Catcup

The whole family arrived with pillows and food and baby clothes and diapers, hoping for a boy of course, but grateful for whatever God would give them. One of my helpers made lasagna and salad for them, as the kids watched TV, and the parents set up their birthing room with flowers and music and a bright colored quilt. A good dinner during labor is so much nicer than an IV in your arm. The laboring mom washed the dishes, while the dad read a bedtime story to the three girls and tucked them into sleeping bags spread out on the floor. Baby's vitals were good as the contractions got stronger. The mom knew I would not do a vaginal exam until she asked for one. A few hours later, with broken water and some pretty powerful pains, she finally said "check me". Dilation was ten centimeters. She was sitting on the bed. Her husband sat behind her, leaning on the head of the bed, with his knees up on both sides of her, so she could brace herself to push. Soon we saw a little bit of the baby's head, beautiful dark hair. The dad asked me to pray (He knew from experience that I do this just before each baby comes out). I prayed for a wiggle-y pink baby, and for the mother's strength. At the word, "Amen", the mom began to cry, and then gave one more push. The infant presented with one little hand pressed over an ear, as though she were greeting us all with a wave of "hello". Everything was quiet except for some soft music and the squeal of the 4-year-old "big" sister who stood by the bed. My apprentice said "Welcome, baby", and I said "God bless you, child". The dad said, "It's another pretty girl", and then he cut the cord. We wrapped the baby, and gave her to the oldest sister (age 6) to hold while the mom squatted on the floor to expel the placenta. The 2-year-old watched wide-eyed, and asked, "Is there another baby, mommy?" We all laughed, and then the whole family snuggled up on the bed, under their own quilt, to make phone calls to the grandparents.

THAT is the way birth is supposed to be.

This mom believes fully in herself as a strong woman and a good mother. This dad honors his wife's power, and cherishes his four home-born daughters. These girls are not afraid of their own female bodies, and they see childbirth as a fun day like Christmas when a woman works really hard and then everyone gets a gift in the end. Fear is not a part of this. It's all about LIFE.

THAT is the way the family should be.

Who took this joy away from American women? Take a guess. Religion. Christianity. Remember the witch trials? Those were the midwives. They were said to be "of the devil". When I was in TWI, I sensed this same judgment on myself from the leaders there. Now, please understand, I am not a man-hater or a political feminist. But I believe that the religious (male) leaders a couple of centuries ago realized the power and honor held by the midwives, and were compelled to destroy it. Birth is almost synonymous with the word, "miracle". Power in birthing is undeniable. That's about the time in history when men pirated the role of the midwives, and soon the laboring women were removed from their homes, and sent to hospitals, where males - who will never experience birth themselves - took over. But they didn't get it, they couldn't comprehend the resulting satisfaction and self esteem that women end up with, once they've birthed a baby. So they drugged us and cut us and infected us, and destroyed the God-given life's-passage, which is childbirth. Today one out of every three babies in our country is "born" by surgery, because "we can't do it by ourselves - poor us". And who gets the glory? Not God. Not the mother.

THAT is exactly how the woman's power over her own birth and her authorioty over her own body was robbed in America.

Birth belongs at home. To go to the hospital for birth is like to go to the hospital for love-making. It is NOT medical. It is NOT technical. It is passion and spirit and awesome and holy. I'm sorry that so many of us have been ripped off and fooled. This is a big deal to me. I've pretty much given my life to this purpose.

I agree. We need more women like you. It's nice to see one of the Golden people here at the cafe.

Thanks, Catcup, for an opportunity to speak my peace. And for some nice photos, you can check out my website: www.mountainmidwives.com

You're very welcome. Awsome website, Shifra! Great work!

I'm new here, although have read posts for many years, off and on. The brainwashing post has sparked a reply. Why throw away all we've learned? I have tried to decipher what was wrong and what was good in TWI. It has taken years to fully understand the impact on my mind of what the TWI has done to me, but I am thankful for the word (some) I learned. Yes, VP was wrong in that he claimed all was his "revelation" or through his own research, but when it really comes down to it, who cares? If you look at all the "supposed men of God" on TV, and others, have you been able to find one that is not lying about their so called revelations, right teachings? NO and I have looked at many of them. I do not believe that anyone has the key to GOD. I was very involved in TWI and saw many things, some I was too naive to know what was really going on, but some would make your skin crawl! Why throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater? Does this mean I'm still brainwashed???

Just looking for a few more answers!

:)

Don't be afraid to toss ALL the dirty water out.

The baby is too big to fall down the drain.

What I mean by that is, toss it out, toss it all out. Then reconstruct what you believe from sources outside TWI. If what TWI taught you was the truth, you will then run across it and document it from other sources that are NOT CONTAMINATED by TWI

Damn it Cat I feel like you are smacking me in the head with a ball bat with every post you write....I`ll be DAMNED if you didn`t just describe me to a *T*

The desire to not rock the boat...the desire to do anything to please....inability to say no....hmmmmm

Ok....so I guess once recognising this as unhealthy behavior....we can stop.... how do we stop from passing this crap on to the kiddoes?

Sorry, Rascal, I don't mean to smack ya

Recognizing those behaviors are a problem is the first step.

Beginning to challenge and correct them in yourself is another.

Instill into your children a healthy dose of self esteem:

Show them how important it is to speak up if something is not right

Show them how it is important to stand up for what they know is right

Show them they have the right to deny a request that is not in their best interest or will harm someone else

Show them their opinions, concerns, and feelings matter to you

Show them that they have the power to make a difference in the world

From what I see kiddo, you're working on it pretty well.

BTW, Martial arts have enormous benefits in these areas.

Amazing work, Catcup.

Have you seen any information on the the intergenerational effects of this? Do women who have been abused unintentionally pass this on to their daughters?

There is information out there on this in the medical journals and probably in some of the books you can find at Borders on the subject. My advice would be take the time to peruse the aisle concerning women's issues and check the chapters. You may find some helpful information that way. The best way though would be go to your local library and look up the information in The new England Journal of Medicine, Social Science Review, or some of the Psychological Journals out there. They would have the most up to date and accurate information out there on the subject.

The old addage that "children learn what they live" is true is many aspects. Many things are passed on to our children unintentionally because our behavior, especially when very young, is the model for their own. The desire to "not rock the boat" and the desire to do anything to please a person, the inability to say no to people who make imposing requests, some of these cultural and social habits are picked up by children. And if not ever put in their proper context, send the wrong message.

SHE was an awsome professional...no doubt skilled in recognizing the ppd ...that you mentioned.......She went way above and beyond the call of duty in caring for me.....

Nope, she didn't go above and beyond the call of duty, believe it or not. That's what a good, caring, properly trained professional is supposed to do!

A properly skilled, educated, and licensed midwife is a darn good way to go. I hate to say it, but sometimes midwives have more training in the area we are discussing than the regular obgyns.

I do not know what I would have done without her....she is also the one that badgered me (in a good way) to finally get the pap smear that detected my cervical cancer in time to get it treated.

Unfortunately, many doctors won't do the "badgering." It is true that we need to take responsibility for being proactive about our own health care. The doctors therefore will put it out there as a reccommendation, but I have found that follow up is not necessarily a strong suit with some. Doctors do, especially working for huge hospitals, limit the time they spend with each patient. They must impart the info and move on. Many midwives are independent and can therefore take more time to tailor their care to the individual patient. Doctors sometimes cannot practice medicine the way they would like to because of the constraints put upon them by the huge corporations they work for.

A trained professional to spot the severe reactions from abuse....what a blessing verses the professional that unknowingly further traumatizes an already fragile patient.

Very, very true. That is why it is very important for nurses and other medical professionals to keep up with their continuing education units and get this extra training. That's why medicine is a practice. You have to keep doing it to be good at it, and you have to keep up with current information. Otherwise, you and your patients are left in the dark.

And by the way, yes, you did hit the jackpot with that midwife. She was right there on top of everything, just like she was supposed to be. Those people are absolutely golden.

That's another thing. This kind of behavior can really confuse the hell out of our guys. Geek and I talked about this as soon as the possibility of marriage became an issue with us. And at that time in our courtship in 1977-78, I hadn't had sex since I had gotten into the Jesus movement in 1972, so I wasn't sure how I would react when I tried it again. After we were married, it really didn't surface for a while. And when it did, it seemed to come out of the blue, but because we discussed it previously, we both knew what it was and I assured him it wasn't him, but me. But eventually I narrowed it down to what specific things would trigger this panic reaction, and he does his best to avoid those things. Sometimes, it happens anyway. He always says, though, "that's not what I meant to do..." And I have to assure him that I know it wasn't his intent. It is simply a reaction I cannot control. I believe it is a conditioned response.

Boy, I can't believe I put that much of my private life out there.... but you have to know you are not alone in this.

A few years back I was with my husband, dolled up in a nightie...

He came over and threw me down, playing the part. The minute he held my shoulders down, something snapped. I freaked out. FREAKED

GET OFF ME, GET OFF NOW, I began screaming. He got up and has been reluctant to touch me since

I am damaged goods, even though I have moved "on" so to speak.

Dot-- this is very common.

This has happened to me as well. Everything is going along just fine until suddenly.... certain moves, certain positionings of his body.... and the exact same thing occurs with me. We have to stop.

I'm sure thankful I've got a great man who understands.

Women who are survivors of sexual assault, along with women who have been or are currently victims of physical and/or emotional abuse, also have a higher incidence of post partum depression, and a higher incidence of post partum psychosis.

That's another reason it is important for an obstetrician, his nurses, and his childbirth educator to be trained in identifying these women beforehand. Identified early, you have the entire pregnancy period to build rapport and trust. You also have the time to refer them to counseling.

Sometimes these women respond best to private childbirth classes where they have more control, and the privacy to ask questions they might not bring up in the usual public classes, and the course material can be adapted to their particular need. This is what I have done since 1993 or 1994. These women need to be followed carefully not only through pregnancy, labor, and delivery, but post-partum as well, to help assure a healthy and positive outcome for both mother and baby.

By the way--

Women on staff at The Way International were highly encouraged to attend birthing classes taught by nurses on TWI staff rather than at the local hospital. These nurses NEVER COVERED this very essential material regarding sexually abused patients with the pregnant women on staff.

I wonder why?

The material was good enough to impart to Rawlins' "unbeliever" patients.

Why not distribute the same information to the Corps and staff?

Very, very curious.

weird. a double post....

I am glad this is opening up some dialogue.

Women who have been sexually abused/molested, or even those with near escapes, can find it difficult to deal with medical procedures of any kind, not just gynecological and obstetric. Dental procedures rate high on the list as well. As do run-ins with doctors and caregivers who are authoritarian in their approach.

Authoritarian methods will actually set off the fight/flight response and even full blown panic attacks in the patient. That is what you guys are describing up there in your posts.

This is why those in the medical profession need to be trained to identify behavior that can possibly be linked with such abuse, or have someone in their practice who is trained to spot them.

1. It helps explain the reaction to the physician

2. It demystifies the patient's behavior to the staff, which generates more compassion

3. It increases the likelihood the patient can have a positive experience

4. It decreases the likelihood the patient will be further traumatized

What the doctor can do:

Take the time to establish a good rapport with the patient. Always be gentle. Always carefully explain what you are going to do before you begin. Ask the patient if she is ready to begin. As you are performing the procedure, explain what you are doing and let her know if something will change. If she suddenly wants to stop, STOP and let her gather herself together before you begin again.

Giving the woman as much control as you can reasonably and safely give her in these procedures, especially during birth, can be a very empowering and healing experience, helping the woman regain confidence and some range of comfort with the experience, rather than one that further traumatizes and sets her back.

Catcup, nice post starting the thread.

I'll have more to say later, but I think it is important to understand that there is not a stock response to rape, nor are there stock situations with stock answers.

You are absolutely right on this. Not every woman will manifest the behaviors I have above described. But the behaviors I have described have been found in a significant percentage of this population.

More women have been raped than many men understand because of the many caes that go unreported.

Recovery varies from victim to victim.

This also is very true. Recovery can depend on how stable the person is to begin with, what kind of help they receive or don't receive, what kind of relationship they have with and what kind of support they can get from family and friends, among others.

In some cases, a person with sexual abuse during their formative years will seem to put out a vibe that victimizers seem to pick up on.

This also can be true, especially if they have not fully recovered from the assault. This is not an intentional "vibe," but sometimes an insecurity left by the initial sexual assault can be so profound, that it cannot be masked by the person who has survived this sexual assault, and many times that person is not able to even recognize their own insecurities. Unfortuately, like some of these assault survivors carry a profound and unmaskable insecurity, sexual predators carry an acute sense of being able to pick up on even the slightest hint of vulnerability. The moment they detect that scent, they hyperfocus on their target.

The testimony at trial is not as cut and dried as we might like it. Someimes victims have been so traumatized they don't get the story perfectly straight. Often the perpetrator is not an ogre-looking person, but the sort one would never guess would do such a thing.

This is also true, not only of rape trials, but of other kinds as well. I served on a murder trial this summer and witnessed exactly that phenomenon. The details were muddled by trauma, yet the guilt of the accused was obvious. However the state failed to prove its case. It was the very unfortunate case where twelve people knew in their hearts the guy was guilty as sin, but because of technicalities they had to acquit. The verdict did not change the ugly realities of the murder they knew this man committed. It's a flaw in our court system. Our system of justice is not perfect.

For the person accused, and looking at decades in prison, they deserve to mount a strong defense including facing their accuser and having the right of cross-examnation.

This is often painful, but it is necessary in our system of justice.

Also right on the money. Like I said, the kind of defense tactics used are rigorous, and the defense counsel uses them because it is his/her job to defend the accused. Unfortunately, the tactics are also used to intimidate, which is also the job of the defense counsel.

It is often very painful, and yes, it is necessary in our system of justice.

Unfortunately the nature of the damage done by the crime of sexual assault itself renders many victims unable to withstand such a trial. A catch 22. Just my opinion, but that is a flaw in our system of justice. A debate currently waged in law schools everywhere.

I have received yet another flurry of private messages asking about

The Impact of Abuse on Childbearing Women

Here is a brief overview, which I hope you will find helpful.

Just for the record, this happens to be the area where I was trained personally by Penny Simkin in 1992.

Not all women who have been abused will have any of these symptoms or outcomes, or any of the symptoms previously listed on the Normal Human Reactions to Rape thread. However, the symptoms and outcomes I am listing, are normal human reactions to sexual abuse and have been noted in a significant percentage of that population.

Women who have been abused have a higher incidence of cesarean sections for failure to progress. Many times, there is an adequately wide pelvis through which the head could easily descend, but for no apparent reason, the cervix does not dilate or efface beyond, say for instance, 4 cm. and about 50%. (Attention: That doesn’t mean if a person has been diagnosed with failure to progress that you can say they have been sexually abused. That can happen for other reasons….)

During labor itself, some abused women pass their early and middle stages without incident, but in transition, the loss of emotional control can be severe. Women who have abuse in their background can manifest problems earlier, but can especially have difficulty going through the transitional stage of labor. Transition can be rough on any woman. However those with abuse in their backgrounds may be blindsided by a more intense mixture of emotions and stark terror. This sometimes results in dissociative behaviors.

Tuning in to your body and becoming internally aware of the changes and contractions is the usual way to surf the waves of labor. However, tuning in to their labors and giving in to the pain is often frightening for survivors of sexual assault. The pain associated with crowning can be especially traumatic and confusing. For example, and it helps to remind the patient that the pain is from the baby coming out, and not something going in.

In general, because of their past sexual trauma, these patients have a distinct fear of losing control. They fear loss of control not only of their emotions and their physical bodies, but also over the entire process of pregnancy, labor and birth. They may find the changes in their physical bodies disturbing. They may find the normally intrusive but usually painless medical procedures and exams during prenatal care painful and traumatizing. They may have severe reactions to graphic birthing films and breastfeeding instruction.

Fear of loss of control can be manifested in different ways regarding birth. Many of these women have a distinct need to control every part of their pregnancy experience, outlining elaborate and almost impossible to obtain birth plans, and manifest attempts to control the doctors, midwives, and medical personnel. They can be demanding, unreasonable, and distrustful of the physicians and staff. This usually makes for rough relationships with the staff, unless they have identified her as a survivor of sexual assault.

Once a woman has been identified as a survivor of sexual assault, her behavior begins to make sense to the staff, and it makes sense to give this person the power she needs over the experience. At this point if the personnel allow her all the control over her experience they can reasonably and safely give her, the birth experience can actually be a healing and victorious experience for this woman, to have her own control over this significant event regarding the parts of her body that were previously so violated. If she is not identified, there is a danger that she will likely be further traumatized by reactions of the alienated staff.

Rather than try to gain control over everything, some survivors of sexual assault go to the other extreme and give up all control over things that are even within their own responsibility to undertake. They may choose an obstetrician who is dominant or domineering, and surrender all decision making, or refuse to make decisions for themselves. That particular behavior is also seen in women who may not have been sexually abused, but have been emotionally or physically abused by a spouse, significant other, or family member.

For those of you who want to read more, there are at least two books I know of right off the top of my head that you might find helpful:

The Courage to Heal by Laura Davis and Ellen Bass

When Rabbit Howls by Chase T. Jove

For my friend Pond, who might want more scientific proof from the appropriate medical research journals, since she/he finds my own credentials are so woefully inadequate, please reference:

“History of physical and sexual abuse in women with chronic pelvic pain” Rapkin A.J., Kames L.D., Darke L.L., et al. Obstetrics and Gynecology 76(1): 92-96, July 90

“Prevalence of sexual abuse, physical abuse, and concurrent traumatic life events in a general medical population.” Greenwood C.L., Tangalos E.G., and Maruta T. Mayo Clinic Procedures 65 (8): 1067-1071, August 90.

“Dissociative symptoms in relation to childhood physical and sexual abuse.” Chu J.A. and Dill D.L. American Journal of Psychiatry 147 (7): 887-892, July 90.

“Medical problems of adults who were sexually abused in childhood.” Arnold R.P., Rogers D., and Cook D.A.G. British Medical Journal 300:705-707, 17 March 90

A note about post traumatic stress disorder—some have asked questions about this. Rape can predispose a person to this disorder. In fact, a person may get through the initial recovery period without incident and go for a decade or more without problem. And then, when they are faced with labor and delivery, or if they are victimized by say, a burglary, or are involved in an automobile accident, this can actually trigger ptsd, and the symptoms seemingly come out of the blue. Yet these effects are directly tied to the sudden violence and intrusion that occurred in the assault.

frankly i do not need the attention do you?

If you didn't need the attention, you wouldn't have done what you did, kiddo.

Now, back to my regularly scheduled projects.

Enjoy your little world Pond. You're the biggest fish in the little mudpuddle of your mind.

I have bigger fish to fry...

Above? not really i do have a college degree

Well, it certainly doesn't guarantee a person can read with comprehension and/or spell and punctuate, now does it?

big deal even a degree doesn't make one an expert.

Read it. I never claimed to be an expert, I said I speak from my training, my education, and my experience.

those who counsel victims are highly experienced and educated, malpractice insurance, and a license is required.

You want the name of my malpractice insurer? Yes, I carry it.

Have never needed it.

i minimized nothing i merely asked a question .

Which I answered. You simply didn't like the answers you got.

you guys can look up all the information and help you need in life on the internet .

Just what I thought.

You can't handle the message, and so you attacked the messenger.

You can't handle the challenge, you can't do the research, so you back off.

I appreciate everyone's support, I really do.

But I don't need an apology from Pond,

I have a challenge to POND:

If you don't accept my credentials, that's fine with me.

Deal with the content:

PROVE THE INFORMATION WRONG.

And do it from ACCEPTED JOURNALS FROM THE MEDICAL AND SOCIAL SCIENCE FIELDS.

Here, just a few suggestions:

Annals of behavioral medicine

Applied & preventive psychology

Clinical practice and epidemiology in mental health

Clinical psychology

Clinical psychology and psychotherapy

Clinical psychology review

Health psychology

International journal of behavioral medicine

Journal of health psychology

Journal of social and clinical psychology

Professional psychology

Professional psychology, research, and practice

Psychology, health & medicine

Stress and Health

Stress medicine

New England Journal of Medicine

Social Science Review

Be my guest.

yes child birth such as a midwife nurse Dr etc related field are in the medical field.

a "doula" is a helper a support an aid and is classified as NON medical, your may work in a medical facility or around medical personel as an aid but they are cetified not professional and that isnt eve required in most states. all certifications work under a licensed educated professional.

Maybe you'd better do more research to find out what kind of doulas exist and what their training requires to actually be employed.

I'm not saying it is good work but you are not on a interdisciplinary team as an aid or helper to those in labor or pregnant.

You truly are ignorant. I am part of an interdisciplinary team. Look up the word "interdisciplinary."

Listen catcup i really do not want to make the time to deflate your ego, but the bottom line is abby is right anyone can look up what you write on an internet and you really have nothing as far as expertise or education on paper other than you think so written in bold.

My ego is just fine, thank you very much. Your response is not surprising to me, seeing that it comes from someone who at least appears can neither read with comprehension nor barely spell well enough to put a sentence together.

Maybe you ought to look again at my credentials.

What makes YOU an expert, eh?

a daula is a non medical person who "aids " pregnate women. no education is required. possibly some training or a cert from the state.

what is a CCE? a certificate ?

I know what NBCC is. well.

So you worked with pregnate woman and aided women since 1989 in a non medical field, and your working on going to school now with the dual major, but have not yet worked as a professional .

your expertise comes from experience working with and for women, while seeking education to pursue a professional career.

ok thank you for your quick reply.

I am a certified childbirth educator (CCE). That is a minimum 2 year certificate that is internationally and professionally recognized.

I am a doula, not a "daula." An education IS required if you want to be certified. That is another minimum 2 year certificate that is internationally and professionally recognized. That adds up to four years of education and training, not to mention continuing education credits to keep up certifications. You want me to total my hours for you? Sheesh. And I was trained personally by the top recognized names in the field.

There are standards that one must prove to have met to have those designations and to keep meeting them. My certificates are not simply recognized by the state. Mine are recognized internationally. I met and continue to meet very stringent standards.

I have worked professionally since 1989 having served an apprenticeship during my training. I worked not only with Dr. Rawlins after my certification but also an agency in the Cleveland Metropolitan area. And yes, childbirth education and related issues are considered part of the "medical" field.

I am currently working in both of the fields of my majors, while attending school full time.

And let me add this to it: 4.0 gpa, Dean's List, memberships in International Honor Societies related to both of my majors (Pi Gamma Mu for Social Sciences and Phi Alpha Theta for History) and scholarships so I have no out of pocket expenses. If that isn't good enough for you, then nothing is.

Catcup-Lady, you have no idea how much you just helped me. Not only with myself but with a dear friend as well. Through the tears in my eyes and the quiver in my voice I say "Thank you, so very much for taking the time and the heat to speak out here in this place."

I hope you don't mind but I'm going to print it out to share with my friend. Let me know if this is not acceptable.

You go right ahead if you think it will help her. That's why I posted this.

Catcup

who wrote this?

If not you then do you have any reference or acknowledgment? What method was used to arrive at your conclusions? what training and education have you attained specifically?

thank you

I WROTE THIS.

Like I said in the original post, it is in response to a flurry of private message questions due to the Broiling Cesspool Thread.

My four year education as both a CCE and Doula beginning in 1989 included a specialty in identifying sexually abused clients and how to help them during pregnancy, labor, delivery, and postpartum. I was a member of ICEA for about 10 years and beginning in 1997 worked several more years for an agency in the Cleveland metroplitan area doing this work. I sat at the feet of people like Penny Simkin, Paulina Perez, and Cheryl Snedeker. Anyone in the field will recognize the significance of those names. I worked privately teaching, identifying, and following high-risk (abused) patients for Dr. Rawlins. I am currently a double major at a private college in the Cleveland area: Psychology with a concentration in Social Psychology, and History with a concentration in Middle Eastern Studies.

Anything I have posted here regarding this kind of human behavior has been general knowledge in the medical and counseling professions for many years, and is easily accessible at any rape crisis counseling center

What I call the "Broiling Cesspool Thread" has generated a lot of private messages to me with people asking questions. One person in particular brought up the puzzling post-rape behavior of someone she knew and wanted to understand it better, so I am posting this in the hopes that it might answer some questions you all are asking, and help folks better understand the dynamics between human beings.

I do not at this time have the luxury to indulge answering any more questions on this forum, as I am simultaneously involved in several intense projects, revising a book, and getting ready for the semester to begin. Consider this simply a public service announcement. Discuss all you want, and do with the information what you will. The information contained herein is part of my education and training in counseling both women and men who have been raped.

Normal Human Responses to Rape

Question:

"1. When I was in college a friend of mine - a very, very, very quiet and meek girl - was raped in the lobby of her apt building. Within months she became HIGHLY promiscuous! I mean - she was screwing anyone she could find. It was almost like she had said to herself, "Okay, THIS time I get to choose!"

2. I know of instances where some of VP's victims (true victims and not "pimps") became very promiscuous as well.

Anyway - the question I guess is : Is what I've noticed a "usual" thing?"

Answer:

In response to your question regarding the behavior of the woman you knew, it's not necessarily that they say to themselves "Okay, this time I get to choose!"

Rape gets to the core of your very being and deeply affects your self-image. In response to the assault, many victims blame themselves for what occured, and are at risk to begin to think they contributed to the situation somehow by their behavior or the way they dressed. Was my makeup too heavy? Was my skirt too short? Was my shirt too lowcut? Were my jeans too tight? Was my walk too suggestive? Did I say the wrong thing? Were my curtains open at night? Did I leave my door or window unlocked? The list of self-doubting questions go on and on ad infinitum. They begin to minutely pick themselves apart all on their own, believing that somehow it is their fault and that they somehow sexually aroused someone else. This is a huge flaw in not only the understanding of the victim, but also in the understanding of the general public.

The main thing everyone needs to understand about the crime of rape itself, is that in the mind and motivations of the perpetrator, rape is NOT primarily about sex.

Rape is primarily about the power and control one person wields over another.

The offender many times truly believes in his own mind (this is a delusion) that the person "wanted it," and will finish up by telling them so. Along with that, he many times will make threats that if he or she goes to the police, either (a.) No one will believe you, or (b.) "I know where you [or your loved one lives, works, shops, goes to school, etc.] and I will and xyz..."

Especially if the attacker is someone the victim knows, at this time any power or authority the perpetrator possesses which he can use to intimidate his victim will be employed. And this is what it's all about. The heady and intoxicating power the perpetrator gets in humiliating his victim, overpowering them, controlling them, and manipulating them into submission. That, my friends, is what rape is truly about. It's a power trip.

The immediate almost universal response afterward is to feel absolutely filthy, and an overpowering, almost irresistable need to get clean causes many victims to head to the shower. It is very common for these people to wash themselves repeatedly for hours, even scrubbing themselves to the point they bleed, if they aren't bleeding already.

I will repeat: The urge to do this is so overpowering after a rape, that this is part of the reason rape is difficult to prosecute. The evidence is often easily washed away.

That is why the advice given to women in self-defense classes and such is that, if you are raped, DO NOT SHOWER OR CHANGE YOUR CLOTHES. CALL 911 AND WAIT FOR THEM TO ARRIVE.

It is hard enough to get people who are raped by strangers to do this. Unfortunately, people who are raped by someone they know, are even more likely to doubt themselves, and delay filing a report. This increases the likelihood that any evidence is lost by waiting days, weeks, months, or even years to say anything, because they so heavily blame themselves.

Another reason people respond to rape the way they do, is how rape victims have been routinely treated. Even the questioning by the police officers who are attempting to help you, will by its very nature be intrusive. At this time, this adds to the trauma, and even the way it is done can unfortunately reflect personal attitudes of the interviewer (even though they are supposed to not allow that to happen), which can be either good or bad. That can either help or hurt the victim, depending on how the officer conducts himself. Questions are asked about the type of clothing worn, the activities just prior and immediately after the incident, ugly details of the rape itself, and this adds to the victim's trauma.

In the courtroom, the typical courtroom defense tactic is, and always has been, to attack the victim's character. Why? Because they know that is the tactic that works and is the most likely to get their client off the hook, which is their job. Every bit of dirt about your past, no matter how distant and unrelated, is fair game for an attorney to dig up and throw out into the public domain. So, typically, traumatized rape victims don't want their lives on display like that. The trauma of retelling the event is like being raped all over again, this time, in public. And then on cross examination, it's even worse.

Knowing the gauntlet they have to run through in order to prosecute the crime, many remain silent and limp on with their lives.

Rape is not something you should ever try to survive alone.

However, the fear involved in telling their story, prevents so many people from coming forward or seeking any kind of help at all. Many times, not only do they not prosecute the crime, but they also don't tell anyone. It is a very personal, embarassing crime, which many feel a great deal of shame about, for all the reasons I have outlined. As a result, many people who have suffered this crime, also do not get counseling.

Consequently, the damage to the self-image and self-esteem of victims of this crime is severe, even to someone who was well-adjusted to begin with. However, those who have been victims of any kind of violent crime previously, or previously abused in any way, or have any other mental health issues no matter how small or severe, can experience symptoms with increasing severity and/or frequency, relapses, fall deeper into depression, and even develop psychosis. It is quite common for ANY rape victim, no matter what their background, to at this time develop post traumatic stress disorder.

Regarding your question about promiscuity:

Due to the blow to self-esteem, depression, and identity confusion, many men or women see society as having branded them as "damaged goods" because of their rape experience, and begin to develop self-destructive behaviors, like the promiscuity you mention. It's not that they say "Hey, I'm going to choose now." It is the fact that they, as a result of the trauma, believe they are the scum they've been told they are, develop a self-loathing, and begin to engage in self-destructive behavior.

Some suddenly become promiscuous. Others begin behaviors like self-mutilation. Others drink heavily or abuse drugs. Some turn to food and suddenly will gain 100 or more pounds, in an effort to destroy a once-beautiful body they feel betrayed them. The subconscious belief is, the fat will insulate them from another attack, because now they will be repulsive. Others turn to criminal behavior such as shoplifting. Some abuse others. This is all self-loathing behavior.

So that is all I have time for at the moment. I hope this helps answer a few of your questions about the way human beings normally respond to rape.

Yup, and proud of it it you weenie.

He wants to grow up and be a sexual predator just like his hero.

I'm done with you.

Tomorrow I get to get up and interview REAL men. REAL heroes, with GENUINE integrity.

Something you will never experientially know.

Hear hear!

It's like when you mention Bill Clinton, all some people will talk about is the affair with Lewinsky and the other alleged liaisons.

They will not acknowledge that he did many good things for our country.

There are other threads to dwell on the negative.

To continue to cut and paste the same tired spiel no matter what the thread title makes the poster look pathological.

This was no cut and paste, dear.

This thread took this direction when a poster answered a question Jonny posed and HE DID NOT LIKE THE ANSWER.

And he wants to ignore the truth.

Are you adding your name to the list now?

The title of this thread:A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL, Do you still believe them?

Bolding mine.

Where does it say in the title that this is supposed to be a happy happy joy joy thread?

The originator left it open.

Nice Catcup! I'll bet Paw would throw me out for that one, but not you! Enjoy your celebrity you Victim you! Hahaha!

You know what, I am well aware of the rules. I can't remember being this angry on this board before.

As far as I'm concerned, you're a fkg coward and a blind idiot.

I am done with the likes of you and your ilk.

Congrats on your sales. Has anyone ever heard of the book "The Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India" By Victor Paul Wierwille?

Yep. I have one. Shows up on eBay occasionally and goes quite well.

I am disappointed in the derailment of the thread though, and sad to see those who just can't stay away from hurting someone else's positive experiences.

Sad to see those who just can't stay away from hurting someone else's positive experiences?

You mean, like hurting people who were so excited to finally meet the man of God? And he pokes his prick in your face?

Like, believing the WOW field will be the experience of a lifetime,

and it was,

but not like you thought it was going to be?

I am so sick of you fXcking pigs, who, even when the truth of a first hand witness is right in front of your eyes, you still push it aside and IGNORE IT.

You fail to see that YOU are the very reason so many rape victims suffer in silence.

Do you have any inkling about how many raped women may be reading this in tears, saying to themselves, "hell no, I'm not going through that, I'll keep my damn mouth shut and crawl into a hole somewhere."

You have no idea the raw guts it takes for a woman like Marsha or Ex to tell her story. Just to tell it. To ANYbody. My sister cannot even today tell me everything.

And you have no idea what you do to them when they tell you the truth and you brush them aside like you just did here with excathedra.

Damn you idiots, damn you. You have no fxcking idea what you are doing. You have no idea what it will take for her to get over just telling what she told you. And you just tossed her aside like so much trash. Like VP tossed her aside. Don't you GET IT?

Thank you ex, for sharing your experience. And thank you exwaycorps, for your corroborating information. My hats are off to all of you men here on this thread who have the cojones to stand up for these women who have been raped.

I have no earthly words to express my disdain for you absolute swine who just did what you did. And you don't even realize it.

Or, just maybe you DO.

And that's exactly how evil you ARE.

Made in the exact image of your idol.

You people fXcking make me want to vomit.