Catcup

Catcup, one little snag in this "paradise".. maybe the 70 wives come with 70 angry mothers in law..

*snicker, snort!*

Is not a parent responsible for a 17 year old teen? Why was she out there alone on the wow field? the age of adulthood is 18 always has been.

sex is 17 , but a parent is always responsible for their children till legal age which is 18, how could she go "out wow" without them? at 17 she could not make medical decisions for herself legaly, she coul not sign any contract "lease for apartment" she was not even responsible forher self finanacialy, a parent still carrys the full load at 17. any decision she meade would have fallen on her parents to support and be responsible for how can twi legaly allow her to go? did your parents sign papers saying they would allow it?

the law sure wouldnt.

My parents were brand new grads of the Power For Abundant Living Class, having completed it in July of 1975. This was a class that seemed to bring their two daughters back to them emotionally, when we had been in our separate orbits for a bit, with typical teenage rebelliousness. They had seen my sister and I become more respectful of them and their parental sacrifices for us since becoming grads of PFAL and leading bible fellowships in their home for several years before. They watched us become responsible people, entrusted with the care of many people under our leadership. They figured if TWI trusted us as leaders, they could trust TWI as well. I had already been out WOW ambassador and my parents liked what they thought they saw it do for me, having lived on my own since age 18.

My parents felt secure, back in 1975, for several reasons. A big one was, my sister was to be placed in a family of women with a family coordinator who was Way Corps, and over the age of 21.

Incidentally, she was sent to the very same city I had opened up as a WOW ambassador a year or so before, so there were already people in that state and in that city there, who knew both me and my sister, people who I had gotten in the Word. They knew my family through me, and they knew my sister through meeting her when my folks visited me when I was there on the field, and from meeting her several times at The Rock of Ages. So that gave my parents yet another level of security. It's not like she was being sent to a city full of strangers, with God only knows who. This was mapped out with some thought.

They did sign some kind of paper allowing her to go. She would have turned 18 the following year out on the field. That's why at that time TWI allowed 17 yr olds out on the field-- if they would come of age on the field. They did not allow anyone younger to go. You had to be a high school grad, or the age of a high school grad, to go.

Things were much different back in '75.

And my parents had immense respect and trust in "men of the cloth."

We all placed our trust in the hands of a man who appeared to be very trustworthy at the time.

I've had lots of fun with the locals, over the years.

Seems that once a guy had a title, he was no fun anymore, but everybody else was

often a blast, and didn't see a need to stand on ceremony.

In my opinion, that's where the best times were, and where the real love was, face to face on a local basis.

Several times in Chicago, we got fellowships or WOWs together and did a pizza night. We made Chicago style stuffed pizza from scratch. We would divide up into crews-- dough crew, chopping crew, sauce crew, etc. While one crew was working in the kitchen, the rest of us were hanging out in the rest of the house playing cards, board games, laughing, talking, and having a great time. At the end of the night we had the best home made Chicago stuffed pizza you ever tasted. And plenty of sweet fellowship.

We used to get together to help each other out with home repair projects too-- when we could own homes :/. One of our TC's bought an old ramshackle property near the Indiana Dunes. Great neighborhood, nice lot, but needed a lot of work. He bought the tools, the gloves, provided lots of food and drink, and we all chipped in and helped clean up the property, do landscaping, and afterwards, a great party!

Another time in Chicago, we surprised Bxll Fxrris with a trip on the Bible Lands tour. Bxll was a sixty-something year old african-American cab driver who lived on the poor side of town and had run his own felllowship for about 8 yrs or so before we even got there. He was the ORIGINAL South Side Saint. Matter of fact, I commissioned his wife to design that famous South Side Saints T-Shirt. I thought in honor of his service, wouldn't it be great to do that for him as a surprise-- a once in a lifetime, beyond his dreams trip. At that time it was well over $1500 to send him, but we all banded our spare change, I organized bake sales to put on when New Horizons did free concerts inthe park, and we raised enough money to surprise BXll with this tour. There were a few people who couldn't understand why we weren't doing this to send "the Leadership" on this tour. Hell, WE WERE the leadership. The point was, to honor a simple, basic, faithful believing man who had proved himself over the years to be a good steward and servant of Gods people. For the most part, everyone was excited to do this, and when we announced this to Bill, he was speechless. I'm sure it was the greatest thing that ever happened to this man.

At this date, Bxll is probably gone now. I'm glad we did this for him back in the day. I'm proud we did it.

Now-- THAT is a "good time."

Like I said in other threads, I credit God with the inspiration and the unity and the love and the good times we shared together. When I look back on those good times, it had nothing to do with the (ugh) "man" VPW, the organization, classes, or programs of TWI. It had to do with the unity of the spirit and the body of Christ working together to bless and honor one another. NOT honoring an organization. And as far as I am concerned, we had fun in spite of TWI, not because of them. Usually when they got involved (in whining voice: "Why aren't you sending the leeeeeeeeadership or the Waaaaaaaaaaaaay Corps to the Bible Lands?"), they were trying to be spoilers.

Again I ask this pretty simple question: Could someone please let me know what classes or books were veepee's original authorship?

Even Are The Dead Alive Now?, the book VP was sooooooooo pleased with his research on, quite possibly has lifted passages in it.

While studying at The University of Chicago, Dan McCxnaughy found a book with strikingly similar ideas and concepts. Dan told me that he noted that this volume had also been in the library when VP studied there. He wondered if VP had used it while researching the subject of the dead. He copied the book and sent a copy of it to VP. VP wrote some notes in it and sent it back to Dan. Geek has a photocopy of it. When he stops having to work 12 and 15 hour days, he wants to re-read it and compare it line by line with ADAN. Then we will be able to know if he also stole ideas from this book. Because there are no footnotes for this book in ADAN.

Is it possible he read the information in that book, never took good notes on what he learned, but incorporated the information into his ADAN book without crediting his source because he forgot where he learned it? Quite possibly.

Would that be plaigarism?

Absolutely.

For instance, while writing a paper last year, I thought of a particular comparison that really brought home a point I wanted to make, and I put it in the paper. I had read maybe 20 volumes, each about 200-400 pages each in doing my work. As I re-read my paper before turning it in, I started to have doubts about whether I had actually come up with that comparison on my own, or read it in another book. I started remembering a certain book that I might have gotten that comparison from. Started looking through it to see if I could find it where I thought I might have seen it. But it was a 3 inch thick book, and I had only a few hours before the deadline to turn in my research. I didn't have time to document that comparison properly. So I rewrote my paper to take it out, even though it was valid, and would have made a profound point. Why?

Because if I had included it on the hopes that it really was my own work, and it wasn't, and a professor knew where that idea came from, I COULD BE DISMISSED FROM THE COLLEGE FOR PLAGIARISM.

Plagiarism can be due to intentional deceit, or it can be due to sloppy notetaking.

VPW was guilty of both.

IN ADDITION TO BEING A SEXUAL PREDATOR.

And you guys want to revere this man for his "INTEGRITY"?

BTW-- Got an A+ on that paper............

My sister was 17 years old.

Many of Vic's victims were teenagers.

That man, the man you so revere, was a sexual predator.

We're not talking about a man who made one mistake. As I remember with David, he had this problem with Bathsheba. That is one woman, right? David suffered the consequences God promised of losing his son. David repented.

And David took Bathsheba to be his wife.

What did Wierwille do with the women he used?

He did not love them, he used them, then recycled them, until they were useless, then threw them away.

Where was Wierwille's repentance?

How many MORE teenage girls did he do between 1975 and 1985?

Where was his repentance?

There's the difference for ya.

hell is starting to look a lot lot better than some people's version of heaven..

Sorry Ham, you got me going on the humor thing and I just gotta tell ya....

Heaven can also start to look like some people's version of hell.

Just a nugget from one of several of my classes on the middle east, from an article in ISLAM WATCH called Virgins? What Virgins? written by Ibn Warruq. Just imagine if you as a suicide bomber, instead of waking up to black-eyed virgins, woke up to this.... :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/...,631332,00.html

Disclaimer... Ibn Warruq is his pen name. And as scholarly as the work appears to be, there are some linguists who differ....

It's still funny!

No one argued that it was ethical that does not make it rape nor does it make it impossible to resist it's easy to hold someone else accountable for your actions but we all have free will.

If you don't understand it now, I doubt you ever will. So, whatever.

No one is ignoring your link it's another opinion which one can subscribe to or not. You do because it fits your purpose it's not the all in all answer who made her the only authority? That would be a fine theory if no one ever walked away and said no enough is enough but many did. Apparently they were not all turned into robotic zombies that must obey by the all mighty power and authority, or perhaps they just exercised some common sense or maybe Gee....... here is a thought some biblical sense. Now what ever will we do with those who don't fit in her pat theory?

It's not a "pat theory" Dove, it is accepted among medical institutions, institutions of higher learning, and yes, even churches.

The standard of professional behavior among the relationships previously mentioned is based upon the knowledge of this kind of problem which can occur.

Yes, you are ignoring that.

Telling isn't it...????

After wierwille had built his yes-men enclave (a subset of corps leadership)...and had a motorcoach to conceal his lusts/predation....and cunningly crafted his stage persona....HIS UNBRIDLED, SELF-GRATIFICATION CAME TO THE FOREFRONT.

You vpw-defenders can hold onto your idol-like adulation for wierwille all you want, but you are only deceiving yourselves. Personally, I don't give a d@mn.

I spent 24 years defending twi and the man who taught me pfal......yet, before a court of law I can honestly say that I suppressed DOZENS OF INCIDENTS that were very questionable behavior, and outlandish reproof sessions that made me secretly think that wierwille was periodically possessed by devil spirits. I've shared THREE such incidents on GS before....so I'll refrain from them.

And, yes.....I've been on the receiving end of wierwille's contempt and thrashing reproof. It wasn't pretty...and I can't imagine what it must have been like for those girls who wierwille raped...!!!!!

Imagine....22 years of silence, a wonderful family broken by wierwille and his silencers, verbally attacking catcup (a corps student requesting answers)......TALK ABOUT SHATTERING THE SILENCE OF A CULT'S PREDATION AMONG US...!!!

Catcup.....thanks for your contributions to GS. I appreciate it and have always been impressed by strength and warmth to encourage others.

Thanks again.

You're welcome Sky.

As you know, it was not fun to have to stand before the wrath of Victor Paul Wierwille.

But I am glad that I will be standing in my own shoes when I stand before God, and not his.

It is never easy to drag this all up again. But the way the worm turned here proved the point.

The attitude of the predator was propagated in his own image in those who defend his actions and deny what these women went through.

My undying admiration is reserved for those brave souls who not only survived, but find the strength every morning to get up and live and breathe anyway, in spite of what happened.

What's your point regarding Solomon?

He started out with a lot of potential. His first test of wisdom right out of the box was amazing.

Yes, he is credited with having penned, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. One might assume that he repented many times during his life of various sins...

I know his major sin - at least the one most harp on - was idolotry (not rape) as I recall. He had many. many wives. He apparently liked the pagan idea of a harem. Are you equating this with vpw's lust for young girls?

Connect the dots for me please...

Here we go:

First dot: Solomon repented, and wrote so eloquently about his repentance God saw fit to memorialize it for all time.

Second dot: Victor Paul Wierwille NEVER DID. All he could do is admit he didn't have the courage to do what he knew was right.

Did someone say humor??

what's more fun than watching a wacky squirrel chasing it's tail..

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...=14905&st=0

thanks, I needed that...........

Squirrels are in my opinion tree rats.

One lady was trapping them and then painted them to see if they came back. Yes they do. Remove them more than 10 miles.

Am trrying to picture her getting the squirrel to hold still while she sprays it with flourescent orange paint....:D

It only takes the power company an hour and a half to get out and replace the fuse when they step the wrong way up the pole. Sounds like a cannon going off.

A family of squirrels have built a nest directly under the transformer on the pole at the end of my back yard.

I can't wait for that to explode in the middle of the night.

I'll probably need a dose of nitroglycerine for myself!

Cat thank you for taking the time to share what you did. I know that you will never convince those whom willingly remain ignorant....but it is like someone else said....there are many who will read of your families treatment and...recognise the spiritual depravity of those whom we once held in such esteem...they will begin THEIR journey towards healing and wholeness.

These are the stories that break the mental chains that bound so many of us for so many years even after physically leaving twi.

What suprises me is how far folks will go to make villains out of the people who dare to merely SPEAK of the evil that vpw/lcm/Geer practiced....rather than being outraged and deeply offended at what these men DID utilizing the name of God and scriptures to enforce their sick wishes.

You're welcome Rascal. The real reason I share this stuff, is not because I need to say it. I have moved on with my life. But other people need to be freshly reminded not only of the pain that TWI caused, and can still cause, but they need to see there are still people out there who support that kind of predation, and that they are active and vicious.

It underlines again, that if you do speak out, you risk being hurt again. But it exposes the wicked and their venom.

Sorry Catcup, but the facts don't support you in this case.

I'm pretty sure they do. You are still ignoring the facts.

You always will.

You epitomize the very reason women find it nigh to impossible to bring charges against the men who rape them.

Because people like you victimize them all over again.

Think about that.

Oh, I forgot. You can't afford to.

At this point, compared to other threads, it's light humor...........

It is a sad truth. Unfortunately; many were litterally chewed up and spit out. I just had my leg chewed on in comparison. I have been reading your posts in another thread and I must say I am so very sorry for you and your entire family. Thank you for sharing with us all so that we may all come to a better understanding of TWI and VP.

You're welcome.

I don't mind sharing for people who want to understand. It's those who, after hearing, stubbornly will to remain ignorant that tick me off.

And don't forget, some posters are accusing Dr. Wierwille of raping this girl "M". She freely goes back a second time and Wierwille gets accused of RAPE.

Adultery yes. He was wrong. But please call it what it was.

You are willingly ignorant

I called it exactly what it is.

RAPE

,she could have never returned anywhere near the motor coach and given her self described rage I have no clue why she would have.

Get a clue at the following link, please.

This is why it is rape: This is why her judgement was not clear: This is why there are professional codes of conduct regarding superiors and subordinates, doctors and patients, students and teachers.

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editor...-an-affair.html

This has to be like the third time I have posted this link.

It is being ignored.

Damn Catcup - we're good!

Haven't lost our touch I see, after all these years :)

Yup, me and Catcup with Auntie Em in the Bookstore one year in the early '80s.

Proud to be a member of the "scum of the crik" Way Bookstore alumni from that year.

ok cat cup . a long post indeed, I think the manner it was written needed clarifying .

enjoy

Sorry it was unclear, hope that helps.

Uenjoy2

I wouldn't call it worship, that is a false accusation; but am thankful for their efforts.

I didn't realize Catcup that you are no longer are involved in CFF, personally. That may actually encourage more people to attend.

On the other hand, my better half teaches there and constantly reminds them how much he has learned from me and how I help him out.

And lo and behold, they still invite him back to teach.

Go figure.

That's mighty Christian of you, Catcup. You and Sunesis make a great tag team.

Am also wondering, if you really think, deep down, of CFF leaders and teachers as pigs and wusses for still respecting Wierwille and PFAL.

Why, feeling porky, Oldies?

And I am also wondering, why you want MY opinion on CFF leaders? And which ones? Aha. That's the rub, isn't it, now.

Another thing you choose to forget: I am not personally involved.

For all you who don't get it already, Oldies is wanting to lead the thread on yet another direction now as a way to deflect attention from himself, and has been trying to do it for several pages.

I believe both were involved in blessings; God, and the organization and its participants.

Just like CFF...

Well I don't know. If this were true and the proper way to think in this day and time, would CFF still be teaching ooodles of Wierwillianiams?

So you now worship not only VPWs words, but also enshrine the efforts of other men as well?

Catcup, awesome posts.

Why is it, its always the same couple of VP worshippers people spend their time on? Some of you, Oldies, et al., will never, ever get it or understand it.

What is is about VP to you? A father figure archtype - something you never had and he fills the void?

LCM, Geer, and some of you idolize him. It is idolitry.

Catcup, thanks for sharing, but sometimes, its best not to throw your pearls before swine.

You're right Sunesis, there are some real pigs out there.

But this pearl is for those who sit and read silently in tears...and understand.

Is it possible to be greatly thankful for what you got from TWI and deeply sorrowful for the unimaginable hurt someone else received in TWI? Whether or not certain people fit that category is not my question. Just wanna know, is it possible?

Yes, I believe it is possible.

It says here "my sister not only waited until after VPW died to tell me what happened". care to change it now?

but 22 more years you do the math.

Pond, I have related this story on WayDale and GSC before. So I have reiterated only certain portions in order to not belabor the incident. however, for your benefit, since you are missing some chronology and details, here it is again.

In 1975 after I ran a PFAL class for my parents, I went in residence in the 6th Way Corps, and my perfectly well-adjusted 17 year old sister went out WOW Ambassador.

So, my parents are brand new grads, and my sister is a brand new WOW, and I am brand new Way Corps. Capiche? Good.

VPW that fall gets his bright, shiny, brand new motorcoach, and takes it on a whirlwind tour to visit the WOW ambassadors. He also discovers it has nifty side benefits.

Thanksgiving comes, and my excited brand-new-grad parents make a long-haul two day trip from southern Indiana to a coastal state to visit my sister and her WOW family. They are treated warmly and lovingly, with hugs all around. My sister and her WOW family are happy and excited, and announce VPW is coming for a visit in a few days. My parents leave and make the long-haul two day trip all the way back home to Indiana.

In a little while, I get pulled aside in residence in Emporia. I have a phone call. Some kind of emergency at home. I go to the phone, pick it up, and my Mom is on the other end. It seems almost as soon as they got home, they got a call from someone on the WOW field to come and pick up my sister. No explanation, no nothing. No time to even ask a question. Just come pick her up, immediately. Click.

So, my parents, who JUST GOT HOME from their long trip and are not even unpacked, have to turn around, climb back into the car, spend another two days to drive all the way back out to where my sister is to find out what is going on. Her stuff is packed and at the curb. No hello, no how are you, no hugs. No explanation. Just take her and get out of here. They were treated rudely and brusquely. This confused them after such a warm welcome just a few days before. For two days they drive home through the hills and hollows of South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, and finally Indiana. My sister did not speak a word the entire time. Nor did she eat a single bite of food, or drink a drop of anything. She just silently sobbed.

When they got her home she would not come out of her room. She would not get out of bed. They could not get her to talk or eat. She could not sleep. All she did was cry.

And cry.

So my Mom called me and asked me what to do. My sister wouldn't tell them anything. Mom and Dad were confused about how they were treated. They knew something was wrong, but didn't know what it was or what to do. She wanted my advice and wanted to know if I knew who to talk to to find out what happened. I knew VPW would be at Emporia the next day and I knew that whatever happened had to have transpired while he was there. Surely he would know what happened. Surely I could ask him, and he would gently and honestly tell me what happened to her and why she was sent home, and why my parents were treated so coldly. Surely he would make that right and find out why my parents were treated that way, and give me advice on how to handle the situation with my sister.

So that afternoon I wrote him a letter and took it to interoffice to make sure it would be there for him as soon as he arrived.

Next day, me and VP. "What can I do for you?" He seemed surprised I knew about this WOW in S. Carolina. Then he quickly connected the dots that I was her sister, and he became unhinged. I asked him to tell me what happened that day when he visited my sister in South Carolina, and why was she dismissed from the Wow Field. I began to tell him how coldly my parents were treated and he became flustered, loud, and thunderously declared in an intimidating manner, "She just couldn't handle the WOW field!!!!!! Any other questions???!!!!!!!!!" His manner led me to believe he felt I was asking intrusive questions that I should already know the answer to. The insinuation was, she was possessed. I felt lower than dirt for even bringing it up and upsetting "THE Man of God." I must have a lot to learn spiritually if I don't understand this, so I guess I'm just novice Corps who needs to just shut up and go away.

When Mom called and asked how that turned out, I had no answers for her. My sister was even worse and my parents, new grads, were at their wits end. They eventually send her to counseling. It doesn't help. Nothing seems to help. How does a person who has been well-adjusted all her life, suddenly in the matter of two or three days, turn into a person who cannot eat or sleep, and cries 24/7?

My sister eventually makes an effort to return to fellowship after about a year.

So now we are talking 1976-77.

She starts tentatively going back to fellowship. Because she is an advanced class grad, the branch leader decides to give her a twig.

Without consulting whether or not she feels capable of leading one.

He simply announces at a branch meeting that she will be the next new twig leader.

She stands up, stops him, and begins to try to tell him she doesn't think she is in a position to be responsible for other people's lives yet.

He thunders across the room at her how much of a cop-out she is, and that because of people like her our entire country is going to hell in a handbasket.

She walked out and never went back to a fellowship again.

I saw her at family gatherings and when I would come home for visits to my parents.

She never, ever, while I was still in The Way ministry, spoke ONE, not ONE word against VPW or TWI. NOT ONE.

1985. VPW dies. That is what, 10 years after the incident.

VPW is dead. My sister STILL has not told me what happened, and I do not ask. I have been repeatedly warned to limit her access to my heart. My sister had plenty of opportunity to say whatever she wanted, and IF she wanted to say something, she didn't.

February, 1997. After decades of confronting people in TWI, and getting defamed for it, I finally leave.

March 1997. Indiana leadership inform my parents they have to put my sister out of their house. Dad refuses and tells them to kiss off.

Still, my sister is silent. She still has not said anything. Why? She wants to make sure our leaving is for real before she does. She doesn't want to speak too soon and then be cut out of our lives.

June or July 1997. Sister purchases her first computer from Geek and we go down to Indiana to deliver it and put it together. Geek puts it together and goes upstairs.

It's our first time on the internet. I put The Way International in the search engine. The first thing that comes up is M's story.

I read it. I recognize her. I am shocked.

My sister looks at it for the first time. She asks me, timidly, "What do you think about her story?" I was stunned. I didn't know what to say.

Then my sister finally felt safe enough to let her story tumble out.

She told me she had kept it to herself for so long because she was afraid no one would believe her, and that we would cut her out of her life, and we were all she had.

1975 to 1997. That's twenty two years she COULD have said derrogatory things about VPW and didn't, because she was afraid. TWELVE of those years, VPW was dead. If she was waiting for him to DIE before she brought it up, she would have brought it up TWELVE YEARS EARLIER.

She kept silent out of fear of losing the only family she had.

Now if you cannot understand that, I have no earthly words to describe your density.

she waited till vpw died ok.

NO, she did not wait for VPW to die.

If that was true, she would have said something in 1985.

She was so frightened if she told us what happened we would not believe her, and worse yet, cut her out of our lives forever.

So she waited until AFTER I left TWI of my own accord before she felt safe enough to tell me what happened.

That was Twenty Two years after the fact.

What does that tell you about the impact VPW left on her, and how frightened she was of the power of that organization over her family, that she was afraid to tell me the truth for twenty two years?

If she had an axe to grind, she would have spoken up years sooner.

That's not a person with an axe to grind. That's a person who is deeply and profoundly afraid.