Mike

Tom, Have you anything besides off-topic heckling to offer the discussion at hand? And who ever said anything about physical? Have you rightly divided Gal. 4:19 lately? Christ is supposed to live in our SOUL, not our physical body. The mind of Christ is supposed to be born within our minds and then grow as we feed him the pure Word of God, and that’s what I taught here. You got what I taught wrong in your relentless efforts to derail and obfuscate discussions.

Ex10 and doojable, I’m not ignoring you two, and I hope to soon respond to your recent posts when my schedule opens up. There’s rain forecasted for the next two days so I’ve been making hay while the sun shines. In addition to a sub-theme you two seem to be working on, I also see a big breakthrough on the law of believing discussion of a couple days ago. As Mark posted his elaboration on the law of gravity analogy after I had I had used it in an analogy, and as several posters followed him, I saw a pattern that should be easy to write up and report. That should be fun. *** How did everyone feel about both Mark’s and my using something as technical as gravity as a teaching device? I may elaborate on it further if people don’t feel to lost or bored by what we said. By the way, Mark, I too have posted on Newton’s full formula for gravity, except I didn’t use math, just words. I also noticed that, in the thread where I had posted it, things were very combative, so I refrained from re-posting it verbatim. I am enjoying the relative calm of this discussion. With a slight re-write my earlier gravity post will fit in with what I have to offer regarding the string of posts that followed your gravity exposition. By the way, Mark, do you know what the opposite of gravity is? Scroll down for the answer. going down going down going down Ahhh. And here we are. That didn’t take too long. The opposite of gravity is comedy!

Ex10, You wrote: “MHO, but I think the whole "law of believing" teaching assaults the character of God, and the nature of our relationship with Him.” It looks like you’re over-reacting to the abuses of people-to-people in the execution of “law of believing TVTs” by blaming the written PFAL teachings of that law of believing. I think you’re lashing out at a teaching that has many KJV roots to it. There is nothing in written PFAL that does anything like “assault the character of God.”

Mark, I'm still standing because I could plainly see the great respect and double honor you extend toward the Pope in your longer post above. So it's more a matter of WHO gets our great respect and double honor that you and I would disagree over. Still, in their overractions to the fiasco that the ministry became, I see many posters here who think of totally obliterating the Biblicaly sound ideas of a Man of God and his due "double honor" as a neccessary step in fighting the devilish elitism that this thread focuses on.

ex10, Have you integrated that expressed MHO of yours with all that Jesus and the Bible says about believing? I sense an overreaction, and that's why I ask.

Mark, There's a problem if this idea of MOG worship is oversimplified in cult detection. Sure, I see the problems typical cults fall into with their placement of a personality on too high a pedestal. But we also do see Biblical precedent for great RESPECT, or double honor, being given to those men whom the True God chooses to help us. A cult detector with the MOG worship calibration adjusted to an overly sensitive setting will sound the alarm on Moses and many of the OT judges and prophets, as well as Paul with his traveling companions, and would totally peg the needle for Jesus and his twelve.

What you mean "THE" meaning, ckeemo sabbi? Since when has a word ever had only one definition? Since when has a word ever had a definitive definition?

waterbuffalo, I too have seen this in most of the offshoots and splinter groups. Sometimes it’s very well masked by a “nice guy” persona, but it comes out when the “nice guys” are opposed on what they consider important. This elitism is rampant in all religions, as well as in academia and industry. It’s part of the fallen human condition to try and “lord it” over others. Slavery is the ultimate fulfillment of this flaw. It was the striking LACK of this elitism that got my attention in 1971 when I first encountered the ministry. Back then just EVERYONE was benevolently “suspect” of having some kind of gift ministry or special talent to contribute. At that time there were no Corps leadership on the field. But gradually, with each graduating wave of Corps, the elitism slowly took hold. It was very difficult to pinpoint this as it was happening, but it started bugging me in the early 80’s. I called it “Mystery Busting” because this elitism caused great blindness to God’s great secret that we are ALL members of the same body. I was correctly identifying the symptom of a major disease that hit the ministry, but I didn’t know the cause or the cure, since that same root cause had affected me too. By the mid 80’s the Mystery was fully busted and elitism was in full swing as it remains today distributed into nearly all the splinter groups.

Law of Gravity (simple form) : things fall. Contradiction: airplanes can resist falling. Law of Gravity (better form) : things experience a downward force, which may be counteracted by an upward force. Contradiction: in outer space things don’t experience a downward force. Law of Gravity (better still) : Things experience a force toward the center of the earth that fades fast with distance from the earth. ******* When complicating come into the picture, simple forms of a law must be reformulated. The simple forms are good for learning, though, and they work pretty well for many cases. The more complicated the situation, the more precise form of the law must be utilized. Oakspear is right, a law (when most precisely described) is unchanging with time, or independant of time. Another aspect of a law is that it is independent of the people involved; it works the same for all. Another aspect is that it’s independent of space; it works the same everywhere.

Raf, I had to guess what you meant by "law" because every time I ask you outright you refuse to answer. Do you even know what a scientific law is? What WOULD qualify as a law in your book?"

rascal, Haven't you ever heard of grace? That's where we get more good than what we deserve. I don't see a "bust" at all. maybe because I'm not looking hard to see it bust.

Raf, We're back to that word "law" again. If we look at that word in a human legal sense or in a Mosaic Law sense, then I'd agree that error is right around the corner. If we look at it like a scientific law or pattern, then it fits. There are many factors involved in "operating" such a pattern or law, but only a few that are within or grasp of fine tuning. I think the word "law" works well if you keep these things in mind.

Raf, Think of the principles such as believing and confession as stated in the KJV, just to get away from PFAL for a second. I don’t think God put in the Bible principles like believing and confession so we can look back on incidents in our lives and make judgment calls. I don’t even think we CAN look back like that accurately. Those principles are for application. There are many factors to consider in the law of believing as stated in PFAL, and if we go by the simple abbreviated forms then sure we’ll see contradictions. Confession is more than making the sounds come out. It’s a heart thing. ******* oldiesman, Yes I know that is your pet peeve. It’s a bit off topic, the latest sub-topic, that is, but I know it bugs you. Here’s what I can say about this off the top of my head: 1) Instead, though, of looking at the few points that don’t yet fit for you, why not celebrate the many more that DO FIT? I to had lots of problems with CSBP and tithing, but they gradually went away as I re-familiarized myself with the many more ideas that didn’t go against my grain. It also helped tremendously to have a place to tithe TO that I felt was worthy of it. Doing it generates more understanding than thinking about it. 2) IF it’s the case that written PFAL is God-breathed, THEN the material wealth you have already received is HUGE! Those books and magazine articles are worth FAR more than they could ever go for on e-Bay. 3) It’s also the case that the spiritual meanings and benefits that come by way of CSBP and tithing are far more important than the 5-senses, physical meanings an benefits. 4) Back to the physical, if you have more than food, clothing, and shelter you have more physical wealth than most human beings that ever lived. Expecting more, in some ways, might best be looked on with suspicion by oneself, avoiding making the same call for anyone else. Look at how the fist century believers gave all that wasn’t a need, not even counting it as their own. I’d say if you have more than you need you’re living well, maybe not by lush, greedy, modern standards, but by God’s standards for runners in this race to the finish.

Well now, I think everyone needed a break, including me. Here is a summary of the first 22 “Thus saith the lord” statements of Dr’s, with red fonts to indicate the items I think are strongest. I've also included the post numbers where each item is introduced. 1 - TNDC p.34 - every word true - post #294 2 - TNDC p.116 - not VPW but Holy Spirit - posts #294, 310 3 - PFAL p. 83 - necessarily God-breathed - post #312 4 - Volume I - Preface - it alone - #317 5 - Volume II - Preface - it alone - #317 6 - Volume III - Preface - it alone - #317 7 - Volume IV - Preface - it alone - #317 8 - OMSW p. 124 - many, many times - #321 9 - JCNG - Introduction - appointed spokesman - #322 10 - RHST Introduction to Appendixes - the paragraph, and the section - #337 11 - RHST Introduction to Appendixes - quietly accept that which is untraceable - #337 12 - RHST Preface - edified, exhorted and comforted - #339 13 - 1983 Magazine Article - fact & Christianity in the Word - #354 14 - 1967 Film Class seg 66 - I Thessalonians 2:13 - #354 15 - 1967 Film Class seg 11 - I Thessalonians 2:13 - #355 16 - 1967 Film Class seg 13 - I Thessalonians 2:13 - #356 17 - SNS tape 214 - Light Began To Dawn - God revealed Himself to me - #362 18 - The Way–Living In Love – p. 178 - He said He would teach me - #363 19 - 1979 Advanced Class seg 5 - must know this book - #373 20 - The Joy of Serving - master PFAL (twice) - #377 21 - Last Emporia Teaching - take the collaterals and master them - #381 22 - OMSW pages 25,26 – take a microscope - #382 There are several more strong statements to write up, and oodles of the more well hidden ones. These will come someday. There also are several immediate additions I could make, by taking a book quote already on the list here and finding it’s corresponding magazine article and then it’s corresponding SNS tape, or by taking film class entries and finding their corresponding pages in the PFAL book, etc., etc. Such multiple entry additions wouldn’t count on the basis of textual substance, but they WOULD count for the purposes for which I have produced this list. To review those purposes for this list: Many times posters here have claimed that Dr did NOT make the claims I’ve been posting on for three years need to see that there are many things they missed in PFAL, especially written PFAL, not merely these 22 (and more) “thus saith” statements. Many times posters have claimed that PFAL failed them, but I say we all failed to properly and fully absorb PFAL. When we all come back to written PFAL we will find that every word is true, as per statement #1.

What's that, dmiller? You want me to do ANOTHER 22?! Well, I'll have to rummage around a little and see what I can whip together.

I'm honored. There's tons to talk about. Maybe we can do the Appearing Administration and related topics next. That can get really FARRRRR out!

rascal and CM, I'm not being bossy about who can post here, just suggesting logical choices that seem to me to have been overlooked. *** I'm finally done now with the first 22 statements. WordWolf, please have at it. What the Hey, thanks for getting me in gear faster than I had planned. I have a few scraps left to post regarding the hidden nature of many of these statements, but it can wait.

"Thus saith" statement #22 - OMSW pages 25,26 - a microscope When I first started posting I once confused this passage from OMSW and it’s mention of a microscope with another passage nearby mentioning a telescope. There were telescope jokes aimed at me for a long time after that. On page 25-26 of OMSW there is an interesting passage for our inspection. There we read (with my bold fonts): "Blind chance was not the author of life. Explore the mineral kingdom; explore the animal kingdom; explore the vegetable kingdom. From the lowest to the highest, there are marks that specifically call our attention to the superbly conceived reality of that which we observe. Some great design, some great intelligence confronts us everywhere we look in the realm of creation. We can always see an intelligent purpose behind this realm, which was brought about by some type of consistent power. "Take a microscope, even a low-powered one. Focus under its lens an eyeglass, for example. You would see some imperfections in the glass, although perhaps only a few. Next, focus a high-powered microscope on the same eyeglass. You will find that the more high-powered the microscope, the greater the imperfections that will be seen in the glass. There are imperfections in anything man-made. "This example of the eyeglass demonstrates a principle. The more high-powered the microscope used to observe the works of man the more imperfect the object appears. On the other hand, the more high-powered the microscope used to look upon something that God formed or made, the more perfect and orderly it appears. The closer the scrutiny of God’s Word, the more obvious become its beauty and perfection. It is only a man who uses a poor microscope who never sees the greatness of God’s Word. He does not observe it to see its perfection." Now here we have an interesting situation. In Dr's last months, when this book, "Order My Steps in Thy Word," was being written he was also challenging grads left and right to master the collaterals. I didn't mention this, but at least two of his final Limb Meetings in those months he also told us grads to master PFAL. That makes two Limbs, Emporia, and Gartmore. Add to this Sound Out'84 the year prior. And I've heard of even more. Do you get it? In those final months of Dr's life this book is released. There he writes that a microscope will reveal imperfections in man's work, but great beauty, perfection, and intelligent design in God's Word. In those same final months Dr was ALSO telling us grads to master PFAL, to look MUCH closer at PFAL, like with a microscope, to see its great beauty, perfection, and intelligent design... that it is the Word of God. *** We read above: "It is only a man who uses a poor microscope who never sees the greatness of God’s Word." Let's look closer at PFAL, putting aside all the drama that has enveloped us these past 20 years, focus our microscopes on PFAL, and once again taste the Greatness of God Who gave us such light.

"Thus saith" Statement #21 - Last Emporia Teaching - take the collaterals and master them Reconstructing past events is no where near as accurate as printed records or tapes, but some things can be brought out by memory and partial print/tape records, especially if it's multiple witness testimony. An interesting example of such a reconstruction came to me by e-mail. Several years ago I posted a small announcement on the http://www.eph320.com/ website about finding Dr's last teaching, "The Joy of Serving." It was posted there for about a year and I received about 40 inquiries (some of whom post here) which then led to many other contacts. In this way (and others) I conducted an informal poll where the results showed that a staggering 99% of all non-Corps grads were completely unaware of Dr's last teaching. Nearly all of the respondents to the "eph320" announcement were unaware of this last teaching so I sent them copies. Like in my posting here, I also offered them other e-documents of VPW's material. A number of these people developed into pen pals over time. Reproduced below is a letter I received from one such person regarding Dr's last teaching at Emporia. Your going to see a pattern developing. Dear Mike, Yes, we certainly would like more. Hey! My name is MB. I used to be MS and I was in the XXth Corps. I was wondering if you were in the Corps too or if by chance I might have met you? I just wanted you to know I certainly did enjoy reading "The Joy of Service" again. The year that Dr. Wierwille died, I was in residence at the Way College of Emporia. I will never forget the last 10:30 Fellowship we had with him up in the Ambassador Room. He said, Kids, the Word is not going to go over the world unless you and I take the collaterals and master them to the point you can teach them at the drop of a hat to someone you happen to run into. He said, Its not in how many classes you run, its in how much of The Word of God you know and are able to teach on the spur of the moment. He said, You've got to master it. And what I mean by mastering it is you don't turn to the next page until you completely understand and have committed to memory the first. I have never forgotten those words and have shared them many times with believers that I know and with our fellowship that W and I ran for 9 years before we moved to XY. So it really blessed me to read your e-mail and see that someone else really caught on to the greatness of what Dr. was saying. God is great. We love you our brother and we will be anticipating more. God Bless You, MB I keep in mind that this "record" of Dr's at Emporia is anecdotal, from an attendee's memory, and not a tape or published transcript. However, stacked with the accumulating mountain of hard evidence, this soft evidence can be appreciated since it fits well with that mountain. It in no way contradicts it, and adds more supporting data. I feel confident in placing this in the category of secondary confirmation of the theme that Dr wanted us to master the PFAL books, and NOT merely some of the principles in them. We aren't qualified to say what ALL those principles ARE until we've finished mastering everything. Just to enrich your appreciation of these Emporia words, let's look again at these near-quotes of Dr: 1. Kids, the Word is not going to go over the world unless you and I take the collaterals and master them to the point you can teach them at the drop of a hat to someone you happen to run into. 2. Its not in how many classes you run, its in how much of The Word of God you know and are able to teach on the spur of the moment. 3. You've got to master it. And what I mean by mastering it is you don't turn to the next page until you completely understand and have committed to memory the first. In the first paragraph (1) he instructs us to master the collaterals ...................to the degree of total impromptu teaching adeptness. In the second paragraph (2) he instructs us to know "The Word of God" ...................to the degree of total impromptu teaching adeptness. Does this seem to imply something? Did Dr say by implication that the collaterals are or reveal or give us The Word of God here? *** It would seem, to a casual observer, that he was talking in paragraph (2) about KJV Bible mastery. Then similarly paragraph (3) would also refer to traditional Bible mastery, BUT that would be an impossible task. However, if he was talking about the collaterals in all three paragraphs, then it's a totally do-able mastery task for us all, and everything fits consistently here, as well as with the other hard evidence we have. The collaterals CAN mastered. That's not an impossible task at all. Mastering the KJV/etc is not humanly possible. Just "Figures of Speech" can fully occupy a full-time scholar's entire life span. If at Emporia Dr meant collaterals in paragraphs (3) and (2) then this last Emporia address would then be in complete harmony with "The Joy of Serving" where collateral mastery is explicitly mentioned. From that 1979 Advanced Class Segment #5 quote I posted, until his death in 1985, Dr explicitly hammered away at our need to master the collaterals. I understand now why he did this, after having worked on this mastery for over 7 years now. There's lots of surprises hidden in them. Lots of confirmation that it's the right track back to what we used to have, and more. Lots of apparent contradictions in the get cleared up as we go. *** And now, just for further insight, let's compare these Emporia paragraphs with the 1979 magazine article "Masters of the Word" that I posted long ago and discussed in detail. There are several sentences in "Masters of the Word" that I'd like to point out. These exact quotes of Dr's from that teaching are: 1. We can only recondition ourselves to this as we ourselves become masters of the Word. 2. And if you want to know about the head of the Body, you've got to go to God's Word and read it. 3. This is why we have to be masters of the Word, we have to gain a knowledge of God, and we have to get our minds at peace with the Word so that our minds are no longer warring against it. 4. You've got to get to that point that you quit disputing with God's Word; just start believing it and then master it. 5. We just have to master the Word and let the Word have mastery in our lives. 6. Mastery of God's Word is not just my pleasure and responsibility because I am a preacher or a teacher. It is as much yours as it is mine... 7. Let's become masters of God's Word and let it reign supreme in our lives. We see that in all of these sentences from that article, whenever Dr refers to God's Word he doesn't mean the KJV, he means the collaterals. The KJV is for beginners, but not for mastery. We have something much better in PFAL and straight from God. I count Dr's last Emporia teaching as "Thus saith the Lord" number twenty-one.

CM, Start a thread on Job and believing if you have a lot to say about it. Right now I'm concentrating on getting these 22 statements re-posted, and I anticipate many days of discussion on them.

rascal, I suggested a cure for your nausea: back away from what causes it. Just a suggestion. ******* CM, I’m not going into the law of believing just now. Maybe some other day soon. ************************************************************** ************************************************************** ************************************************************** ************************************************************** “Thus saith” statement #20 - "The Joy of Serving" – master PFAL (twice) After posting it so many times before, I’ll refrain from posting the text now, but Dr's Last/Lost Teaching, should be counted as "Thus saith" #20. A teacher of God's Word nearly on his deathbed wouldn't TWICE point to his own writings and tell his beloved students to master them unless he KNEW that those writings were really of God.

CM, I'm not headed toward Job. Why do you mention it? ******************************************************************** ******************************************************************** ******************************************************************** ******************************************************************** "Thus saith" statement #19 - 1979 Advanced Class seg 5 - must know this book In the 1979 Advanced Class, Segment #5, Dr says the following: "I have set for our people, and it’s set in the book on 'Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,' and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven’t, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it’s utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I’ve discovered as I’ve worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves." This urging to the AC students was some 6 years prior to Dr's final instructions to us, yet has some striking similarities. In this 1979 statement he says outright that NONE of the top leadership (all AC grads) had done what they (we) needed to do. In 1985 he says, especially addressing top leadership, that there was a lot of the wrong kind of mastering going on, and none of the right kind. That Dr would, in 1979, demand such rigorous RHST mastery of all his AC students can only mean that he thought such a book was WORTH mastering, and that it was NECESSARY to master if the Word of God was to be known. Such a worthy book could only come from God. That's why I count this 1979 AC segment #5 as "Thus saith the Lord" statement #19.

rascal, I know when it get's to be too much for me and I back off. You could do the same, both with PFAL and with this thread.

CM, You forgot to include that it was the mother's GREAT and PERSISTENT fear that got bad results. That's what is written there.

rascal, You wrote: "How can mastery of pfal aid us in the two great commandments that Jesus spoke of?" Have you ever tried looking up where Jesus got that one greatest commandment in Deut. 6 and then see the section that follows on HOW to love God? It involves saturating you life with God’s Word, like a fanatic, or an enthusiastic fan. Jesus did the part that follows this greatest commandment in Deut 6, so don’t criticize the prescription for HOW to love God first there too quickly. Here it is: Deuteronomy 6:1-12 “Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates. "And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full; Then beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.” It’s only logical that if we love someone we love their WORDS and fill our lives with them.