templelady

Abi,

What I have as problem with is the idea that having a personality disorder-whether treated or not- means that someone is automatically incapable of holding gainful employment. It has become a carte blanc to deny responsibility for one's own life

I've heard it all, how corporate America is doing it, How the other guy is doing it, how somehow the cheaters reasons for cheating are better reasons than any other cheaters reasons--

Bottom Line is they are cheating and lying.

Don't like the system--start working for changes --put some of that energy you use to run from agency to church, to charities looking for a free handout, while doing nothing to help yourself to work, to make changes

We aren't talking about the legitimately disabled here, the elderly, the too young--We are talking about able bodied adults who would rather spend their time and energy in getting the rest of us to subsidize them, whether through tax dollars or our donations to church and charity, rather than finding a job and supporting themselves

If I sound annoyed it probably is because every day I work with two groups of people

those who are down and out and whose desire is to get back in the game of life--who work, day labor and odd jobs, who pound the pavement in Alaska winters looking for a job-even a minimum wage job all for the purpose of getting back on their feet

those who are down and out and whose idea is to do as little as possible to change it. Whose first question is Can I get rental assistance? and where do I apply for food stamps? Who are indignant when we won't be a reference and say they have no money and can't work. Who spend their nights sitting up playing video games and annoying their roommates and then roll out of bed at noon followed by two hours of watching TV. Only to cry when their rent is due "I can't find a job-no one will hire me."

Granted there are people out there who need help who aren't getting it --and that needs to be addressed

But the reason it is so hard to make headway is because of all the people in that second group I deal with.

They are the ones who tar everyone with that nasty brush of "welfare mentality"

talk about a life of quiet desparation --I think that pretty well describes hers--her poor baby girl.

Only One Dalmation??????

Awesome

that's a big Atta BOy for you Ron!

Potato

I don't think I was clear enough in my previous posts about spousal rape

If you are pounding with your fists and yelling stop and he continues then yes, it is rape

It is the element of force that is at issue

If you say stop and he continues and you give him a push and he gets the message, albeit a bit late, and stops--that is not rape

I look back at TWI, even though I got out before the 90's it was still pretty oppressive in my day, and think don't these twits realize that the only way you are EVER going to get people to listen to your ideas regarding politics religion, marriage, child rearing etc etc, is if you are friends first?? Friends that have a genuine concern and care for each other as individuals?? And even if someone just comes to a meeting and you don't know them they have to feel that you care about them as an individual not just another tally mark.

TWI just never got that--they regarded friendship as a tool to garner more followers rather than realizing that people bonded by true friendship first are much more likely to bond naturally in other areas such as religion

Wow, I know a published author

how fun

congratulations

There IS a life OUTSIDE of your past, but you must breakout of this constant over analysis of what happened during your time in twi and ces.

A life outside of TWI

Analysis of what happened in TWI

ARE NOT necessarily mutually exclusive

.

.

You join TWI, or any group for that matter

Because there is a spot/spots in your heart that needs filling

You stay because the group either fills the spot/spots or you perceive that there is a possibility to fill the spot/spots

You leave when it becomes apparent that it isn't filling that spot/spots and never will fill that spot/spots

excellent post Chatty

Took years to even like being around people ( I mean when I wasn't partying)

Took even more years to figure out that people liked being around me

Only in the last 5 or so years do I really enjoy people and not feel that I am some sort of disgrace that should be thankful to be allowed in polite society

HE that has NO doubts, not a trickle, not a whisper, not a millisecond, not a scintilla of doubt will succeed

So you just went spiritual enough to be able to hold onto the power and make it work for you!?

Sorry I'm late getting back to this thread

2 weeks ago I had an earache not in the inner ear but an inflammation in the outer canal. Used to get them all the time as a kid excruciating pain. SO on Sunday after services I found two of the brethren and they anointed my head with oil and laid hands on me and prayed to Heavenly Father in the name of His son Jesus Christ for my ear to be healed. And as I prayed silently with them I felt this "pop" in my ear and fluid draining out and the pain was gone.

Heavenly Father did that thru the power of the Holy Ghost. When I asked for that blessing I did so because I KNEW that by having a blessing the ear would stop aching.

Neither I or the brethren held on to the power

Neither I or the brethren made it work for me

that is Heavenly Fathers job and He does it very well

It's what I posted earlier

when we get the notion that it is us our faith in self that is responsible that is when we fail

It Is Faith in Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ that counts

TWI lead us away from that truth

TWi wanted us to fail--because then they had their hooks in --telling is more classes, more ABS, More blessing leadership would make it work

WE are by our mortal natures powerless

any power that works in us does so by the grace and will of Heavenly Father Not us

Godspeed Johnny the best to you and yours

You ever up Anchorage way give me a holler

and if down the road you decide to stop by the cafe and I'm not off gallivanting I'll treat you to lemonade and Pizza-

Happiest of BDays my friend

Not so many years ago of a woman was raped she went through hell--everything from the kind of clothes she wore, did she drink, was she a virgin when she got married, making her look like a slut was the usual ploy.

So laws were enacted which helped put the blame on the rapist not the victim

But as almost anything that is a reaction too rather than a thought out action --- the baby went out with the bath water

Dr Phil has a saying about If you do the action you own the consequence

If you get naked with another naked person

indulge in heavy foreplay

and actually start the "deed" all on a willing and consensual level

and then change your mind

it would be nice if the other person respected that change of mind

but whether they do or not--YOU HAVE NOT BEEN RAPED

If you get naked with another naked person

indulge in heavy foreplay

all on a willing and consensual level

and then change your mind

If force was used

ie hitting, choking, pinning down, pulling you down when you got up

THEN ITS RAPE

If you get naked with another naked person

indulge in heavy foreplay

all on a willing and consensual level

and then change your mind

but do nothing to remove yourself from the situation

ie continue to lie there

THEN ITS NOT RAPE

OF course this is all my opinion

Alaska prices are a bit high

but the basics, if I am being good and sticking to my self proscribed diet

Smart Start cereal 4.29 walmart

qt 2% milk 2.59 walmart

Slim fast 5.99 walmart

Lo mein noodles 4.99 safeway

onion 1.99 safeway

mushrooms 2.99 safeway

2 pkg frozen Asian veggies 6.18 safeway

1 lb chicken or pork 7.59 (put in pork price since it is higher) safeway

Diet Pepsi 5.98 walmart

1 qt ice cream 3.59 walmart

Total 46.18

the lo mein and other ingredients I make into a giant pot of stir fry that lasts the week

slim fast for lunch

cereal for breakfast

Sometimes I make a rice mixture

Sometimes beans and rice

Have a nice big crock pot for making stews

My downfall is going out to eat. I read a survey a few years back that said Alaskans (read Anchorites) go out more to eat that in any other town. And I love Chinese and Indian--I digress

I would say $60 a week on actual take home and fix groceries would be a huge splurge for me

Since Diabetics runs in my birth family --my birth mom died at 64 from it and her dad my grandfather lost his leg to it--I have cut out what I call "grocery fast food", frozen pizza, banquet fried chicken, chicken patties, hot pockets, burritos, all lunch meats, spaghettios, mac and cheese--not because diabetics can't eat all of these things but because weight is a real struggle for me-- It's lose it now or face diabetes in the not too distant future

It helps that my friend PAul watches what he eats too so we kind of monitor other when we go out

happy birthday hope it is everything you want and so richly deserve

love Ya

Got to thinking maybe it would help if I posted actual examples of the behaviors that drive me crazy

Brilliant woman IQ in the 180's up and quits her high paying job because she feels it is unreasonable of her supervisor to demand she get projects done on schedule. Claims that she can't handle the stress. Has depression issues --refuses to take medication because she doesn't believe in it. Goes back to school for more advanced mathematics. Finds school too stressful so quits which ends the Pell grants. Finally her husband who has severe Health issues is forced to work to support them both because welfare etc. demands that she get a job or get a doctor's reason why she can't work which she can't get because she refuses to go to the doctor

Is she sick? yes, could she do something to alleviate the problem? --you bet--Is her refusal to do so grounds for withholding aid??

20 something able bodied guy been in and out of treatment for alcohol. Has a job, gets place to live with first months rent paid for by the state, 2 weeks later up and quits job because he didn't like the hours and the boss got on his case for coming to work hung over, and applies for rent assistance and food stamps.

Do we owe him Aid???

And this addiction is a disease thing

Cancer is a disease

People who are addicts make the decision to get dressed, make the decision to go to the liquor store or the bar, make the decisions to purchase alcohol, make the decision to drink the same. YOU can make the decision not to do the above--in fact just sitting in your chair takes a lot less effort that doing the above. This whole "I'm sick" routine makes me sick--I used coke and crack to the tune of $17,000 in three months, I used because it gave me a group to belong to, I used because I liked the high, I used because I was mad at the world. And I quit by making the decision not to buy any more, not to party with those who were using. Was it easy? HE-- NO did I slip up? SEVERAL Times _ but the decision to quit was made with the same brain as the decision to start - If I can do it--anyone can--Believe me-I am in no way extraordinary

Woman in her 40's Gets a church to pay for her housing--claims she is too ill too work--with what no one is sure--but has the energy to everyday run to various agencies for free food, and clothes apply to various agencies for financial aid--all the while commuting from one end of town to the other on the bus Yet She is TOO Sick to go to an office and sit behind a desk for eight Hours???????

DO we owe her aid????

This is just the tip of what I have seen in the last 15 years and continue to see on a daily basis

I have no desire to see anyone cold, hungry or going without medical care through no fault of their own

But When are we going to get back to the value that makes people accountable not only for the results of their cations but the consequences of same????????

Generally undiagnosed or untreated mental illness is involved with many of these cases.

And here is where I respectfully disagree Chas

Because I think that people with what is called "Personality Disorders" often have far more control that they are willing to exercise

It's kind of which came first the chicken or the egg

My viewpoint is that if you are able to "hold it together" and come across in a manner that permits you to manipulate others to get what you want.

Then you are conscious of your action and able to control same.

But then I have trouble with the whole concept of personality disorder because it is completely subjective both in its diagnosis and treatment

This is what I meant when I said we have made gods of the mental health professionals

IN the old days it was called being lazy, shiftless and a few others I won't post

IMO Looking at life differently, being eccentric or even wacky IS NOT a justification for behaving badly and not supporting oneself--And Maybe just Maybe we need to get back to that viewpoint.

Until that reason is addressed, the person will never make better choices

The people I am speaking about have made the conscious choice to continue their lifestyle. The reason is quite, frankly, irrelevant. After you are an adult you have two choices ---to move forward with your life or not. You are in charge, unless there is a mental defect. if you choose to wallow in past wrongs, If you choose to behave as a child, If you choose to claim, bad parenting, the devil , economic status whatever to justify your behavior --that is your choice. You can choose to stop the justification in the same manner you chose to embrace the justification .

And Don't tell me it can't be done, I grew up with Paranoid Schizophrenic mother, who was protected from her actions, I've been a coke addict -which I kicked with no Treatment-I quit smoking again Cold turkey, I've been homeless, and jobless I have survived abuse etc etc. And I come out of it by making the decision to make better choices then doing it. Did I have friends yes, God Most definitely, Assistance yes--but ultimately I was the one who made the decision to change my behaviors and then followed through.

As a society we have made Gods of the mental health business and left the concept of free agency and self responsibility on the doorstep. "I can't", "Somebody has to help me", "It's not my fault", "My parents.........(fill in the blank)" Enough already--we need to face the fact that some people will never step up to the plate and take responsibility for themselves--the question then becomes just when do we as a society have an obligation to fund their misanthropic lifestyles

What person of sound mind and body would actively choose to be like this

People with mental handicaps lacking the intelligent or thought processing abilities to make these decisions are not what I am talking about.

As to the others -there are hundreds of people --many protected and enabled by family members- who choose to keep drinking, eating, drugging, not follow doctors orders, not take their medications, not make lifestyle changes-- knowing that their actions will be detrimental-- who continue to do so --with the attitude that they are entitled to live their lives as they please because "it's my life" "it's a free country". Then when the house of cards they have so shakily built starts to tumble around their ears they expect others including the welfare system to take care of them but still refuse to do anything to help themselves. Much as the woman you tried to help

What as a society do we owe these people??

Because this is the true moral conundrum of the system.

The able bodied we can make work

Those who fraudulently obtain assistance we cut off

but this category poses tremendous ethical, and moral conundrums

How do we address those issues is my question.

NOw if "his" was a mile high.....................

Well that takes a load off my mind

If she is in the hands of professionals then they will know if any programs that are there to meet her needs.

Of course it should go without saying that the woman in question needs to be willing to honestly and forthrightly comply with any and all suggestions and requests of said professionals. Otherwise said woman will soon find herself back in the very spot she apparently is complaining about and have NO ONE to blame but herself

NOW back to my earlier question

What do we do with those who are chronic abusers of drugs etc and health problems who have reached the stage where, because of the abuse of their bodies on the physical front ,will probably never be able to hold a job and in some cases care for themselves but refuse to even attempt to stop their addictions ior bad lifestyle choices?