WordWolf

quote:

Originally posted by rascal:

Can`t remember now if he said that it was apostle or prophet now that you press me on it Allan...well it was one or the other....guess after two decades the memort slips a little. Does anybody else remember which?

He claimed "an apostle is one who brings new light to his generation.

It may be old light, but to the people he brings it to, it's new."

Actually, an apostle is a SENT ONE. vpw invented his definition so that it would just

happen to apply to him.

He claimed he was teaching "The Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century".

Therefore, he expected his audience to figure out he was supposedly an apostle.

As Goey pointed out, he said "a prophet is one who speaks for God."

It IS true that he claimed that "technically" David's sin with Bathsheba was NOT

adultery, since "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king."

That's straight out of PFAL, both the classes and the books.

It comes up frequently on lists of Actual Errors in pfal.

The "riddle of the Sphinx" thing is straight out of Bullinger's

"Witness of the Stars".

What did lcm say about it?

quote:

Originally posted by oldiesman:

quote:

Oldiesman, I first have to say I sincerely hope that the leg is on the mend nicely.

Oenophile, thanks, it is coming along great.

quote:

I believe had I known back then that the good doctor had taken other's works as his own, I would not have swallowed hook, line and sinker all of what he taught. That element of distrust, at least, would have overshadowed everything that he taught. Which, incidentlly, was my reaction to his words once I found out about his works!

I get what you mean, but perhaps it was a good thing for some of us that we didn't know.

Yes, it was better that he be allowed to deceive us!!!!

quote:

I've been saying for some time, that folks were turn off the Word because of Wierwille's sins and sins of people.

The lesson here is that the man representing God should NOT SIN,

not that we should ignore his sins.

quote:

It's a biblical truth that stumblingblocks happen, and it just makes sense and here's more evidence.

There's a difference between struggling against temptation,

and deliberately making occasion for it.

Deliberately choosing to hide your sources and claiming to originate the work,

thus putting forth that yourself was some great one,

is a decision, which you then put into action all by yourself.

quote:

In the final analysis, guess it all comes down to whether one believes twi taught the truth or not, in its original form or not.

No, that is a separate issue.

"Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth.

But plagiarism matters. Plagiarism may not reflect on the accuracy of the information

that's stolen, but it does reflect on the character of the plagiarist. The plagiarist is

a liar, a thief, an arrogant, lazy, self-important person who dismisses the hard work

of other people and disrespects the intelligence of his readers

(by presuming the readers will never learn if the infraction.)"

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm

quote:

I still think in many areas it did communicate truth, notwithstanding lifting the information from other sources. I'm still glad it was communicated to me, and have a great appreciation of the original sources as well.

Even if it was all 100% factually correct, the plagiarism was still wrong.

quote:

I think God was working to help people there, despite the secret sins we didn't know about.

God is ALWAYS working to help people. This is not a free pass to sin.

quote:

I think God doesn't stop moving because of people's sins.

:)-->

However, should we refrain from sinning, or is it equally "right" to sin as much as we

feel like, knowing God will keep moving even if we deceive the brethren and do other

things to them that are sins and criminal actions?

quote:

Originally posted by gc:

Yet, here is a man of God who taught Godly standards, who expected others to have Godly standards, yet lied about all of his research, his books and his visitation from God and made his living from those lies.

Now, keeping in mind that I didn't quite understand the significance of plagiarization back then, however I did understand what it meant when someone lied or stole. It meant that they were not trustworthy. I believe had I known back then that the good doctor had taken other's works as his own, I would not have swallowed hook, line and sinker all of what he taught. That element of distrust, at least, would have overshadowed everything that he taught. Which, incidentlly, was my reaction to his words once I found out about his works! And most likely, I would have not stayed in the ministy as long.

gc

THIS

is the point.

And it doesn't take an advanced degree to see that it's wrong-

everyone CAN see that it's wrong.

Sorry Raf,

I should have asked you BEFORE I pulled my little stunt.

I thought an ILLUSTRATION would make the point clear.

It's WRONG to take someone else's work, change a few words,

maybe leave out a little, then claim you originated it.

(You do that by failing to give proper attribution.)

Plagiarism is morally wrong, AND illegal.

Plagiarism demonstrates a moral failing on the part of the plagiarist.

When the plagiarist claims to represent God, it shows a deliberate moral failing

that shows he is unworthy of trust.

Actually, in pulling my little stunt,

I thought the extensive quote would be spotted immediately by everyone,

since it was right off the main website.

I thought people would see my point, which was in the closing

of that post, which was the only part NOT ripped off from Raf...

quote:

Originally posted by WordWolf:

And, one last question:

Don't you get bugged when you see someone plagiarizing-attempting to pass off someone else's

work as their own? Doesn't that dishonesty bother you?

quote:

Originally posted by oldiesman:

quote:

Plus the buyers.. are they going to go rush to the local bookstore and purchase the original seller's product? "I Trow Not.."

Go to now, Mr. Hammeroni.

Don't ya think that lots of folks who enjoy Wierwille's books might go out and buy the works of Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, et al.? See it in the "original"? Heck I would.

We've been discussing this for most of a decade.

Oldiesman?

Would you really?

Then, answer these simple questions...

Do you currently own a copy of JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Holy Spirit"?

How many books of Leonard and Kenyon do you own?

How many of Bullinger's books do you own outside of "the Companion Bible" and

"How to Enjoy the Bible"? For that matter, do you own THOSE books?

quote:

Originally posted by johniam:

Right now I'm wondering what VP DIDN'T copy from those men. Probably some weird stuff.

Less than you'd think-he plagiarized the 1942 promise!

BG Leonard:

quote:

One day God spoke to me. "If thou wilt wait patiently before me, I will give thee

the revelation concerning that which is written in my Word touching these things; the

revelation my people need to bring them out of their chaos and confusion." I believed

God. For months I waited before His presence in solitude, During those wonderful days,

He revealed the truth to me concerning the gifts of the Spirit. As He did, these things

were proven by acting upon the knowledge thus received, and by examining the results

in light of His Word.

Add "an early October invisible snowstorm", and inflate it to "like it hasn't been

known" and you have the 1942 promise.

quote:

Originally posted by oldiesman:

quote:

vee pee he told us that. Even you said it.... he knew the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. You're contradicting yourself all over the place, my friend.

Friend Belle, being taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century, and saying that VPW was the SOLE SOURCE of accuracy, are two very different things. Obviously, he wasn't the sole source. I think you are drawing conclusions that you shouldn't.

"Obviously he wasn't the sole source."

Obviously you've forgotten what vpw said about other Christians all the time,

calling their seminary "cemetaries" and so on.

He didn't "mellow out" on that over time, either.

Here's what vpw himself said in May 12, 1985....

(not long before he died)

"Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen very few answers.

If we knew where there were more, we'd go get 'em!"

How's that selective memory working for you?

quote:

Originally posted by oldiesman:

Also, we learned in 1972 that lots of VPW's stuff was not original, as was stated in "The Way Living in Love". Somehow it seems other folks didn't realize that he got lots of his stuff from other men, but I got that idea early on and it really doesn't surprise me that he got ooodles of stuff from other men. But then Wierwille said "putting it all together so that it fit -- that was the original work."

And so he's correct there. Far as I can tell, he didn't steal TWI from anyone. He founded it, put it together and made it work in his time.

As that book has it, he learned a little bit from THIS man and a little from THAT

man,

THEN he went and studied out the subjects from the Bible,

THEN he assembled his pfal classes.

"Putting it all together so that it fit" was NOT the original work.

They ALREADY fit. All he did was assemble them together.

That's hardly considered "originality".

That's taking Leonard's class, adding Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible"

and Stiles' "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" and calling it an original work.

Furthermore, he NEVER gave proper attribution.

twi was the result of ripping off a number of Christians,

organizing it into an organization that concentrated authority at the top,

then merchandizing it brilliantly.

Any good car-salesman could have managed the same if he got a grounding in the right

Christian sources.

quote:

All this doesn't mean he didn't plagiarize, I understand that. What I'm saying is, even had he given proper written acknowledgement, it wouldn't have changed my direction or commitment.

It wouldn't change YOURS. Great.

It would have affected a lot of people who were-and are STILL being told-

that the SOLE SOURCE of accurate knowledge of God is twi-

and NOT that Christians in other places know much of ANYTHING.

quote:

Originally posted by oldiesman:

quote:

So if vee pee made his claim about throwing out all the books in the middle of the PFAL, then he was essentially leading us to believe that all of PFAL came from his widdle head, the Bible and God, wasn't he?

Well, there is conflicting information about this. I don't have all the answers to this. VPW could have done a lot of the research on his own, which could have been the same research someone else did, years before. That's not impossible to imagine. Then again, we do have evidence of all the men of God he learned from who were scattered across the continent. No question he learned from these men.

"THERE IS CONFLICTING INFORMATION ON THIS?"

On what planet?

vpw meets JE Stiles.

vpw buys JE Stiles' books.

vpw "writes" a book that uses IDENTICAL PHRASEOLOGY as Stiles' book-even when Stiles'

vocabulary diverges RADICALLY from that of vpw's-using Stiles' ideas and his actual words.

vpw is told about EW Bullinger's books.

vpw buys every book Bullinger ever wrote.

vpw "writes" books that contain entire chapters and subjects straight from Bullinger's books.

vpw takes Leonard's class.

vpw then goes out and teaches "his" class that contains a compilation of Leonard's

class, Bullinger's book and Stiles' book.

There is nothing that can argue AGAINST this.

It's not impossible to "IMAGINE" all sorts of things-like God giving him the books by

dictation or Jesus teaching from the Orange Book. However, even you admit that it is

irrefutable he learned from those men.

What possible reason could we have that he learned from those men

(they were "scattered across the continent?" They were together and something split them

apart?)

THEN to go out and learn this for the first time from God?

The only CONFLICTING INFORMATION is a desire to claim there were things he did NOT learn

from the original writers.

quote:

Originally posted by oldiesman:

Belle, that's pretty easy to explain. If God taught VPW the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century church, it could be in the available ways for VPW to learn. i.e., thru other people.

Had VPW given proper written acknowledgement to other mens ideas in his books, would that act have negated his claim? I trow not.

Actually,

it contradicts his claim.

Had vpw been prepared to give proper written acknowledgement to other mens' ideas AND

WRITINGS in his books, he would have been HONEST, thus obeying the laws of the US,

showing proper respect to other men of God, and shown respect to his audience by telling

them the truth in a truthful way.

HOWEVER,

if he HAD done so, he would NOT have been able to say

"only God and I knew all this because I'm special".

He would have been able to put for that he was A teacher,

but not that he was THE TEACHER.

quote:

Originally posted by oldiesman:

Belle, that's pretty easy to explain. If God taught VPW the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century church, it could be in the available ways for VPW to learn. i.e., thru other people.

Oh. My. God.

You're ACTUALLY promulgating "the 1942 promise."

That's the thing where vpw claimed to be sitting in his office...

"And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would

teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to

others."

"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I came to the point by

the next day where I said to myself- maybe it's true. So the next day I talked to God

again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me yesterday, if that was really

you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that I really know, so that I can

believe.' The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful

early autumn day. I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a

sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I opened them.

The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling station

on the corner not 75 feet away."

So, supposedly,

according to you, then,

God gave vpw a snowstorm-either actual or a vision.

Weather reports confirm there was no actual snowstorm.

Supposedly,

according to you, then,

God taught vpw God's Word like it had not been known since the First Century AD,

if vpw would teach it to others. vpw then taught it to others.

In the first century AD, there were no printing presses, What was known was the spoken

word and the Old Testament. There was no unified vision of things, as Acts clearly shows,

and as the Epistles show. (Why rebuke division if there is no division?)

So, "as it was known in the First Century" is a cute concept which is a convenient FICTION.

In the first century AD, Christians were on the run. They made sure other Christians were not

in financial straits, and spent time together where they could find it, eating together, etc.

Where they found a haven, they stayed and taught. (Like a short time at the School of

Tyrannus.) They were hardly an "organized" bunch, definitely not centralized. If they saw a

need in another city's Christians, someone passed the hat around, and they sent money.

Compare them to twi.

Everything centrally organized.

Everything centrally controlled.

Everything STANDARDIZED-everyone took the same classes.

All the money goes ONE WAY.

Permanent locations.

What the top leader says, goes-no questions.

Organized meetings.

Extensive study of Greek, but NO time for charity.

The first-century Christian church would never RECOGNIZE twi.

So, the idea that vpw's work in any way RESEMBLED the First-Century Christian church is a

pipe-dream.

Everything vpw taught was ALREADY being taught at the time he "learned" it. Supposedly,

GOD would teach him "like it hadn't been known since..." but it was ALREADY KNOWN!

So, THAT part was a fiction. vpw's "GOD" should have known better.

vpw learned all this from other people's works, not by studying the Bible himself, and NOT

from the utterance of God. So, the entire basis of this claim is false.

So, the supposed basis of authority of twi was the supposed vision that the supposed man

of God vpw claimed to receive. This vision was either completely made up by vpw, or was

received from a source OTHER than God, who would know better.

So, your own statement- that God taught him like nobody knew since the First Century

by way of other people- contains an internal contradiction.

If it was already known, the promise is a lie.

If it was NOT already known, then there would be NO other people to learn this from.

As it was, extensive evidence has shown that vpw read the works of other Christian writers,

then supposedly claimed he learned them from God and nobody knew them.

quote:

Originally posted by shazdancer:

Whoa, Wordwolf. I just thought of something.

(Every now and then, I think of something, just by accident!) ;)-->

"over 3,000 volumes..."

I'm sitting at the computer, looking at the bookshelves that line one wall. Each shelf is about 22 inches across, and can hold about 25 books, if they aren't real thick. If the bookcases went all the way to the ceiling, there would be room for 7 shelves, or about 175 books. VP would've needed over 17 bookcases full to satisfy his claim.

Now think about his life. He was a student, then a young pastor making very little money his first year. He had a wife. He had a tot and an infant. He said Rosalind Rinker had told him to "lay aside all other reading material and study the Bible as the Word of God...he took her advice and started intensely studying God's Word in the late summer of '42....*" He supposedly saw snow on the gaspumps a month later.

So how could he afford to own 3,000 books???

Hmmm...

Shaz

*the quote is from a booklet called "The Teacher Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille," which was distributed at ROA '85. Even I know how to give credit, and it doesn't make my statement any more difficult to read. :D-->

We discussed this before, Shaz. :)-->

vpw said

quote:

For years I did nothing but read around the Word of God. I used to read 2 or 3

theological works weekly for month after month and year after year....

One day I finally became so disgusted and tired of reading around the Word that I hauled over

3,000 volumes of theological works to the city dump. I decided to quit reading around

The Word. Consequently, I have spent years studying The Word-its integrity, its meaning,

its words.

Those of you who want the page numbers or a fuller quotation can look at my EARLIER posts

in this same thread. (Nobody accuse me of leaving that out this time-I'm announcing that

you can scroll up for that.)

WordWolf (me!) said the following once on that same subject Shaz just brought up.

quote:

For those of you following along at home, if he read FOUR books a week (as opposed

to "2 or 3" as he said) every week, every year, it would take 15 years to make it thru 3,000

volumes-without rereading any. (4 books times 52 weeks is 208 books a year. 15 years at that

pace would make it thru all those books.) Considering he had to be either completing his

education, working, or both during this time, and uncluding things like a trip to India

interrupting this, this would be an INCREDIBLE pace to maintain.

quote:

Anybody know where he kept such a collection of books? If he could fit 25 books on a

shelf-which would mean they are pretty small books-he would need 120 shelves. If he could

fit each shelf in a 3-foot space, and stacked the shelves 7 high, he would need over 40

stacks. This would require at least 2 regular rooms just to store all the books, or one

room with 48' on 2 walls, and 12' on the other 2 walls.

Someone suggested that "professional academic journals are often rather thin. I think a

thousand volumes of them can easily fit into a small closet."

This would assume that the overwhelming majority of the 3000 books would be

"professional academic journals".

Someone also said

"I've noticed that often people buy entire personal libraries at a time at auctions, or are

given libraries of elderly or deceased scholars."

This would assume that either

A) vpw found one or more auctions of personal libraries of professional academic journals

and purchased 3000 books at one or more auctions

or

B) one or more persons donated to vpw entire academic libraries of professional academic

journals, 3000 books' worth of them, or almost 3,000-

and yet a feat of philanthropy this remarkable was HIDDEN by vpw all these years, that he

felt it was not worthy of mention by description, that the donor or source should remain

entirely anonymous.

Therefore, since vpw had the opportunity to do so, this means either:

A) vpw acquired nearly 3000 books by auction or donation,

and those sources had THOUSANDS of professional academic journals

SPECIFICALLY on the Bible or Theology

AND vpw decided to HIDE the specifics of this

or

B) vpw had access to storage space that exceeds the conventional views of

time and space as understood by all Americans to this day,

possibly by quantum tunnelling the books to some other planet

AND he NEVER divulged a word of this to ANY of his students or

anyone else, letting these wizard-like secrets vanish with his death

AND never using them for anything else but books

or

C) vpw lied thru his teeth all his life about this.

Occam's Razor would suggest that B) should be dismissed, and A) considered the longshot,

and C) is correct- especially since he was a proven liar, such as about his miraculous

Tulsa snowstorm (which never happened) and the angel-on-the-phone that kept him from

leaving town- so he has a HISTORY of lying intentionally.

In all fairness, I thought the opposing point of view should be mentioned, since it came up.

As you can see, however, it was hardly an unassailable argument.

As posted previously, John Juedes wrote the following on this subject.

quote:

Plagiarism is COPYING from an author. When VP wrote books, he put his name on the cover, saying

"I wrote this--no one else." When writers quote another author, they cire the source, saying

"I wrote this book--but not this paragraph, I'm only copying this part from the author I'm naming

now."

VPW copied A LOT from other authors, but didn't admit that he did by putting their names in the

text or notes. So readers all assumed "VPW wrote this whole book," which is one thing that

impressed people. They figured that if VPW could write lots of books, he must have studied the

Word a lot and found out stuff himself. This drew a lot of followers. But this was all a lie,

because vast sections of "VPW's" writings weren't his-- they were copied word-for-word,

without references. VP lied like this for 30 years, from the 1st or 2nd edition of RTHST to a

Way Magazine article just before he died.

VP doubled the lie by saying often that he learned on his own. Remember the part of Power for

Abundant Living when VP said he took ALL his books to the dump and read the Word alone? He

said "I hauled over 3,000 volumes of theological works to the city dump. I decided to quit

reading around the Word. Consequently, I have spent years studying the Word..."(p.119-120.)

Or the great story in "The Way Living in Love" in which VP tells a fawning Elena Whiteside that

"He [God] spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the

Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others" (p.178.)

TWI thought this was so fantastic that it dates its anniversary to this alleged event rather

than to the formation of TWI.

Have you read the intro of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" in which he says he

"put aside all I had heard and thought out myself, and I started anew with The Bible as my

handbook as well as my textbook (p.x). Then VPW copied 70% of RTHST directly from other

authors. He wrote that in the 3rd edition, but in the second edition he admitted learning

from "someone". The fact that he replaced his statement that he learned from someone

(J.E. Stiles, whom he never mentioned by name) with a statement that he learned it all himself

from the Bible alone shows how consciously he lied for his own self-promotion. This isn't the

kind of character or spiritual leader to admire.

Why didn't Stiles, EW Bullinger, EW Kenyon, BG Leonard and others make a fuss when VP stole

their work? VP is the small-timer here. By the time VPW got more than a couple thousand

followers (the size of literally thousands of individual churches across the country) it was

alreadt the mid-1970s. By that time, Stiles, Kenyon, Cliffe, Starr, and Bullinger, had long

lost track of VP and were probably all dead. When Leonard finally found out about VP's

plagiarism, he started adding explicit and blunt copyright notes in his books warning people

not to plagiarize.

Even at TWI's peak, VP was basically an unknown outside of towns which hosted his

"root locations." VP's books were never available in bookstores or offered for sale via radio

ads (although this may have been attempted once without success)--only by taking the class and

getting on TWI's mailing list. By controlling sale of the books closely, VP limited his

exposure. If TWI hadn't been mentioned in articles along with other cults during the cults craze

of the 1970's, it's been almost totally unknown on a national scale. I've spent 20 years

dropping the names VPW and TWI and getting just blank stares. VPW and TWI have always had

greatly inflated views of themselves, their influence and nature.

At its core, plagiarism ls laziness, lying and egotistic self-promotion. Plagiarism is LAZINESS

because VP seldom studies the Bible on his own, but copied and read others' writings. Plagiarism

is LYING because he led readers to believe that he wrote the books himself, rather than making

clear in footnotes that he copied others' words and ideas. Plagiarism is EGOTISTIC SELF-PROMOTION

because VP tried to make himself look like a prodigious author when he was only a deceptive

copyist.

Dr John Juedes, 2000.

quote:

Originally posted by jkboehme:

For additional proof of Wierwille’s plagiarism re ADAN, please see:

Facts & Theories As to a Future State, by F.W. Grant; Payne Brothers (1879)

The Origins of Dispensationalism: The Darby Factor, by L. Crutchfield

John Nelson Darby, by W.G. Turner; McKay & Co. (1944)

A Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement, by H.A. Ironside; Zondervan (1942)

The Household Church: Apostolic Practice in a Modern Setting, by H.L. Ellison; Paternoster Press (1963)

The Rapture Plot, by D. MacPherson

Christian Millenarianism, by S. Hunt

By the way, E.W. Bullinger and John Nelson Darby were contemporaries.

Welcome, jkboehme.

I'm sorry to say, your recommendations, useful though they may be for other threads on

other topics, will NOT be particularly useful here.

The subject here is PLAGIARISM, most specifically, plagiarism from Bullinger for ADAN.

This is NOT a thread to discuss the accuracy of DOCTRINE-that would go in the DOCTRINAL

forum. If you want to debate the accuracy of dispensationalism, that would be the forum

to do so. (If you want to just declare it, there's no forum for that-all posts are subject

to discussion within the bounds of good taste-and often beyond that.) I'm not saying this

post made such a declaration, but that WAS the direction you were going. If you wish to

keep going there, please use that forum. (All your recommendations were for books

attacking dispensationalism.)

Furthermore, I'd recommend anyone studying up on dispensationalism OR Darby to skip any

books by MacPherson. MacPherson has a personal axe to gring on dispensationalism, and

considers that doctrine to have been responsible for his father's firing from his job and

his death. (No, I'm not exaggerating.) He's gone out of his way to use all tactics

available to him-including outright lies-to support his attacks on dispensationalism-

which he confines to attacks on Darby. I don't trust him as a reliable source on data.

Finally,

it is MUCH more relevant to this discussion-which you are welcome to continue to

participate in-to review more obvious examples of vpw's plagiarism:

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stolenrthst.htm

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm

are two good places to start.

Power for Abundant Living, Pages 119-120.

"For years I did nothing but read around the Word of God. I used to read 2 or 3

theological works weekly for month after month and year after year. I knew what

Professor so-and-so said, what Dr so-and-so and the Right Reverend so-and-so said,

but I could not quote you The Word. I had not read it. One day I finally became so

disgusted and tired of reading around The Word that I hauled over 3,000 volumes of

theological works to the city dump. I decided to quit reading around The Word.

Consequently, I have spent years studying The Word-its integrity, its meaning, its words.

Why do we study? Because God expects us as workmen to know what His Word says."

From The White Book's preface.

"The Word of God is truth. I prayed that I might put aside all I had heard and

thought out myself, and I started anew with the Bible as my handbook as well as my

textbook. I did not want to omit, deny, or change any passage for, the Word of God

being the will of God, the Scripture must fit like a hand in a glove."

You can read the entire preface if you want, but that was the only part directly

germane. The rest of it underscores this, as he claims that all the Christians he'd

encountered in schools, seminaries, etc all lacked The Truth as he later found it

once he eliminated all outside sources.

quote:

Originally posted by oldiesman:

And I still say, so what?

Since this question was raised, I'd like to address it.

I've given this a lot of thought over the years, and here's the conclusions I've

drawn.....

It's fairly easy to illustrate that there is something fundamentally wrong with plagiarism.

Suppose, for argument's sake, that you saw a book on E-bay. The title is "The Ability to

Live Abundantly", and the author goes by the pen-name WordWolf. In reading the excerpts,

you see that its opening prominently quotes John 10:10. It follows this with

"This verse literally changed my life. In my years in the Christian ministry, I've never

manifested an abundant life. It seemed unbelievers were manifesting a more abundant life than

Christians. Yet Jesus Christ said he came that we might have life and that we might have it

more it more abundantly. Why are Christians failing to manifest even an abundant life?"

The remainder of the book lays out keys for how to understand the Bible. There's a chapter on

how to receive anything from God, including an anecdote about "fire-engine-red" curtains.

Another chapter is called "The Battle of the Senses."

You would easily recognize that "my" book was little more than a retyping of the Orange Book.

If I were to take that book, slap a new title on it, change a few words around so that the

quotes are not exact, could I really call myself an author (especially if I fail to give

Wierwille credit for his work?) Could I, in good conscience, sell my book and take the

profits?

Victor Paul Wierwille was a serial plagiarist. He took the research of other men and passed it

off as his own. He took their words and put his name on them.

What should Wierwille have done? To be truthful, he should have cited Kenyon and Bullinger and

anyone else he used as a source in compiling his teachings, classes and books. Wierwille joked

that he had forgotten more about the subject of "holy spirit" than some of his critics would

ever know. Apparently, one of the things Wierwille forgot was to give credit where credit

is due.

Wierwille implies books like Recieving the Holy Spirit Today, Power For Abundant Living,

and Are the Dead Alive Now? were strictly the result of his personal research into the Bible.

It was not. He claimed to throw away all his other texts and use the Bible as his only

textbook and guide. This was dishonest. This was demonstrably false. It was a lie.

Plagiarism is LYING.

It is lying about the amount of work you put into your written project.

When the plagiarist claims to be a uniquely-qualified man of God, the lie becomes magnified.

Why? Because a minister is, by definition, in a position of TRUST in the church community.

No one expects a minister to be superhuman, but it is NOT unreasonable to expect honesty and

integrity. It is not unreasonable, when you read an article that says "by WordWolf" to

expect that WordWolf wrote it. It is not unreasonable, when you read a book that says

"by Victor Paul Wierwille" to expect that Victor Paul Wierwille wrote it.

Victor Paul Wierwille used other people's work to prop up his own "research ability,"

his own wisdom and understanding of God's Word. He used other people's work to exalt himself

as The Teacher, The Man of God, Our Father in The Word. He did so knowing that the words

"by Victor Paul Wierwille" were a lie.

Plagiarism reflects on the character of the plagiarist. The plagiarist is a liar, a thief, an

arrogant, lazy, self-important person who dismisses the hard work of other people and

disrespects the intelligence of his readers-by presuming the readers will never learn of

the infraction.

Plagiarism hurts people. It hurts people by stealing from them. It hurts people by

misrepresenting the accomplishments of the plagiarist. The Bible teaches that love does not

"puff itself up". But what is plagiarism if it's not pretending to do something you did

not do?

We don't accept it from high school students. We don't accept it from college students.

We don't accept it from news reporters, columnists, nor authors. We don't accept it from

historians and researchers. Those are "the world's" professions.

How can we accept a lower standard of integrity from men who profess to stand for God?

And, one last question:

Don't you get bugged when you see someone plagiarizing-attempting to pass off someone else's

work as their own? Doesn't that dishonesty bother you?

Wayne's World

Mike Myers

Austin Powers: Goldmember

I imagine everyone here, like myself, expected that "Are the Dead Alive Now?",

"written by victor paul wierwille", which he sometimes claimed was the most important

book "he" had "written", was plagiarized from another writer or writers.

He plagiarized everything ELSE, so it is only typical that he would have plagiarized

THAT book, small though it is.

So, I came across another of Bullinger's books the other day,

"The Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State?".

It addresses that account better than vpw does, and covers the other

references, including the Old Testament ones.

(I forget if vpw covered the witch at Endor. THIS book by Bullinger skips that,

but Bullinger wrote a different book JUST on that.)

I figured you'd all like to know that.

Carry on, everyone.

Sam Rockwell

Galaxy Quest

Tony Shaloub

Alien

John Hurt

From the Hip

(Been a while since I got to sneak that movie in here.

I was thinking of listing "Goblet of Fire" but I don't know

if he's going to actually be IN the movie.)

You'll need to confirm the veracity of those.

I know, for example, Beethoven was never totally deaf when he composed

ANY of his works- that's a myth.

Here's one link on what some people say about Lincoln's "failures":

http://www.snopes.com/glurge/lincoln.htm

====

None of that negates the value of hard work and persistence.

It's a well-known saying in the music business that it takes seven years

of hard work to become "an overnight success".

JK Rowling HAS mentioned that many publishers turned down her manuscript

for Harry Potter.

Here's one link on her website. The last 3 paragraphs are relevant.

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/biography.cfm

Here's a page that gives better examples:

http://lbarker.orcon.net.nz/rejection.html

quote:

Originally posted by skyrider:

For those of you who are new here.....

Region and limb coordinators have been EXITING twi in the past ten or so years. Here are some of them who NO LONGER could tolerate twi's lies and deception.

Region Coordinators (at one time or another) who've left twi's doors:

1) Jxhn Shrxyer (and wife)

2) Wxyne Clxpp

3) Pxul Mxsqueda

4) Alxn Licht

5) Tom Lxlly

6) Brad Thxrpe

7) Dean Sxilor

8) Larry Pxnarello

Limb coordinators.......probably about 10 - 14.

Branch coordinators.....lots of em.

This grossly under-represents the people who left in the 80s. :D-->

We had Region Coordinators (like D*b*fsk*) walk.

That was the mid-80s, with vpw's death, the pop paper, and

Schoenheit's Adultery paper being labelled possessed for saying adultery

is wrong. A number of high muck-a-mucks left then, and it was enough

of an event for Christianity Today to note the exits.

("Infighting trims branches at the Way International".)

=======

In '89 when lcm demanded his oath of allegiance,

80% of the people PRESENTLY involved

(not counting the previous exodus)

all walked.

That's 4 out of every 5 people.

That includes Limb leaders and so on.

In the case of NY state, more than 80% left,

so I suppose more than 20% stayed in some other places.

That also doesn't count 1990,

when a number of people who stayed thru 1989 and just

drifted off after that.

From 1989 on, the group's overall numbers have continued to drop,

as they experience "negative population growth."

That means every year, some people get fed up and leave,

and there are more of them than there are people who arrive and

want what they have to offer.

So, the group is dying a slow death.

My main regret is the slowness.

I hope the next Sleeper quote would have been

"Don't move-or the nose gets it"

or

"It's tobacco! It's one of the healthiest things you can put

in your body!"

:D-->

=====

Wild guess on the current one:

"Little Shop of Horrors"?

Correct.

That line about killing's almost a giveaway.

In other news, the kid whose only line is "Don't touch that dial",

if memory serves, is Dweezil Zappa, Frank Zappa's first kid and

the guy who's most famous song is

"My guitar wants to kill your momma."