Mike

And am I not allowed to e-mail any other GreaseSpotters to bring up a private topic? Is that "unsolicited" if I sent you an e-mail?

I really want to know the rules. Whoever makes the rules let me know.

And if I choose to NOT answer a question,

or delay response to a time I think the context will support it,

or don't have time...

Will you then vote me off?

Or will you sick a hacker on me?

Look how the topic is ME here. I don't like that. I want to be a messenger. I want you folks to debate the message, not ME!

When do I have permission from you all to get back on the thread topic?

Abigail et all. Look at what Gamaliel said in Acts.

Well, OCD#1, in addition to a few more very exciting, loving, peacful items up my sleeve, one of which I already dropped a teensey tiny hint on many posts ago, I'm currently witnessing to the WAYGB. You're making it very difficult for me to stay on track.

Ok. I got some sleep.

I'm going to write Pawtucket and ask him how to handle all this.

Seems SOME of you folks really don't want me here, and now I'm getting warned of a threat.

Very twi-like atmosphere.

I noticed no one took me up on my suggestion for a poll. Afraid of the results? I'm not. But then again, OCD#1 has the skills to throw it off. Maybe an open ballot.

I appeal to Caesar.... I mean Andy Kaufmann. If I'm legitimately voted off I'll take my ball and glove and leave.

Mark, I'm talking about the way I was treated above. Your head is so stuck in theology you can't see anything practical, like the adversary infecting yout family. Read the OTHER people's posts above, not mine. Read them and weep. The same thing that happened at twi is happening right here before your very eyse, and you want to talk SOUND BITE theology!

WAKE UP and SMELL THE SHILT!

May I disagree with you, Mark? It was a class from God, and that’s why the adversary turned all his venom on everyone there when they let their guard down. Now I come here to express that opinion (sometimes opinions are correct) and the adversary turns his venom on me.

Just look at the above posts. Mark, can you with good conscience, as a writer on the Lordship of Jesus Christ, stand by and ignore those posts and simply write on about your theology?

I did my best to reach out to a girl who asked for my help, and look how it’s received. I’m dangerous?

It’s just as bad here as TWI-2. If someone doesn’t tow the official line, both here or twi, then unleash the dogs on him!

Maybe those posts will be gone when the administrators get back from their dates, or wake up tomorrow morning, but the venom wont be gone, will it linger until you responsible GreaseSpotters (RG where are you) figure out how it got here. It will grow and consume you all.

So venom at twi has no excuse, but it is ok here, because people had something happen to them? Is that how it works?

What if twi leaders had “something” happen to them, is their venom ok and understandable then? What if Dr had something happen to HIM, will you all give him a pass?

Does anyone here know Abigail and Vertical Limit. Are you ashamed of their twi like behavior? Are you going to confront venom here, or give it a pass, just like it got in twi?

Rafael, you said you attack the message, not the messenger. Do you stand by idle when someone attacks the messenger so flagrantly? Do you passively condone open NEAR threats? Nasty bully tactics? Will you stand up for me, and confront the evil that has crept in here? Or is evil only bad at twi, and cute here? It’s deja vu all over again. All you GreaseSpotters who think it’s ok for the children to shilt in your living room may get some on yourseves soon... not mine, from your own.

I have saved this page as evidence.

I do hope those posts are removed tomorrow, the offenders are confronted by ALL GreaseSpotters, especially their best friends here. Now we’ll find out just how many Greasspotters got away from twi with a genuine heart for God, and how many brought the devil with them to soil the carpets here.

I will accept an apology from the offenders if those of you with any integrity are successful in ministering to your own kin here. Let’s see how effective your religion is now.

Now that I’ve assisted some of you all in the derailment of my “own” thread, supposedly on Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching.

It’s time to pull in the reins and get back on the path.

Whohhhhh Betsy! Not that way, THIS Way.

>>>>>>

Come on old girl, I already told you I don’t listen to your Nay’s or your whining. Gidddy UP! Up where Christ sits on the right hand of the Father!

>>>>>

You can Do it, girl! Don’t be afraid. I’m right here for you.

I’ll sing to you, OK?

The Lord knows the Way through the wilderness,

All we have to do is follow.

The Lord knows the Way ......

Hey, what’s that on the horizon? Could that be....HIM!? Maybe!

Full speed, we’re flying IN THE AIR soon to meet HIM.

High Yohhhhhhhhh MASTER A-WAY!!!!!!

***********************************************************

A PFAL’77 STORY

In studying Dr's Last/Lost Teaching we see that the word "master" comes up quite a bit. By looking at his previous usage of this word, how Dr used it in his vocabulary, we can really see some electrifying truths. The big key here is the word “master” and we will eventually see it much deeper than we ever dreamed.

Please let me tell you a story about PFAL'77. I worked at HQ from 1976 to 1978. In the weeks just prior to PFAL'77 an amazing event took place. All the staff got together for lunch every weekday in those days. There was one particular BRC lunch just one week before that class started where Dr's comments were so significant, that I feel a need to type them out.

I've related what I heard at this meeting to a number of people, but I've only run into one person who was actually in attendance, and that's Thomas B. A few months ago I was talking with him on the phone, and when the subject of those lunchroom comments of Dr's came up, he immediately launched into his remembrances of Dr's words. Thomas's recollections were almost exactly the same as mine, as well as his appreciation for the significance of them. This was very encouraging to me.

Thomas has been pretty busy lately, but someday I should call him to help me beef up this story with more detail. Reconstructing past events is no where near as accurate as printed materials or tapes. It's much more sure to consult the record and refresh memory for important things. I have strongly endeavored to not rely on memory as many have erroneously done, but the details of some unrecorded events might be made more solid by some round about ways. For one, an individual's memory may be checked by multiple witness testimony. Plus if there are some traces of the event on record, that can be some further confirmation. So I proceed, albeit on the shaky ground of mere human memory.

The grand purpose of this story is to illuminate some of the background for a teaching of Dr's that I will be talking about soon. This teaching has a rich history, so I'll confine myself here in this post to the topic of the teaching's origins. In my next post we can get into the teaching itself. In all there are four parts to this very important post.

In the early months of 1977 the staff at HQ began to work on various projects to prepare for the PFAL '77 class coming up that summer. Different departments had different items to deal with at differing times. As the class date approached almost all departments had so many extra duties that everyone was expected to work an hour overtime each day, and at no extra pay, of course. We were happy to participate.

It was fun to think we were taking part in the production of a "superior" version of the PFAL class. I had been on staff for about a year by then, and the PFAL'77 prep seemed to me to be somewhat like the Rock of Ages in importance. It was a very big deal to everyone. I especially was looking froward to seeing exactly what Dr might add or change. In those days I thought that there were some non-fatal errors in PFAL, and I wanted to see them corrected in an even better class.

The appearance of 1967 film class, juxtaposed with the disco styles of the day, was becoming embarrassingly obsolete to some. In addition to the often discussed tie-width and hair-wetness fashion factors that seemed to necessitate a redoing of the PFAL film, the newly available medium of video tape was far superior to 16 mm film class in quality. We also figured that new Biblical research to upgrade the class would be a significant step ahead, since ten years of additional learning had taken place since the '67 filming. It was an exciting time to work on staff, as PFAL '77 got closer.

Several weeks before the class our daily overtime grew to two and three hours per day at times. Some people were putting in near 80 hour weeks, depending on their responsibilities.

At lunch one day, in the BRC basement, Dr announced that as part of his preparation for the class he was going to "take" the class for the first time. At that time he had only seen the first half hour of the '67 film class, so in order to prepare for teaching the same material again, Dr set up a schedule to watch the entire film/video class. Every day he'd show up at lunch and tell us which session he was in as he progressed through the class. Some days he did only one session, other days he did only a part.

When Dr completed Session Five he reported to us that he had Christ in him, "the hope of glory" and we all cheered. Word went around that some staffers were doing up a PFAL diploma for Dr, so that he could become an official "PFAL Grad." Everyone was quite excited to see Dr take the class this way. It was a wonderful touch to see this as we all worked hard to prepare for PFAL'77.

Then one day Dr showed up at lunch with a glum face.

I'll do my best here to paraphrase what he said, but I have no direct quotes. I’ll use double-double quotes to indicate this. For a few of Dr's words I can distinctly remember his exact phraseology. For some words I can only remember the gist or the punch his words carried. But his overall mood and message at that pre-PFAL'77 lunchroom talk made such an impression that today it is quite memorable.

The mood Dr conveyed in facial expressions, vocal inflection, body language, and exact spoken words was a huge downer. I had never before seen Dr look or speak so negative. Later that year I saw Dr pretty down one day after Uncle Harry went into the hospital for the second time, just days before his death. That was the only other time I ever saw Dr exhibit such negativity of heart. Oh sure I saw him blow his stack plenty of times, but I mean discouraged or hurt negativity. This lunchroom announcement was drastically different from the previous days of fun PFAL review announcements from Dr.

Dr said something like:

““I have something to say that probably will not please some people, but that they can just renew their minds to it, and learn to live with it.””

I think he even said, or indicated that God had just told him something, and he was not too happy about it. Then he said something like:

““Sorry, but we're going to have to cancel the PFAL'77 class!””

Yikes! Everyone froze in the lunchroom. Did he really say that? This was the question many of us were thinking. How could this be? How could such a great undertaking be scuttled? Was Dr just testing us? Was this something like the way Dr canceled the very first Way Corps, the zero-th Corps? Is Dr punishing us for something we did to fail him in preparation for this class? How could such an investment in people's abundant sharing be thrown away? All these went through my mind, and I think many others too.

So, with that opening statement, Dr REALLY got our attention. He then went on to explain. He said he was in something like session 8 or 9 and that it just hit him like a ton of bricks, that he could never teach that class again!

One near quote I remember is: “That thing moves like greased lightning and I could never keep up with that pace,” he said looking down and shaking his head from side to side saying silently "No, no, no"

He also went on to say that God had taught him some very special things as he was teaching that film class, and that there was no way anyone could replace it or duplicate it. The old film class would just have to do the job.

He said some things about the '67 film class filming as being done by revelation from God, and that there just was no revelation in 1977 from God to try and do it again. Dr left the distinct impression that the whole idea for doing PFAL'77 was of man, and not of God, whereas the '67 class was of God.

Dr basically told us that some people had talked him into doing up a replacement for the film class and that it was not God's idea at all. This was a bit of a shocker to me. I had assumed that it was being done by revelation, and here was Dr saying no, it wasn't.

I know that prior to 1982 when Dr stepped down as president, lots of Dr's top men would at times talk him into things he really didn't want to do. At this BRC lunch I heard him complain of this. Dr's top men had talked him into committing the resources of the ministry for PFAL '77 being a video replacement for the '67 film class.

You could hear a pin drop in that room as Dr related all these things.

Then he said:

““We can still go forth with the Muncie plans and do PFAL'77 as a supplement for grads, but there will never be a replacement for the original film class.””

With these words there was an audible sigh of relief from just about everybody in the lunchroom. I think most of us were keyed in on the first half of that sentence, and we only faintly heard the last half.

An interesting side note: the video tapes they made of PFAL'77 seem to have never surfaced. Just last year MG told me that the only tapes he still wanted for his collection were those PFAL'77 videos. After 1988 I went headlong into intense bootleg tape activity for a full ten years, but the PFAL'77 tapes seemed to have disappeared! Dr gave MG all sorts of access to tapes, more than anyone else, yet he doesn't have these.

So, Dr changed the course of the ship, right there in that lunchroom meeting. He also announced this change in a very dramatic and memorable way. In so doing he highlighted some key remarks of his about that original film class that are useful to our learning today. Specifically, CLONE CLASSES CAN'T CUT IT!

It’s only by mastering what God taught Dr and Dr taught us in writing that we will be able to serve God's Word to others. All attempts I’ve seen or heard of in splinter groups and in the big stump have had relatively minor results. Minor compared to the “good old days.”

I could be wrong about this world-wide, but in my sphere of awareness, there has not been a single grad of any clone classes to rise up to the level of a WOW or a Corps candidate or a committed, serving clergy. All the big leaders are old PFAL grads, the clone grads are not inspired to drop everything and move the Word like Dr inspired his grads. If you know of ONE, please e-mail me..... in a couple years, and tell me your favorite clone grad is still cooking. I’d like to meet him or her.

Back to my story:

A few days later, after the lunchroom announcement, at the next Sunday night service, Dr repeated a few of those same remarks he had made in the BRC lunchroom. For one, he says on tape that re-teaching PFAL is impossible. Those remarks appear in a couple of places on the SNS tape from that evening mixed in with the announcements and in the teaching. It was a great SNS teaching. It is SNS tape #865 from June 12, 1977.

Two years after the lunchroom incident that same SNS teaching was presented in its final written form in the May/June 1979 Way Magazine. It is this magazine article, and it's connections to those lunchroom comments by Dr, and it's connections to Dr's final instructions to master PFAL that I want to bring to your attention. Next, I'll send the teaching.

The title of the teaching is "Masters of the Word."

Agape,

Mike

Looks to me like a classic case of "If you don't like the message, attack the messenger."

So, should I leave? Take a poll?

What's more, Abigail, I sent an e-mail TO YOU, responding to your post as to WHO DO I FELLOWSHIP WITH.

So, let me get this straight... you are trying to snoop around for info on me, you got my ISP and can hack your way to my true identity.

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLP !!! Pawtucket! Mandii help me. Pamsandiego come home, quick.

[This message was edited by Mike on January 04, 2003 at 23:14.]

[This message was edited by Mike on January 04, 2003 at 23:16.]

Dear mj412,

Someday every tear shall be wiped away by him who bled his heart out for us, our brother the lord Jesus Christ. Until that day we can pray for each other when things go wrong. Someday everything will be right.

Dear Mr. E. W. Bullinger,

Thank you for speaking up for me. I tried to find your e-mail address but you kept it private. I did volunteer for all this, and knew from a distance that it would get tough, but once in it I noticed it was a lot tougher than expected.

I’m thankful, though, that in spite of the mindless heckling, some thoughtful conversations do take place at times. You can pray for me, and better yet, e-mail me. I’d love to trade notes with you on mastering the collateral’s, and techniques that yield the most fruit, and such. Once those books are open and the contents become the main topic for an extended time, things start resembling the good old days.. er uh.. I mean the good old days FOR ME and lots of grads before the Eighties, especially back in the early Seventies.

That’s the NINETEEN Seventies I’m talking about. Say, I didn’t mean anything by “good old days,” and to tell you the truth, I get a little sensitive about the word “old” these days myself. You seem to be doing pretty well for someone who’s been around for a while.

By the way, my teacher was a big fan of yours. I think you’d really appreciate how God taught him to go even beyond your material. You were a great comfort to him when people thought HE was crazy about the 4 crucified with Christ, and a ton of other things. You comforted me in a different way, but it was comforting just the same.

Please e-mail me. It’s really cool to see such a mature gentleman such as yourself using a computer. My great, great grandfather, if he were alive today, probably would stayed as far away as possible from new fangled things. Have you ever rode in a jet plane?

Agape,

Mike

Dear GarthP2000,

A few posts above you wrote:

“I got a question for you, if you could find it in your heart to answer a question from this poor infidel. (I've noticed that you haven't answered any of my questions before. I mean, what is it, my breath? )”

Please don’t be offended. It’s not you, it’s me.

I’m swamped with work right now, but that will end soon. I work a very physically demanding job for an old hippie like me, and when I get home I’m usually bushed. Then after reading through all the posts that I want to answer RIGHT NOW gets my head spinning.

Most of my free time these days is either sleeping, reading or writing. Please be patient, and eventually I’ll get to almost everyone, except the crazies, and even a few of them I can relate to being an arch Firesign Theatre fan(atic).

I keep posting that I’m super busy like this, but maybe you missed it. I’ve got a pile of e-mails from GreaseSpotters backlogged, and there are so many posts I really need to answer. Some of these e-mail and post replies require a hour or more, because I want to be careful and thorough. I really do care about all you out there, and my heart is to answer much more than I can just now. I keep trying my best though. I have to pick and choose who needs what the most. You can pray for me that I get these kind of judgement calls right.

Then you wrote:

“Weren't you the guy who, 3-4 years ago, posted on the Trancenet message board about some Corps-like program that you wanted to set up, and you invited folks on Trancenet to take part and join that Corps-like program? And I 'highly suggested' to you that the Trancenet boards weren't exactly the place to go recruiting for your 'Corps' program, because many of the folks there were still smarting from the abuse that they endured under TWI, and that they might turn some of that frustration on you, in no uncertain terms?”

No. Whew! That was an easy answer.

((((pssssssst! Mike! This is your ego speaking. That response was waaaaaaaaay too short. Do something to beef it up, get real detailed and thorough, several long paragraphs, give the guy much more than he asked for. This way you’ll impress him and maybe he’ll start sending you abundant sharing. You could get rich on this sucker. You could even retire! How many window cleaners do you know that can retire? Come on the guy is asking for it. You... er... uh I mean... I can do it. Hit him with both barrels blazing, lots of big 50 cent words. Don’t worry, he’ll never look them up. Listen to me, I’m you ego, I call the shots around here. Don’t you trust me? Look at all I’ve done for me....... hey! Wha.. What the???... no.... NO! DON'T SAY ONLY T-H-A-T!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhnnnnggg;;;::,,,.. . . . . ))))

No. Sorry, Garth. I never went to Transchat and intensely disliked the Corps program and the way they behaved, both innie and outie, after 1986.

Agape,

Mike

Dear mj412,

I’d like to answer you better, but it’s a little difficult. You place me at a slight disadvantage. Could you please tell me you name, or the name you used when we communicated by e-mail? I’ve written to, and had lots of replies from almost a hundred people these past 5 years, so please don’t be offended that I don’t recognize who you are. I mean no offense.

I have done lots and lots of reading here at GreaseSpot lately, and some details blur in my memory, so correct me if I’m wrong. Didn’t you say on some other post that you are, or were in college, and in New York? I know Yew York is a pretty big state, but do you by any chance know a girl named Sandy who lives there?

The reason I ask is because I was corresponding with her some time ago and she stopped answering my e-mails. I feel very concerned about her because she told me things were pretty rough spiritually at her college. That’s why I thought you might know her, because she went to college in New York too, and that kinds increases the odds that you might know her.

She contacted me one day out of the blue. We never knew each other prior to this or had any contact whatsoever, so she introduced herself to me by e-mail. That’s another thing you two have in common, a computer.

It turned out that she had done a Google search on Dr. Wierwille and came up with that old post (now erased) of mine on www.eph320.com about Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching. Her first letter was very abrupt and short. She simply asked about the teaching without any explanation at all. I sensed she was hurting (she later confirmed it) and prayed before I replied.

Anyway, she was pretty upset, so it took a few letters to calm her down a little. I tried my best to let her know I wasn’t going to hurt her like the CES people on her campus that were bugging her, so she said. I think there might have also been another splinter group involved or even that biggest of them, the twi-2 stump.

I told her more about Dr’s last teaching and how it blessed me. She said she had a lot of his books and liked them. We corresponded for a few months and she seemed blessed. I kept on praying for her, sent her my phone number, and thought I had made a new friend.

Then all of a sudden she stopped e-mailing back. I sent one or two short letters (real short, one paragraph, not like my posts) asking her if she was all right, but I heard nothing back. By this time I had finally leaned a few things about wisdom (still more to go though) and figured I’d better back off.

(Sorry alfakat, I had not learned this lesson when I kept sending you stuff, ignoring your silence. I never meant to be a spammer. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?)

So, mj412, the reason I asked you if you knew Sandy is because I’m still praying for her. It hurt my heart many times, how confusing all this ministry stuff is, so I really know how she feels.

There were quite a few times these past 17 or so years that I stayed up all night in bed, unable to sleep, because I was so distressed with the ministry meltdown, and how the adversary had confused us all so much, and how we were all so mean to each other. I had tears, real drippy, wet-my-collar tears on more than one occasion about all this stuff.

So, I really know how she felt as she explained to me how nasty everyone was to her. I really try my best to love my family, and I regarded Sandy as my sister. I only hope she found peace, so I keep praying.

Mj412, even if you don’t know Sandy now, if you should meet her in the future, could you please ask her to e-mail me, or at least pass a message on to me by way of you? I just want to know that she is ok. I am doing my best to see her healed, but a little feedback would help.

Thanks for Understanding,

Mike

Thanks. I appreciate that.

Rafael,

It was refreshing to see that you are listed in the phone book. I’ve been attempting to deal with many leaders for over 15 years who are unlisted, and have insulated themselves in other ways as well. I’ll try calling again some other time.

I only have time now to respond to something I saw you posted most recently, and it’s with a paste from a previously written letter.

You wrote: “The context of that statement was Wierwille teaching people to speak in tongues. I don't think he meant for it to apply to anything else.” referring to one of Dr’s statements corresponding to both the last night of the class and page 116 in “The New, Dynamic Church.”

Let me say first, though, that I REALIZE that Dr’s claims to having received and abundance of revelation do NOT prove that his claims are true. I don’t know why so many think I don’t see that.

What Dr’s claims do prove or demand is something different. His many, many claims like this do effectively eliminate all gray areas in how we should regard him.

Moderates and middle-of-the-roaders, people who think Dr’s material was in the gray area between good and evil, should be challenged by Dr’s extreme assertions. They need to get off the fence and decide which extreme he is in. His claims prove that he was either extremely right or extremely wrong. His claims force us to either totally reject his writings or totally accept them (in quality not quantity). His claims make dwelling in the gray area illogical.

If Dr’s writings fall into the totally evil category (with just enough good to hook people but not really bless them) then the ONLY proper response for one of his former disciples would be a TOTAL purge himself of everything Dr taught and then totally start over in some other camp. This would not only be a monumental task for some of the more entrenched grads, but WHERE to go to get their total re-education in Christianity (notice I didn’t say churchianity here) is even more arduous. This second task, in addition to purging, should severely challenge the wise seeker, because who’s to say he wouldn’t suffer from the “out of the frying pan and into the fire” syndrome.

If this possibility is true, that Dr’s claims were false, then the best response is to throw away BOTH the bathwater AND the baby, and start all over.

This logical consequence of Dr’s claims being false, the need of totally purging is something that I see ALL non-mastering admirer’s of Dr avoiding. These are the gray area people. I see all of CFF, CES, GRR, and other major splinter group leaders totally oblivious to this logical requirement, if it’s the case that Dr’s extreme claims are not true.

I was coming to see this logical requirement in the Nineties, and was moving more and more into fully investigating a total purge for myself. My respect for Dr was steadily declining from a moderate gray view to a more and more evil view. I was aware of the alternative (Dr’s claims being right) but I felt I had already looked deep enough into that possibility during the Seventies and Eighties.

My mental model of how I knew I needed to view Dr, good or evil, was probably only months away from being decided upon when a large body of new data found its way to me, including Dr’s last teaching, including its status of being rather totally lost, and including many more yet undescribed data points.

As I again, more rigorously this time, explored THIS possibility of Dr being totally correct (yet still remembering the limitation of PFALp.83) many of my reasons for accepting the totally evil possibility started evaporating one by one, some immediately, some after a few years. After pondering both possibilities the best I could, I decided to place my bet, stake my whole life of the God-breathed status of his PFAL books addressed to us, his class.

All of life is risk. There’s just as much risk in betting on the other horse.

So, now I’m late for work again, but I had to type out that introduction to my response to your post, Rafael. Yikes! I didn’t think it would take that much time and space, but I’m encoruaged by the fact that cyber paper is relatively free to print on. Maybe that requested English teacher can help me trim things down my wordiness as well as my ego.

**********************************************************

Rafael, you posted above : “The context of that statement was Wierwille teaching people to speak in tongues. I don't think he meant for it to apply to anything else.” referring to one of Dr’s statements corresponding to both the last night of the class and page 116 in “The New, Dynamic Church.”

I disagree, and here’s why:

This passage from "The New, Dynamic Church" is very familiar to all PFAL grads. It is a close re-work, nearly word-for-word, of the last night of the class where Dr led us into tongues. In this passage Dr lets it be known in no uncertain terms that he was God's spokesman. Yet, for those grads who have refused to follow Dr's instructions to master these materials, fading memories have helped muddy Dr's message here into oblivion in their minds.

On page 116 in that "Green Book" Dr writes:

Paul in I Thessalonians 2:13, thanked God that

"when ye received the word of God which ye heard

of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it

is in truth, the word of God." You too must follow

God's truth as told in the Word of God. But if you

think this is just Victor Paul Wierwille writing or

speaking to you, you will never receive. If you know

that what I am saying to you are words which the

Holy Ghost has spoken and is speaking to you by me,

then you too will manifest the greatness of the power

of God. If you will literally do what I ask you, then

you can manifest the fullness of the abundance of

God, the wonderful power of God.

As I have presented this grand "Thus Saith The Lord" statement to grads, almost every one shoots from the hip (and their fading memory) and dismisses it as merely applying to the leading us into tongues, because that's its context. They say that this doesn't apply to the same books Dr told us to master. I've been told that to extend this page reference out to cover more than "tongues leading" is to take it out of context.

We'll have to look deeper into this matter of context.

In previous decades, I often found myself witnessing (or debating) with trinitarians over Jesus Christ being not God. In almost every conversation they would bring up Jesus' words in John 10:30 where he said "I and my Father are one." If you ever find yourself in a similar conversation I suggest that you ask them "Are you taking that statement out of context?" They will almost always insist that they are NOT taking it out of context. That's when you can ask them "Well then, what exactly IS the context?"

With Bibles closed very, very few can answer. They are SURE they're not taking it out of context, yet they have very little idea what the context is! What a deplorable situation. The conversation usually ends as Bibles open and the obvious context reveals that Jesus and the Father stand guard over the sheep as a unified team: "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" is Jesus' job; "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" is the Father's job. That they are "one" in their anti-plucking stance is what the context reveals.

These wrong dividers of the Word rarely go back to check out everything they believe. They trust their memories and wing it. Now I see PFAL grads doing the same with page 116 of the Green Book and many other things we were taught.

I want to challenge you to avoid this pitfall. As masters of the Word God gave to Dr and Dr gave to us, we need to check out EVERYTHING we believe, even the simple stuff like this chapter on how to speak in tongues. We need to carefully read what's written, EVERY WORD.

There are two small simple words in the immediate context of this that stand out to alert the careful mastering student. They are in the passage I quoted above. Before I get into these two words I want to give you a chance to find them. They will amaze you as to what they open up to the diligent workman.

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Hint:

The two critical words I have in mind (that influence the context) from page 116 of the Green Book are in this sentence from that page:

"But if you think this is just Victor Paul Wierwille

writing or speaking to you, you will never receive."

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They are the words "or speaking."

Often I have heard people say, regarding this particular page reference, that it only applies to the leading into tongues, because that's its context. I've been told that to extend this page reference out to cover more than "tongues leading" is to take it out of context.

But why are the words "or speaking" in there? It's a BOOK, and he's writing, not speaking. These two words bring in a broader context. The printed words on 116 were originally used in the Twelfth Session of the class, when Dr led us into tongues. With my own capitalization added, here is what he SPOKE:

“I know that you would like to receive into manifestation the power of the fullness of the holy spirit. I know that you would like to speak the wonderful works of God and magnify God. And so, now, I'm going to help you to manifest the power of the holy spirit, JUST LIKE I'VE HELPED HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF OTHER PEOPLE ACROSS THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD. And there's one thing I want to tell you, and that is that, if you can believe God's Word, and surely you can believe God's Word, FOR OF ALL THE TIMES THAT WE'VE BEEN IN THE DEPTH OF THE GREATNESS OF GOD'S WORD, YOU HAVE SEEN the mathematical exactness, the scientific precision with which it works. And that God's Word is faithful, what He has promised, He is not only willing to perform, but He's able to perform, not only able but willing. And therefore, I can assure you upon the integrity of God's Word, that you will be speaking in tongues the wonderful works of God and magnifying God. I'd like for you just to take your Bible, and what other materials you have, and just lay them to the side. And you just forget about them for the time being, and you just listen to me. Just let me unfold the keys to you, and within the next few minutes, you too will be speaking the wonderful works of God. You know, in Acts, chapter 2, in verse 4, it says: “And they were all filled with the holy spirit ...”They were all filled - nobody got missed, just nobody. And, IN MY CLASSES ON POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING, nobody ever gets missed, because, IF YOU'RE IN THIS CLASS, YOU'VE HEARD THE WORD, you've believed God's Word, God is always faithful. And nobody ever misses, if you'll do exactly what I tell you to do, right down to the minute detail. It's like, in I Thessalonians, chapter 2, verse 13. Remember where the Apostle Paul said: "I thank my God, that, when you received the Word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of man, but as it is in truth, the Word of God. "Now, if you'll be as honest with God as that Word of God says, you too can walk into the greatness of the manifestation of the power of God. But, if you think this is just V.P. Wierwille talking, you'll never get it. But if you know that what I am saying -- it's V.P. Wierwille saying it, but these are words which the Holy Ghost has spoken and is utilizing and speaking to you THROUGH MY MINISTRY AND MY LIFE, then you too will manifest forth the greatness of the power of God. If you will, literally, do what I tell you and ask you to do, and show you why, then you can walk into the greatness of this power, LIKE ALL THE REST OF US HAVE, and manifest forth the greatness of this abundance of God, the wonderful power of God.”

Now I want to repeat the capitalized passages:

"JUST LIKE I'VE HELPED HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS" refers to previous live classes AND other teachings.

"FOR ALL THE TIMES" refers to the entire span of "this" particular film class.

"IN MY CLASSES ON POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING" refers to all previous PFAL classes.

"IF YOU'RE IN THIS CLASS" refers to "this" class .

"THROUGH MY MINISTRY AND MY LIFE" refers to all previous classes as well as other teachings.

"LIKE ALL THE REST OF US HAVE" refers to previous classes.

So, in addition to the leading into tongues, the whole class as well as other teachings of Dr's are a big part of the context of page 116.

That’s why I believe the context of that statement was much broader than merely Dr’s teaching people how and why to speak in tongues. I think he meant for it to apply to much more.

Agape,

Mike

[This message was edited by Mike on January 04, 2003 at 11:12.]

[This message was edited by Mike on January 04, 2003 at 11:33.]

[This message was edited by Mike on January 04, 2003 at 18:04.]

Rafael, here is a paste of an older e-mail I’ve sent to friends responding to SOME of a post of yours above. Then I’m leaving for work.

****************************************************************

In some previous writings I have mentioned page 83 in the PFAL book and a "Thus saith the Lord" statement hidden in some slightly complex grammar. This is my attempt to explain that grammar, and thus reveal what's been on that page all this time.

My goal is to produce a paraphrase equivalent of a sentence on that page. Also, I am particularly focused on attempting to fully incorporate the use of the word “necessarily” that appears in the original sentence. The sentence is:

“Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed.”

Just for simplicity, let’s temporarily remove the word "necessarily" and see what happens. Now we have:

“Not all that Wierwille writes will be God-breathed.”

The sentence almost seems to still say the same thing. It's almost like nothing was altered, but don't believe it. Soon we'll see why "necessarily" was in there.

Practically speaking, if I eat NOT ALL of a pie, then there’s SOME pie left for you. In the sentence under study the phrase "not all" implies "some." Mathematically speaking, the phrase “not all” is equivalent to “some or possibly none.” So, substituting the phrase “some or none” for the phrase “not all” in the sentence we then have:

“Some (or possibly none) that Wierwille writes will be God-breathed.”

This then can be separated out to two possible sentences:

“Some that Wierwille writes will be God-breathed.”

“None that Wierwille writes will be God-breathed.”

Now let’s restore the word "necessarily"

“Some that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed.”

“None that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed.”

The second sentence is rather strained grammar and logic. It also radically contradicts what Dr. wrote on page 34 of the Green Book: “...you will find that every word I have written to you is true.” I believe for these and other reasons it must be rejected in favor of the first sentence.

The first sentence fits (and the second does not) with all that we spiritually sensed when we first took the class. Likewise the first fits with the 1942 audible promise from God. And it fits with the last night of the class when Dr. said:

“...if you're in this class, you've heard the Word, you've

believed God's Word, God is always faithful. And nobody ever

misses, if you'll do exactly what I tell you to do, right

down to the minute detail.

It's like, in I Thessalonians, chapter 2, verse 13. Remember

where the Apostle Paul said: ‘I thank my God, that, when you

received the Word of God which you heard of us, you received it

not as the word of man, but as it is in truth, the Word of God.’

Now, if you'll be as honest with God as that Word of God says,

you too can walk into the greatness of the manifestation of the

power of God. But, if you think this is just V.P. Wierwille

talking, you'll never get it. But if you know that what I am

saying -- it's V.P. Wierwille saying it, but these are words

which the Holy Ghost has spoken and is utilizing and speaking

to you through my ministry and my life, then you too will

manifest forth the greatness of the power of God.”

So, in a nutshell: the use of the word “necessarily” eliminates the possibility of “none” of Dr’s writings being God-breathed. Recently I came up with a paraphrase of the original page 83 sentence that incorporates this perspective.

The context of page 83 is God-breathed words are trustworthy; man-breathed words are not. We know that Jesus Christ said that he did not speak forth HIS OWN untrustworthy, man-breathed words, although he was tempted to. He only spoke forth the words his Father told him to speak. He was the only one to achieve this TOTAL purity of all words issued.

Here's the paraphrase:

“Even MY own writings... (and I was commissioned by God’s

audible voice in 1942 to bring forth God-taught explanations

of the Bible, and because of that SOME of my writings are not

really my own, but are REALLY God-breathed)... but even MY own

writings, when they’re merely my own, are not trustworthy like

God's are.”

The word “necessarily” implies the contents of the above parenthesis. The original sentence on page 83 says that even someone who is given the job, by God, to teach the Word “like it hasn't been known since the first century” is going to have words, his own words, that fall short of the perfection of God.

Therefore, because not all, but just SOME of what Dr. Wierwille wrote is NECESSARILY God-breathed, the next step is identifying WHICH of his writings ARE God-breathed.

Hint: Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching contains the MOST IMPORTANT thing he could want to tell us.

God bless you.

Mike

Steve Lortz wrote: "Mike - My question is this: do you believe that everything Wierwille committed to paper in the PFAL and collateral books is God-breathed?"

YES! But I don't yet regard that simple "yes" as the ultimate answer. It's the best I have now, though. The reason it's not that simple with the books is because we have proofreaders' oversights and other such minor middlemen (even non-grad printers) that require us look a little deeper IN A SMALL NUMBER OF MINOR CASES to see what Dr put down on his paper. The paper you have in your hands is ever so SLIGHTLY different.

Dr wrote in page 34 of "The New Dynamic Church" that if we renew our minds then we will see that every word he wrote TO US (PFAL students) is true. When that page 34 statement is rightly divided (I'm still working on that) you will find your ultimate answer there.

Sporadic Post #1

Great Caesar’s Ghost! Rafael, you’re a cruel taskmaster. You wrote: “Further, you had PLENTY of time to post several responses to my comments...”

You can’t read my mind, as you admitted, BUT you ALSO can’t read my schedule. Can’t you give me any alternative to (a) put up and (b) shut up?

Don’t you remember how Dr taught us that sometimes a thorny verse may be on his desk for 15 years before it gets resolved? Your impatience is the cause for you to jump to concussions. (sp intentional) I’m real happy with the MASSIVE fit I see in the PFAL books as I endeavor to master them. The puny list of apparent errors is not going to sink my artios ship. I’m used to bow spray, which is all that list is.

I am NOT a master yet. It may take years. You can resort to inaccurate ridicule all you want, but remember you are doingn it before the whole world. Accurate ridicule is a little different.

OK, I saw something I need to correct. (first mistake I made all millenium)

Rafael, you wrote “You continue to mention the "in fact" statement in Jesus Christ is not God. There is no "in fact" statement in Jesus Christ is Not God, not in the relevant page, not in the page before, not in the page after. What are you talking about?”

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse MEEE!!!

I should have written “THE fact” instead of “IN fact” which is smack dab in the middle of page 94. Maybe you were looking with shillt colored glasses.

This is a great demonstration of how someone bent on destroying can’t appreciate what’s being built. Again, and from my old hippie background, I can’t help but remind you “The Whole World Is Watching!”

Now, what was I saying about not posting...? Maybe I should stop READING the forums for a while too?

ps Rafael, I hope you got my tongue in cheek opening of this post. It was just for you, but you may be too young to recognize it. “Great Caesar’s Ghost!” was the favorite expletive of Perry White, the editor of the “Daily Planet” and Clark Kent’s boss in Superman. I would SOOOO like to get on your good side, and be buddies. We can agree to disagree can’t we? Please e-mail me with your phone number, or receive mine. I’d like us to be able to converse without the harsh ASCII limitations and internet flaming atmosphere.

[This message was edited by Mike on January 03, 2003 at 9:21.]

[This message was edited by Mike on January 03, 2003 at 9:29.]

[This message was edited by Mike on January 03, 2003 at 20:49.]

Well, I just woke up and am off to work soon. I only saw the above posts as much as can be seen by counting how many PgDn’s are required to fly through them. Rafael, you picture was recognizable in the blur, and I apologize greatly for not responding just now. I’m still interested in a phone conversation that may cut through a lot of heart issues, thus expediting our logic issues. I really do admire your tenacity. If you’re interested, please e-mail me.

With my present work schedule at maximum, and about 10 e-mails in line that deserve thoughtful responses, I can predict that my accumulated backlog of work for post responses will only grow larger as the days roll on. There are still posts from 4 days ago I want to respond to. So far it feels like I’m back in college and taking a double load of English composition classes. Remember? I said that English Comp was my weak suit? Well now I have a term paper due every day!

This is a little like a Twilight Zone episode I find myself in, one of the humorous ones. An old friend calls these things “twilight zonettes.” It is fun, but I’m beginning to feel like my biological PgDn key is stuck on repeat.

Soooo, it looks like you folks are on you own in the forums for a while. I know that my silence may look like resignation to defeat for those who savor a cheap victory, but time will tell.

I need to shift to e-mail responding for a while to clear that backlog. If I do any more posting in the next week it may only be sporadic pick-and-choose responses. You can bet my desire to respond to ALL is as great as my confidence in handling past posts.

For those of you who can’t relate to that I’ll translate: You can bet my desire to respond to ALL is as great as my ARROGANCE in handling past posts.

My business has a predictable lull approaching in the next months, so I’ll be back in force soon. Save some popcorn.

Rafael wrote above:

“My problem is that a vision does little to verify a discussion with the Almighty, but since we're parsing words here, if one were to give VPW EVERY SINGLE benefit of the doubt, one would have to leave room for the "vision interpretation."

What's funny is, why didn't anyone (Mike) mention this before?”

Rafael, my physical inability to answer all questions, and in an immediate fashion, may appear like a logical inability to answer. I have physical limitations of time and energy, and you know it, so why do you ask that question?

I agree with you that a vision does little to verify a discussion with the Almighty.

MY problem is that a substantiating weather report ALSO would do little to verify a discussion with the Almighty.

I do now, finally after much delay, give Dr every benefit of the doubt, but I don’t do so by nit picking about trivialities like weather reports. My way of giving him every benefit of the doubt is to OBEY his final instructions, especially if the adversary saw so fit to hide them form ALL of us. For each different splinter group (twi-2 included), and for many different individuals the adversary has supplied a tailored excuse to help us all disregard Dr’s instructions to master the PFAL books. That is what this thread originated to expose. I think I have succeeded in that point.

You and I are doing things in the opposite order. You want all the trivial details to line up perfectly in your sight and THEN you’ll believe and start mastering. I am suggesting that you try it reversed. FIRST master the books, and then these details will start lining up all, and eventually will vanish as we work them properly. These are two vastly different strategies. It reminds me greatly of Jesus’ conversation with Thomas.

I do agree with you on the possibility of the vision. I also do agree with you that this has not the proof-weight desire. But unlike you, I also feel that a substantiating 60 year old weather report would also fail to yield the weight of proof I would want to base my life on.

I looked at your top ten apparent contradictions in PFAL, and almost all are quite familiar to me. I disagree with how you handle them. As I master the books I see these items begin to wither. It takes time, as we were taught. It takes being aware of the many keys Dr gave us in the class, and applying them very diligently. I don’t believe you have properly worked these items, so they remain contradictions in your mind and in the minds of other non-masters.

In another post I showed you a few principles that I am currently applying to the “all without distinction” problem. I did not give an exhaustive listing of the principles a PFAL master would be aware of. Until you master PFAL and utilize all these principles you do not have the ammunition to shoot down these contradictions, and they will continue to appear as actual.

For example, let me lay out a few more principles. You mentioned that PFAL page 65 contradicts JCNG page 94 and you left it at that. Did you know that the phrase “all with distinction” also appears in Vol. IV GMWD page 241? Did you include it in your analysis?

If we do not include every place where the topic at hand comes up, our research is incomplete. If we conclude something is an “actual error” but failed to include all items worthy of scrutiny, then the error is in our conclusion. It’s only an apparent error still.

Just in case you DID see the page 241 occurrence, hold on to your hat. There’s still more. This next item is an example of what I mentioned in an earlier post as a SLIGHT handicap relatively recent grads may suffer. I can not blame you for not having been around earlier, so I wont. By working together as a body this kind of minor handicap is easily overcome.

At PFAL ’77 this “all” problem came up. Ever since I first took the class I was somewhat pained by the “all without distinction” phrase in the class video and book at the time. It seemed strained or something. I could see how a slight stretch in language would render the “all without distinction” intelligible, HOWEVER at the time I favored the phrase “all WITH distinction” as much clearer. So did a lot of other people. When the PFAL ’77 class approached this point in the syllabus, I listened very attentively to see how Dr would handle it.

Now here’s where I too have a slight handicap: my memory. Tapes of PFAL’77 seem to have disappeared and I have not been able to refresh my memory of that exact point in the class, EVEN THOUGH I feel my memory of it feels perfect. I’ve seen much scientific discussion regarding memory problems from my previously mentioned exposure to a bunch of brain scientists. It’s not a medical problem for me in any way (yet), but I don’t trust my own memory much anyway, nor any one else’s, and that’s one reason I rely on the tape/print record. Here, with the PFAL ’77 occurrence of the “all problem” I don’t have access to the record.

At the time of the class I was very alert and interested in this one thing, so I think what I remember is pretty good. Maybe someone out there remembers it too and can help verify.

When Dr got to this part in the class he said: “all.............WITH distinction.” There was a huge pause before the word “with,” and then a very deliberate pronunciation of the rest of the phrase.” So, to a non-mastering student such as myself, I “concluded” that Dr had corrected an error in the PFAL book. I was ecstatic! I was very much opposed to thinking of these books as God-breathed then, and I wanted to see an error correction.

There’s still more, but let’s tally the results:

PFAL book – all withOUT distinction

JCNG book – all with distinction

GMWD book – all with distinction

PFAL’77 class- all with distinction

Kinda looks like the PFAL book loses, doesn’t it? I try to remember that appearances can be deceiving, sometimes VERY deceiving. Well, to an obedient mastering student it is NOT OVER. There’s still more.

A few of Dr’s books went through formal edition changes. The PFAL book did not. There were, however many different “printings” of that book., and there are several changes made in that book in one or more of the printings. A “printing” can be like an edition change except the changes don’t affect pagination, and they involve only a few words.

The PFAL book went through several printings before Dr died where a few things were changed. For instance on page 4, on the bottom line, the second word was changed from “His” to “God’s” and the word “Jew” was changed to “Judean” throughout. What’s interesting, and still a mystery to me, is that unlike the PFAL’77 change, and unlike the wording in GMWD and JCNG, the “all without distinction” on PFAL page 65 was NOT changed. Why?

There was the opportunity to change it, but it was not. Many people knew of the “problem” but it was left there unchanged in the PFAL book. This is why I look at things like the “in fact” tip off in JCNG which I mentioned in an earlier post, and several others I mentioned, and several others I did not mention. I want to know why this “error” was deliberately left in there.

Rafael, I went through all this to demonstrate how I feel these apparent contradictions you’ve collected are not well worked yet. I am NOT a master of this material, but I do recognize the great need to refrain from jumping to the conclusion that they are actual errors. We have a lot of work to do.

I have found that as I do this work, apparent errors EVENTUALLY vanish. I don’t think all the work is done yet for your list. They look obvious as errors to you, but your knowledge of the subject, and your mastery of the books in general is incomplete. It does not matter to me ANY MORE how obvious they look. Appearances are deceiving. I used to think “error” but not any more. I’ve seen too may apparent errors in my mind vanish as I obey God and the spokesman He selected to teach us. I refuse to be talked out of it again.

My own inadequacies in mastering the material forbid me to trust my own feeling when I see these apparent errors. I have seen so many human errors committed by absolutely all us PFAL non-master students, whether we be Corps, clergy, or PhD’s. The leadership that ran things after Dr stepped down have totally proven themselves to be incompetent non-masters of PFAL to me. This includes all the splinter groups and twi. They have proven to be totally disobedient to their teacher. Their handling of nearly everything that went on since 1982 has been so botched that I can only conclude that they all are amateurs LIKE ME at handling spiritual matters, or worse than me, they are reprobate.

Until you get serious about mastering those books I believe you too are a mere amateur at understanding what God taught Dr and Dr taught us. I don’t care how many apparent errors you compile. You haven’t earned that kind of respect from me that Dr did. ALL of Dr’s leaders have thrown away the respect I once had for them. I’m sticking with the books. As I find more answers to these things I will share them with people who can receive them, people who are meekly mastering PFAL.

Mark, I read it, understood it, and disagreed with it. My limiting myself to just Dr is relatively recent, and it has been very invigorating, contrary to your theoretical, at-a-distance speculations about my life. I tried it your way for many years, and that method is over for me.

I started out thinking that Dr did not get this abundance of revelation. Many years of various types of evidence and guidance convinced me otherwise. The PFAL page 83 passage did not whittle down my expectations of the volume of Dr’s revelations, it limited it as it grew. It was not a conclusion as you make it out.

Therefore, I regarded the first part of your quote as not worthy of attention compared to the last sentence, which I focused on and tried to show you why I thought it was dead wrong.

You see, Mark, you are trusting in your own abilities. You trust in your ability to pick and choose from sources here, reject other things there. Much like the process that Dr did, except you do it with your 5-sense brain, Dr did it by believing God’s promise to him in 1942. That same promise is NOT addressed to me or to you or to anyone but Dr, because there’s no need for God to guide more than one into “My Word like it has not been known since the first century.” God did it once, and it’s done.

If a Bible student wants God’s Word this accurate, like it has not been known since the first century, yet rejects it when he comes across Dr’s written revelation of this abundance of truth, then he’d reject it if God revealed it to him directly. It shouldn’t matter HOW a student gets the revelation, whether via 5-senses reading of PFAL or by direct revelation. It’s the message that matters, not the delivery method. A true seeker will recognize God’s Word when he finally finds PFAL. He may get talked out of it, for a time, but if he keeps his desire for truth he will return.

Mark, I did the same thing: think I could be my own cosmic editor, and hash out the truth from my 5-senses ability. So have many over the centuries. No one has gone all the way with that attitude.

[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 9:30.]

TheEvan also wrote about 17 posts above on Jan 1, at 18:16 hours:

"Do you really believe there will ever be a man to do Jesus' works and greater in this world?"

I think the man who first spoke it. Jesus Christ, believed it, so I try my best to believe it too. This was a revelation from God to Jesus, so God “believed” it too.

However, the last word in your sentence is intriguing. That's why I'm posting this separate from the rest of my reply to your one post. From what I understand it IS available, yet we don't see anyone who has done it, not for two thousand years.

Dr often said that of this Word "someday SOMEBODY'S going to believe this." (my paraphrase) We also know that God waited patiently for 4000 years before somebody would believe, LITERALLY believe in the First Coming of His Son. Dr often longed out loud for someone who would finally LITERALLY believe what he was teaching. He stressed that mere agreeing, or mental assent was not what he longed for.

I see the great obstacles to us all IN THIS WORLD in believing this promise to do all that Jesus did. I also see the great hand of guidance God put into PFAL to bring us to the point of FINALLY believing to do this and greater.

This topic is verging on the great treasures someone yesterday challenged me to produce. This is it. As we master PFAL we are seeing great new dimensions to many aspects of the Return of Christ that we never, ever expected to see. There's a treasure in the unmastered PFAL books that teach us things about the Return that I want to get into. As we finish the God-breathed status of Dr's books, the next thing to ask ourselves is WHY? Why did God give these revelations to Dr at this time? What's so special about this time, above all other eras.

TheEvan wrote about 17 posts above on Jan 1, at 18:16 hours:

“Mike, one of your main premises, shared with Wierwille of course, is that the scriptures as we have them are notoriously unreliable. My, how convenient. They are unreliable and you need ME (hose-monster Wierwille) to tell you what theyr eally mean. This is the essence of it, isn't it?”

No. First of all God gave the revelation to Dr who put it in plain English, thus freeing us plowboys of having to trust the scholarly world of Greek geeks.

TheEvan also wrote:

“First of all, Wierwille knew Nothing of what he spoke in Greek.

Second of all, Dr OFTEN admitted his lack of great Greek understanding. He had help from people and from God. This was never a secret.

TheEvan also wrote:

“Men like Tyndale (one of my personal heroes) gave their lives willingly so that "the ploughboy" could have the scriptures to understand for himself.”

As for men like Tyndale and many others, I am extremely thankful. Mano of them their best and many profited, but not totally. Tyndale was near the beginning of a long Godly process, mixed in with setbacks from the devil, that finally ENDED with God’s revelations to Dr to put together what was in scattered pieces here and there. I also believe Dr got some standard, regular, classic, traditional type revelations. He also made some mistakes, but these were mostly purged by the time the ink was applied to the presses. I say “mostly’ because we were taught that “proofreaders’ oversights, and printers’ errors were to be expected, but not fatally.

TheEvan also wrote:

“This in an age when the scriptures were interpreted to the layman only by those qualified.”

Sounds like today, in traditional churchianity. Sounds like what you WANT to be current: us non-Greek people totally dependant on Greek scholars.

Who do I choose? ONE of the reasons I easily choose to believe that it is Dr who God selected as middleman/spokesman is because he was so extremely successful in getting us ALL to SIT.

I’ve seen many charismatic churches where only a tiny fraction of the people SIT, and then it’s usually indecent and out of order, or they don’t know they have control over the on/off switch, or they do it without interpretation. Even if there were a group without these types of problems, you could bet money they would be crippled in some area: trinity, law, water baptism, praying to the dead, etc. Then, in some very, very rare cases, where ALL these problems were solved, such a group would be very small and never able to propagate their most pure doctrine. They’d die out long before WOW could become a reality.

The PFAL class was made available far and wide, and thousands were thus blessed. Yes, we died out, temporarily, but grads all over are getting sick of the past 20 years worth of broken cisterns, and are again seeking a solution. The answer is in coming back to this Word God taught Dr and Dr taught us.

Mark Sanguinetti wrote about 40 posts above at 3:30am:

"Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit... Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles."

Mark, Let's examine your conclusion here. You're comparing ALL of VPW's writings with only SOME of Paul's writings, the ones that have survived the centuries.

There may very well have been writings of Paul, earlier in his ministry that were quite flawed. The surviving epistles came relatively late in his ministry, I THINK. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Even if I am wrong I know FOR SURE that any writings Paul did prior to meeting his master on the road to Damascus were not God-breathed, like his term papers for Gamaliel. Same with Dr's NON-God-breathed writings.

I remember Dr mentioning on two separate occasions that if he had his way we would never have a chance to read "The Dilemma of the Foreign Missions in India" and then he said much the same thing about a book from around 1952 called something like "Victory in Christ." I also remember seeing a class photo from a very early PFAL class before it had that name. There was a large banner stretched behind all the students proclaiming "The Gifts of the Spirit Class."

Both Paul and Dr wrote letters and memos and notes and grocery lists or such like that were of their own natural 5-senses understanding. I can say with total certainty that "Not all that Paul wrote was necessarily God-breathed." Thank God for those writings of his that WERE God breathed. Thank God for Dr's God-breathed writings as well. The former got relatively lost or buried or tattered. The later we have in relatively pristine pure form. Thank God!

Tell me honestly, if this were true, just IF it really is true.... can you imagine this? What if it were true that we were given not only a great way to cut through a lot of the 'tatterations" of Paul's writings with the PFAL keys, but also as a SURPRISE bonus, God slipped FRESH new perfect writings into our bookcases that are His reformatting of His own perfect Word? Come on now, wouldn't that be WONDERFUL!? If it were true? I'm not asking you to believe it. I'm asking you to IMAGINE it. Are you willing to even consider it long enough to see how wonderful it would be? I can.

Mark also wrote:

"Mike, in past years I studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously. You should see my bible. There are a few sections of scripture in my old bible that are filled with notes like you probably have never seen before."

The standard of mastery that Dr laid out in the tape/print record is very explicit. I'm saving that for a fresh thread later. Here's a preview from segment 5 of the '79 Advanced Class:

I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on

"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you

reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost

to quote this line for line. You should have mastered

this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.

If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it

to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,

in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy

spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in

and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my

people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,

there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.

Mark also wrote:

"In studying and writing these notes I found that much of the technical biblical work of VP Wierwille actually came from E.W. Bullinger."

Hey, I don't mind if PART of the strategy God employed was to give Dr revelation to look at Bullinger (and not another researcher similar to Bullinger) and utilize this, this, and this passage, but NOT this passage. That's still legitimate revelation.

Written revelation doesn't have to be all divine dictation. In fact, in the Thessalonians University of Life, Dr TWICE mentions in covering verse 1:1 for both of these epistles, that there is a reason why there are three names mentioned as authors: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy. At these two points Dr teaches that written revelation is usually NOT divine dictation, but first the revelation to Paul was discussed between the three, and then later put into written form. In I Peter 1:20-21 we see the WRITTEN scripture mentioned in verse 20 as coming from a process where (next verse) holy men of God SPAKE.

It's easy to see that God could have utilized Bullinger’s work to get Dr to the point of hearing a revelation of “Vic, Bullinger got it right here.” Additionally, these selected passages of Bullinger may have ALSO been given by revelation, or maybe only portions of them. There's lots of permutations that can be involved.

To simply cite similarities, even CLOSE similarities between Dr's and Bullinger's writings on some points in no way disqualifies Dr's from being given by revelation.

Then Mark wrote:

"...and just go to the scriptures and let them speak for themselves."

We don't HAVE those scriptures to go to Mark, only scholar processed regurgitations. As I mentioned in my post "Feelings" these approximations of the original scriptures are ESSENTIAL for the beginning student, but if a PFAL student wants to go farther on to "all nine all the time" these approximations wont do it. They haven't worked for that kind the power, the full power of all the things Jesus Christ did, for anyone in 2000 years.

Unfortunately, it's also true that no PFAL grads have done it either. But not all the chips are in yet. PFAL is a very recent revelation. We grads have been stalled for some 20 years now. Hardly any PFAL grads ever heard of Dr's dying last words, his final instructions to master the PFAL books. Even the grads who did hear have been talked out of them, or have flagrantly disobeyed them, or have only done some dabbling. Some dabbled more than others, but NONE have mastered it according to Dr's use of the word "master." Soon we can see more of Dr's previous usages of this word and see what he meant by "master" better. From Dr's Advanced Class quote above, we see in the last sentence that in 1979 "even ALL the grads of the Advanced Class” had not mastered the "holy Spirit" book enough, even those who had lots of Bible notes and who had "studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously." It's both vigor AND rigor that are needed.

[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 0:02.]

[This message was edited by Mike on January 02, 2003 at 0:03.]

Thanks Vert. Does anyone have a Valium?

NOW the deleted post is back. Maybe THAT was a glitch. Maybe they put it back..

My original post accidently ommitted the letters "Spott" when I meant to type "GreaseSpoters" . Maybe my editing temporarily deleted it.

However the "trigger words" message came up twice earlier as mentioned. I'm new here, please excuse my technical errors. It really gave me a feeling I was being monitored. If that's the case it would be proper to be so informed. If I'm just being paranoid it's only because everyone is out to get me. (joke)

Lifted Up

Thank you SOOOO much for posting that data on how the weather can work. I could never have typed it out so briefly. I knew that transients like that can happen, but I never witnessed them first hand. Weather can have fluctuations like the ocean can have rogue waves.

So, why didn't some of you GreaseSpotters ever think of this? Are you ashamed?

This is the second time I posted this. It got deleted. Also twice this morning, when I went into edit some PUNCTUATION in previous posts, I got, instead of an acceptance, something else.

It said my edit was being reviewed by the administration for "one or more trigger words." IT WAS PUNCTUATION I had submitted.

AM I BEING CENSORED? I tried to sene an e-mail to cyberlarson but it came back unopened.