Bishop

Well duh, so are you . . . everyone who looks on this website is. Except one or two lurkers pre-approved by her holiness the Q-tip.

I thought "demon" was a softer way of saying debil spurt?

You accused me of being possessed. The Devil is the great accuser. Therefore, you, Bolshevik, ARE the devil. God bless.

Oops!

I must be slipping. That whole retemory thing started in DWA. That's the class that teaches that devil spirits are everywhere and they're out ta gitcha iffen ya don't watch out..Bwaaaahaha!

En Garde!

You're possessed. God bless.

You're possessed. God bless.

Just a note. The word "possessed" was added to the KJV. greak is just daemonized . . . .

Let me know if you need to borrow my retemory cards.

I have some from DWA. One's about not rebelling against athority, another's about not being homo. they help me a lot.

no?

It'll help you get ideas like this out of your head . . . . .

so somebody finally admits it..

You know he graduated Cumma Sum Laude or something like that..

he should be in GRAD SCHOOL.

Apparently the "kooky people" don't exactly have his best interests in mind..

I think he gets paid a stripend . . . Like $12 a week or something. Maybe they think it's competitive pay . . .

Me, I told God I didn't care to spend eternity with Him. twi on earth was Hell enough.

Have you taken the renewed mind class Bolshi?

I don't see much difference between the rank and file followers, and vpw, if that's what you're saying. All is fantasy. People wanted fantasy, vpw spoke of it, people wanted to hear of it, things didn't work as planned, people went back to just talking about it.

Did you read the book i recommended, bolshevik?

I think it borders on child abuse..

name your kid after a drunken, abusive, thieving, plagiarizing sex fiend.. train him to think gramps was some kind of hero..

tell him "preach da verd, victah.."

its really disturbing to me..

gramps left a trail of spiritually damaged women, and men too..

pa and *uncle* mac really knew better.. or I wish they did..

I just asked a few questions.. "what are you doing any bit different".. just running another slip-shod, make it up as you go piece of dang that's gonna damage people the same as they did in the "good old days"?

what kind of safeguards have you built into the program..

what kind of accountability do you have, other than to your puffy little self..

are you going to have "lead" and "rodeo school" type activities where people are physically damaged? Have to "renew" their minds to get "healed" or something like that?

What recourse does a participant have, if someone "in charge" makes untoward advances, innapropriate comments, abusive behavior? Just send them off in the night?

That is the way, it was..

we wanna go back to "the good old days".. you might want to rethink that a few times..

I'm not throwing you into that camp. That is a piece of information you might need..

right out of the starting gate.. "he's a great manogawd"..

Humble? Maybe as long as you agree with him.. I dunno..

Does he KNOW *his* people are calling him a Man of God?

Does he approve? Disapprove?

more questions..

He's just a decent guy who's been deceived by some cooky people. I think he's doing better than most have in the same kind of situation. As far as the program goes . . . most of the stuff you brought up just arn't issues. They're just a small group of young people living in rural MS hanging out listening to old teachings and studying the Bible. There's no ministry, no LEAD, no one to lead, nothing really odd. Just the teachings are odd. They only listen to them a few nights a week anyways. The rest of the time they study on their own. I heard at least one guy that came up with very unique conclusions during his study time and no one seemed too bothered by it . . . .

Humble.. a "great man of god"?

that's the FIRST description one of the "followers" attribute to him..

where did he get that from?

v2p2 has no CLUE of what happened in the old ministry.. gramps is a HERO to him. Stolen works are his heritage.. I really feel sorry for the kid.

where did he get THOSE ideas? That the corps program was a *great* success.. that the ministry was like a theme park, before the *bad* people took it over..

unbelievable..

I called him humble, that's just an objective observation. I didn't call him a mog or whatnot. I'm not a follower of anyone . . . don't throw me in that camp.

Oakspear......"more chiefs than Indians" INDEED.

In retrospect, I see how wierwille devised a corps program to be a manufacturing, indoctrinational process to build an army of wierwille-soldiers. The corps followed the commands of wierwille....overreaching and overriding the twigs, branches, areas, and limbs....to the point where this indoctrination was injected into every twig. Add the weekly tapes and monthly mag to this toxic recipe as well.

In 1980......there was a juncture point where "word in culture" was......(imo)......starting to break away from the wierwille idolatry. Artists, writers, cartoonists, musicians, financial freedom speakers, etc. were rising up.....BRANCHING OUT AND AWAY FROM THE WIERWILLE INDOCTRINATION. I know there are many who could easily argue that the whole thing was a con and messed up from the get-go.....but there was a short time when, imo, it looked like many were embracing individual freedoms in Christ.

But soon thereafter.....that "word in culture tent" at roa was closed down and people could NO LONGER sell their wares and promote their individuality. Individual expression and freedom was MOUNTING and became unmanageable by twi's bureacracy of control.

At one time, there was talk of REGIONAL rock of ages. And, Word in Business conferences, under the direction of Don Wierwille, was geared toward business/professionals and College Division students.

I agree . . . . It wasn't until the later corp people started to rule that TWI became completely nuts . . . . I think there was a lot of value in the whole thing before this points. I think there is a lot of value in many of the offshoots who went back to the good old days too.

Back in 1979-1984, the way ministry was growing exponentially.

In 1979.....twi moved its offices and "command center" from the EOB to the OSC. Many believe, and I largely agree, that twi changed dramatically that year. At this juncture, twi lost its "intimate flavor" of meals in the BRC basement, Sunday morning sharings on the wierwille lawn under the apple trees, the BRC Sunday night services, the hamburgers served on the front courtyard of the wierwille home, etc. etc.

In 1980.....more and more corporate policies were infiltrating into twi's framework. Outside vendors were coming to the OSC to get a piece of this growing enterprise.....Sysco food distributors, IBM salesmen, Materials Handling guys were stopping at shipping, receiving and warehousing offices, etc. etc.

In 1981.....Ambassador One flights were commissioned to get hq staff to the field and bring "field people" to hq for an extended weekend. Twi was attempting to bring that "come and see" feel to those who started to see a distancing and bureacracy forming. Other major pushes were underway to get Way Prod. out to the people.

In 1982.....with president-elect martindale on board for the October Anniversary mantle-exchange, the massive Living Victoriously event was a super-charged event wherein International Summer School attendees were invited to stay throughout the 10 weeks (?)...culminating with the 1982 Living Victoriously. Major prep all year.....more levels of bureacracy. If I remember correctly, F1nnegan was given a title above Bo Rxxhard's International Outreach Coord. position. F1nnegan was entitled with WORLDWIDE Outreach Coordinator. Also, noted.....cgeer was sent to Europe and designated the European Trunk Coordinator and European Corps Coordinator.

In 1983.....in the states, limbs were getting bigger and bigger. Several limbs were huge and needed staffed and volunteer staff. The Area coord. position was needful to oversee several Branches in a state. The levels of leadership one needed to address....like three levels just to address the limb...twig guy, branch guy, area guy... was abit too much.

In 1984.....many believe that this was the apex of twi's growth and notoriety. At roa, there were some 24,000 attendees and the compexities of it all were staggering.....the long lines, the pregnant mothers, the children's area, the youth groups in the west woods, the emcees juggling all sorts of rallying meetings, "third" aid, safety issues, camping issues, and corps working endlessly behind the scenes, etc. etc.

Does there come a point where this should have been de-centralized?

Does there come a point when the pyramid structure of twi....and its ever-growing wierwille adulation....need to be re-focused back towards christian principles and not this annual pilgrimage?

Did twi's bureacracy collapse upon itself?

Are you asking what the decent, right thing to do was? or just what would have helped build the Way?

I think if it would have been left decenteralized and more relaxed, Wierwille wouldn't have been able to push people as far into crazy-land. They would have either left or he'd have had to become more moderate. The hyper-structure that developed was designed to lock people in. From an organizational stand-point i think it was a brilliant idea.

Does anyone know whether Geer's class is still being conducted? Not that I hope so...

For info about him and his PFAL spin-off class refer to:

Chris Geer's TWI offshoot class

Yes, they're still running it. Over and over and over . . . . . They do camps in the woods for the young ones and listen to the class every year. It's not even on video. I feel so bad for them.

How do you know? The fiscally dishonest part that is. Not an accusation.. but I thought da way of old was fiscally honest..little did I know..

and the farmland. Can he afford to keep it? Taxes and all.. what kind of "production" is being done there? Does he rent it out?

does he need free labor to make ends meet? Pay *workers* in terms of hot dogs and millet?

Is it now deeded to a tax exempt non-profit group?

they aren't exactly "above board" by any sense of the word I can come up with..

I don't agree with the whole mission of that group and all but I really don't think anyone is making money off it.

It's a 401©3 non-profit so the money that goes into it only pays for the program. I think doug donated a piece of land to build the original house on, but there wasn't enough material donated to pay for it to be built so they didn't end up using it. As far as slave labor . . . My understanding was that they couldn't find enough work for them to do. I think they had to help neighbors build fences and stuff to keep busy. I don't think there was any actual farm work invovled. Either way though, I don't think 4 hours a day of work by unskilled and semi-motivated teenagers adds up to that much.

No way to know the motivations for sure, but i'd guess that the whole program is designed with the purpose of passing on traditions (passing on the word to the next generation). And seeking approval for one's life by building a community of likeminded people (moving the word).

Also, I've talked to Victor and he's really a humble and kind fellow. Nothing like his grandfather. He seems very genuine. More of a follower than a leader.

How is that relevant?

Ever consider how much Wierwille's fleet of motorcycles was worth?

Didn't stop him from demanding more, more, more.

ya, you have a point. still though, this group's the exception. most group leaders don't earn any money.

One of the newer "splinters" has declared its purpose to be fulfillment of "The Corps Principles".

How can that possibly help anyone?

Here's a little something from their site:

*******************************

The S.O.W.E.R.S. program is full time 24/7.

Generally, 4 hours work/ 4 hours study per day.

Various challenging program opportunities and projects.

During session, students will be provided room and board.

Students will need to provide for their own needs beyond room and board.

Program to be administered on an honor basis. Any volunteer may be dismissed at any

time and/or program cancelled [sic] at sole discretion of those charged with oversight.

To Fearlessly Pursue an Understanding of these Principles:

1. Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.

2. Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others.

3. Physical training making your physical body, the vehicle of communication of

the Word, as vital as possible.

4. Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the Ministry.

5. Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need.

***************************

Source: My link

Lots of "red flags", IMO

Ya, but they're not fiscally dishonest. They don't have full time ministers canvassing the country or what not. The guy that started that probably owns more than a million bucks in farmland . . . .

ham.....I am no tax expert, but think that nearly all of these expenses would fall under categories that clearly would be legitimate expenditures for "ministry" work.

To me......the bigger issue is discretionary spending with no accountability to board members. I mean, with the loose structure of a splinter setup......traveling to California one month, then South Carolina's myrtle beach area another month, a hotel suite here, a hotel suite there.......there is NO WAY the IRS would find these objectionable, is there?

The blurring of business/pleasure/ministry could be easily disguised without red flags, couldn't it? Heck, wierwille went hunting, motorcycle riding, parked his motorcoach at IN 500 races, .....I suppose one could have spent a week at the Grand Ole Opry Hotel and written it in the books as "conference planning" for their 1984 Sound Out event, no?

Clearly, there are many reasons why so many guys jumped on board the Splinter Express when the wierwille train pulled into Dis-Union Station......but then again, maybe I'm just more skeptical these days.

Hate to be the devil's advocate but . . .

Wasn't the whole point of the splinter groups that they cleaned up the act from the Way days? I've heard a lot of people say that they "repackaged Way doctrine." You can't have it both ways though, either they changed the WAY they operated and kept the doctrine or they changed the doctrine but operated the same. Obviously if they acted like the Way and taught the same thing no one would join . . .

In my experience most splinter group leaders are in it because they think they're doing the right thing, helping people. They try to be especially careful to be honest, kind, etc because they have seen where the other path leads.

That is the very reason twi fell apart.Never gave anything back,give and it shall be given unto you?

Twi never practiced that,People had needs,never met.

Ya, then they just used the money to move the Word . . . Almost makes you feel guilty for giving when you know your money will be used. Getting more people involved so they can get into the Word without really getting help.

If you examine the doctrine that was taught, you would, in fact, be confronted with the fact that it is just an extreme form of Restorationism.

you're right. verrry interesting . . . I've met quite a few a post-restorationist, who believe that the restorationist church went terribly wrong in the late '80s and must be restored to the state that "doctor," the restorationist apostle, left it in.

I really, really hope you're being sarcastic.

These topics are so random and off the wall . . . . .

As far as all the exhortation from the old days, Oakspear, that is why I think the exhortations to "toughen up", "be fully committed", or "simply stand" are the most damaging.

Folks are thinking they are or have stood for God but all they really succeed in doing is keeping their place in line while awaiting the slaughter. (Feel free to supply your own slaughterhouse mind pictures.)

The more sold out you are to the Corp and the Word of God, the freer you are! Like a dulos branded with the Way's cattle brand . . .

Well, in other situations folks boldly proclaim that God will heal their kids because that was group doctrine.

And sadly, they often have their kids then die because of lack of medical treatment.

I tend to think about what it may take to snap them out of the spell that their groups put them under through false prophecies and spiritual lunacy before it is too late.

But then, some of us didn't learn before the lies cost us something too.

Yeah. I'd always cringe when someone who was sick would be like, "I'm healthy, i'm whole. I've been healed by christ's stripes." Then they don't do anything to get better and start develop a twitch from believing so hard . . . . .

If they are unprepared then why on earth do they take it on unless it is for some sort of ego gratification. If they genuinely cared they would send these people to professionals who are qualified to genuinely help instead of elongating their problems. They'd take the time to honestly realize their own inabilities and get themselves some legitimate training before even attempting anything like this...

The truth is they have been "trained"--BUT by the same people who made many of these people "hurt, confused and needy" in the first place.

What do they expect to happen by using the same formulas that have been used for decades?

By some miracle the whole concoction that has proved time and again to be faulty will all of a sudden produce sweetwater instead of bitter?

Its not gonna happen, the entire system was corrupt. No tweaking of a cancer is going to make it any less deadly

Yeah, but I don't think they believe that. They think that they are trained and that TWI doctrine all works. Hence the dissonance and doubt.

*Let my people go..*

*and who shall go?*

*we shall go, with our bikes and wowmobiles, our flocks and herds, our brains and other acquired appendages..*

lol

It seems to me......CFF markets itself as TWI-Lite.

1) Same twig style.....same little teachings....same manifestations

This is true . . . except that you can pretty much teach anything and still be CFF.

2) Same pyramid structure.....same foundational class format.....other classes

Foundational classes . . . yeah, they're mostly the same doctrinally. They're classes don't teach the law of believing, the gift ministries, or down other churches like PFAL did. Also, they're foundational class has several teachers, so theres no hero worship. Also, they're structure isn't nearly the same as it was at the way. The coordinators can't tell the fellowships what to do. They're pretty much are just there to organize big meetings and keep everyone in contact.

3) Same call for tithing faithfully, etc.

CFF teaches that tithing is not required in this "administration." This actually sets them apart from many mainstream churches.

4) Same wierwille adulation.....two wierwille kids give support

No. There is no wierwille adulation. He's really never talked about around CFF.

5) Same attempts to grasp "good ole days"......mock rocks????"

Not mock rocks really .. . . . I mean, they're just normal christian retreats. people stay in hotels and go to

meatings. Food is catered in. I think a lot of churches do this.

But hey......I could be wrong?

discovered what? do you have an example?

I was trying to fallaciously highlight the arrogance of calling everything that wasn't TWI doctrine "error." If you pointed to christian theologians, they were off the Word. If you pointed to the critical texts, Wierwille had access to better texts. If you pointed to a logical fallacy, then logic stopped being true and you were still in error.