TheHighWay

Same thing happened to me.

I didn't admit to anything myself. Every time they asked me if I was "Twyril", I redirected by asking a pointed question about something the Trustees had done, or a topic in the WayAP class.

I started out on that tack... they started out by asking if I knew who "xxxx" was, and I said, "Should I?"

And then something in me just snapped and I thought, "They aren't worth keeping up the hoax. Who cares if they know or not? Why am I letting them control my actions like this?"

After that I said, "Yeah, that's me... so what?"

They said, "What gives you the right to be bad-mouthing your leadership and the ministry on the internet?"

To which I responded, "What gives my leadership the right to lie, cheat, steal, and hurt the body of Christ that they are supposed to be responsible for?"

It kinda went downhill from there...

Today's Koolaide is that LCM is a far gone memory. ---"he's all gone now. The trouble makers have left". Story over.

That's the line I've gotten from the few innies I've run into since 2000.

The very person who made the claims to fully inform is still hanging around apparently...

I was in-rez with Rico and he was a delight... just a guy who was full of life and joy and enthusiasm for God back then. It's so sad to see what he has become. But once you buy into the big lie that twi is the best (aka ONLY) way to know and worship God, and you start climbing that leadership ladder, it's pretty hard to turn back. I think he is convinced that by keeping twi's lockbox secure, and keeping "god's ministry" safe from outside interference, he is doing God's most holy work. Really sad.

Oaks - 3 meetings? One, he's being sued and it's being handled. Two, he's stepping down. Three, he's out, goodbye, see ya.

That is exactly how it happened. The first meeting was in April, the second just a couple weeks later, and the third was in August.

I wonder now if everyone nationwide was supposed to have those meetings, and if everyone did the same thing in them?

These meetings were coordinated VERY precisely across the nation. They were phone hookups, with taped remarks from Martindale and Rivenbark (maybe others, too, I don't remember) They were supposed to happen at exactly the same time for everyone. I specifically got outed by the WayGB when I posted that our third local meeting had not yet taken place in my area yet. I didn't realize at the time that only a very few areas had been given permission to postpone that meeting from its designated time. The WayGB read that, then faxed my collected posts to those few areas and asked the leaders if they could recognize the poster and mine did from other details I had mentioned online. He called me THAT DAY to say, "Don't bother showing up for the meeting, I'll meet with you separately." I knew immediately I was in trouble, and sure enough, when he and his wife showed up at my home they had the printouts with them and confronted me for my online activities. I was officially declared "Mark and Avoid" a few days later.

Looking back, do you think it amounted to them finding out more about what was going on with him and the others?

Oh, don't kid yourself... they all knew the whole time EXACTLY what had been going on... Wayne C---p, and several other clergy had confronted them about it, and what did it get them? Booted and black-listed!!

(were others booted out along with him that weren't announced or just him, I wonder?)

To the best of my recollection, no one else was booted but Martindale. Others named in the lawsuit as part of the conspiracy either still hold their positions today or simply faded away over the past few years, stepping down for one reason or another.

I've been told - second hand, but from a source I consider reliable - that when he got to doing depositions, he "laid it all out" and told of numerous similar instances and gave forth a lot of details on what was going on. That being the case, his original contention that the Allen lawsuit involved a concensual "affair" went south quickly, I'd imagine. Clearly it wasn't that "simple".

This is exactly what happened. (I have this from a very well-placed inside source.) They did the depositions and the lawyers got to ask questions, and Martindale and Rivenbark both gave testimony that clearly indicated this kind of thing had been going on for some time and a lot of people knew about it. This is backed up by the Judge's statements that enough information had been given that he felt a jury should decide on the count of conspiracy, and he would not remove it from the lawsuit as twi requested.

It is NOT coincidence that it was a few days after his deposition hearing that Martindale was put on probation.

He stepped down and no doubt it got complicated to say the least. I can't imagine what else went on during that period, but it got to the point he was stripped of all Way Corps and Clergy recognitions and fired. So there had to be at the very least some strong differences of opinion there as to how he was handling it.

I'm guessing he "handled" it the same way he "handled" POP, which was to spiral into a depression so deep that they had people watching him and got him lots of medication. What we know for certain is that he was shipped to Toledo, to live in a house owned by Dr. Z--a, (twi's pet physician) for a few years before he got his own place. This was a man with delusions of godhood, who had a WHOLE lot of twi skeletons in his closet, who was depressed and unstable and probably angry as well... what would you do with him?

So it sounds like those meetings you had addressed "what happened" (to a certain extent but not fully) but not the "why". Not enough to make up your mind about anything. What's to make the mind about? Nothing. Someone gives a version of what's happened and that's that. There's no information. That puts people in a very difficult situation. All you can decide on is how to react to the report.

At the meetings they told us what they wanted us to believe -- that the ministry was under attack -- that it was a one-time consensual affair. That Martindale had messed up due to the great pressure he was under as the Moggy and opened this door for the devil to move, but that it was OUR ministry (God's chosen ministry) and it was up to us to pray and believe and support the leadership as we moved through this troubling and difficult time TOGETHER. We were told that it would only help the devil if we went online looking for details; talking to copouts and looking to stir up dirt, etc. etc. We were told that since it was all a pack of lies, told by a couple where the wife ran the household, who had made demands on twi leadership and didn't get their way and were now hatefully and vindictively looking for revenge, that we didn't need to know what the actual accusations were. We were told to STAY OFF the INTERNET!!

I will say this of my experience in TWI......"It was the Best of TImes and the Worst of times" The best of those times has outweighed my best of times out of TWI......but the Worst of times far outweighs anything I have experiencd since leaving TWI.

Others have said it....there was a price to pay for being in TWI.......I'm still paying!!!!!

I think this is the best answer yet... definitely fits for me...

If I had not joined twi I would have found some other church or group I thought could "fix" me. That's a fact.

If I had not married the twi-brained man I married I would have married someone an awful lot like him. That is also a fact.

It's just where my head was at when it all started.

However, a few years down the road, after I had grown up a little, experienced life away from home a little, and put up with a lot of crap and grief from both hubby and the group, if the group was some other church and not a cult, I would have started making my own decisions and left both for a better life. And that's the difference for me. Fifteen years of wasted time. Fifteen years of lost opportunities.

So, where would I be now if I had left 15 twi years earlier? Based on what happened with my life when I DID finally leave twi, I would say that I would have returned to school, completed my education in a new field, re-discovered the joy of living, and made a success of my life. That's what I've done in the past few years. But I would have had an extra 15 years to build a financial base, advance my career, build a family... all those things.

I don't know ... but I think stress/trauma, physical or mental .. can be a precursor to cancer.

So can smoking like a fiend... anyone know how many cigs Vic puffed each day?

Happy Birthday, WW, whenever it is, from one of your fans!!

I needed something to occupy my hands, since my head was doing donuts in the parking lot of my mind.

Great line, Sushi... and a very accurate description of what I went through!!

I had been unhappy with twi for some time but unable to express it to anyone because my spouse was a company man, through and through. Then came the meeting where they told us about the first lawsuit... told us Craig had messed up... told us the adversary was using Craig's weakness to attack all of us and what we had built together... told us we didn't need to know the particulars of the lawsuit because it was all lies anyway...

As soon as I could get my hands on a computer away from home I did so, hoping to look up the particulars of the lawsuit. I felt that if this was an attack on me, and all lies, I had a right to know exactly what the charges in the lawsuit were!! I found WayDale. I read all night long... all week long... for weeks and weeks, I read and read... and I knew what I was reading was true. And I felt so gut-punched. I distinctly remember thinking, after that first night, "Everything I thought I knew for the past 20 years was a lie!!!"

[insert Sushi's line here]

I spent a few months trying to figure out what had gone so wrong, and trying to keep my family intact, but eventually I was outed by the WayGB and booted. Personally, I went out with a bang... it pretty much felt like my head exploded. I told off the area coordinator and his wife, lost a part-time job I had with a believer, and broke up my marriage over it. But twi-wise I think it was just a whimper because the BCs worked very hard at making it a non-event. They had already lost so many local ministry folks through each purge (homo-purge, money-purge, time-purge)... they couldn't afford to lose any more, lol. Geez, what a racket.

That "bless your heart" phrase always bugged me... because if we were supposed to "say what you mean and mean what you say" VP should have replaced it whith "you dumbass!" Would have been more honest.

I never said "bless your heart" much in twi. I said "bless you" or "blessed" a LOT though. I purposely made myself use words like "lucky" and "fortunate" to break that habit.

But now I live in the south and "bless your heart" is very common in my area... and yeah, it is usually a nice way of saying "boy, that was dumb, wasn't it?".

mmm..., so it sounds like a very close knit community (TWI), So on a Sunday morning I could not drive into the parking lot for fellowship and get out of the car and just walk in, like I could at my local Catholci church? You have to be "invited"? If I had a neighbor who was a member, would it be a common knowldge. Would he talk about it at all, or would it be a "deep dark secret" type of thing? What about adutl children that grew up in it. Would there friends know?

At one time they were so worried about being infiltrated by ex-members, you would not have been allowed inside the doors without a proper nametag on your chest, or unless you were accompanied by someone who had one. Even then, as a guest you would have been expected to sign the registry and get a temporary nametag. But I believe that has changed. I think that you could, indeed, just drive up on a Sunday and walk in the doors to their afternoon service. As long as you arrived at the right time, dressed the right way, and moved about the place like you weren't a stranger, you would probably attract no undue attention. But you should expect the person sitting next to you in the auditorium to ask who you are and where you are from, and if they picked up on the fact that you were not a twi-fellowshipper, but someone just "checking the place out" you would get a good witnessing-to at least, and may even be "guided" around after that, not allowed to roam freely.

If you had a neighbor who was a member, your knowledge of it would depend on if they were a happy member or not. If they still believe everything twi teaches and are happy doing the fellowship thing, you would know about it because they would definitely spend time trying to befriend you in order to witness to you and get you coming to their fellowships and classes. If they were not happy with twi but still a member, chances are good you wouldn't know because deep down they are thinking "I wouldn't want my worst enemy to get involved with this group... )

Then there are ex-folks like us, who couldn't set foot on the property without being recognized and questioned!!

It's absolutely true that some were threatened with death, not necessarily "I'm gonna KILL you if you don't straighten up" but "if you leave TWI, whether of your own volition or we decide you are no longer worthy of fellowshipping with us, at that very moment the spirit within you dies, and shortly thereafter, your phsyical body shall die also, because it is impossible to live outside the Body of Christ."

These very words were spoken in a branch meeting by a 18th WC grad shortly before we left. From the portentous manner in which he spoke them, I think he copied these words straight from the horse's azz, er, mouth, i.e. the MOGFODAT himself.

And yet, when I was in the process of leaving twi and used this as one of the lies told by twi, my Branch Coordinator actually had the juevos to tell me that twi NEVER taught that they were the only way to fellowship with God. (Just the BEST way.)

Yeah, sorry, but I was 18th corps and DID hear the MOGFODAT say these kinds of things himself!! -- hello.. Greasespot, anyone???

Pssst... guys... you should know by now that WhiteDove isn't going to change his color...

Can we stop making this one more thread about WhiteDove's point of view and get back on topic please?

and besides the fact that we shouldn't care what she thinks about stuff... I wonder why people think we should speculate as to what she thinks... and I realize that's not what all of the posters here think.

I think it's because she had the public persona of being a really down-to-earth person and people really identified with her. And because her dad was a minister and she chose to join twi instead of his faith... that's a powerful witness for some folks. It seems to imply she was less duped than a lot of us were... that she made smarter choices. People around me always spoke of her as being some sort of sage.

Of course, all of those assumptions are far and away from the truth. She was a kid when she got involved and had no special wisdom. She quickly became one of Vic's pet celebrities... someone who chose HIS ministry over both her father's church and the vocal career she certainly would have had. She was ordained, although she usually didn't flaunt it, and around HQ she what she wanted! While she could be a great deal of fun she was also extremely full of herself and rude and I found myself regretably unimpressed.

I was not one of the "favored"... but I don't think "unfavored" is the right term for the rest of us. Maybe, "ignored" would be better. You were just there to do the daily grunt work and take the classes.

Sometimes the grunt work accomplished things -- like draining the pond behind the Wierwille barn and then scraping 20 years of silt and muck off the bottom with bucket brigades until we hit clay and they filled it all back up with water again.

And sometimes it didn't -- like cleaning the dorm's bathrooms for the second time each day when most everyone was gone and they'd hardly been touched since the first daily cleaning!

Personally, I think Vic showing us how well trained his dogs were (and yes I saw a couple demonstrations) was a way to show how in charge of things he was as the MOG. It was just one more thing he was great at, you know?

It was also used as a mark of prestige. All royalty go around with their favorite hound at their side, even in normally inappropriate settings. So did Vic.

It certainly was also used as training tool in that he said people (especially children) were much like dogs in the way they responded. They need an alpha to obey, clear and consistent rules to follow, treats if they do, and punishment if they don't. While this may be true as a starting point, it mostly tells me how Vic viewed most other people around him... as something to be ordered about and controlled at his command.

What I don't understand is why would Geer work to destroy VP's legacy if he was a devoted follower of his?

I don't think he was trying to destroy VP's legacy... I think he convinced himself that Craig was destroying VP's legacy and so he, CG, came riding in to rescue the ministry and become the legitimate MOGFODAT to carry on Vic's work.

The truly stupid thing is, both these men were clearly carrying on VPW's true legacy: letchery, backstabbing, and narcissism.

Hi pausonne,

I'm one of those folks that know your brother and sister-in-law... sorry to see they are still at HQ...

Anyway, I'm glad you posted this. It has come up before that Craig made the claim and then never followed it up and folks have pretty much chalked it up to "just another one of Craig's rantings" so I'm glad to hear the facts of the matter. There are plenty of REAL things to place at Craig's feet without adding bogus ones...

THW

When we get off to the side he tells me because my wife will not be working i can "look for a new job as of MONDAY morning".

Jeff, that is a perfect example of the way they would try to pit one spouse against the other in order to get what they wanted. They used that tactic constantly throughout the 1990's, but from your example it obviously started a lot earlier.

Okay, back to topic -- I had no idea how common these strong-arm tactics were throughout twi. Here's my story:

On the field we had someone living with us and sharing in all the household expenses (rent, utilities). Unbeknownst to us he went to our leadership for some counseling. He was struggling with some personal things and thought, being leadership, they would be able to help and counsel him. Instead, what he got (after one meeting) was an ultimatum to change his attitude or get out. Get out of the ministry, get out of our house, and get out of town! They gave him a few days to think it over and then report back to them. Oh, and he was told not to go to any other believers about this. Of course, a few days wasn't enough time for an already distressed (and now isolated) person to get anything together, but the leadership told him he had made his decision by his lack of action!! He came home, announced to us he'd been ordered to leave, and started packing. After we picked our jaws up off the ground we called the leadership. All we were told was that this person had shown himself to be spiritually stinky and we'd be better off if he left immediately. (we learned the true details much later) We said it was going to really hurt us financially to suddenly have to cover the other half of the rent and utilities! Leadership said, better hurt financially than spiritually. (Oh, thanks.) This guy didn't have time or money to rent a U-Haul so he just took what would fit in his car and left everything else behind, meaning he had to start over with almost nothing wherever he landed, and they had him tell them where he was heading so they could alert the twi-folk in that area not to let him come to fellowships. I was just sick about the whole thing! (But did I stand up to the leadership? Nope, I am heartily ashamed and embarrassed to admit I did not. I knew if I did I would be the next one ordered out the door and hubby probably would have driven me to the train station himself...)

The Highway stated: R@n H*rst went into the 13th.

I humbly disagree. I was in the 13th Corps and he was not in it. As I recall, he was in the 14th.

Ooh... you are absolutely right, DL... got my years mixed up

Question: Wasn't all of New Horizons allowed to go in rez all together - just to keep the group together?

I don't want to get too far off track here, but I don't believe all the guys went into the same corps. J@mes $mith (a nicer man you would never meet) ended up in KS, R@n H*rst went into the 13th, and I don't know about B*rl@n Du*l and the fourth guy (darned if I can remember his name). But they did have a nice sound and they clearly enjoyed what they were doing on stage and their enthusiasm was infectious.

As for ordinations, a group of 18th corps were ordained very early in our "careers" as corps... M!ke And*rs@on, R!c@ M@gn*ll! and a few others... none of us were surprised as these guys had been marked out and given sweet leadership spots all through in-rez and after... more 18th ordinations came later... these guys were absolutely trained to be craig's watchdogs and henchmen! and it was usually obvious why they got the "promotion".

I remember them giving us a questionnaire of sorts... asked us what we hoped to do with our futures (secular, too) and that sort of thing. And one of the corps coordinators sat down with us to go over our answers. (we met with J@qu* H0rn*y) I don't remember many of the details, really. But we were told they took our answers into consideration. We were also told they found out what needs were out on the field from the limb leaders and basically tried to match the corps to the needs. Supposedly they listened to God while doing this so it all lined up just right.

I remember when they read our location/assignment out to us, hubby and I were stunned it was so unexpected. We knew absolutely NOTHING about this area. However, we soon learned it was a favorite twi-location as several of our acquaintances had spent time there as WOWs and LightBearers. And, to be honest, the one or two things hubby had given the most emphasis in our interview could be found at this location.

But I know that just like WOW it seemed like some folks got exactly the opposite of what they asked for and they were told God wanted them to overcome their fear or prejudice or whatever by giving them this assignment. I know one gal specifically asked to go anywhere but her home town because she had a very negative history there and didn't want to fall back into old routines. Guess where they sent her? She quit. After four years of time, investment, and training, she quit rather than take that assignment. I couldn't help but think they were dead wrong on that one.

I'm really interested to hear if the "process" was at all consistent as compared to what we (18th corps) experienced.

Don Wierwille's doctor's degree in education, I think, was of his choosing. It was only later that he came to be a part of his father's ministry.

Well, really Rocky I was being more facetious than literal...

I can't vouch for the validity of any of vpw's claims but you can find Wierwille France, it's just spelled "Vierville":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vierville

And if you look at the german translation of twi's wikipedia page you'll see Wierwille spelled Wierville: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vierville

If you google you can see that the name gets spelled vierville, vierwille, wierville, and wierwille. And I was recently asked if this guy was related to twi: http://spas.about.com/library/weekly/aa021603d.htm

My response was, couldn't be... no one in twi was allowed to get that educated in a field of study that didn't benefit the vicster.

... so unless there's a gift ministry of Big Mean DumbA$$, something was wrong somewhere.

That has got to be one of the best lines I've ever heard... I may have to make that my new tag line!!!

I'll never forget the immense relief I felt driving away from there, knowing I was out from under the leagalism and the mandadory meetings and the other BS. It was as if I was breathing fresh air for the first time in a long time...and I'm still breathing!

... I was walking down the street of my city, and stopped and just thought, that's it, I'm done, no mas. I felt lighthearted and free from bondage - free at last, after 18 years. I had nothing, but at least the life I built was going to be my own.

I remember walking out of my house the morning after I had made the decision to leave twi... it was like someone lifted the lid off the box I had been living in and the world suddenly felt big, and open, and full of possibilities. I, too, had to start from nothing but even that felt like more than I had had in years!

To have your reality just torn into shreds - it's a real mind-f***...

I was just re-reading this thread and this line stood out to me in a big way, lol.

I think you described that moment of realization perfectly. (I sure remember mine vividly!)

But then, where do you go from there?

Everybody deals with it differently, and you can't force someone to wrestle with things they don't want to face.

I know some folks think they can just turn a corner in their life: that was then, this is now, and the two have nothing to do with each other. I just don't think life works that way. I think it's all connected. But if someone doesn't want to hear it or deal with it they won't, even if you can see the evidence all around them. They won't.

I have a friend who is currently in big-time denial about a destructive situation she's in, and all I know to do is stay in contact and let her know I care, and try to be ready to support her if/when she ever decides to face the truth. And meanwhile, I have also learned that I have to be just defensive/distant enough not to let myself get sucked into her ups and downs that seem to go 'round and 'round and never reach any conclusion.

My copy is filled with page after page of yellow highlighter and comments in the margins... it's like the writers spent years in the corps... very eye-opening!