mdvaden

You folks did notice the context of the house I referred to? That $20,000 cost is referring to the 15 years which was the time frame of example.

Well, I'm in Washington County of Oregon. Our $200,000 home (was 179,000 4 years ago) has taxes at $2700 a year. So, let me cut that in half, at $1350 per year. That's $20,250 in 15 years. Yeah, so I was wrong. I must have been off by more than $200

An interesting thought came to mind. But first, I don't critique PFAL much, because I find the first stage of it quite solid. But suppose I doubted it. How could I doubt or critique it, for it contains virtually every key by which I study truth. Figures of speech. Knowing that punctuation is added. Multiple administrations. Jesus was a man. Spirits influence. What a manifestation is. Context. Looking up words and where they are used. Realizing that words can be added. And the biggest head start of all - you don't believe it because Dr. Wierwille said it. Didn't he bring up that one? But I'm curious, how many of you could critique PFAL had you never taken it, or, not received that same basic chunk of research keys from elsewhere. Would you have had the bootstraps to take the task?

Wayfer_Not. Godspeed. Well.. yes a "N" ending "y" is the branch coordinator. Or was. Knee has been making it a bit difficult to get around. You well describe the coordinators of the state (think Vancouver, WA in in the OR limb). Nobody gets confronted about mortage here anymore. Maybe a minor concerned conversation amongst closer believers. But since people on the right hand, the left hand, and any other hand are financing houses, it's a bit useless to say anything about it. Not everybody will finance, but a larger proportion are - possibly the more part. We have no need to. My arrangement is through my earthly family for the house we are in. I got tired of renting and leasing in which case I was buying the other house for someone and paying their taxes without much room at all for modifying a house to fit our needs. One thing about buying, the promise is a two way agreement. And in general, the value of the loan is backed by the value of the house. It's probably not ideal for people stretching out 30 year loans. I feel that the greater bondage for us in renting was not even the investment part near as much as control over the property and immediate environment. Due to our family thing. I don't pay too much attention to total costs. But let's see, wouldn't a $100,000 home cost about $180,000 in final payments after 15 years. Some real estate sites have the calculation thing. Now that home would also require about $20,000 in taxes too. Can't neglect that. Rent does not see that on top. It's paid from the rent money source though. But we would need to lease a house at $1500 if it was to house our family and home based business. So that's $270,000 over 15 years. I believe it's ideal to buy with cash. But not every person succeeds to believe to pay cash of that magnitude. I'm just headed down that route. Not sure when I'll get there, but I will.

That's an interesting last post. I had a choice lately. Have my children take TWI latest foundational class, or take an alternative. It was rather interesting the first time through (me, not them). I'd compare it to the small top tool box of a mechanics set when you go to Sears. Dr. Wierwille - criticize all you want - gave a class that was comparable to the massive lowere tool box with the upper one with both filled full of tools. Yeah, maybe a screwdriver got bent, and a drill bit snapped. but 98% of the tools were there. So... This week, we are doing a class "on" PFAL for our entire family. I've sat through Dr.Wierwilles class about 30 times. Just in my first couple of years, I worked the Word several hours a night and about 20 hours each weekend. Then I still studied a lot all my other years. I have not stopped. So I can teach that class. And that's my choice. One thing though - Dr. Wierwille taught that stuff so many times, that I will not likely deviate from what he taught. Best to follow the example. Any exclusion is minor. For example, the verse about 2 agreeing toughing anything on earth. That verse is specifically in the context of confrontation and witnesses. Like if there was a murder, if the witness of two agreed and symphonized - that's they way it's handled. It will be that way with God because it's the standard He set in His Word in the Old Testament. But that one minor element is inconsequential to the whole. I'm sticking to the template for now. Interesting, I plan to share what I'm doing with the people I fellowship with. Not much for behind hidden doors in my life.

Glad my son built both of mine with the high quality AMD processors. And what a difference 2 x 512 memory cards makes. The biggest difference I saw from one computer to the next of the 2 new ones, was better performance by adding a superior video card with a nice chunk of memory. I wish I did both with transparent sides. The second one has a transparent side and the blue lit fans work nicely as a soft nightlight. The guts don't impress me, but the light is nice. It also is easy to tell when the dust needs removal.

I think I see what your are trying to say. But may I add...for some of us, those were grand days of joy and hard work with great fruit. The reason why, was that all those things were not ideal for "me" but they were awesome for "us". As you wrote though...those are not the only ways. One part where I depart from your idea, is the last paragraph. If I was confused in life, in or out of the Way, it was primarily because I chose to be confused. In most cases, I had the truth at my fingertips and the ability to know. But I chose to be confused, chose to "take on faith" what people said. In addition, it was generally my choice to accept something off kilter and not go to the Word with people that had influence. It's nice to see you have an interest in helping people and listening. That's a fine quality to preserve.

Are we sure about that? In English, Kingdom stems from a meaning; a reign of a king. A man can be a king, but does he have the reign? In addition, the Greek behind "kingdom" means the "reign" part more-so than the king part if I read the books right. Is that to say that every poverty stricken Christian with sickness may claim they are more than a conquerer? If that condition is also victorious, then is there no need to rise higher to victory? THIS MAY BE THE MOST INTERESTING FRAGMENT of the whole script above. What did he mean? And no answer. In other words, from reviewing Dr. Wierwille's class and teaching plus several thousand hours in the scriptures, I too found a few minor discrepencies. But I realized that in the main contexts, most of what Dr. Wierwille taught was very reasonalble logic as long as people distinguished between grammar and symantics amd largely "idealism". Even Jesus Christ taught in the realm of innacurcy from a technical and scriptural point of view. He used a parable to illustrate someone with consciousness in the grave trying to send a message up to the living. (Actually, and this is in my writings on figures of speech; that's about the only use of the figure fable in the scripture.) What Jesus stated for teaching purposes - grammatically - was unsubstantiated. No verse, no principle. So as a teacher, he took responsibility to speak in a way that technically was "wrong" to bring listeners up to par with God's will. That's probably the greatest reason that many people get into trying to find discrepencies with Dr. Wierwille's writings. First, it's likely the best he knew to do. Second, allowing license to bend technicality with "idealism" to teach; then most of his teaching is fairly darn accurate. If someone worked as hard to identify a figure, or ideal to give Dr. Wierwille the benefit of the doubt, the results would be much different. But most critics I've heard and read, always push the "envelope" to the extreme of technicality to try and prove something. Many times inserting their conclusion as superior. So consider that - even Jesus Christ technically was inacurate, to teach the truth. Now how would you go about critiquing that? There are only two paths. Scratch and claw to tear him down and point to so-called accuracies, or, figure out how to show the overall profit of where he was headed. If it was Jesus, would you have taken a crack at him for that, or supported him?

For some reason, I feel a bit hesitant to post specific names on the forum of those leaders. But I will say this - when I refered positive sense, to state coordinators - that context - I can certify that they were not here in the 80s or at any other time. I've been here with TWI since 1983 and my wife was here before that. A separate topic; as I think about TWI or other people that were affiliated by TWI; it's amazing how many lives changed course one way or the other from the efforts of a few individuals (meaning Dr. Wierwille and friends).

Belle... Thanks for the concern. I am aware of the open thing - maybe not monitoring, but these days, I don't put anything on the internet that I'd want to hide. If you use Google search window and enter "Mario Vaden" or "mdvaden" you will find...well...let me say there are references in the hundreds from here to China. One thing, it will be evident that I'm not on this forum to seek a group, nor to leave a group. I think my main reasons for posting here will fall into two aspects: a. speak out an opinion or thought b. let my name get around and someone I knew will be aware of where I am One thing is very notable for me: at least my wife was marked and avoided for a year or two for no cause. This made me realize that we may not be the only people that were marked and avoided for no reason. I can't name another, but I can't discard the possibility, either. Most people that went through what we did probably would never desire to return. Oddly, we did. And the main reason was the believers that treate us with respect and had concern for our lives. So I am open minded - not within doctrinal challenge - but in that some brothers and sisters may have been knocked down previously. I niether assume they were, or that they were not. But here I am, and if anyone knows me and wants to say hello, great. An interesting side-note: Suppose someone monitored this forum and said something to me. Well, I may be the first to the punch of unvieling it. You are right. I am bold and outspoken. But there is the other side of the coin. We were rock solid supporters of the Way. I made a bad decision, but my wife was marked for supporting me. In fact, she helped me solidify my weakness. By the time we got back, the entire issue could not be swept under the rug. Believers of TWI in Portland - even abroad - had clear exposed awareness that we would never have been marked except for going to seek cousel and advice. So, our marking was a heavy blow on the willingness of other believers to share with leadership. That means if someone does not like who I am talking to, and where I talk to - what are they really going to do about it? I am not on this forum or horticulture forums either to draw disciples or force disciples. So if I get marked an avoided or whatever - whoever will be instigating it will cognizant of the impact it will have. Our last marking had more than a ripple effect. A second, if not appropriate, would have less than value for the household. I must share this though; the local coordinator of Oregon, and his wife are outstanding individuals. They are refreshing to be around. They really can keep the interest of children too, unlike anything I've seen in a while. My favorite teachers are the ones that keep the attention of our full family. Young or old.

I just found this forum this week. First - let me say this - I still visit Way fellowhips, but I am outspoken and make my own decisions. There can be people both in the Way, and out of the Way, that have a good place in their heart. We were marked and avoided for over a year, but I knew not every Way person intended that for us. In response, we knew it would be wrong to condemn, criticize and avoid the entire group, when some in that fold still have a heart for people. I will neither avoid all who were evicted, or chose, to leave TWI. But regardless, whoever I will talk with; it will be with those whose lips utter speech like the fellowship that once drew me to believers, God and his Word. Finally, after 5 years of seeking, I have found one person that was evicted or marked from the Way. A good man, that I hope remains faithful to the friendship we knew. Part of that quest involved this forum and other sites crossing my computer screen, and so, crossing my thoughts and awareness. I found many of the discussions very interesting - interesting about what some people dwell on. In 1983, when I first learned enough truth to help others, I was too busy speaking the truth and relishing in the greatness of God. It was barely in my thoughts to take effort to criticize the CHURCH in Beaverton, Oregon, where I went from age 4 to age 16, only to learn next to nothing. Once I learned truth and keys to access God's will, what good would it do to spend countless hours documenting, scavenging and "speaking" about the old church. You can tell what people dwell on in the efforts and thinking by what dominates their speech and writing. You know, the "old fart days" of the 50s and 60s may have been different, but I hear the believers really had love and zeal for the Word and fellowship together. An excitement. And with minimal criticism or animosity. Where did it go? I see a few main categories these days: 1. Regular church invironment like I left years ago. 2. The Way Int. where people of all kinds attend, yet with restricted impact and some disagreement withing. 3. Off-shoots of The Way that network and function to a degree. 4. Ex-way that talk to others and research The Way. Oddly, neither group really has that burning passion that I caught the tail end of and hear existed before my exposure to truth. Well, I'll cap the post here. If my link is not in my signature, it's got to be in my profile. So you know who I am, and you know where I'm at.