the Catholic Church decided it should be. To the victor went the spoils. The cannon is the result of politics.

What if there had been no O.T., no God of war, death and destruction for "Christian" men to follow, would men have still believed? Would there have been war, an inquisition, a crusades? could they have believed in a God of love, the one Jesus preached? It seems most people can't, even today.

Refiner, don't worry, people won't take umbrage at your belief. We have discussed this a few times before on here, including whether VP or LCM were even really "born again" according to the Bible definition as we knew it.

I think there are several factors to be considered in our history. There were/are basically two generations in TWI. Many of us who you are talking to were the younger hippies. The world was crazy in the late '60s, early '70s. We were looking for a place to rest - take a breather, a time out. TWI offered that refuge for many people and a promise to know God.

The Hare Krishna used to come to my high school in NY. I was definitely searching for something spiritual. I loved those guys. They invited me to their temple in Brooklyn. I was 15, my mom said I could go, but none of my friends wanted to go with me. Within days, my best friend told me about the Way and took me to a fellowship in Rye. So, with me, yes, it would have been whoever got to me first. If I had gone to Brooklyn, I would have been a die hard Hare Krishna convert.

But, I also believe in those days there was a great spiritual revival of our generation. There was a wonderful thread here once on the early days, how incredible it was, how God moved - maybe someone could bring it up, you really should read it, I think it would give you some wonderful insight. This was when there was no governing body, the Way leadership wasn't really in place, and we were young, free, and on our own, and we did see God work and people delivered. Not just TWI, but other groups of Christians around the country experienced the same thing. I have never seen a revival like it since.

Then - clamp down, VPW overthrew the NY and California hippie leadership and claimed it for himself. Over time, freedom is lost, we see less and less of God's working. Its a long story.

I also, when I left found some great books on the history or certain groups and realized VP was in it for the money. He was a member of what were called the "Tulsa Renegade Pastors" after WWII. As the nation prospered, these men all decided they would make more money if they left their churches and all started their own ministries. VP, after years of looking for a product to sell, found BG's class and coopted it as his own and taught it to us as PFAL.

Dot nailed in on this and another thread. We were actually the fruit of another, Godly man's minstry, which VP corrupted. I too had always wondered how we saw great results when VP was a moody, sob in private. Dot's insight helped me piece that together.

I believe VP no more walked with God than Stalin or Hitler did. But he had a product and played the role and made his money. But, it was the truth in the product and the wonderful people who were involved in the ministry that made it alive and vibrant those early years. Many stayed hoping they could make it that way again.

I enjoy your opinions Refiner, especially from someone looking in. Its interesting to me to see how we are viewed from the "outside." Please feel free to give your opinions.

Refiner, you are not alone in your thoughts. You need to go to Danny Maher's site on Marcion.

Marcion was an early Christian who is basically the one responsible for our NT - keeping the Pauline Epistles together. He and many early Christians believed the OT God was not the true God, but a demiurge - another God. They also believed that Christ came to earth representing the TRUE God to redeem mankind from this God's power so we could worship the true God.

Of course, once the Catholic church started consolidating, they called him, and anyone else who disagreed a "heretic." I have found, that anyone the early Catholic church condemned as heretic, is usually worth reading.

Marcion believe the Gospel of John and the Pauline epistles are what we are to believe and point to the true God, not the OT God of wrath. There are many great articles on this site.

Go Here: www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3827/library.html

I find it very intersting.

I just tried the link - I don't know why it doesn't work, but that is the address. Or search "Marcion."

I was one of those people who really enjoyed using the greek, hebrew, etc. - all the research materials. I did a lot of word studies and looked up a lot of stuff I questioned.

I found out a lot of stuff they taught wasn't right. I remember realizing the whole Athletes of the Spirit thing was off the wall. Also, the adversary doesn't "compete" or play fairly, why should we? I never did get that.

Also realized "believing" was wrong, should be trusting in God to bring something about his way and in his time, not instructing him what we'd like, get a mind picture and "believe" for it. Other, simple things like that.

A couple of other things I found were wrong I did ask VPW about them and he would just say, go read such and such again. I would, and the answer was not there, but he'd ask me, did you read it, and I'd say, yes, thank you. I didn't tell him, the answer is not there. I just quit asking him about anything.

I always prepared my own teachings, never used the tapes or Way Mag - just, whatever God had put on my heart that week. But in those days you could do that, and were encouraged to. By the mid-80s it started to change.

Actually, in a lot of ways, I learned much more on my own with the concordances, etc. than I did with many of the teachings.

I got one of those letters too. I've heard of Belize, but I didn't know who these people were. Figured they must be ex-twi. I just tossed it.

Excath - I remember that phrase from that poem - if no one is left to love you, you will know that I have died. VP just loved to use that. I never did believe it, did you? The sad thing is, that lots of corps did believe it.

Yes Refiner, behind closed doors with his corps, VPW's verbal abuse could be scathing. One of the worst I ever saw was during a corps meeting at HQ while on staff. This poor 6th corps guy had the nerve to doze off during one of VP's long winded ramblings.

VP saw it and went ballistic, and just humiliated this poor guy - he'd never amount to anything spiritually, and on and on. Poor guy was gone the next day. You had to have been there - it was really shocking.

His henchmen followed and also did the same thing. LCM was notorious for verbal castigation of corps people publically.

Then, what got me, was once a year or so, in our monthly corps household newsletters, VP would write a column about how much he loved us and if he ever hurt any of us, how sorry he was. I used to think, yeah, right.

Kept us on our toes it did - you never knew who was going to be next or singled out.

I watched the leader of Europe, CG, go off on an Irish woman at corps week one year, except he just kept going, and going, and going, until he was hissing at her, and kept going. It dawned on me he was enjoying this immensely.

I think VP and the people who ended up as his top leadership were birds of a feather, there was a sadistic streak there. In most cases, people keep things like that hidden. But in a position of power, things come out that normally wouldn't.

I'm really enjoying some of your "literals according to usage" regarding the letters - LOL.

Reading this, I thank God I don't have to speak like that ever again. It really is sad looking at the Way rag and letters from an "outsiders" perspective now.

She's still in Manhattan. A very dedicated Geerite.

No, I don't think it was a prearranged signal to get someone out. The woman who came in was one of VP's "girls" - I thought it was more of a possible threesome that didn't happen.

With Mrs. VPW entering, she may have seen someone go in and decided to break it up. I know from other people, she hated what he was doing, and if she liked that person, possibly decided to intervene.

I think one reason the adultry thing was kept quiet among a lot of women was the "lockbox" doctrine.

When I was called into VP's motorcoach out of the blue one sunday, about an hour before he was to teach the SNS, I was an innocent, young 1st year corps person. I had no idea what he wanted. But, since he was the MOG, most people were a little flattered that he'd want to see you.

Anyway, sitting there in only his bathrobe he asked a few casual questions, then he got serious. He told me that what he was going to tell me was lockbox, and that he had never told this to anyone else - I was never to tell. He was very emphatic about that. He stressed highly it would be a betrayal of him if I told and I could not betray him. So now I'm thinking, uh-oh, I don't know if I really want to hear this big secret.

He then proceeded to tell the physical reason why he could not have sex with his wife. Because he now can't have sex with his wife, he then went on to explain in graphic detail what he would like to do to me sexually. I was stunned - we're talking porno here. I just stared at him. In this situation, you really can't quite believe what you just heard. I'm thinking to myself, is this some kind of a joke? He really doesn't mean this, right? What is going on here? So, I changed the subject and started talking about something else.

Ten seconds later, he again, repeated what he had said before. Now I'm thinking, how the hell do I get out of here? Just then, another female, top leadership woman, burst through the door. It was strange - no knock, nothing. I've often wondered if I was being set up for something. But, I've digressed. Anyway, I saw my opening and took it. I got up, and said, I have to go get ready for the service and walked out the door.

So now, here I am, I can't tell anyone what just happened, I've been told I am the only woman he's ever told this to, so what do I do? Well, for sure I'm never going to repeat it or tell a soul, its lockbox don't you know.

I think the only reason I was not dismissed from the corps is because my family was involved and my brother-in-law was a top reverend and region leader.

A couple of years later, I ran into a woman who I had been good friends with from my hometown in a local restaurant. She had gone into an early corps and had been abruptly thrown out. Everyone had wondered why - she was a great person. So, we talked. She hated VP. I asked why. She told me he had made advances towards her and she would not put out so he had dismissed her from the corps and the word was put out she was possessed and her good name was slandered. That was true, because that is what I had heard. Then, the kicker was, she said, did he tell you his big secret? And she told me the exact lockbox line he had used on me. She said he told that to all of the women - don't think I was so special. So here are all these woman who are keeping this secret and not telling a soul. Well, she woke me up.

So, I never made it into VP's inner circle sex club (thank God) because I would not play ball. I also found out years later my friend Valerie in the corps was put through the same thing. She also refused his advances. But, lockbox.

Why did I refuse? Simply because I believed it was wrong to have sex with a married man. It was adultry, I would not betray his wife. I also refused LCM. He had a different techinque to wrangle a woman into bed. But in my heart I felt I could not betray a friend's trust. Silly me....

So, I guess I'm saying, there was a lot of coercion and pressure and the feeling of being spiritual enough to "handle" this big secret, and you would rather die than break the lockbox. I can't explain it, weird group think and peer pressure. So, that's one reason why most people didn't know about it.