Oakspear

In order for that to be true, we would all have to agree his charisma is what drew us to The Way and kept us involved. We've already seen evidence to the contrary in less than 1 page of responses.

True

The PFAL class itself did not present Wierwille as a charismatic figure, at least to me, for several reasons: I found his often stiff performance and often poor delivery of his anecedotes to be more indicative of a sincere bumbler than someone posssessed of a magnetic personality. Somebody characterized him as "avuncular", which fits how I would describe his stage appearances (I only was at 5 ROAs when he was alive, and I honestly wasn't paying all that much attention to main stage teachings)

Thanks...I've got two of Ehrman's books on the bookshelf that I'll probably be getting back into soon.

I didn't have much in-person contact with the guy: saw him up close at the Advanced Class in Rome City 1980; shook his hand in the parking lot ROA 1978 and was part of a small after meeting with WOWs & WOWvets in 1981 or '82, and was never attracted to him or TWI due to his personality or supposed charisma. I followed his "ministry" because I thought that he had answers and at the time what he was peddling made sense to me. The PFAL Session Five and Session Twelve emotion didn't do much for me - the "research", however boring, was what hooked me.

I would guess that to those who credit the traditional cast of characters as the authors of the various books of the bible it makes a big difference whether The Gospel and Epistles of John as well as Revelation were written by the Apostle John, or just some otyer dude named John, or whether the Epistle of James was penned by James, Jesus' bro, or by one of the countless men with that name in that time and place.

If they're saying that John wrote John, they don't mean somebody who happened to share the name, they mean THE John.

According to Ehrman in Lost Christianities tacking on a famous or well-respected name in order to give a gospel or letter some heft or impressive credentials was not unheard of - who cares if it was John the janitor? Everybody cares if it's John the Apostle.

If a gospel or epistle is attributed to somebody, whether in the body of the work or by tradition, I can't imagine that the intent was for us to believe anything other than it was the famous guy, not the anonymous guy.

I think that's what Ehrman's point is when he won't say that James was written by James...he means that it wasn't written by THE James, not A James

I haven't looked at the Johannine epistles lately, but I have no reason to think they were written by anyone other than someone named John either. Maybe or maybe not the same John who wrote Revelation.

Whatever. I don't know why Ehrman only lists eight when the same criteria he used to include Revelation can also be used to include James and possibly I, II and III John.

There's no reason to think any of those people named John also wrote the gospel of John.

I just skimmed I, II & III John, and the name "John" does not appear in any of them; I believe that they are attributed to the person who wrote the Gospel of John due to stylistic similarities. II & III John are claimed to be from "the elder"...I forgot to check Revelation

What always struck me as odd about the family/household distinction is that the "household" was not the closest members of the family (as taught by TWI), it was everyone who dwelt in the house, including the servants.

George

Yeah, me too.

They always spun it that you could be family, but estranged, which was true, but didn't really look at the implications of using the term "household". But then again, Wierwille and Martindale were great for making words mean what they wanted them to mean.

You mentioned in the article how people think that cults are a thing of the past and articulately disabuse us of that thinking! The internet is really no help, although one might think it would be. Look at all the nonsense that gets posted that people believe without doing their own research. Things that a few seconds of head scratching and rational thought, let alone a peak at snopes.com, would reveal as just plain wrong. People aren't any more likely to do the hard work of thinking for themselves now than when we were ensnared.

Thanks DWBH for the background and to WordWolf for providing the links

As much as we were fed the company line about TWI being the revival of the Book of Acts, and how it was a world-wide ministry, blah, blah, blah...

The Way as a functioning organization was just a flash in the pan

Even though in two years they'll likely be celebrating what they claim is their 75th Anniversary, how long did The Way really exist as anything other than a shell?

1941-1942 Wierwille was a church pastor who wasn't even sure that he believed the Bible

1942-1953 Wierwille was a church pastor in a small town dreaming of bigger things and running a small-time radio broadcast

1953-1957 Wierwille was STILL a small-time pastor, running a plagiarized class on the side

1957-1967 Wierwille was driving around the country, running his plagiarized class, but attracting only a couple of handfuls of regular followers

1967-1970 Wierwille finally finds someone who will listen to him AND who can attract others to the fold

1970-1985 Wierwille starts WOW program, Way Corps etc and takes advantage of the youthful enthusiasm of his new followers to build a national and international organization this is really the only time that TWI even came close to matching its big vision

1985-1990 Wierwille's dead - chaos reigns

1990- 2000 Martindale presides over steadily shrinking and increasingly irrelevant rump ministry

2000-2015 Rivenbark hunkers down with an even smaller and more irrelevent skeleton of the Way

I was never WC or ordained, and was just a mere humble peon of a believer. However, I was always told that someone who was ordained was ordained because God revealed to the powers that be that the ordainee had a gift ministry.

You know, I heard that too, but never from anyone at the top

Indeed... and it took major emotional trauma for me to realize that crap was messed up. Trauma in the home and in the workplace.

Fortunately for me I had some mentors at my company who helped me get past the Way model of leadership

The biggest way that my identity changed was the tendency to be arrogantly sure of my own opinion (even if "my" opinion was really a second-hand opinion gotten from someone else). When I left The Way I thought I left behind this "I know that I know that I know" crap, but it took me a while to shed that mindset. I also had absorbed some of the Way model of how to be a leader, i.e. yelling and humiliating people. As a middle manager, I was pretty ineffectual applying this method in the real world. This also took a while to change.

Time you'll never get back. But, hey, it was "free".

Good one

Time I will never get back

I still have my Way bible, all marked up with holy spirit usages, dechomai & lambano, notes from this and that. I'd be glad to sell it to an active Wayfer or spin-off follower! Still have my Companion Bible too!

"TW:LiL" gives an interesting quote on page 14 about some WOWs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The eight here this morning were given a Headquarters

assignment where they do necessary work as well as study, learn and

grow spiritually strong. Their program is designed to build

discipline, knowledge of God's Word and commitment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOWs assigned to headquarters was not common when I was around.

Anyway, on to the next quote.

Interestingly, after the WOW program was scrapped and replaced with Way Disciples, there were Way Disciples groups that were assigned to HQ

I posted this 10 years ago on that full time corps thread:

I distinctly remember Martindale saying regarding the full time decision that if it didn't work, and they had to go back to the Corps getting "secular" employment, the ministry will have failed.

Fast forward to the announcement that the Corps was going off full time employment with TWI: the spin was not that there was any failure involved, in fact, it was God's will! Now the "highly trained" and "spiritual" Way Corps would be able to move the Word even greater than before since they would be out in the job market; people would hear the Word who otherwise might not because The Corps would be working!

The biggest laugh was that Martindale was promoting that the Way Corps could easily move into middle management jobs due to their experiencve leading people. :confused:/>-->

Now I know that some of you Corps grads were pretty smart and started your own sucessful businesses, or were professionals in your field. (and you guys lost out when, after dropping your career or business, you had to start all over again a few years later because "revelation changed") but there were a lot of Corps grads out there who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag, and some of these fine specimens were angling for management jobs!

As someone who has been a manager for several companies in several different industries over the course of my life, I found it insulting that someone who lacked any skills other than mindlessly obeying orders and parroting the company line could even consider being a manager in any field

Oakspear......well, "the reason for corps [ushers] to suit up in the big top tent" was because

[drum roll.......] the word was being taught and wierwille was marketing a product.

He wasn't concerned about OUR comfort.....or the logic of an August sweltering tent. Wierwille

set the precedent of "being your best for God" and everyone fell in line.

Yeeeeeaaaaahhhh....that's the ticket!

I've lived in your home state for 35 years now (still haven't started rooting for the football team!) and have gotten used to people dressing "formally" by putting on clean blue jeans and a checked shirt!

Just to be clear.....

Most of the early roa had less structure.....and more time to just hang out.

Absolutely

I started going to ROAs in 1978 and I had fun. I enjoyed the fellowship, the hanging out, and didn't half mind the evening teaching.

I was not active between 1983 and 1990 and was surprised to find how structured everything had become

Here I was, having grown up on a farm, and was

ordered to stand in this glorified cornfield...in a hot, humid tent...in August...in a suit!!!

I wasn't the Corps, but I never understood the "need" for you guys to "suit up" in what was often sweltering heat, ame even more attractive by the frequent rains

For those who missed this *turning point*.......here is what happened.

At the end of twi's Placement Meetings in March 1995, martindale decreed that ALL active way corps

would be put on full-time staff in August [1995] and would need to meet with twi's Personnel Director

[br@d Th0rpe] at a scheduled time during Corps Week to determine need/salary. This decree put a

thousand things in motion and thousands of heads spinning. :biglaugh:/>/>/>/>

One of many idiot decisions not even close to thought-through. Not only were the financial implications ignored, but most of the Way Corps were used to actually working. Our local guy was a drywaller, now turned into a full-time desk jockey, organizing witnessing expeditions while the rest of us were still working

The whole backstory on the 1995 Rock of Ages was an out-of-control environment, teens up all hours and

hanging at the gazebo,

In other words, like every other ROA

and homo spirit infiltration [supposedly, :rolleyes:/>/>/>/> ]

Yikes!

and the last ROA was

turned into "a class setting" with basically martindale teaching every night. Stiff. Rigid. Boring.

"The Class on Living Victoriously"...no, it was "The Class on Living Sanctified"...or something...

What was worse than the "class" atmosphere at night was required class sessions in the morning as well, with little free time to socialize with friends from other states

BUT.....imo, the REAL reason that martindale was cancelling the rock of ages festival was

because NOW that way corps were on the payroll, ALL EXPENSES INCURRED [travel, lodging, food, car expense,

etc] would be on twi's doorstep. Now, when the corps traveled.....twi's petty cash accounts were running

and needed reimbursed. Same with corps family and KIDS....they've got to eat too. No longer was the

rock of ages going to be a cash cow for twi.

I think martindale was a little late in figuring all this out......and his "all full-time corps revelation"

started dying before it hardly had time to breathe.

Anyone who had been through a high school economics class would have been able to figure this out

I was at that ROA...living in a flooded tent with my wife and four kids as the whole area flooded. More revelation

Nebraska uses a point system. You start with 12 points. You lose points for traffic violations; the number of points vary depending on where they took place (e.g. 4 points for speeding in town, 3 points for speeding on the interstate 1-10mph above the limit). After 2 years your points are added back in.

I was just reading a five year-old post that touched on ex-wayfers claiming ordination even though they were no longer part of the group that ordained them, i.e. The Way

I have a vague memory of Martindale talking about how ordination was for life and that The Way didn't "re-ordain" someone who had been ordained in another denomination. I think he used Ross Tracy as an example.

I know that some denominations can and do "defrock" ministers who wander off the denomination's path, and that The Way for sure consigned "copped out" clergy to Grease Spot status.

But what were you guys who were ordained in The Way told it was all about?

It seemed like it shifted from time to time. A lot of the early Corps appeared to be ordained upon graduation; there were also clergy who were either running twigs or not running anything while still active within The Way, and there were occassionally non-clergy in positions of authority. Howard Allen seems to have had a weird take on ordination, turning down the offer because he "didn't want to do funerals". I have also heard that ordinations "opened the door" for things that only clergy could do: hospital visitations and weddings. (I myself have an online ordination that allows me to perform weddings, which I do regularly)

Do those of you who are out still consider yourself ordained? And what did it mean to you back then?

The whole line about "if God wasn't okay with sex outside of marriage, he'd have said 'best' instead of 'good'" is a perfect example of how Wierwille pulled biblical interpretation out of his rear end. Who says God "would have" said best instead of good? He did this kind of stuff all the time - it God had meant xyz he would have used this Greek word instead of that Greek word - from a guy who didn't really understand English grammar let alone Greek or Hebrew

If anything, it should indicate that deities do not exist, or at least don't care (but doesn't prove that they don't exist )

I have been in only one life-threatening situation since I left Christianity behind. I was involved in a serious car crash. I was hit on the driver's side of my car by another vehicle that blew through a red light. I remember looking to the left and seeing the car bearing down on me. I am quite sure that I didn't invoke the help of any deities even though I considered that I might not survive the impact.

A confirmation bias?

Best post all week!

Tzaia, does this only have to do with the priesthood?

If this is for all of Israel, then is this connected to the red thread - preservation of the nation in order bring forth the messiah? (just a question).

What difference should it make? Logically, wouldn't anything that this alleged god made be fit for being a priest of said god?