Goey

Goey you have just falsely accused me of calling witnesses liars. There are over 4,000 posts of mine, and maybe 1 of them, several years ago, referred to a poster as lying. So shame on you for the false accusation.

While I believe there is a distinct probability that some posters repeatedly engage in false accusations, exaggerations and innuendo, calling direct eye witnesses outright liars is an ignorant act that I do not engage in.

Shame on me? Got to laugh at you on that one Oldies. You are quibbling over terms and hiding behind what you think to be cleverly crafted language. But honstley dude, you are just not quite clever enough to pull it off.

"A distiinct probablilty that some posters repeadedly engage in false accusations" ?

Not outright liars, just probable ones?

Maybe I should dig up some of your more classic posts, compile them, and start a thread

callled the "BEST OF OLDIES" Why let Mike have all the glory?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

LMAO at Oldiesman

That statement doesn't make sense. To the best of my knowledge Way believers don't go around accusing born again believers of being children of the devil.

It makes perfect sense and you are good an example of it to some extent. While you may have not used the term "children of the devil" you have called the witnesses liars and such. Why quibble over terms? Jesus called those Pharisees "children of the devil" not because they were possessed or literally "born again of Satan" ( an impossibility) but rather because they were liars. Satan is the father of lies so thus Jesus used the figure "children of the devil."

BTW, these are not Way believers, but former Way believers who are big fans of VPW and his teachings. Folks somewhat like yourself.

For you, The "best of my knowledge" leaves a lot to be desired. Your M.O. remains intact. You didn't see it so it didn't happen.

Shhhhh...you'll give away the dramatic ending.

You mean where by mastering PFAL as the Word of God, and doing all 9 all the time that you will then morph into your spiritual body and receive eternal life?

It gets better.

Wait till you hear the one where Jesus returns, appearing in the clouds and holding a PFAL Book in his right hand.

Here's the 1979 AC transcript, segment 26:

"Devil spirits, at times - not at times, but - devil spirits, I've

seen 'em put out of operation, for instance, with a couple of

"aspirins". Ah, I've seen 'em put out of operation with eh, giving an

anesthetic of some kind, or a shot in their arm - whatever doctors give

at that time - just devil spirits. Because the devil spirit has to have

the freedom of operating your "telephone line", mentally, see. If I'm

gonna call ya on the phone, I guess we have to have a line of

communication. Now if somebody snips the line, I won't be able to talk

to you any further. Devil spirits are like that. You know, give a man

a shot at a certain time and the devils spirits can't operate, and . . ."

(VP Wierweille)

Fer crying out loud .......

If a devil spirit is so smart that he can manipulate or alter the complex chemicals in the brain, then counteracting relatively simple compounds such as an aspirin, anethestics, etc should be a walk in the park for any half-witted demon.

This kind of stuff most likely came from VPW's devil spirit paranoia/mania. He attempted to explain all things "bad"" in terms of direct attacks by demons. Spiritual warfare you know.

No wonder people were labeled posessed so much in TWI.

Posted By By Mike.

Dr taught in the AC that it's possible for a tablet of aspirin to drive out a devil spirit.

How many people remember it? Why hasn't anyone mentioned this? The word "aspirin" was even mentioned in another context, but did anyone key off it what Dr had taught? No, because it doesn't fit into the general trend of thought here, and it can even contradict it.

If I had remebered it I would have brought it up, because its downright stupid. If an aspirin can drive out a devil spirit then so can a soapy enema or a good shot of tobasco sauce. Maybe garlic wreaths do repel vampires.

I am glad you mentioned it Mike. It shows how VPW grapsed at straws to make his theological system fit like a hand in a glove.

Logic:

Believer 1: I have a headache

Beleiver 2: Doctor says that disease is oppression from Satan and a headache is disease (dis- ease)

Do you want me to pray for your deliverance & healing?

Believer 1: No, I'll just take an aspirin.

30 minutes later .....

Believer 1: My headache is gone.

Believer 2: Wow, Aspirin really can drive out devil spirits just like Doctor taught !

Believer 1: Huh?

Wierwillian logic at its best.

The notion that cancer is devil spirits is absurd. If it were devil spirits then drugs, chemo, radation would have no more effect on it than a warm soapy enema. The only possible "cure" would casting out the demons. (Maybe an enema with warm holy water might work?)

VPW's absurd notion stems from poor logical deduction. ie:

All life is spirt.

Cancer has life.

Cancer is therefore spirit

Sickness is from the devil

Cancer is sickness

Cancer is from the devil

Conculsion:

If cancer then is spirit and from the devil it

must therefore be "devil / spirit" (ie Possession )

Can anyone besides me see the logical fallacies involved ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

This is how many TWI doctrines and "spiritual laws" came into being ... from VPW's flawed application of basic logic upon scripture taken out of its context. It looks good at first glance but when put the test, it fails miserably.

For me it boils down to this.

If VPW did not abuse /rape women, then those who have claimed he did have born false witness against him. They are all liars.

If VPW did abuse/rape, women as has been claimed, then he could not possibly have been the MOG that many of us believed him to be and his ministry was void of any blessing from God.

To me the evidence is overwhelming that VPW was not the MOG we believed him to be.

The testimonly of the women who claimed they were abused by VPW is just a fraction of that evidence. When other evidence is brought to bear, a clear pattern of dishonesty and sociopathic behavior emerges. When a scociopath is in a position of nearly unlimited power, abuse will almost always happen. This lends even more credibility to the testimony of those who have spoken out has having been abused by VPW. In other words the charges line up with what is likely when a sociopath is in a position of power and trust.

WTH you are a hoot. I suspect that you were abducted by aliens and deeply probed repeatedly. Maybe if you shed a few tears it would help you to come to grips with it. Aaaah .... but maybe that pain is all behind you.

Honestly, I never put VP up on the petestal that many folks did. This is probably because I rejected authority from the time I was a kid. Sure I admired him and all that, even defended his teachings in public. I even imagined him to be an apostle. But I never quite got the doting and glassy-eyed adoration. This annoyed me at times. I knew I could never go Corps. I was in TWI to learn the scriptures and kiss the girls, not to dote over leaders.

With all the hoopla that went on when he came to town or when he entered a room, you'd think Jesus Christ had just come back for a visit. But I doubt that JC would have exepcted the chairs to be lined up geometrically with a string (we didn't have lasers in the 70's), or the marks in the carpet from the brush in the vacuum cleaner to be perfecty parallel to each other.

When I would read the scriptures concerning Paul and other leaders , I didn't see where they were treated like royalty or that they expected to be. I didn't see where Paul had doting servants attending to his every whim. I though leaders were supposed to serve. It bugged me about VPW, but I let it go. I was once told that VP as the MOGFOT "served us the word" and therefore he needed folks to attend to his physical needs so he could serve more of the word.

I was a WOW in Indiana in 77. Our family cordinator once told me that if VP told her to jump off a bridge and kill herself that she would do it. Loyalty misdirected I thought at the time. I surely would not have. No koolaid for Goey. That comment got my attention though. I wondered how many others had that same kind of thinking. It kinda scared me. But I stuck around for a couple of more years till the budding legalism got too much for me.

My Dear GOEY et al,

Your post has bothered me as I feel after all these years to have such a person as yourself ask these questions somehow makes me feel dirty, victimized again. Perhaps, because I have always liked you. ..............

Think what you want, I still like you. And although it stings a bit, I am too delivered now to let this cripple me.

Dot, I think you misunderstood my intent and purpose. Most of the questions were rhetorical. A few were not not.

I have been recently accused by my remaing family of "walking in darkness", "thinking evil", and being "separated from God" - partly and mosty becasue of my stand against the actions of VPW. Actions that I stronly believe did happen.

My family's stance is that all of the VPW accusers are liars with an axe to grind. All of them. They hold VPW up as a true MOG with a few human failures common to all men. And therefore with VPW being a true MOG, all of the accusation are from Satan to discredit a man who spoke for God. Logically, this would be an expected if not required response from anyone who held VPW in very high esteem, and with that hard bias, looked to the scriptures as (VPW taught them) for answers. From that point of view and bias, as true MOG, VPW could not possibly have done the things he has been accused up. So logically, they can only conclude that all the accusers must be liars and children of the devil.

For me, since I did not experience VPW's abuse personally, I must decide based upon the preponderance of the evidence and the testimony of eye-witnessess. I did personally experience abuse from those taught both directly and indirectly by VPW. aka Way Corps. I did see ordained & married Way Corps men actively seeking sex with women other than their wives. I was told in the mid 70's by a Way Corps lady, that there were sex orgies and wife swapping going on at HQ and that if you were spiritual enough to handle it it was ok.

I have had a person who was almost raised by VPW tell me that when his parents died VPW took him on a special flight in the jet to tell him that he should transfer the deed to family farm to TWI. I have had dear friends who were once glassy-eyed admirers of VPW prior to entering the Corps, later tell me of the meanness and callousness of both VPW and Mrs Wierweille after to getting to know them both very closely. I have no reason to doubt the testimony of these witnesses. I have read the testimony of many here that I do not know personally. I think most is reliable based upon the preponderance of the evidence.

However, I do accept the possibility that a few folks may indeed have an axe to grind. These would most likely be people who were in a position of power (possibly abusers themsleves) and lost that power when they fell out of favor with VPW/TWI.

As a Christian (not a very good one) I know that bearing false witness is a grevious transgression. I think that accusing someone of bearing false witness when they are not, is probably just a bad, if not worse.

So, in the extremely remote chance that I am wrong concerning VPWs actions I posted my thoughts, hoping for some enlightened dialog to follow.

Hope that makes sense.

Second, my BS COUNTER goes off the scale when reading that these unrelenting condemnations are supposedly motivated by God, Jesus, holy spirit, or liking them to Jesus condemning the Pharisees. The Pharisees were children of the devil who ultimately murdered our Lord Jesus. And some of you have the gall to compare Wierwille to them. Shame on some of you.

I must have missed most of the posts where there were unrelenting condemnations ( againt VPW),. I do however see where the sin is condemned. In my time here I doubt that I have read more than a handful of posts that actually "condemn" VPW. By condemn, I mean in the biblical sense of pronuncing both guilt and sentence. Few here have ever suggested tht VPW will burn in hell or that he was worthy of death. That kind of judgment is up to God and anyone going that far is crossing the line as far as I am concerned.

Oldies, what you mean by "condemn". There is quite a different between exposing harmful sin and condemnation.

I don't think I have ever read where someone claimed to be motivated by God or the holy spirit in the condemnation of VPW. I think you are hearing something that is not being said. I disagree with the other poster that you BS counter is broken. I suspect instead that it is really a BS generator and that it is working fine.

I think the Pharisee comparison is fair in regards to VPW or to anyone else who holds themselves up as a member of the spiritual elite while exempting themselves of the burdens they place on others. It basically refers to hipocracy and self- righteousness. Not all pharisees were murders so your indignation is basically unwarranted in the context of comparing VPW to a pharisee.

Apples and oranges. Jesus and Paul were accountable for what they said, i.e., you knew it was them making the statements. You can look in their eyes, see them and even talk back. Many times, it was up close and personal. There was a genuine, human, in your face give and take.

There's something anticeptic and cruel about finger pointing others' sins anonymously behind a computer. Yes I do characterize that as evil and hateful sometimes. Sometimes I feel like the biggest finger pointers should have a website dedicated to THEIR sins and see how they cope.

Apples and organges ? I don't think so

I have never looked in either Paul's or Jesus' eyes to know if they were telling the truth. The information comes from the pages of an ancient book that many of us hold to be a reliable witness. So we believe.

Forget VPW for now. Is it more more cruel to expose the damaging behavior of a religious leader, - or to allow it to continue because that leader may have helped me at one point -- to sweep it under a rug, deny it, justify it while allowing the harm to continue against others? The Catholic church may be a good example of this in regards to a few priests.

Now in regards to VPW -- Does maintaing his legacy as a good bible teacher preclude the telling of the whole story, warts and all? Who is harmed by telling the whole story? Who may be harmed by not telling it? Who can benefit either way?

Question: Why didn't more people come forward when VPW was alive? A serious question that requires serious and honest answers. Were that many people afraid to speak out, to confront? Did VPW have that much power over people or did we simply allow him that power... to the point that many of us turned a blind eye and didn't care who was harmed as long it wasn't us?

I know of quite a few people that stayed with TWI/VPW/LCM and saw the bad stuff going on, maybe even participated in it, but only spoke out after the bad things happend to them. Is this human nature or something more?

As for me, I wouldn't like a Website dedicated to my sins. But then again, I was not a MOG with a following of tens of thousands of trusting people looking up to me as spiritual giant. And I don't have a trail of disillusioned or guilt ridden folks in the path of my alleged "sins". And I don't have a remnant of dedicated followers 20+ years after my death that still believe that I hung the spirtual moon.

I don't think that this Website or any other is DEDICATED to VPW "sins". It is about making sense of our TWI experience. It is therefore necessary, as a part of that process of making sense, to adresss and discuss the accusations against VPW.

Have a nice weekend.

Isn't the Bible full of examples detailing the acts of wicked and deceived people, to help us learn, to help others not make the same mistakes? How is what we are doing here any different?

My very sentiments. If it is speaking evil to tell the truth about VPW/TWI, then Paul was a big evil speaker when he spoke against the legalists and Jesus was an evil speaker when he exposed the Pharisees for the phoney hipocrites that they were.

The "evil speaking" counter accusation of the VPW defenders is a misuse of scripture IMO. Any so-called minister of God who unrepentantly abuses those he claims to lead and nurture needs to be exposed for obvious reasons. Side note: The fact that a person is in a position of authority in a religious organization does not necessarily mean that God put him/her there or that they are true ministers at all.

It is interesting that those who accuse me of walking in darkness because I have "spoken evil" of VPW have no problem "speaking evil" of people like John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyers, Bennie Hinn and others, saying they are phoney money mongers. While it could be true, what is the difference?

Does "thinketh no evil" mean that when a man or woman's actions are blatently contrary to God's Word, (adultry, theft, unkindness, greed, pride, etc) that we should simply ignore these things and cast them out of our minds? Especially if it is in regards to our leaders or those who may have taught us "the Word"?

It is interesting that many of the people that use this "think no evil" doctrine are those who would set themsleves up as spiritual leaders themsleves. Go figure ...

Garth,

That is hardly in the "same vein". But you made your point.

Many of us having never seen or experienced the deeds of VPW accept that they happen based upon the preponderance of evidence - upon the testimony others.

Is this good enough? Are these witnesses credible?

Many people "came to God" (whatever that means) through TWI and the teachings of VPW.

From a purely Christian prospective how could it be possible for VPW to have done such evil things and still bring people to God?

Is is possible that those who deny that VPW did such things have their heads burried in the sand and therefore refuse to even weigh the evidence against him? That they hold VPW in such high esteem for his teaching of "the word" that they refuse to look at the other stuff. Many of these accuse the others of being ministers of darkness and liars with an axe to grind. I was recently accused of this.

Certainly there are enough witnesses to support the charges against VPW. However, there were false witnesses against Jesus. (Someones else's analogy, not mine. I am not putting VPW in the same class as Jesus Chrtist). Are witnesses alone therefore good enough?

The Bible shows by example and by warning that there will be false witnesses against men and women of God. So wouldn't it be a natural and expected response for those who believe VPW to have been a true MOG to also believe the witnesses to liars? Can we fault them?

Let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are true. What is the benefit of continuing to bring them up 20 years after his death? Does this truly help anyone? Is this "speaking evil" ?

Does the Bible suggest that it is "speaking evil" to reveal and oppose the "sins" of a respected leader of religion? Should we shut up and let it ride so as not to speak evil? Or is this a convenient interpretation of scipture to allow Christian leaders to keep their status and power regardless of their behavior?

Now let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are way overblown. Yeah maybe he had a few affairs but the women were willing. Yeah, he smoked his Kools and maybe drank his liquor to excess. And maybe he was a bit mean at times, but arent we all? But look at all the folks that got saved and were delivered as a result of VPW's ministry.

In this scenario by accepting what the witnesses have said as true and repeating it to others would we be ministers of darkness and therefore separated from God? Do we become false witnesses ourselves which is an abomination to God and a deady sin ?

Are we willing to accept the consequences if we are wrong about VPW?

Is it possible that most of us here are deceived? That VPW never really abused anyone?

Is it possible that all of those that have claimed that VPW abused them sexually are liars with an axe to grind?

Is is possible that the drugged rape alegations are lies from the pit of hell?

Is is possible that those who have alleged his alcoholism, meanness, vindictiveness, plaigerism, money mongering, womanizing, etc are also liars with an axe to grind?

Is it possibe that his alleged plaigerisms where just honest mistakes?

Is it possible that the snowstorm really did happen and that God really did speak to VPW and that God really did did teach VPW the word of God like it had not been known since the First Century?

Is it possible that those of us who have revealed or even repeated to others the "sins" of VPW and others "ministers" in TWI - that we are Ministers of Darkness fighting against God?

Is is possible that Word that VPW taught more than covers for any sins that he may have committed and that his "sins" if any were just those sins common to all humans?

Is it possible that even if VPW did commit the things that he as been accused of that God could and would allow him to become or remain a minister ( eg. apostle, teacher, pastor ) even though he never repented of those sins?

Is it possible?

What a great idea.

Ahhh yes .....

There also needs to be an official Refrigerator Inspection Team. -- A team of highly skilled and highly trained people to check for dust on top of refrigerators in the homes of all Way Followers. Cause you know that if there is dust on top of the refrigerator that the lady of the house has a personal hygiene problem in the nether regions. This odiferous condition (though very hard to discern ( without refrigerator inspection ) invites devil spirits into the home leaving the entire family spiritually bankrupt.

This is an immutable spiritual law most of us probably forgot.

Do you throw the baby out with the bathwater?

This questions presumes there is or was an actual baby. Was there ?

You must drain off the dirty bath water first, then look for a baby. I only found a few disconnected members.

While VPW/TWI certainly did not get everything wrong, what they did get wrong was significant enough to put some holes in the figurative cistern. Even a small hole in the bottom of a cistern will eventually drain it.

It may be a case of a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Bibical Accuracy?

Hmm .......

In regards to TWI and other some other groups, I'm thinking that biblical accuracy is a fallacy.

Biblical "accuracy" in TWI was derrived only by applying VPW's keys to the scriptures.

You could only get accuracy and therefore the true word of God, when you followed VPW's formulas.

So logically, to get the true and "accurate" Word, the formulas themselves would have to be infallible and then they would have to be inerrantly applied. (But it seems that VPW or the current MOG/ WOG could actually do that.)

Looking deeper, VPW's formulas depend upon many presumptions. Some were simply declared by fiat - like first usage .

It was presumed that Bullingers' work on figures was basically inerrant. Is it? Who decides if something is literal or figurative? Heres what was done many times. If the scripture didn't "fit" with a preconceived idea, it was declared either figurative or literal to force it to fit. Voila ! Accuracy!

It was presumed that the canon of scruipture was infallible, that all the books in the modern (Protestant) Bible are indeed God breathed. This presumes that men at the Council of Carthage some 4 centuries after Jesus - made a perfect decision as to which books/letters got the nod and and which ones got the axe. This is seldom questioned or looked at objectively - just mosty blindly accepted.

TWI's and some other groups versions of accuracy also depend upon the idea that God dictated each and every book or letter in the Bible word for word, or even iota for iota. Yet there little to no evidence that any NT writings came in that manner. Did general church correspondence such as letters from Paul or Peter to specific churches rightly get declared the inerrant God breathed Word of God some 500 years later?

There's a lot more to consider but for the sake of brevity ....

If the presumptions are not correct then formulas are not perfect and whole idea of "accuracy" is built upon shifting sand. Mathematical exactness? Hardly. Love is not mathematical .

IMO you need heart more than "accuracy" anyway.

Greetings to you in the name of Jesus Christ my lord.

Greetings you also.

I have recently taken the Way International's new foundational class entitled, "The way of abundance and power". If it were available our father in the word, Dr Victor Paul Wierwille would have turned over in his grave.

While a some folks may still refer to VPW as thier "father in the word" this glorification of VPW is certainly not a notion shared by most folks here. I would suggest that careful study along with objective and critical thinking will show that VPW is no more our "father in the word" than J.E. Stiles or B.G. Leonard or any other of the folks that VPW got his material from.

I was born again of God's spirit October, 10th 1979,spoke in tongues 3 months later, took Power for Abundant living in 1983, and was in the way corps, but failed to graduate. Then left the Way, but failed to reinstate my fellowship with God.

Recently, as I was watching a minister on TV, it was clear that God was calling me back home, then in February I contacted the Way thinking that it was home to Gods people, I was wrong. Although there may be some there who truly love God and His word but are still stifled from speaking up when the spirit of God in them yells at them to do the right thing!

My web search turned up the grease spot, and I thought I'd add a bit.

For those of us operating the 9 manifestations of the spirit it is clear as a bell how headquarters has turned from the living God to idols and opened the door for devil spirits to enter in and take control.

IMO, the door was opened before you ever took PFAL, when VPW was still at the helm when hundreds if not thousands of glassy-eyed followers put the good Doc up on a spirital pedestal that he did not deserve. It doesn't take "manefsatations" to figure out that TWI is and was a corrupt and spiritually bankrupt organization. It just takes bit of common sense and the willingness to take the good doc of his pedestal and hear the testimony of countless folks who actually knew the man.

During the class which I graduated I almost got up and walked out when David Chavisty began to teach at the 8th session, but I decided to give the people there the benefit of the doubt and sit through the 8th-12th sessions by basically ignoring the teaching and reading my Bible.

I prayed to God to continue to protect me from the doctrines of devils and open my eyes to see the picture being presented, and He did.

During my 3 years in the way corps, I was out of fellowship with God, and none of my leaders had the ability to get me back there!

Reverend M$rt$dale got busted screwing other women a number of years ago, and the media got wind of the last one when he was still president and threatened to expose the Way as a fake. The Way then "paid off" the people suing them for defamation of character, in order to keep the sin of Cr$g quiet. This is bribery in the basic biblical sense and opens the door for the host of heaven to enter in to rack and ruin Gods precious people.

The whole notion of the "state" of a person being either "in fellowship" or "out of fellowship" is a dubious doctrine conceived by, and pretty much unique to TWI. IMO it was a contrived tool used by TWI to explain away why bad things happen to good folks and to explain away the mass failures with healings and such. Oh, he must have been "out of fellowship !". A certain way to get "out of fellowship" back in the early days was to challenge or disagree with VPW. (That could make you possessed as well doncha know.)

My fellowship coordinator has definite spiritual problems and wants to control my life free time and try to distract me with service to the ministry instead of the full sharing mentioned in acts and Ephesians, and I don't want to continue with these spiritual whores.

Also, ironically, Dr. Wierwilles book, "Power for Abundant Living " is no longer available at the WAY and they left out 4 crucified in the class; amongst many other things. They breezed through the high points of Dr.s class like they weren't important anymore, that their new research is the REAL truth!

IMO, VPW's "four crucified", taken from Bullinger is seriously flawed. It gets allos and heteros wrong, which can be seen with a basic independant and objective study of the Greek. Even if it was right, whether or not there were 2 or 4 crucified, is certainly not a critical Christian doctrine and affects our faith and practice about as much as whether or not Adam had a navel. I will grant that VPW pitched it well - he was very convincing to the unlearned.

They cut the time from the 68 class of 36 hours down to 24 hours using scripture of course for the change, the good old brevity of time reason, lol. And the reason or as I put it "the excuse to slap God and his son Jesus Christ in the face", is that they have "new research"!!!! You tell me, what is wrong with Dr. Wierwilles class of 1967-68? Yup you tell me, not just whine about how Dr. got his information.

If someone told you, would you actually listen objectively? Regardless of the source of VPW's information, both the PFAL class and the PFAL books are loaded with errors. I think there is a thread here somewhere that documents many of these errors. You should check it out.

A term, which is used very very frequently in the new class, is "tremendous"

Here's what my 1936 thesaurus defines "tremendous" as-fearful, dreadful, terrible, See fear.(very very interesting)

Fear-timidity, mistrust, suspicion, apprehesion, dread, terror, trepidation, bullying, terrorism...you get the point.

My 1996 Webster's thesaurus on tremendous is quite different; hence the way Satan has changed language to further promote his control over Gods people.

96 thesaurus on tremendous-Extremely large, huge, large, or vast slang wonderful.

Wonderful-extraordinary, marvelous, astonishing, amazing, remarkable, astounding.

You tell me, why should it be so extraordinary the God as our Father would want to communicate with us and bless us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ? Or that we can heal people like the lame man in Acts 3? If we think that these are things that only the men of God of old did and it is not available because it is so "tremendous", then we are indeed tying Gods hands and the work of his son Jesus Christ was for naught.

I think this is a bit of a leap in logic on your part. Words change meanings over time. It is a normal process of language and probably not relevant or attributable to Satan. TWI has always had cliches, overused ( and mostly meaningless) sayings and terms , usually stuff that VPW or some other "great leader" said that was mimicked or parroted by thier psycophants. I still get a slight urge to smack someone if they say "Bless You". In any case, the overuse of the word "tremendous" is just an example of the progression of the "Wayspeak" that began in the 60's.

BUT, this is not the case my brothers and sisters, I encourage you to speak in tongue much much more, for Paul stated in I Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak in tongues more than ye all.

Empirically, I do not see where a Christian that speaks in tongues has any spiritual advantage over one that doesn't. Some of the the more baser azzes I ever met were in TWI and they "spoke in tounges much".

And as you all know it was he who received the revelation of the great mystery, hmmmm might there be a key here?????

God magnified His word above all His name, not the way's collaterals!

Read the book! Read the book! Read the book!

Agreed. But, let me add this. Read the Book (Bible) to hear what it says, and not for the purpose of confirming the teaching and doctrines of our favorite Bible teacher.

Do you remember the home study lessons from the video class of 1967-68?

The first 2 home study sessions were reading and rereading Ephesians, and Ephesians 6:10-24 session3. Session 4 was Romans chapter 12. 5-9 on the power for abundant living book. 10-13 on receiving the holy spirit today.

Like I stated above,the book "POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING" IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE AT THE WAY!!!!! WHY?????

Now really think about this question, dont just put that same old wall up, but really think, think why they got rid of the book which teaches a person the basic truths of how to unlock the WOG? Like the chuch lady from snl, "could it be Satan"?

Or maybe it could be God? While PFAL has some good stuff in it, there are some serious and fatal flaws in it -- some so serious that as a doctrinal system it fails miserably - a cistern that cannot hold water. It only takes a small hole to drain a cistern. It is a case where a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Oh, and they went through all of the publications and "updated them", how they have done this I haven't dug into yet, it should be an interesting venture.

Oh, lets not leave out the ego the all wonder ful ego promoted by the class, I actually saw a 12 year old boy thrive on pride and admiration at the 12th session, and they tried to gimme soome acknowledgement, but I refuse to accomidate their foolish desires. God who looks at the heart will reward those who are meek to Him and His word.

The God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ honors believing, and I believe.

Make no mistake about it! I am what I am, I have what I have and I will be what I will be NOT by what I have done or will do, but by what Jesus did for me by his torture and death, by the ultimate price that he paid.

He loved life and really didn't want to go through what he did.

But God raised him from the dead!

We have been given this awesome time of the ages to live in, the age of grace, but the New Testament in printed form before us, and because of Dr. wierwille, the understanding of the powerful word of God.

IMO, because of their uquestioned adherence to the basic teachings of VPW, Martindale and TWI , many folks are missing the point of Christiany in general. More concerned with "power" (manifestations, et al) than with love and kindness. More concerned with what God can do for them than what they can do for others. Folks afraid to commune or fellowship with the "absent" Jesus, substituting instead an unduly gorified man or a "ministry" as the effective head of the church. Folks not unlike the priest and the Levite, who walked past the man beaten by robbers offering him no physical help. Psuedo-intellectuals that choose to glorifiy the ink and paper and the folks that claim to know the keys to understanding it, rather than putting into practice the ideas and concepts it holds.

Continue to read the book. Continue to read the book. Continue to read the book. Continue to read the book.

And speak in tongues!And speak in tongues!And speak in tongues!And speak in tongues!And speak in tongues!

What about 1 Cor 13? What about love? Doesn't 1 Cor 13 teach that we should seek love first?

I still read my Bible

Lots of good stuff here.

Wasn't it taught in TWI that we renewed our minds to "The Word", meaning the written Word?. Thus the retemories and other such things, the idea being that if you stuff your mind with scripture ( as interpreted by VPW/LCM et al) you become a new creation.

Wasn't it also taught that the written word basically replaced the "absent" Christ?

Now if we are to bring "every thought into capitivity to the obedience of Christ then out only choice was to be obedient to the "written Word" interpreted by TWI.

This pretty much precuded any kind of personal relationship with Christ, as he was absent.

Also Doc Vic taught that the OT was "for our learning" as opposed to for doctrine. Then he puts the Gospels (which include the words spoken by Jesus) into the Old Testament and in a different "administration" so that they basically don't apply to us. How may times in TWI did you ever hear "Jesus said ....." ? Not many I bet. Heard a lot of "Paul said ..." and "Doctor said ..." but not too much of "Jesus said ..." And it is to Christ that we are to bring our thoughts into obedience?

Scripture is good as far as it goes but is no replacement or substitute for our living Lord and Saviour - Jesus Christ.

I have come to believe that the "renewed mind" has little if anything to do with "scripture" (memorizing, quoting, disecting, etc) and a whole more lot to do with a personal relationship with Christ.

Consider that the very early Christians to whom Paul spoke of the renewed mind, did not have Bibles with the Gospels and all the letters of Paul and Peter to memorize. So that couldn't have been what Paul was referring to in regards to the "renewed mind."

Garth,

I hereby dub you King of the Strawman.

Hey folks,

Remember when Doc Vic taught us that, according to Mendel's Law (or whatever law that he taught that its "everything according to its own kind")? Remember the part in the class where he said according to this, that you can't get a catty-dog or a doggy-cat" because you just cannot mix the 2 genuses?

Here's a story that will make you do a double take. Everything according to its own kind being inviolate, huh?

Catty-dog?

Is this wild, or not? :blink:

Talk about something that yanks Yet Another Plank out of the Creationist platform according to TWI.

Garth, I think you jumped the gun a bit in your zeal to discredit a VPW teaching. I think VPW got this one basically right.

My guess is that the dog/cat owner is trying to pull off a little scam. The story seems suspicious to me.

Site 2

MORMONISM IS NOT WHAT YOU THINK

Here are some beliefs Mormons resist telling you at first...

The LDS Church is the only true church. The Lord told Joseph Smith personally that all other churches are an "abomination."

The Lord said that some of the teachings being espoused by churches of Joseph Smiths day were abominations

What specific teachings are these so-called "abominations"?

=================

Any non-Mormon church is automatically part of the "church of the devil."

FALSE

Ok, but what is the Mormon teaching about non Mormon Churches - be specific

=======================

No other church has the valid priesthood.

TRUE

Fair enough. The Catholic church beleives the same as well as a few others. Join the club.

==========

The devil has even made a pact with many Christian pastors to teach Christian doctrines about the Trinity and salvation by grace.

FALSE

So then the teaching of the Trinity is not "devilish" ? Yes or no ? Salvation by Grace ? Yes or no?

================

In public we say that all religions are good and have some truth.

TRUE

Ok, but what do you say in private?

==============

There are many gods. We deal with three of these distinct gods from the council of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.

UNTRUE there is Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost

Ok, so there is no council of Gods? Yes or no.

=============

God, the Father, was once a man like us.

TRUE

Interesting, when was that ?

==============

His name is Elohim, and he had a literal father before him. (That means there is a god even higher than God the Father!)

The church has never received revelation on this so anything postulated by anyone is on this subject is speculative

So is this an official denial? No one in the Mormon church believes this - yes or no? Is this speculation allowed? yes or no ?

================

We can progress to become gods of our own worlds just like the god Elohim.

Elohim is the Hebrew Word for GOD. THE LDS church does not use the word preferring God the Father or Heavenly Father. We do believe in Spiritual Progression

Vague reply. So then, does the LDS chruch believe that you can become "gods" like "God the Father" ? Yes or no.

============

Jesus is the brother of the devil, not his creator

GOD the Father is the creator of Both Jesus Christ and Lucifer as well as the other angels and us

That response doesn't address the issue. Does the Mormon church teach, or is there a prevalent belief that Jesus and Satan/Lucifer are "brothers". Yes or no.

===============

Jesus was not born of a virgin. Elohim had sexual relations with his daughter, Mary, to bring about the conception of Jesus. (Not all Mormons are familiar with this teaching.)

Again there is a big difference from the ponderings of man including the prophets and revelation by GOD

Once again , a seeming dodge of the issue. Was mary a virgin or not? Did God have sex with Mary or not? What is the prevalent belief among Mormons and what is the Official Line on these?

=================

We are not permitted to pray to Jesus, but only to another god named Elohim.

We pray to Heavenly Father

And again a vague reply. Is prayer to Jesus forbidden or not? Yes or no.

Celestial heaven is near a star called Kolob.

Yes-another something that was take on faith-Proving or disproving by scientific means becomes meaningless

So the LDS Church teaches this with nothing to support it ?

=================

The Bible contains doctrinal errors.

We believe that "plain and Precious truths" have been lost over the years hence the restored gospel

So the the answer is yes ? I take this to mean that the LDS writings are superior to the Bible? Yes or no?

============

Polygamy is an eternal principle. Mormons still believe in polygamy, but just can't practice it right now.

We believe that Polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom

Another dodge. Answer this, If the civil law would allow it, would polygamy be acceptable to the LDS Church today. Yes or no.

==================

Black people were cursed with their black skin because of their inferiority in the pre-existent life.

FALSE

Ok, but are black people treated as equals with non-blacks in the LDS Chruch having the same rights and opportunitues as anyone else? Yes or no.

=============

Native American Indians are really Israelites who were cursed with red skin because of their sin.

TRUE on being Israelites False on the Red Skin

Interesting belief but qite unsupportable. Another "take it on faith" teaching?

=================

The current prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, is a prophet in exactly the same sense as Moses or Ezekiel in the Bible.

TRUE

Ok. Finally a straight answer .....

==============

He has authority to write new scripture.

He as Prophet, Seer and revelator receives messages from God teh Father-He is not authorized to Write scripture of his own accord

With what accord then does the Hinckley/LDS have to write "scripture"? Does a board or commitee have to review/ approve Hinckleys revelations or writings first ?

Regardles of committes and boards, doesn't Hinkley pretty much have Carte Blanche on doctrine, kinda like VPW and the Pope? Yes or no.

==========

The first LDS prophet, Joseph Smith, saw God the Father in the flesh.

TRUE

Another straight answer. I am shocked.

Adam did not sin when he ate of the forbidden fruit, but was merely choosing to obey a contradictory command from Jehovah.

FALSE

Did Adam sin? Yes or no. Was God's command contradictory? Yes or no.

================

Jesus shed his blood to offer us the potential to be forgiven if we successfully stop our sins permanently.

FALSE

Ok, But what's the real teaching on this? Why did Jesus shed his blood?

==========

We cannot be saved (forgiven) by grace alone through faith alone.

FALSE

So then we (all humans) can be saved by grace alone through faith, with or withouth the LDS Chruch. Is that correct? Yes or no.

=============

Secret temple rituals where one learns secret names and secret handshakes contribute to one's exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

FALSE

Ok, but what then goes on there? I know, it's a secret. Shhhhhhh ... So there are no secrest names and no secret handshakes? Is that true? Or is the denial just saying that these don't contribute to ones exaltation?

===================.

No non-Mormon is worthy to go inside a dedicated temple.

TRUE

Ok, but what about blacks, other races, and women within the Mormon church ? Do they have the same "worthiness"as the white male members ? Yes or no.

======================

No one who pays less than 10% of their income to the LDS Church is allowed inside a functioning temple.

TRUE

ABS at its finest.

=============

It is possible to eventually become perfect by progressing a little bit at a time through eternal progression

TRUE-But eternal progression continues in the afterlife

Hmm. Seems like a dichotomy to me. How can perfection once attained be improved upon?

Can anyone tell me what the BOT did and what they were guilty of doing and not changing in "86?

I think many people were confused and perhaps still are as to why Chris G came to them first to "set things right" and stated in the POP that they had walked away from the Word and God and the problems came from the top down to them and beyond? What exactly were the transgressions and what did they look like? It had to have been more than the adultery thing and the missuse of the money.

Considering Wierwille's (and Geer's) character or lack there of the main transgression was taking power and control away from Doc Vic and later from Geer.

And ultimately, why weren't we told so that the BOT would be accountable to the people, and how could anything be fixed if we didn't know what was wrong and where to fix it?

I think a whole slew of people wouldn't have continued to be deceived for so long, and many, many transgressions would have not been commited against them if there were some clarity about what the actual problems were, rather than continueing to cover up and sweep them under the rug.

True, but deception was a huge part of maintaining power and control. Clarity was never on the BOT's agenda. Dammage control was the order of the day.

The outcome in not knowing was the ministry and the vitality of the Word in people's lives was lost anyway.

The "ministry" was lost and doomed from the beginning. If we had "known" the real TWI and the real VPW from the begining, most of us would never have gotten involved in the first place.

The Word, and the vitality that come with it can never be lost in the life of a believer unless that person relies upon a person or a group to make it live for them.

If the vitality of the word was lost to us because of not knowing what was going on in the back rooms of TWI, then we put put trust in the wrong place. Trust God, not people or organizations.

My definition of charity/agapao:

Manifest love by eating steak (Genesis 27:4) and Reuben sandwiches (Genesis 29:32). Do not get a haircut, even when nagged (Judges 16:15). Nuts and fruits are in the valley (Song of Solomon 6:11)

Well done Oak ......