Mike

Tom Strange, I wanted to let you know I’m still working on (and only now just getting to) the three or four long posts I promised to respond to. Doojable, there’s a large amount, maybe three posts I have of yours in the mix too. Dmiller, you too are in my hopper. CM, there are several of your posts I’d like to get to as well. But right now, this minute, there’s one post that stands out among them all as the most significant. *** CM, You wrote in Post #676: “see this is the typical carnal look at spiritual realities this is what pfal is all about-it is at enmity with God trying to explain the spiritual with the carnal mind “without spirit is without the spiritual mind of Christ cuz if you do not have spirit then there is no life-just dust “there are no answers in pfal to these questions these are some of the questions that should have been asked but we were herded in and told not to question from the start “there are many questions and there are answers “if you limit yourself to pfal you will not find spiritual answers the vail will remain and blindness will continue “few have seen beyond pfal while still involved but there was a few that i know of” It’s how you start off that I want to focus on. You wrote: “see this is the typical carnal look at spiritual realities __ this is what pfal is all about...” I agree. The written form of PFAL is in the senses realm, and the adversary was given total control over the senses realm. HOWEVER, the written form of PFAL (like the original scriptures) is given by inspiration of God. It’s an invasion by the True God into the adversary’s senses realm. The carnal understanding that can be gleaned from carnal PFAL can only take us so far, and after that it results in death, UNLESS God makes something more available after that gleaning is done. We were taught in the Advanced Class’ 16 Keys to walking in the spirit, in Key #4, “Study the Word much. What you can know but the five senses God expects you to know.” The written form of PFAL is not the end all. But as we do our best to pay very close and full attention to what God DID provide for us in the senses realm then God can make more available to us, spiritually. Jesus did this. He mastered the written, carnal, physical scriptures God provided for him for the first thirty years of his life. He did not have spirit at that time, but he worked what was available to him, and God was legally able to provide special protection from the adversary’s wiles during those years, since Jesus was not legally of the Adamic race, not on his Father’s side. When Jesus finally did get spirit, he went into the wilderness to sharpen his spiritual skills. There he ran into a seductive trap of the adversary’s. In most Renaissance paintings of this event the devil usually looks like an ugly guy, like with red skin, horns and tail. I’ll be he did not look that way at all. I’ll bet what Jesus saw was the most beautiful thing he had ever seen in his life! He might have even thought it was his Father at first. But as he and the adversary conversed, little things popped up to alert Jesus to the danger he was in. His prior 5-senses mastery of the scriptures showed him that this beautiful vision was mishandling the scriptures, just slightly. The counterfeit is often SO CLOSE to the genuine that only a MASTER of the genuine can tell them apart. The adversary is smart and can run rings around any human senses intelligence. That’s how he runs the world the way he does. Jesus had mastered the physical scriptures, mere writings on the carnal body parts of animals or plants. He spotted the slight deviations of the adversary’s handling of the scriptures and eventually rejected the vision. We must do the same. In order to graduate from the carnal to the spiritual we must first master what carnal perfection God has provided for us. Otherwise we will SURELY fall for a close counterfeit, a seductively close counterfeit. Mastering PFAL in the flesh realm will not bring us to where we need and want to go, but is a necessary first step. I know that some claim to have already done that, most notably lately is doojable, but I will address that later, and I can address that in very great detail. CM, I know you feel you have already hit the spiritual level, but I challenge you to look deep inside and ask yourself if the feeling of great closeness to God matches the power that is supposed to go along with it. If you are listening to the genuine spirit, then the genuine power will be there, and you will be able to lead others to the level you achieved. There is more 5-senses knowledge we must accumulate before we can expect to graduate the spiritual, where we can do all the things Jesus Christ did. Feeling close to God and feeling spiritual is nothing new. Thousands claim to have reached that level, but no one has achieved all of what Jesus Christ did. We are far from that, but we are close to the revelations God had human beings put into written form for us.

templelady, You wrote: "I would imagine one takes PFAL, or anything else more than once, To refresh their memory and to catch anything they might have missed the first time or to hear things that are applicable in their life now that weren't before." I wholeheartedly agree. You said that beautifully! :D I see that the same principle applies EVEN MORE to the books!!!

CM, I just got off from a two hour phone call, so I'm way behind on responding here now. I got some reading to do. I'll be back as soon as possible.

Howdy, folks. I just woke up from a nap, thinking I had halfway caught up with responses, but now I see I'm even further behind. I guess that's what makes life interesting. Coffee's brewing.

CM, You wrote: “btw-nothing bothers me about you” That’s comforting, thank you. *** You wrote: “Christ in you when did it happen? pfal says Adam lost the spirit all through the old testament there is evidence that the spirit is still there” Adam had to lose SOMETHING on “that very day” of his disobedience, and we know it wasn’t his body nor his soul. Something had to have died. Now I wouldn’t say that ALL THROUGH the Old Testament spirit was around. It was only on very few and very special people. Sometimes centuries went by with no mention of anyone having spirit and no prophets. It was usually only one person at a time at the most. Moses once complained to God about this and since other things were in place and the situation conducive, God assisted on this special occasion by putting His spirit on about 70 people. It’s in Numbers 11. This was a very, very unusual situation. It was so unusual that Joshua flipped out thought something was wrong. But Moses assured him that it was ok and that if God had his way ALL of Israel would get spirit. So spirit was pretty darn rare in the OT. It was also not a permanent thing, people could loose it. It also came measured. Some had “more” spirit than others. It wasn’t a thing that was inherent in ones who had it. The reason it was rare is because Adam and Eve didn’t have it to pass on to their children. The tight, lose, full spirit Adam had was not there in the OT. Just like Adam had to have lost something, and PFAL says it was spirit, SOMETHING had to have come on the day of Pentecost that wasn’t there before. It was a tight, permanent, and full, totally full spirit without measure like only Jesus previously had, AND it was easily available to everyone, not just a few. The word “easily” is a key here, I think, to the next part of your question. (Tom Strange, notice I said “I think” here. This is the frontier of my knowledge, and I admit that when I hit it. The following will only be my flimsy opinion.) *** You wrote: “pfal says spirit upon-what does that mean”? I’m still working on the difference between “upon” and “in” in this context. I do know that it was only very special or even odd individuals who got spirit (in the limited way outlined above). How they got it I don’t know. It seems that there may have been very special genetic and/or experiential differences in the makeup of the OT prophets that allowed them to have limited spirit. They certainly had to be odd in the sense that they were willing to face the wrath of the adversary being God’s spokesmen. Oddly, my fellowship coordinator just recently brought up this word “upon” in a recent teaching of his. He too is looking into this word. I think he is looking into the use of this word “upon” as it relates to us. Can we have spirit IN us and also UPON us? I don’t know yet. It’s the frontier of our knowledge. *** You wrote: “Peter says the spirit of Christ was in the prophets” Yes, and Romans 8:9 says: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. So, is there a difference between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ? It looks like there may be. How about pneuma hagion? Is that ALSO different from these two terms? I have reason to believe there is, but, like I said, this is where I am far less sure of things. I do know that the word “Christ” was not Jesus’ last name. It’s Greek for Messiah and both literally mean “anointed with oil” figuratively meaning “specially chosen of God.” So Peter may have said the spirit of the Messiah was in the prophets or maybe spirit of the anointing was in them. I don’t want to speculate any further. Guesses like this are good to follow up on in further research, but they can get out of hand very quickly too and become doctrine. *** You wrote: “a vail was upon their eyes what did Jesus do to that vail?” We know that the temple veil was torn top to bottom. However, I think it’s Corinthians that talks about a veil on people’s eyes today. *** You wrote: “what is in the holy of holies and where is it?” Best I understand it, that was a place in the temple that aided and assisted the believing of the priests so that they could receive spirit (upon) and get revelation for Israel on rare occasions. *** It sounds to me that you might already have some answers to these questions of your own. You know I only want to look at what is taught in PFAL. If you have some PFAL answers to these items I’m all ears.

rascal, You wrote: “I have noticed NO bruised egos here Mike....thus my question, is my perception at fault? __ I asked WHO felt bruised and nobody has been forth coming, I wondered if it was an exageration on your part to enforce your position, or a mistaken assumption. __ I ask again...specifically....who do you believe has a bruised ego? __ It would seem that you accuse/lable people of this so that you do not have to address their input. __ It does not seem very honest.” I think your perception is hampered by your faulty focus. You’re paying WAY too much attention to this bruised ego thing. Just go back in the thread and look at those who bring up the “teacher objection” to me. It would seem that they are dishonestly sidestepping addressing MY input with their objections as to HOW I happen to present it. I think their egos are bruised to have someone like me tell them something different than what they want to believe and for me to put it strongly. That’s all I have to say on this subject, so please don’t bother me with it any more. If you want to start a thread on bruised egos have at it. I’m not interested in this subject. I think it’s a waste of time.

dmiller, You wrote: “Mike -- I never called you a teacher, you did. __ Nor did I ever say you were the only one. __ I have always tried to treat you with some semblence of respect, and I get --- "You're sloppy, if not downright wrong" kinda comments.” You’re correct. You have been relatively civil to me compared to many others, and I’ve thanked you before for this, and I thank you again right now. Please don’t treat that one comment, though, as an overall assessment of you. Twice now I’ve pointed out that my use of “sloppy” and “butchered” relating to you was aimed at ONLY ONE LINE you wrote regarding the mystery! Do you now see that your characterization of the mystery was lacking? I mean it WAS! I hope you fixed that in your thinking, because to do so will benefit you greatly. *** Now I hope that one sharp criticism of mine didn’t prevent you from seeing the large answer I went out of my way to supply you with regarding the seed of the serpent. You didn’t respond to anything I said in answer to your question, and I think I may have given you several new leads to think on. I have tried my best to reward your politeness with an abundance of response, yet it seems you have little appreciation for my efforts. This seed of the serpent deal was not the first time that I went well out of my way, off my chosen topic, to respond in GREAT detail to you. Yet, when I do I hardly hear a peep of appreciation, you just seem to shrug off my answers and move on to something else to challenge me with. When you see people like CM, rascal, Tom Strange (before his recent relative conversion) or a few others in my face demanding responses with great disrespect and insulting tones, and then becoming outraged that I don’t snap to and spend a lot of time with them, why don’t you speak up for me and tell them that I do respond in abundance when people are civil? I’m asking you to AT LEAST be appreciative of my recognition of your civil manner with great efforts to respond to you. But to go the extra mile, I’d also like you to help teach (there’s that ego bruising word again) some of the other posters that they can get the same cooperation from me that I give to you if they’d just calm down a little. *** You wrote: “While being willing to listen (up to a point), about the *greatness* of pfal, You manage to alienate even folks like myself, Who are willing to give you a chance to speak your piece, And answer the questions we have asked.” Well, I hope you aren’t alienated over my comments on one line you wrote. If you stop and look at it again you’ll see that was the case. Remember what lengths I went to answer your question about how I knew Dr knew that his Gartmore teaching was going to be his last? I spent about four hours on that response. It looks here that instead of standing up for me, you’re standing up for the ones who attack me unmercifully and then expect me to do devote large amounts of time to their challenges when you write “...And answer the questions we have asked.” Tell them that courtesy works wonders, and remember that I have tried to respond to your civility. You wrote: “Sadly -- you don't answer the questions asked. Your definitions of what we all know are yours, and yours alone.” I do answer many questions, even some that are asked with snotty attitudes. I have spent 8 years taking careful note of what grads know and don’t know. I’ve seen some very obvious patterns and I think everyone would benefit by holding their breath a little and paying better attention to the content, instead of regarding everything as an ego battle. If I was into inflating my ego why would I subject it to so many attacks? I’m here to present some comprehensive ideas. They take time, and to alter the sequence and timing of what I present I must sometimes not answer things in the order others may demand. It is my GREAT desire to deal with all the matters I’ve brought in much greater detail and to help anyone who wants to know these things by a reasonable dealing with their questions. There are many answers that will only make sense to those who are willing to open the books and get re-familiarized with the material. Should I waste the answer on people who are not yet ready to put the time in to be able to understand the answers, or worse yet, should I waste the answer on people who are ONLY aiming to thwart my message? Do you see that the latter exist here, and not merely a few?

CM, You wrote: “you are not answering Mike __ not even the simplest of questions __ 34 pages of b**l**** from you __ ... answer the question or decline to” What do you want from me? Every time I try to communicate with you all I get is insults. I can put you on “Ignore” anytime and feel very much like doing it. I’d like very much to have a civil conversation with you, so the ball is in your court. Put yourself in my shoes and then approach me the way you’d like to be approached. You decide. Now, because of all the flurry of posting here I have lost track of what you wanted to talk about. Please give me a break and spare me the shore of searching for what your desired topic is and repeat it. I’m sorry I lost track. If you could briefly state what it is that bothers you so much about me lately, I’ll try and respond.

Well, there's a ton of stuff for me to respond to. Who should I pick first? I'm already pretty tired, having worked pretty hard today due to the expected rains tomorrow. When it rains I can post much, so most will have to wait until then. But tonight there's only an hour or so I have to post before my fingers and brain go south. So whom should I respond to tonight? Have any of you folks had this problem of having ten people with pressing posts to respond to? It's not fun, when you're tired. Maybe I'll flip a coin, or just go for the easiest one. Any ideas?

rascal, You wrote: "WHO are the bruised egos to which you are refering Mike? __ Is this your ego speaking? Are you doing the bruising? I don`t get it. The rest of us appear to simply be discussing the topib at hand. __ Could you be mistaken?" It is my contention that the posters who act like they are accusing me of some kind of crime or something by my posting with my intention of informing, teaching, and doing it in a comprehensive manner, may be doing it out of bruised egos. I think they resort to this "charge" because their egos don't like having me tell them something and my assertion that it is the truth. I can accept as noble the actions of posters to deal with the material I present, but those who can’t and resort to complaining with this “teacher accusation” about HOW I present it and THAT I present it are acting ignobly, in my opinion. Yes, I could be mistaken on this. But why do you ask? Was your ego bruised by my assertion that there are bruised egos here?

Wise choice. You'd be in for more than you expect.

sprawled out, Well thank you for the honor of aiming your first post at me (I think?). You wrote: “this would be funny, if you weren't being serious.” I am serious, and you can start your ranting or laughing anytime. The line forms at the left. *** You wrote: “you talk about the class as though you still believed it was god-breathed.” Yup, and I’m at 4,675 posts worth of serious believing that! *** You wrote: “it was mostly a cut-and-paste job. i know you know that by now.” We’ve all known it all along, those who listened to Dr with comprehension. He said so many times. So your god is unable to inspire cutting and pasting? The True God is able to do that. *** You wrote: “all this book vs. "film" stuff is just silly. he made MISTAKES in the film, left and right...” I would characterize it as a few mistakes, and thousands less than you would have made, had you been on camera for 32 some hours with nearly zero re-takes. *** You wrote: “...and they tried to patch over those mistakes in the book.” And with God’s help they totally succeeded, AND added in lots more material if you include all the books that came with the class. *** You wrote: “there was no great spiritual plan that the film was for this and the book was for that.” Please link us up with something you think IS a great spiritual plan, oh great one. I can’t wait to see your wisdom displayed, now that you’ve dispensed with what fails to gain your approval.

I see you ALL as assuming the teacher's role in MANY posts for the duration of the post. Some posts are not that, but many assert to present a point, to inform, to teach something. I take no umbrage when a poster assumes this role of teacher. It’s totally NORMAL! But when I assert a point, teach, inform, and my opponent has no substantial point to counter me with, THEN they suddenly resort to the desperation accusation that I am egotistically trying to be the ONLY teacher on the thread. What BALONEY! It doesn’t phase me in the least, and it exposes to all readers the bruised ego of the complainant. I suggest you all forget this teacher accusation. It fails you. Now, class, where did we leave off in our lessons yesterday?

WW, I don't want to disrupt this thread, nor spread myself thin, so THIS has to be my last post here. Wasn't it Mrs. Wierwille who was sitting with HCW and explaining to him the pictures? She was there in India with Dr and witnessed the healing, didn't she? I don't remember perfectly, and I can't find the thread. A person AND a picture like that qualifies as a courtroom proof, or at least acceptable evidence.

Isn't that what teachers do, inform?

Tom, You wrote; “Mike, are you talking about actual physical death here? I know there's a lot of verbiage after this quote in your post, but it just further explains and qualifies this statement. __ I just want to be clear here... are you talking about actual, physical death? ...to put it another way: ‘the end of soul life’?” Physical death, end of soul life. Jesus Christ was physically dead. His soul life ended. God raised him from that kind of death. We have victory over that kind of death as well as all kinds in Christ. Tom, You wrote: "No... I haven't forgotten... there's a response there... but there's more accusations about me and claims of misrepresentation than explanation. You always respond... it's just not usually a direct answer of my question(s)." Remember, my responses to you have been in the midst of battles I did not start. I responded in great detail to Abigail because she and I started actually communicating long ago, in spite of the battles.

Tom, I’m just beginning to respond to your two larger posts of today. More will follow as time permits. I had written: "I am quite clear on where I am coming from. I don’t know why you think I’m hiding anything. I post what I post." You responded with: "Because you never directly answer any questions about what you post..." Well, I just showed you where I DID directly answer a bunch of your questions, albeit briefly, but then I showed you how I did answer one of your pet quotes (to Abigail) in great detail. It's this one that I feel I can get back into, the one on defying death. *** Now in your more recent post #642 you write: “There is no discussing or debating PFAL with Mike. There's no use, he's told us this before but it's nice that he put it out here again.” I SEVERELY PROTEST THIS! Many here have positions set in stone against PFAL and VPW, but only quietly admit it! It doesn’t prevent them from discussion, does it? You did quote, but seemed to ignore this line in my post: “There are other things I am flexible with and can change my mind on, but...” There’s plenty of discussion we all can have here, but if anyone thinks they are going to change my mind on THIS issue, then the discussions will not do that. Discussion is not always meant to change another’s mind. Tom, can you change, and come back to PFAL? Or are you set in stone against it? And aren’t you assuming the role of a teacher by posting what you just posted in #642?

Tom, had you forgotten that I DID respond to your quotes back then?

WordWolf, You wrote: Ok, since you insist on bringing that up again, here's how THAT discussion went. HCW says he saw pictures of vpw in India. HCW says he saw crowds around a train. HCW says he saw a guy. HCW says he was told "this is the guy vpw healed" and "this crowd was here specifically to meet with vpw." He then accepted that this was EXACTLY what those single still images meant. However, they are not "proof". You forgot to mention that HCW was sitting next to an eye witness of the healing. And yes, I am biased, but I admit it. You don’t. I'll bow out to lessen any disruption. ... but first... Raf, You wrote (with my bold fonts): "It's a gag he heard or read somewhere, and whether he read it in an actual newspaper clipping, a homiletic joke book, or an old piece of literature, it falls square into the category of teaching devices. It doesn't need to be true: it only needs to illustrate a point." I admire your objectivity here.

Tom, Some more searching of this board yielded this from my thread titled “A proPFAL Thread - General Comments” and it too is over a year old. Mike Jan 22 2005, 11:36 PM Post #89 Abigail, You wrote: "How does studying PFAL defeat death, Mike? We will all face death one day, unless the return comes first, no?" PFAL stands for ( and I'm sure you know, but it's worth spelling it out) Power for Abundant Living. Death is the opposite of living, it stops life. The power God wants us to have is the power to stop that which limits abundance of life. With all nine manifestations in operation in the Body of Christ death can be avoided, because it's always against God's will, and God will always supply the information and the power to defeat death. The reason we say we face death is because no one has taped into this power God supplies in Christ to it's fullest. It's been available in one sense, yet elusive for 2000 years. PFAL is God's move to remove that elusiveness through the most up front, all inclusive, yet simple teaching of how that power can be finally put into operation. The Return of Christ, I'm learning, is a multifaceted broad event, comprising of many mini "returns." When you, that is to say Christ in you, returns to this written teaching in the PFAL books he can then receive the nourishment needed to rise up and conquer death in your life. You can do this because the way God designed this set of events is there is now, for the first time in history, not only the teaching necessary, but also the community of other grads who can do it with you, with us, and together our believing can rise to that perfectly renewed mind. Where one grad fails, another can help lift him up, and he another in return. The teaching is all in place ready to be tapped into deeper than it was the first time around, the times are ripe politically with the freedom of religion and expression that now reigns like never before, the communication is all in place, the travel technology, the health technology to give us life spans that can reach long enough to learn enough to believe enough, etc. These are all things that the first century was lacking. They had a fading memory of the one man who went all the way with the believing and power. They had the difficulty of receiving the revelation of the Mystery counter to all tradition. They had limited life spans, travel, and communication. They had political repression. We have it all in place except for one thing: we have been temporarily talked out of using what we have. But that's changing. The time of our return to God's revelation is at hand. It's time to see Jesus Christ NOW, by becoming like him through this Word we've been given. When we return to PFAL we learn how to see him and his perfect example of perfect believing. The time for waiting passively for Christ's return is over. We can return to God and see NOW. The time to see death defeated has arrived. Who wants to be among the first to believe (act) and see? THAT's how studying PFAL will defeat death.

ex10, Several days ago You posted this, and it’s been on my mind since. “Sigh...... __ Mike __ For some reason, you seem incapable of hearing what I am saying to you. You make malicious presumptions about me and my experiences. If you indeed want to "teach" somebody something worthwhile, might I suggest you work on your listening skills? __ Your responses to me, usually have nothing to do with anything I've said. They have everything to do with whatever is going on in your own head. __ Frustrating........” Then shortly after that doojable wrote something similar: “Mike, sometimes you have trouble understanding what we mean and we keep on repeating ourselves. isn't even at all possible that you are mistaken on your conclusions of what dr meant.” I’ve been thinking through ways to answer you both but couldn’t get past the thinking stage. But then doojable posted today (in post #635 above) a clue to what you may have been talking about. Is your frustration one of not being able to talk me out of my mindset? It looks like that may be doojable’s, but I though I’d ask you and then her. (dooj? what do you say?) It also occurred to me that maybe what you were talking about was my not responding to your posts with something like “I see your point and I feel that you are doing the best for your own life.” If this second guess of mine is accurate, I’d have to STILL resist saying the above, but could say this: “I see your point and see that you are doing what you think is the best for your own life, BUT I still think there is something much better for you in coming back to written PFAL and getting it right and complete this time.” I know this too may not be what you want to hear, but is it at least closer? If I’m totally off base with both guesses here, could you please try again? If you could help me see what you think I’m not seeing I’ll try to listen again. Showing me specifically what you feel I missed may help. I'm especially concerned with "You make malicious presumptions about me and my experiences." Could you at least quote me on this one? Thanks.

Tom Strange, If I don't get to your two posts above tonight, there's rain on the way here so I will soon. I have looked them over and had a few preliminary thoughts before responding point for point. One thought is this: Just yesterday a grad in this area died. I hadn’t seen this person in 8 years, but the facts of death still hit hard since I fellowshipped with this person at one time. It was even harder on me to see the reaction of a few other grads to this death, and how far they had drifted from what we were taught on the subject. It also got me thinking about one of your pet quotes, about studying PFAL and defeating or defying death. Another thought is this: If I am afraid of those pet quotes, why would I have made them in the first place? And why would I hang around for you to throw them at me again and again? Anyway, it occurred to me that the quote of mine on defeating death may still be on the board so I did a search and found some interesting things. You see, Tom, it’s not that I’m afraid of those quotes of mine, it’s the large amount of work involved in dealing with them. It may have occurred to you by this time that I have an enormous agenda to discuss here regarding what we all received in PFAL. The truth is simple, but the complexities of error surrounding each truth make presenting my agenda very complex. When I first made those quotes I had seen that the large buildup of context preceding each one supported it the way I felt was necessary, due to the demanding complexities of the errors surrounding each topic. When you bring even one such quote up and demand any kind of review, I think of the huge buildup that will again be necessary to support what I have to say about it. It’s that large amount of essay work I see that is ONE reason I so often refuse. I know you don’t want that supporting essay work, but I do. It’s my agenda not yours. Even just orienting my mind to undertake such a task is often daunting to me. Anyway, today I’ve been thinking long and hard about the death issue, so the orienting is done there. I’m willing to get into that one some, especially if the rains predicted this weekend materialize. *** But until then, I did do some preliminary searching just now and found something interesting. I am thankful to you for your recent rounds of deeper discussion than we’ve had in the past, so I hope the tone of this old post will not disrupt the more polite habits you and I are developing. I just want to show you that I HAVE tried in the past to deal with your issues, but was often frustrated by your reception of my efforts each time. I will try again with this death thing, so this quote below is a side issue. This can be found here on WW’s thread titled “Digest/Commentary re: propfal thread-Gen com” at http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...21entry114421 Mike Jan 23 2005, 11:59 PM Post #73 Tom Strange, You seem have very little willingness to debate these issues with me so you resort to vain repetitions. Allow me to engage you in a deeper way here. I will comment on every line of your paste job. *** ... ...Mike has stated that: PFAL is 'God's Word reissued'. Yes. That's my way of putting it, with the qualifier that it's the written form of PFAL, the book and magazine form, and that it is addressed to us grads. *** ... ...Mike has stated that this means we don't need any versions of the Bible anymore, only PFAL. Yes, but the "we" here is Older Leader Grads (OLGs) of PFAL who have already spend a lot of time with our KJVs, many other teachings, and field experience, and not enough time with PFAL. For OLGs without that background, this statement of yours, Tom, is false. Actually, we OLGs do most certainly need, not only the assumed background mentioned above, but we also need the many, many, many KJV verses quoted in the pages of PFAL. Without those those verses, and the knowledge of where they came from, then Tom, your statement is wrong. I might add here that an occasional reach for our KJVs for review, or context, or to follow up on a suggested reference in PFAL is certainly in order. For instance, in GMWD pages 91-92 contain a reference to Jeremiah 36: 23 and a summary paragraph of many KJV verses surrounding it. This is not a direct order to read those many verses, but I would take it as an essential suggestion. Once I've done that a few times, THEN I don't need to go there any more for a long while. In other words, my "Yes" to the above is so qualified, that I'd say, Tom, your line here is an extreme over-abbreviation. You do not do my message justice. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY. *** ... ...Mike has stated that PFAL is the word of God, Yes, but that's "Word" with a capital "W." *** ... ...that the Holy Spirit has provided us with His Word in written form in PFAL, and it (PFAL) carries all the authority of God Almighty. Again, that "us" is OLGs with tons of exposure to KJV and other learning as mentioned above. *** ... ...Mike has offered a 'Table of Challenge' (which he claims exposes things which some would prefer to keep hidden away)... ... So far so good. However this doesn't explain what that 'Table of Challenge' is, so it's poor writing on your part, Tom. Again, it's an over-abbreviation. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY. *** ... ... so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval. This line is complete hogwash! This either demonstrates a complete ignorance of what you write, Tom, or a deliberate attempt to smear me. I've written hundreds of lines on the 'Table of Challenge' and I dare you to produce the source of this, or I'll call it slander. Tom, I could challenge you to a debate, you and you alone, in real time to face my Table of Challenge. We could do it on a telephone with a tape recorder running. Or we could do it in any other way that would assure that you receive no outside help. You have not read anything at all about this topic and are ignorant of what it means. Before I do make this challenge, though, you must demonstrate to me that you did this out of ignorance, and not in a deliberate attempt to smear me, AND that you have gone back and educated yourself by re-reading at least some of what I have actually written on this topic. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY. *** ... ...Mike has stated that Christ is currently learning from PFAL and will be teaching from PFAL materials when he returns. This discounts the reality of Christ in me and Christ in any grad who comes back to PFAL and learns more deeply from it. TOM, YOU MISREPRESENT ME GREATLY. *** ... ...Mike has stated that betraying Dr's revelations is betraying God. Yes. But only for those revelations that are from the True God, i.e. the written forms of PFAL. Those revelations are of God and not of Dr. This would be true of betraying any true revelation to any human being. If I betray a revelation from the True God to Tom Strange, then I betray the True God. *** ... ...You just need to feed that Christ inside with the pure Word of PFAL. Yes, with the understanding that "You" is an OLG. *** ... ...Mike has stated that studying PFAL will defeat death. No. Study with the intent to MASTER the written PFAL will bring a student closer to that victory, though. That victory will soon be complete, because the master is at hand. All in all, Tom, you misrepresent me greatly. . . . Now please remember this post was done over a year ago, long before the present civil discouse started. Once again, I am thankful to be in a better mode with you now. I'm also thankful to see that since this old post of mine you removed the line "... so that we may have access to his advanced abilities and approval" from your list of quotes, so thank you for that.

doojable, I've long ago and many times said this, that I am done with the search process and the big decision process, and am totally commited to mastering PFAL. I guess I should say it regularly for those who hadn't yet heard and think there is any chance of convicing me otherwise. There is no chance whatsoever. There are other things I am flexable with and can change my mind on, but not on this Word God taught Dr and Dr put into written form for us. I've even posted many times that I've closed my mind on this issue, and am proud of it. To answer WW on his "Navelite" thread, yes, I am biased on this, but at least I admit it. Is there anything in your life that you are totally sold on? ...that you will never change on?

This thread reminds me of how many posters hung their hats on the supposed weather research done to “prove” that no snow fell on that fateful day in October 1942. Lifted Up came on board and quietly testified to seeing TWO such heavy and extremely local rogue snow storms. Few paid any attention. This thread also reminds me of how some posters here were looking for more dirt on VPW (a full time pre-occupation for some) and started cranking up a rumor machine that he was racist and hated Blacks. Then HCW came in and very forcefully trounced it to pieces with his firsthand experiences with Dr and how he didn’t have a shred of that in him. The rumor machine building quietly stopped and they went off looking for dirt in some other places. After HCW is long gone from here, I wonder how many others will try and reinvent that same racism rumor. HCW also did great service in reporting how he and Mrs. Wierwille looked at India photos that substantiated Dr’s PFAL accounts of the healing at the train station. Many posters seeking dirt and lies were disappointed. And some posters here think that they are objective researchers! I gotta laugh. *** For the record, here’s how Dr put the navel incident in the PFAL book on page 125: “An example of people trying to stand approved of God is a sadly ridiculous commentary on so-called Christians. Many years ago when I was doing research in the archives of the University of Chicago Divinity School, I came across a clipping from a newspaper on a denomination which had two factions. The cause of the rift was the question whether or not God origi¬nally had created Adam and Eve with or without navels. Incredible! One group said that Adam and Eve did not have navels while the other faction believed that God had given both Adam and Eve navels. The one group built a new church just across the street from the old one and called their new denomination the First Church of the Navelites. Christians bring disapproval to themselves when they become side- tracked on such irrelevant matters.” So the only fact to research here is whether that newspaper clipping ever existed, not the actual group or church. Still, there’s testimony on this thread that people actually do seriously think this way about navels, as Dr accurately reported. That’s the point Dr was making. WW, your bias is showing.

CM, I'm here to discuss PFAL and it's contents. I know you are not up to that task.