Catcup

Praying...but I'm confused. Lorraine's father or her husband Bob?

(We knew Bob and Lorraine maaaaany years ago in Texas...early 80's.)

Lorraine's husband, Bob.

Please pray for Lorraine and Amanda. Jen logged onto MySpace and found Amanda had updated her profile 5 hours ago with the message that her father had died and she didn't know what was going on.

It's got to be scary when one has never had a "real job" in their lives, but it shows balls moving away from that TWI t1t. Maybe that's what they are doing..... Sounds like Mark Wallace would make a great used car salesman.

or should that be, used motorcycle salesman?

He worked briefly either for Orkin or Terminix while here in NE Ohio.

How do I know?

I ran into one of his NON-TWI victims at school.

Several years back, in one of my psychology classes, I had a study buddy-- a non TWI type, not religious, just going back to med school. We were discussing narcissism and sociopaths, and he told me he had just been fired by one.

He said he had a really bad experience where he worked, which motivated him to go back to school and finish his education.

My study friend had worked for an extermination company and felt the manager exhibited sociopathic and narcissistic qualities. When he began describing his behavior and some of the pressure tactics and terminology the guy used, it sounded all too famiar. And then when he began calling his manager "Mark," it was downright eerie. I asked him what Mark's last name was and he said "Wallace." Then I asked him to describe him physically to me, and it was in fact the Mark Wallace from TWI. My buddy remembered he also coordinated some religious group in Cleveland. I asked if it was The Way, and he said, "Yeah, that's it!"

Wallace evidently was just as abusive to his underlings in the exterminating company as he was in TWI. Changing jobs and occupations doesn't change the decay and corruption on the inside. It's something he can't hide. It will follow him wherever he goes.

I'm sure Wallace got a "kick" out of working for an exterminating company, seeing as his "job" in TWI was to "exterminate vermin" from the "household." I can just see him now, swelling with "spiritual pride" in the ironies.

The guy leaves a wake of destruction behind him wherever he goes.

First, I never mention my "cult" experience to anyone unless I have known them a long time and they are a very good friend. Of course, I will tell people I'm Christian, no problem, but no mention of TWI.

This has been my approach with people as well. People understand it better if I frame it this way:

I was involved in a religious organization for over twenty years, invested a lot of time, energy, and money into trying to fix something that was going bad, and I eventually left it when I felt it was becoming cult-like and abusive.

That, they understand.

What I have found in talking to folks, is that most people do not think they are vulnerable to being seduced by a cult. They think they are too smart to fall for a ruse, and they have stereotypical ideas of what a cult should be like and what a cult member should be like. They think there is something fundamentally different between themselves and someone who would "fall" for a cult. Or that a cult would be filled with glassy-eyed robotic people who are cookie-cutter images of each other and behave in a stereotypical and immediately identifiable fashion.

When they voice those views, I tell them that their specific mindset makes them especially vulnerable to being seduced. Their stereotypical ideas ensure they will never see it coming when it does.

THAT raises some eyebrows and then they are willing to listen. It certainly shook up my social psychology class and was backed up by the professor.

QUOTE(potato @ Jun 21 2008, 06:14 PM)

mxrk wxllxce broke the law in Colorado when he didn't report domestic abuse involving children.

I'd still like to hear more about that one.

mxrk wxllxce broke the law in Colorado when he didn't report domestic abuse involving children.

I'd like to hear more about that one...

Yeah, someone who has a longsuit in preparing and serving Italian appetizers (antipasto).

(It's awful the way my mind works. )

---------------------------------------------------

Catcup,

One of the demotivational posters at despair.com, entitled "MISTAKES" and featuring a sinking ship, reads, "It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."

Know anyone you'd like to send that to? :D

Yeah-- Howard Allen.

I have a quote from Howard that came from the 6th Corps in-res class he taught on principles of management:

"No man is ever truly worthless-- you can always use him as a bad example!"

Our first assignment was to go to the University of Chicago in 1978. Not something we asked for, but something vpw wanted us to do so he could begin to build his "research team," which would have all the credibility and legitimate credentials he lacked. Over the next few years, several other people were assigned to go to U of C. Thankfully, because school was our assignment and for at least two of those years I was the south side branch coordinator while my husband was a student, I could run things my own way in the area and help the area avoid a lot of the "mandatory" crap other people had to swallow. People sort of left us alone to do it that way without question since our assignment was directly from vpw. I'd say that was definitely "favored" status. Then, we were assigned to HQ in 1982, which had been our dream.

Once there, to our horror, disappointment, and dismay, we discovered all kinds of corruption at the root level. I began to vociferously rebel against and confront it at the trustee level. When it was clear there was not a godly response, Geek and I decided to not accept a corps assignment at HQ the next year. We resigned and returned to Chicago.

When we got back, we tried to communicate what we had discovered to the leadership in Chicago. Evidently we had been blackballed, no one took us seriously, and although "mark and avoid" was off in the future, people stopped coming over. Then one day a WOW we had helped when we first got there came over and said she wanted to find out from us what was going on. All the WOWs had been told NOT to come to our house. God bless her, she knew it was a bunch of BS and was the ONLY person in the entire branch who had the guts to find out for herself and ask us directly. So we told her frankly.

We pretty much had a "disgraced" status after that for many years. Only after the big fallout after vpw's death and LCM began to lose his marbles did the Chicago branch leader (whom we had tried to warn and who blackballed us in the city) and LCM come looking to us for help.

So we've been on both sides of that fence.

He's the Region coor for the Rocky Mountains. Lives in Colorado Springs.................

I was under his ''leadership'' after Catcups horrors..........it never got that bad for us. (i am sure his true self was in hiding)

What set you off Cat to bring him up? Just curious.

Maybe it was hearing a motorcycle off in the distance while driving down a beautiful wooded parkway in the natrue preserve. Maybe it was watching with pride with my husband at my side while my daughter performed at the Cleveland Institute of Music.

Maybe it was realizing that the behavior of some people, who have neither admitted nor realized their mistakes, should be spotlighted as a warning of what lurks beneath the surface.

I'm wondering if this is the same guys I think this is... anyone know what region he coordinated/coordinates?

If this is the guy I am thinking about he gives me the heeby jeebies.

I'm not sure which region he coordinates now. I think it may be posted in the archives somewhere when an innie posted the new assignments. He used to coordinate the limb of Idaho, I think, before he arrived in Cleveland to decimate the area.

He SHOULD give you the heeby jeebies..... fake grin, fake laugh that always sounds forced..... and an ego the size of Texas....

Catcup, isn't he one of these supposed "kindler, gentler" leadership that some have claimed are currently in twi?

I remember that story too.. he told it with pride here too.

Sad to say, my state produced him..

"Kinder, gentler"? HA! He absolutely delighted in gutstripping innocent people and then telling tales of how cool he was as he did it. His wife cowers in his shadow, afraid and unwilling to speak the truth when she knows her hubby is contradicting it.

He threatened Geek with death, me with disability, and my daughter with insanity if Geek didn't "get a passion for the truth." She sat silently and refused to look at me when I stared at her, waiting in vain for her to speak up as her husband flat out lied about me in a meeting, accusing me of things that she knew for a fact were not true. She remained silent in the face of his vicious libel of me and my family. She's a gutless wonder of a beaten wimp.

When Wxllace was the TWI area coordinator in Cleveland he used to relish tearing people's lives apart. He and Pxnarello were two peas in a pod on that point. And then when it was in his own best interest, he led Pxnarello down a primrose path and then knifed him in the back as well.

He was rewarded for his deceit, his lies, and his cruelty by being named a region coordinator.

Opening his teaching at a large gathering with an incident, Wxllxce told us about the immense joy he found when he first opened the pages of the holy scripture. He was riding his motorcycle on a nature trail, when up ahead, he noticed someting laying on the ground. When he got closer, he noticed it was a book. He stopped to read the title and saw it was a bible. As he related the story, he beamed with glee as he described how he carefully positioned his tire on the cover of the book, revved the engine and popped a wheelie, ripping the book apart and sending pages flying everywhere.

He spoke about the event with such pride it was disturbing. He meant the story to be amusing. But it revealed far more about him than he intended.

Not much has changed over the years. He still takes great pride in ripping the word to shreds, along with the joy he gets in doing the same to countless people's lives.

There were some valid points made. However, I still believe one can make a point better by being as objective as possible. Namecalling is unnecessary and adds nothing of value to the conversation. It detracts from the message, no matter what it is.

Catcup, it has been reported here that JP and Sarah with respective spouses have been associated with this endeavor, although, what's been reported is inconclusive concerning their roles.

You are correct on one point, incorrect on the other.

I wonder if that's the real story here though. I'd say these "elders" very well might be running the thing under the kid's name, letting him have the illusion he's in charge.

Who are the elders in his program besides Mc*ullen?

Catcup, the thing that really troubled me was I basically had the door slammed with just honest, concerned inquiry. Perhaps rather pointed.. but I was polite, or as polite as I could be. I know the kid.. and he knows who I am.

This was over a month before I brought it here. Another poster took offense and inadvertenly leaked that supposedly the program really is all Mc*ullen's pride and joy..

The kid couldn't even tell me that much. Why the secrecy? Now I think I wasn't the first one to voice a few objections and warnings..

The arrogance just reeks all the way up here..

No, you're not the first one to voice objections and warnings about this corps program cloning, and certainly not the last. And your objection should continue to be heard. You have every right to be troubled. And you aren't the only one.

I wouldn't be surprised if the program is in fact Mc*ullen's "pride and joy." It has, however, no connection to CFF other than a link on their site and the fact that vpwII went through the fellowlaborer program.

Plagiarism is plagiarism and this perpetuates not only some of the worst of TWI's tradition, but opens the door for a host of problems at many different levels. --Which is why this program is not "universally popular" or even supported by those you might expect would be behind it. In fact it is radically opposed in places.

Also, to tell you the truth, I would be troubled anywhere when honest and polite inquiry is discouraged, and especially so when treated with arrogance. Absolutely.

That doesn't stop my inquiry, however, just causes me to ask more questions.

Personally, I get two different receptions from offshoot types-- they either like me or they just can't stand me. From a particular family, who are of two differing opinions, one part is supportive, and the other side can barely disguise their animosity toward me.

At this point, I get support from the people who matter, so to me, that's all that matters. I'm not much phased by other folks' opinions.

So you get people like vpw II being able to take part in a fellowlaborer program that CFF set up and makes available to any group or any church to take part in, and then go out and start his own thing, totally separate from CFF, the way he wants to, without any input whatsoever from CFF, without their support doctrinally, financially, administrationally, or legally.

But in contrast to vpwII's point of view, you have a host of others which oppose it, can freely express their views of why they oppose it and lay out logical reasons arguing against it.

That's part of checks and balances in any democratic arrangement, whether it is political, academic, or religious.

Sorry about that-- am out of town using somebody else's weird shaped keyboard and with some bad arthritis developing in my fingers now, I accidentally hit the wrong button and that got sent before I was done.

CFF is very decentralized compared to what we were all accustomed to in TWI.

Each fellowship is encouraged to set up their own tax-deductible situation so that the money people give stays in their own community. If they wish to send anything on to CFF they can do so, but the idea is to keep the funds serving in the area among those who gave it. So each fellowship really is self-governing and self-supporting, not supporting a huge centralized structure.

Also, CFF allows contact with other Christians who have differing beliefs.

Allowing contact with other people who believe differently than you does several things:

It allows for diversity of opinion, which is something TWI never allowed. This is important because it helps guard against a psychological phenomenon called groupthink, which was present in twi. This phenomenon can be found in many different kinds of organizations where there is strong biased opinion and cohesiveness (and unfortunately I have noted the antecedents and process in play on this board from time to time).

This keeps the door open to be able to openly question long-accepted doctrine.

It keeps the door open to have new ideas brought in.

It avoids the censorship TWI subjected us to.

Some people can't handle this idea, because they believe disagreement is not a "Christian" thing to do.

Others believe it is not possible to have a Christian fellowship without everybody being "on the same page" with every "jot and tittle" of doctrine. So this can be hard for people to get used to.

Still others, in great error, keep trying to pidgeonhole CFF into their idea of what an offshoot should look like, and miss this very important distinction. Because they miss it, they attribute some aspects to CFF that it does not in fact have, and miss important ones it does, like allowing diversity of opinion.

However, that is the commitment CFF has to not "censor" other peoples beliefs, but to build bridges to one another in the Christian community, affiliating with both ex-twi groups and Christian groups who have never been a part of twi. This is in CFF's interest of recognizing their part in the larger world community of Christianity and building upon what Christians agree upon together and not what they disagree upon.

The down side to that:

The same downside you have in any democracy: You have to allow open dissent, even if you disagree with what is being said.

While allowing for other people to believe radically different things about Christianity, it also allows for some people to get stuck perpetuating the same old doctrines from the past abusive system due to the lack of control over doctrine.

So you get people like vpw II being able to take part in a fellowlaborer program that CFF set up and makes available to any group or any church to take part in, and then go out and start his own thing, totally separate from CFF, the way he wants to, without any input whatsoever from CFF, without their support doctrinally, financially, administrationally, or legally. It is his thing, plain and simple, has nothing to do with CFF, nor is it condoned. I could get more specific, but I don't want to complicate someone else's familial relationship.

Don't know if this clears anything up for anybody, but Geek and I were both alarmed at this, he and I both checked it out, and this program is in no way connected to CFF other than a link on their site.

First off let me say I have not had time to read this entire thread, so if I missed a correction that has already been posted, I apologize. I also won't have time to do much follow up on this thread either. so you can either take or leave this contribution to the discussion here.

In reading through this thread over a week ago, I noticed it was being discussed that a young vpw had set up some kind of training program that was a carbon copy of TWI's way corps and that this was somehow affiliated with CFF.

I am not active with CFF, but my husband is, so of course this concerned me. I investigated whatever links were supplied in this thread and did in fact find the five wc principles lifted directly (plagiarized-- and that's a whole 'nother issue in and of itself) from TWI's program. This really set me off, so I brought it to Geek's attention. He had no idea what vpw II was up to and that it was at all affiliated with CFF.

I did look at the link provided about the affiliation with CFF and it is simply listed as a link for others to click on and investigate, and there is in fact a disclaimer that the groups listed in these links may not (and many do not) reflect the beliefs of CFF.

Here is what is important for you to know about vpw II's program: It is neither supported nor condoned in any way by CFF. There is some pretty stiff opposition to what vpw II is doing, and I know more than that about who, and cannot freely say, but it's not supported financially, legally, or any other way by CFF. This program is something vpw II is doing all on his own.

And, OK, here's what I can tell you that many here seem to not know or get about CFF:

CFF is not set up at all like TWIs internal structure-- here is a quick compare/contrast:

UNLIKE TWI:

They allow contact with outside Christian groups who do not believe the same thing they do about a great many issues. This does many things:

There are a variety of opinions in CFF about a great many things. TS represents just one of them. Some of us believe quite the opposite, with all due respect to TS.

John Schoenheit was a very good friend of ours when he was in TWI. A good-hearted man, very knowledgeable of the Old Testament and history. I never knew him to be one of the huge "egoes" of the research team. A humble man, but up front about what he believes. Was the first person to really lift the lid off of what VPW was doing. Told me after he left, way back when. I wish I had believed him then. What he told me proved to be correct. Ignoring him cost me another decade in the belly of the beast at least.

But seriously--

Playing mind games with people who are tired of people playing mind games with them. What's up with that?

Nixon's Checker Speech

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/nixon-checkers.htm

Scroll down to the place where it says "real audio excerpt 1:19" and you will find the text that appeared in Yanagasawa's post.

I'm familiar with the speech. I am baffled as to what it has to do with the price of eggs. Or twi.

And this business of giving us a test?

I'll just go back and re-read the thread. After this last semester I was just looking for some lighter reading, but I should know better than to look for that here

Are you guys serious about this homosexuality/original sin thing?

It'd be more inmpressive in terms of what TWI has learned if they thought it was adultery IMO.

It'd be just as stupid as saying it was homosexuality, but at least then they would be admitting that adultery was wrong.

That's the bottom line of the doctrine in Crotch-monger's class. Don't know if they have continued that part of the teaching after dumping it's perpetrator, but wouldn't be suprised.

Dead on serious.

It'd be more inmpressive in terms of what TWI has learned if they thought it was adultery IMO.

It'd be just as stupid as saying it was homosexuality, but at least then they would be admitting that adultery was wrong.

TWI admit adultery is wrong?

When pigs fly.

Nixon and Checkers? A test?

WTF?