Bishop

Which ones are beneficial? I am sincere in my question? I am curious as to which ones you believe benefit someone?

Which ones are beneficial? I am sincere in my question? I am curious as to which ones you believe benefit someone?

Positive expectations in life help one to succeed. (By this I do NOT mean the law of believing)

Fear can and should be overcome in one's life.

It's okay to be morally imperfect (for example it's ok to lie if it creates a better good).

Christian's don't have to have a negative attitude about sex. (i.e. it's not sin just to THINK about it)

COMMITTED premarital sex isn't the end of the world.

There is no place of eternal torment.

There is a God and he's not mad at you.

Things that I think were mostly bad for people:

I have no friends when it comes to the Word.

It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word.

We know all of the truth, other churches are devilish.

Everything bad in your life is caused by fear.

Devil spirits are everywhere . . . .

Arrogance is a virtue.

I also think that in spite of all this most of the fellowships and twigs have provided some social safety net for the people that go to them. Being part of the way also gave people purpose and distracted them from destructive behavior - as most religion can. It also gave them a sense of belonging. I think many way people just went for that. I don't think that all of the people in the way have or do believe the doctrine that they teach. Just my opinion.

What proof do you have that vpw called him ANYTHING in POP?

Other than geer saying "vpw told me this", what evidence do you have that vpw said ANY of it?

We have proof vpw was upset, and that he went to cg, but no proof of any specifics about his son.

(We heard from someone else who interacted personally with vpw during that timeframe but was not in

the conversations between vpw and cg.)

You're right, no way to know. IMHO Chris handled that terribly no matter what VP said . . .

like you said, all solutions take time.

did i?

more like tethered.

jeez man, you should be a high school counselor or something. so upbeat and solution oriented

Common pattern of wayfer kids. They can never really escape.

Maybe i'm trapped and just don't know it . . . time will tell.

Intuition = superstition

Analysis shows that there are things beyond the obvious.

Nihilism is a belief system in its own right. To claim that being analytical (based on science) logically leads to nihilism makes about as much sense as saying that all people who eat carrots die so therefore carrots are deadly.

The superstition of The Fake International did, and continues to bo, far more damage than any analytical approach toward life short of embracing a nazi way of thinking...come to think of it...

I'm no expert on nihilism but i'll give this a shot:

Aside from theology all meaning and purpose in the universe is subjective. For example, why is living more meaningful than dying? If the elimination of human suffering is more important than being happy, than the purpose of life might be to die. If one subjectively concludes that becoming happy is more important than ending suffer, then there is purpose in finding happiness in human existence.

"

Imagine that you're playing poker and you happen to get these five cards:

A♠ K♠ Q♠ J♠ 10♠

You, of course, put on your stoic poker-face and deftly win the whole game. You toss those five cards on the table, rip your shirt in half, make a bunch of primitive, caveman-esque grunting sounds and buy yourself a dozen cars, and maybe a house or two.

If you showed those cards to someone who's never played poker before, instead of to the people you were playing against, and you'd be forced to repeat "really?! you don't get it?" about a dozen times before you walked away, wishing you could find someone who understood how awesome that hand was." -http://logiceatsbabies.blogspot.com/2009/08/my-difficulty-with-nihilism.html

Nietzche held that in the absence of God, there is no true purpose to life. That's nihilism. I think a number of other philosophers have come to the same conclusion, though i don't have time to find them all.

Intuition is not superstition. . . . it's subconscious process whereby people make judgments from the whole of their experience. It's the inner voice that says "this seems right, this is what should fit here."

Different parts of TWI doctrines have different effects on different people. Some doctrines are beneficial to most, some are harmful to most depending on how they are perceived and applied.

Groucho......yeah, I agree with you that "lazy lowlifes" has alot to do with it. And further, wierwille groomed these men to take it further than he would.......and, they too, saw the motorcoaches, motorcycles, fawning women everywhere, rock-star status, and dare I say that some had ALREADY PARTAKEN of the "fruit from the pear (pair) tree."

Of course, add those elements of arrogance and elitism and DISTANCE (where many, who live in other faraway states tithe to the splinter group) that permeated twi to its core, the culture is ripe for picking bushels of fruit and hiding it in one's own barn. I mean, c'mon......even during the Geer power-grab era, the Indiana limb guy had part-time staff people and volunteers help restore his boat!!!! Sure, he broke away from twi....only to put his shingle on cgeer's street. Someone told me years ago that he quit paying the cgeer franchise fees and is now has his own splinter sub-group.

Besides......after 15 years or so in twi (and a resume that sucked), I wonder how many of them had envisioned STRIKING OUT ON THEIR OWN FOR YEARS??????

They're not all lazy lowlifes . . . John Shroyer . . . . He already had a job when he started CFF . . . people joined his thing in droves because he treated them with respect and gave them a place to connect with old friends and feel peace and meaning. Many people left after they found closure. He was ok with that. He called CFF a church and regularly worked with other ministries in the area (his daughter does interdenominational meetings at CFF still). Furthermore, the guy was not lazy at all. There were so many old wayfers that wanted his attention . . . sometimes hed put in 80 hours a week. I remember him almost falling asleep during meetings he was so worn out.

I still want to know why someone thinks Rivenbark is "healing hearts".

We were told to believe that about a decade ago.

Did someone come to the conclusion that Rosie actually has "good" intentions and is actually helping people? Or are they another pawn?

Pawns are easily sacrificed, cause you usually have more of them.

Well, I think the way took a turn for the better after she took charge. However, I wasn't actually "in" when she did, so I don't have that much support for my position. I'll just leave it there.

What's really funny is I read Donnie's doctoral thesis once - in Anderson library. It was all to do with rennovating and upgrading the Emporia College to the Way College of Emporia.

Oh the irony.

With all that education, he had the ticket to a normal life. Having a Dr. in education guarantees you a decent job AT LEAST as a teacher. The grips of indoctrination must have been weak too, since he was so well educated. Didn't Wierwille call him spineless or some such in poap? Maybe he was right. The guy just didn't have the guts to face the truth and break away.

Like in corporate America or politics, the splinter group top man position comes with lots of perks. Sure, there is the obvious adulation and a cushy desk job.....but the bigger the "sphere of their reach," the more their travel excursions and petty cash accounts get blurred, mixing "business" with pleasure.

Maybe, just maybe......there are a few honest leaders out there (cough, cough), but I am rather skeptical since the wierwille legacy left us in a wake of exploitation and destruction.

If there is "growing work in California" (and the group is headquartered in Michigan)......well, it sure is nice to go visit the "believers" in California, ESPECIALLY IN FEBRUARY. Or, if there is a "nibble of interest" in South Carolina.....well, maybe they should travel to Myrtle Beach just to check it out??

Heck......wierwille went traveling all over.....deer hunting, elk hunting, motorcycle riding in canada, indianapolis 500 races, etc. on twi's expense. Nice gig with no accountability. And, all these splinter groups (100? or more???).....all these ex-corps leaders are made in the image of wierwille?

So.....hypothetically, what if the top guy's salary is $55,000 a year. What else?

...1) All hotel/motel expenses paid

...2) All meals/snacks/drinks expenses paid

...3) All gas and/or mileage reimbursement

...4) Possibly, a "ministry" car to use....(errands/grocery trips/soccer practise of kids)

...5) All phone/utilities/office supplies....."ministry" expense

...6) All meals during a conference weekend

...7) Petty cash for overnight guests.....pizza anyone?

...8) Plants for meeting.....later, go to personal use

...9) Extra food/snack/ from conference luncheon....go to personal refrigerator

...10) Etc. Etc. Etc.

No......$55,000 may not seem like much, UNTIL you really look at ALL THE PERKS.

Oh, that tax-exempt status is a gift that just keeps on giving!!!

Please tell me that this is not happening??????

Many of the splinter group leaders i've encounters look like they're tortured by doubt and deep remorse . . . the honest ones anyways. On top of that they have to work with hurt, confused, needy people without any real training. I can't imagine that this is a dream job . . .

By honesty, I assume you mean what is reasoned to be true based on science (since you're a naturalist and all). If you follow that path though, nihilism is the logical destination. Intuition tells us that there is truth beyond what is obvious, that there is meaning beyond just survival . . . . . . Most people take the intuitive path and I commend them for their optimism.

Are we really using this atrocious video to "prove" RR is a "good person"?

I was hoping for something a bit more concrete and directly connected.

Well, I'm just saying they're happy . . . it's hard to deny.

Put aside for a second my personal belief that these types of "prophecies" are fake, who spoke this prophecy over her? Why should we trust the words of whoever that was?

Of course you can believe whatever you want, but if you're going to engage in a discussion, then you're going to have to produce more evidence of her being a healer than somebody said that she would be one. can you say "circular reasoning"?

You don't care? That statement says a lot right there.

Some of it you can know for sure because she admitted it while being deposed for a court hearing.

No, that's not the important thing! TWI abusers have long used the tactic of declaring something "in the past" to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

Alright mr. evidence. How about this sample video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VPcPCwK_G0

These guys look happy as larks . . . no abuse there.

Obviously there has been a lot of healing under her leadership . . .

She was an integral part of the process that supplied VPW and LCM with innocent young woman to drug, rape and otherwise abuse.

She has never offered a public apology or acknowledgment of her complicity.

In fact, she flat out lied about it when confronted by legal personnel.

What, pray tell, has she done that absolves her and sets her in the position of pastoring?

How can she help people "heal their hearts" when she was a key player in the origination of their sorrows?

Allow me to state it a bit more bluntly.

"Can a pimp change its spots?"

Well she IS a healer of God's ppl. The prophesy declared it when she took over the ministry. Idk why or if she did those things . . . maybe she changed, or didn't understand what she was doing. No way to know for sure. The important thing is that was in the past. right?

Wierwille built his cult by building personal power & loyalty and selling us on a fake bill of goods

Martindale wrecked his cult by assuming that the personal power & loyalty would carry over and rebuilt using fear and intimidation

Rivenbark knows that she doesn't have the charisma of Wierwille or the fire of Martindale and maintains her cult through manipulation

Rev. Rivenbark is a good person . . . . a pastor . . . . she heals peoples hearts.

Really? Relative to what? ... I mean, it _could_ be argued that she's RELATIVELY good as compared to Hitler, ... or Stalin, ... or Pol Pot, ... or even Jeffrey Dahmer.

Somehow I don't find that too comforting or edifying. ... but hey, that's just me.

Well, what I meant is, she became President and all, which means she had a lot of pull on peoples lives. People who were already sold out to a lot of doctrines, some of which were pretty crazy. Had she said, "hey, lets all go to churches sometimes, and talk about how Jesus Acted in the gospels" I think she would have lost her position. Instead, she took a more pragmatic approach and toned things down and gravitated away from some of the extreme crazy doctrines without making everyone mad. I'm not saying shes great, just that she didn't lead everyone off a cliff or something.

Really, the discrepancies in PFAL could have been caused by errors that crept into the texts, or into the lexicons. Perhaps even the laws of logic have been corrupted. I bet a catholic discovered them . . . . .

Old Wine Skins!!

Rosie declared is "The Ministry is notThe Word" back @2003-2004. "We must make twi more like The Word."

Oh lead us, wise Q-tip.

I think RR did a lot of good considering the situation. She took charge of a cult full of people who had been psychologically/sexually abused and turned it into a positive thinking cult. Now these people can live a meaningful and harmless life. I think shes RELATIVELY good.

I don't know about you but I am so glad to know certain truths like:

Jesus is not God

The dead are not alive

I can pray perfectly

God is always good

God's Word is true

I will meet the Lord in the air...

anybody else?

Welcome!

I learned to discipline my mind, be courageous, be positive, avoid drugs, and a few other things. For those I am thankful. I don't think that knowing all of the ideas that you listed is good though. The problem is, many "fellowships" hang on to a lot of really crazy ideas and it's hard to join a church if you believe that Jesus isn't God, etc.

Cheers,

Bishop

Oh, no.

Silly me hung around until 1990.

Though, admittedly, I was on cruise control my last 10 years or so .

So are you saying he literally flipped you off?

Im pretty sure the scam was probably mixed with some delusion. At least once in awhile he had to "believe' it for it to be effective...

I remember him making a statement something like "If we're all wrong, this has been a great trip." Ms. Wierwille was telling people in the nursing home to renew their minds . . . . I guess it makes more sense that he mostly believes what he preached.

I think he knew all along it was a big scam.

I have my own personal reasons for believing that.

My apprehension all started one day in 1972 when he "gave me the finger".

You left the way in '72? wow.

Maybe the Way would offer a "tithe discount" to those who they kicked out. After all, they have a competition with splinter groups and all after someones been kicked out. Maybe you could give 8% and still receive protection . . .

Hey all,

JW . . . What do you guys think was really in his head? I think he really believed he was the MOG and all. He would even tell people, go to the Word and see for yourself . . . I think he expected people who had his secret knowledge to find the same exact "truths" in the bible.

Hey!

I just recently left (got kick out of really) a splinter group. It's been kind of challenging since I was very committed to TWI teachings and all. It's kind of shocking to realize that there's nothing wrong with everyone else . . . been lurking on GSC and it has been a real help. Glad ya'll are here!

Bishop