Goey

Could somebody please tell me why the address is given as being in Phoenix, AZ? What's that got to do with being in Ohio?

Does this statement also account for assets held at Gunnison and Indiana?

To the best of my understanding, Camp Gunnison Inc. is a completely separate NPC from The Way International Inc. So this financial statement would not account for the holdings and assets of Gunnison Inc.

The only thing Camp Gunnison Inc. and The Way Internalional Inc share in common is that Rosalie Rivenbark serves as president of both of these corporations.

Camp Gunnison Inc

Also consider that there is over 10 mllion dollars in shares and deposits in The Way Credit Union, which is probably booty from ABS.

The Way Credit Union

Cheers

TWI Financial Statement - 2007

The 2008 statement will be available soon. I will post it as soon as possible.

It may be interesting to compare.

Cheers

I thought the "tithe" of time in the old testament was supposed to be a day of rest.

Jesus said: " Which of you shall have an A$$ or an ox fallen into a pit, and ill not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?"

It seems pretty clear to me that a TWI leader's need for having their lawn mowed or having their a house cleaned on the sabbath ..... is the same thing as having YOUR A$$ fall in a pit.

So it stands to reason that mowing a TWI leader's lawn or cleaning a TWI leader's house on the sabbath is the same as pulling YOUR A$$ out of a pit.

And no one wants their A$$ in a pit on the sabbath ... do they ? Hmmmm ?

Innies ........Best get mowing and cleaning.

I disassociatie quite a bit lately. But prefer to call it an afternoon nap.

On a serious note .........

"Cause and effect have not been "proven." But I've dealt with over 2000 current and former cult members. When the same symptoms come up over and over, it's reasonable to hypothesize there's a connection."

How can you hypothesize such a connection unless the 2000 current and former cult members are compared to 2000 non cult members?

My guess is that if you compared the 2000 culties in counseling, with for example, 2000 movie actors in counseling, or even any 2000 persons that are in counseling of some kind ..... that the incident of debilitatiing dissassociation might be similar in all groups.

But ....... if you took all those from each group that experience dibilitatating disassociation and found a higher incident of cult participation in those folks than in the ones who did not experience debilitatiing disassociation , THEN ...... it might be reasonable to hypothesize a connection.

But maybe the connection could simply be that they are all just in counseling ......

But hey, what do I know ?

Sociopaths aren't called that anymore. Antisocial is the preferred term.

Preferred by whom? But hey, let's not quibble over terms that mean the same thing.

Actually I used sociopath instead of psycopath to be nice. Same thing though.

VPW amd LCM could be the posterboys for this malady.

The "Waybrain" label is generally applied to certain attitudes of Way and former way followers. In certain situations, the responses of someone sufferring from "waybrain" can be predicted with fairly good accuracy.

However, "waybrain" (if we can actually define it) would also apply to folks never associated with TWI. You certainly see these behaviours and attitudes outside of TWI and those it influenced.

I like to think of "Waybrain" as a combination of antisocial and narcissistic disorders bought on by acceptance and adherence to a hard set of standards, many times believed to be "immutable truth". These standards or truths could be from religion, science, or elsewhere.

A look at the definitions of sociopath and of narcissitic disorder may help shed some light.

I think "waybrain" is missapplied here some. Yet, I think I know several folks here that probably suffer from it in varying degrees.

Great, Tonto !

Ok, heres my humble contribution ........

Sang to the melody of "Clementine"

Verse 1

In an Cornfield. In Ohio

We're still standing on the Word

Live is great here. Fruit abounding

Don't believe the things you've heard

Chorus:

Serve with Gladness

Serve with Gladness

Serve with Gladness everyday

Holy Household live forever

In the land we call the Way

Verse 2

Doctor Wierwille. Was our hero

Man of God. He taught us well

Glassy-eyed. We blindly followed

Holy Lock Box. Never tell.

Chorus:

-----------------------------------------------

Ok now. Certainly y'all can add some more verses.

Poor Way Productions... they need some help.

Maybe we can write a song for them - something that won't make The Soup (formerly known as Talk Soup).

It can't be that hard right...

Ok, heres my humble contribution ........

Sang to the melody of "Clementine"

In an Cornfield. In Ohio

We're still standing on the Word

Live is great here. Fruit abounding

Don't believe the things you've heard

Chorus

Serve with Gladness

Serve with Gladness

Serve with Gladness everyday

Holy Household live forever

In the land we call the Way

-----------------------------------------------

Ok now. Certainly y'all can add some more verses.

Why can't the Lord and the ministry be served at the same time?

This (rhetorical) question presumes that a "ministry" could or should be "served" ..... and at the same level and at the same time as serving "the Lord".

Where in any scripture is it suggested that a ministry be served? In contrast, the scripture says " "No man can serve two masters." To put service to the "ministry" anywhere near the same level as service to the Lord is missing it completely.

It seems to me that putting service to the ministry above service to the Lord (or equating the two), was a huge part of what allowed the "ministry" to run roughshod over folks .... and huge part of what lead to the many abuses in TWI.

It is possible to serve the Lord Christ in twi, or by selling donuts at Dunkin Donuts if that is where someone with the heart and mindset of Col 3:23,24 happens to work.

Sure it is "possible" to serve Christ while being "in" TWI, but it not possible to serve the Lord simply by serving TWI and the will of its leaders -- (the ministry). Given TWI's track record, my guess is that the programs are likely designed to be self-serving to ministry and its bottom line ..... at the expense of those who have been led to think that they serve the Lord by serving the ministry.

What is "possible" and what is likely or prudent are many times quite different.

A sneak preview of forthcoming events, can't tell you how I got this info so don't ask.

Specially announced over the Cafe megaphone but not yet announced within the walls of Zion:

The theme for the next ministry year at TWI, to be announced on October 5, 2008, is (drum roll):

Serving the Lord with Gladness

Wow, how exciting.

Since the Lord is "absent" he can't really be served directly. In this day and age, to serve the Lord is really to serve "The Ministry."

So what this really means is to Serve the Ministry with Gladness.

Stop complaining about having nothing to offer new folks. Stop asking silly questions about money and old lawsuits and stuff.

Shut the hell up and be glad that Rosie (et al) are there taking care of the spiritual things for you.

Be glad that Rosie and gang are there to take your abundant sharing and use it for the "Lord's Work". (Feeding the poor and all the other wonderful things they do for folks.)

Shut the hell up, send more money, and be glad that you belong to the true household !

The "Law of Believing" as taught in PFAL is a non-Biblical teaching and can be quite destructive. The Bible does mention a "law of faith" in Romans 3: but it has nothing to do with the PFAL's name it and claim it nonsense.

Here it is in context :

Romans 3:20 - 28 (KJV)

3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

3:22

Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

3:25

Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

3:26

To declare,

, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

3:27

Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by

the law of faith.

3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

A natural reading of this section in Romans shows that the biblical "law of faith" has to do with redemption and justifcation through faith in Jesus Christ as opposed to doing works of the Law ( of Moses) The real law of believing (faith) has nothing to do with fire-engine red drapes and the best parking spots at the mall.

PFAL took a few scriptures out of their context then errantly inferred and tried to establish some kind of "imutable spiritual law" that "works for saint and sinner alike" . Christian or non-Christian , just claim it (if it's available) and believe, and presto chango... it's yours!.

Of course, you have to "know what to do with it after you receive it " (non scriptural) and "have your needs and wants parallel" (also "non scriptural) .... and then there's the pop in and out of fellowship crap ........ yada yada yada.

Aside from the saint and sinner contridiction, (a sinner/non-Christian wouldn't use the name of Jesus Christ), VPW put in the loopholes so his so-called "law of believing could remain a "law" without being questioned.

Got a cold? .... Where's your believing ? Had a car wreck? .... No faith. Didn't get what your prayed for? ..... Certainly something you did wrong ..... cause it couldn't possibly be that VPW's law of believing is wrong and not a "law" at all.

Why? -- Because the great Wierweille declared it ( by fiat) to be an IMUTABLE SPIRITUAL LAW ................ Baaaaaaahhhhh ! .

I can't answer it without getting into another brawl about the individuals involved in a situation being responsible for their own actions no matter who they might be, so I just thought it'd be better left alone. You can think what you will, but I'm not answering any more of your questions so don't bother asking.

Repeat after me.

There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. There's no such thing as coersive sexual abuse. .... Ad nauseum

The story that I'd heard about lcm and Gunnison was that it belonged to the board of trustees and not to twi itself, and that lcm being the head of the board somehow gaines ownership of the property.

Gunnison has always been a Not For Profit Corporation, legally separate from TWI.

As a NFP Corporation it belongs to no one. TWI Inc has never "owned" Gunnison Inc.

Gunnison Inc. has its own charter, by laws and Board of Directors. However the Board of

Directors at times have been the same on both Corporations.

It is legally impossible for a board member to gain ownnership of a Not for Profit Corporation

unless they purchase it at market value. For Gunnison that would be about 15 million or so.

Craig was removed from the board of Gunnison when he was removed from the board TWI .

He does not now , nor has he ever owned Gunison. Who ever suggested that was mistaken.

Goey Posted to Oldiesman

Then why are you not equally unsupportive anhd unsympathetic of VPW's adulteries and abuses considering the effect they had on people?

BOY oh boy that's a loaded question. You know what? I'm going to decline to answer because its Wednesday and I don't feel like getting into a brawl today.

From what I read about the incident these folks had no responsibility whatever. I am totally unsupportive and unsympathetic of VP's actions accusing way corps folks of the death of Gary Dunhoff.

Ok, so you disagree with Wierweille here and acknowledge that they "had no responsibility whatever". So that makes VPW what? ..... A false accuser. He falsely accused these folks of the death of Gary Duhoff and falsely accused John Nave of "murder." It seems you agree here.

But we can hardly say that VPW had "no responsibility whatever " in the case of Sandra Sullivan. Of course I do not subscribe to VPW's standard of responsibility and neither do you as you have made clear. However, if we use VPW's standard as the bar, he convicts himself of murder in the case of Sandra Sullivan.

One difference in these two tragedys is that in the case of Sandra Sulivan, the accused, VPW, was directly involved in a way that probably influenced the outcome.

I am totally unsupportive and unsympathetic of VP's actions accusing way corps folks of the death of Gary Dunhoff.

Then why are you not equally unsupportive anhd unsympathetic of VPW's adulteries and abuses considering the effect they had on people?

You make no sense Oldiesman. None at all.

The death of this woman was certainly tragic. It amazes me how anyone could deny any resposibility on the part of VPW.

From Karl Kahler's Book.

"Dunhoff died anyway. Wierwille called a meeting to announce his death. Then, said Desmond, Wierwille told everyone who had cheated on the colon cleanse to raise their hands. Then he told everyone who knew about the cheating to raise their hands. Everyone with a hand in the air, he said, was directly responsible for Gary Dunhoff's death."

The aboove refers to the death of Gary Dunhoff who died as a result of a car accident while he was out "cheating" on the colon cleanse by eating some cookies.

Wierwille held anyone who cheated on, or even knew about any cheating on the notorious colon cleanse

"directly responsible for Gary Duhoff's death".

So we have Wiwerwille, who cheated on his wife (adultry) while taking sexual advantage of a member of his flock, and as a result of of this, the woman commits suicide. Yet somehow, according to Oldiesman, Wiereille bears no responsibility.

Oldiesman, in light of the above, please explain how and why Wierweille can hold these folks "directly responsible" for the death of Gary Dunhoff, and yet somehow not himself be directly responsible for the death of Sandra Sullivan.

I await your reply.

Recently Translated from the Estranged Aramaic

1: Now, the beginning of PFAL was on this wise.

2: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was [became] without form and void [lost] and darkness

was upon the face of the earth.

3: And Gawd, seeing the broken cisterns of theology and the plight of the world that was

being destroyed for a lack of knowledge, had compassion upon man.

4: So Gawd went to and fro and searched all four corners of the earth for a man spiritual enough and humble

enough to learn the lost Word and to be Gawd's spokesman to the world.

5: But He could find no one but Victor, a defrocked ( for fraking his secretary) Ohio preacher.

6: And Victor, being the only man spiritual enough and humble enough to be taught the revealed Word like it had

not [never?] been known since the first century needed a sign or he was going to chuck the whole mess.

7: So Gawd made it snow on the holy gas pumps as a sign to Victor that He would teach him

the Word if Victor would agree to teach it to others [especially young, naive, sexually

active pot-smoking hippie kids].

8: And Victor, after throwing out all his books except for a few tattered remnants, wrote PFAL

as Gawd [and Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, et al] taught him

9: And Victor began teaching PFAL, [ while fraking his flock] and the Word became known

like had not [never?] been know since the first century.

10: And the light began to shine once again.

11: Thus was the beginning of PFAL.

Update:

The angio procedure went ok. They had to go in through an artery in my left arm. When I got home I took a nap and upon awakening I stretched out my arm and the danged entry wound opened up and started squirting blood out about 12 inches with each heart beat. I put pressue on it and got it stopped, but with only 1 free hand every time I let go to wrap it, sqiirt, squirt. After 5 minutes of this a neighbor showed up and with both of us, we got an ace bandage on it tight enough to get it all sealed up. Probably only lost a 1/2 cup of blood, but still .... it was messy and kinda scary.

Anyway the initial report was as I suspected, right leg blocked almost 100 percent and left about 70. Surgeon said surgery would definitely be necessary, but I was too doped up at the time to to get into the details.

Tomorrow I go in for a surgery consult and will get the skinny on when and how, but he already assured me that I am looking at major surgery about like the last time.

I'll know more tomorrow evening.

Thanks for your prayers.

Bill

While I give little doctrinal weight to the writings of the RC saints, I think that what Mark posted is signicifant

in that it shows that some people in the Western Church had at least a general/cursory understanding of some

of the things that VP claimed hadn't been known since the first century.

I also find Church history and tradition somewhat facinating for the simple reason that it can help us understand

how and why many Christian doctrines were developed - and how many have evolved -- from the time of the

apostles through both the RCC and Eastern Orthodox Church's into Proterstantism and now in to modern

Evangelic & Pentecostal Christianity -- and other current movements such as the now popular and growing

"prophetic movement and even stuff like "Jews For Jesus".

Hi,

My aorta is blocked again and I am getting no blood to my right leg and very little to the left.

Monday, I go in to the hospital to get an angiogram to determine the extent of the surgery

that will be required.

Your prayers will be appreciated.

Thanks

I have a friend that plays poker on the internet, but I thought he said he can win real money. Or maybe points that he can use to get stuff.

Me, I love to play poker, but I've always been too frugal to gamble with real money. (That's because my luck sucks and I usually loose. :) )

Rick

Rick,

Your friend probably is playing for real money.

Many of the poker sites have real money tables, from 1 cent to $200 blinds. Some tables have thousands of dollars on them.

However, most of the sites also have play money tables and play money tournaments. All you can win with these is more play money and bragging rights. A lot of folks meet up and play on the same table as kind of a social thing, since there is also a chat window where you can shoot the bull.

I NEVER ver play for real money. Don't have any anyway.

I play on Pokerstars.com.

I have found this to be the best and most reliable online poker site. Never a problem.

The account is completey free. Play is completely free.

When you start you get 2,000 chips as a stake, and you build from there.

To play, download the free client software from pokerstars.com .

I play as "Goeytex". See ya there.

I have been playing Poker ( Texas Hold'em) on the Internet for several years now. Getting pretty good at it.

I play with folks from all over the world. Only for "play" chips, but sometimes the competion is

very intense.

Any other Poker players out there ?

This is my first post and... well frankly, I'm curious.

I was born in 1985. My parents were very involved in the music ministry part of TWI. We had a 'twig' meeting in our house once a week every week. Around 1989 my parents left the way in the midst of all that was happening. They continued to meet with the 'branch' coordinator or whatever who also left around the same time for about another year and then left completely and haven't continued meeting with any Christians since. While I was only 5 years old when my parents almost completely severed their connections with TWI, I grew up with many of the way teachings and doctrines engrained in my head until my parents started to sort out some of what they believe to be true and what was false.

Now I'm 22 years old and I'm in a bit of a conundrum. It seems that the vast majority of what I grew up learning I'm discovering is false. I've been meeting with some Christians for the last 6 or so years and really growing. There are only a few things that seem to stay the same and I'm wondering how many are finding many of the things true or false as well. I have a list of topics below, a couple of which I have found true, most of which I think are false and I really want all your input. I think there's a lot in me that I don't know about that's been hurt by what happened in TWI and to my parents... amazing what can get to you in your formative years.

Anyways, here are the topics I'm curious about:

1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune?

2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit?

3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here)

4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other?

5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right?

6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it?

7. Prayer. What is prayer really?

8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower.

9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI?

10. Salvation. How?

11. End result. Heaven or something else?

12. Rapture. Every believer or some?

Thank you all who respond to this. I really am curious. I'm also open if anyone has any others they would like to mention that were big way matters.

-Jafin

Hi Jafin,

Welcome to Greasespot,

What a good post.

The questions you asked are some of the main ones that many of us have asked ourselves (and others)

after once being followers of the teachings of TWI.

No one can really answer these questions for you and I am not suggesting that anyone that has responded

is trying to do that. What I mean is, you will have to take the time and expend the effort to seek the answers

for yourself.

As you can see by the responses so far, many of us have found quite a bit that was taught in PFAL/TWI to be

doctrinally wrong (to one degree or another). But we don't all agree. If we did, it would be kind of scary IMO.

The process of sorting through all of the questions and getting some answers is not instantanious and can be

very challenging. It can be very uncomfortable to question a belief system that has been ingrained into us for a

good part of our lives. It can be even more uncomfortable to realize/admit that some, if not lots of it, was

wrong or even harmful ....and to change. ( like the man with the bicycle with crooked handle bars)

Probably all of the things you mentioned have been discused here "Doctrinal" in detail. I suggest you read these archived

discussions, not necessarily to get the answers, but more to get an idea of how folks went about getting the answers

for themselves.

For me, a natural reading of the Bible, (void of commentaries, margin notes , word studies and preconcieved ideas)

opened up a lot of things and helped answer a lot of questions. When I came upon a verse or section that one of TWI doctrines

hung on, not presuming TWI to be either right or wrong, I prayed for understanding and asked if that is what it really meant.

If it was something from PFAL, I looked to see if VPW actually used the "keys" that he taught. Many times I found that he did not

especially in regards to context. But most important, IMO, is to allow God/ holy spirit to guide you and to be an integtral

part of the learning / relearning process. The answers will come in time.

Glad you're here.