mdvaden

Actually, M D Vaden has not been posting for three reasons. 1. gscafe is an okay place to visit, but it lacks class in general. I participate on up to 20 forums during the year, and gscafe, overall is the most heavy - a lot of old laundry laying around. It's fairly noticeable at the first exposure. Maybe the old dogs in here get used to it. But, maybe some people need to get away from the same old story for a few months and come back for a fresh perspective. Me... I'm just not around this much negative demotional conversation. Take the Oregon landscape board or the landscapers association here for example. Nobody at any of those meetings spends much time at all talking about who they think is bad in the industry. The newsletters primarily focus on positive pruductive information. And it's obvious at the first visit - first exposure - and continually thereafter. 2. I bought an animation program that I've been fiddling with for several days. 3. Finally, I've got a figures of speech and studies pages intitiated and linked from my articles page. So when you really get down to it - I have a lot of fun and positive stuff to do, including moderating a pruning forum for a Pacific NW gardening site. Last week, I noticed that I had 400 posts on an arborist forum after 2 years. When I looked in here, it was amazing that some people have 4000 posts by their name. Seeing how this forum mainly goes over the same basic topics, I can't imagine posting more than about 4 more times in 2005. I figure, about all I can say is the facts. What I believe, how well things are going for me, and where I stand. Other than that, posting would become like a broken record. Anyway, most of you have been hospitable, so I wish you well until next time, whenever that may be. Landscape season is kicking into gear, so I may be off forums a lot anyhow. I may even drop moderating for the one - I already left a subtle message last month. Godspeed. PS - THE FOLLOWING POSTS ILLUSTRATE : - )

No, I'm not mixing. It's likely you read my posted replies, and if you did, you will be aware I know there are two separate aspects and ideas here. It's not like any one person on the forum has an exclusive right to discuss multiple issues. So what you said is nothing new to me. Is it new to you? Did your read all my posts in this thread intirely. If so, then it should not be news that I made a distinction between a set of keys to walking by the spirit and the quality of a believer that would walk by the spirit. It still changes little. It's a rare day an individual is walking by the spirit when violating the qualities I mentioned or others of that nature.

Yes. Eons. In respect to what is available compared to biblical transitions, it's eons. Jesus Christ's ministy after the holy spirit descended like a dove until he ascended was far less than 5 years, but look at the transition, teaching and outreach that occured. In Acts, the Word moved all over "Asia" - a portion of the world in the space of less than 3 years. So when we evaluate or bring up the bygone effects of a person whose administrative control has vanished several years ago or more, that's a story getting gray hair. At that age of story, I tend ot jump a bit further and just read about Dale Carnegie, General Yeager or Lewis and Clark from the book Undaunted Courage.

Yes, the one's typically in a list. Many good ones in the list. Sometimes those overshadow plain common sense living a clean edifying Christian lifestyle. I do like the record about Samuel where God keeps repeating to him. It could have been years longer to read that section had it not been taught to me.

Wow. Stress. Thats' sad to hear. We don't see any stress. So you are saying that in the Way International fellowship you attend right now, there is stess on you to do that stuff? You said "LCM" Do you mean the previous clergy from eons ago? That LCM? I've forgotten most of anything he said. It's rare to even hear his name anymore let alone what he said. About the only recording I have with him is the Athletes of the Spirit video in our overstock cabinet. Didn't really want to oust the recording.

OutandAbout posted that... That is a very cool thing - keys to walking by the spirit. In one way of looking at it; there may be dozens of keys. And when we look around so-called Christians, those that profess to be spiritual, those keys - maybe call them qualities - seem very hard to find. For example: *Speech with grace. *A word fitly spoken. *Seeking not the higher seat, but the lower. *All things done to edification. *Seeking not her (his) own. *Rejoiceth not in iniquity. *Vaunteth not. *Turneth wrath with a soft answer. *Stirreth not strife as a wrathful man. *Is iron sharpening iron. *Not hasty in words (having more hope than a fool). *Uttereth not thier entire mind (but is wise). It's hard to imagine a Christian walking by the spirit without those keys to living. Take the "stirreth strife" one. Some people specialize in keeping negatives and problems and sins and shortcomings stirred. All the stuff they can accumulate, even the facts; they make sure it's in clear view and doesn't settle into the dust. That's the trademark of that particular nature of individual. The grace in speech one is fairly easy to spot, or not. That involves ettiquette as well as edifying speech.

Nope. Not required reading. I believe it's been mentioned twice within our fellowship since it's been up and running. Once was in reference to something that was on it, more so than the general fact that the site was there. It's one of the various things the ministry has available for people to pick and choose from. In our case, we dropped buying two way magazine subscriptions, or three, about 5 years ago. It seems it was suggested for husband and wife to have their own copies years back, but we just utilize the one subscription which is plenty for our needs. For years now, I don't recall anyone in our branch talking about multiple subscriptions or required reading lists. Did you find a transscript about "required" stuff, or is that just a guesstimation? All I know is life is easier and easier because our family just keeps choosing what we want to have available to ourself. If I've run late on Sunday Service subscription payment, I never see any kind of memo inserted anymore telling me how to do it better. It's simply up to me. I pay and I receive. Or I don't and that's the way it is.

A Skyrider quote... Myself, I don't believe in "insulation" in any portion of service or fellowship... FROM EZEKIEL 8 Ezekiel 8:7-17 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall. 8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall : and when I had digged in the wall , behold a door. 9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. 10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about. 11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up. 12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth. 13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. 14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

This was off Thomas Heller's post... Actually, I don't operate according to one verse only for a witness, verification or standard? Do you? Anyhow, there is more in the word, including the old testament reference for diligently inquiring. That involves more than witnesses. The witnesses is one standard the word set forth. But "diligently inquired" will overlap with letting the "peace of God rule". And that's going to mean that each situation's diligent inquiry will be unique. One thing it probably won't mean is believing anonymous witness over the internet.

Many people on this forum appear to declare that they once believed what they now dismantle into parts the hold to, and parts they correct. If you are like that - believed teaching and practices 10 years ago, 20 years ago, but different now; will you change again? If that set of shoes fits you, then years back, you may have been convinced your were right. And now, believe differently - that you are more right now, and were more wrong then. Decieved then, but in-the-know now. Should that be the case, or close, do you ever wonder if 5 years will pass, and you will look back on today, as today you look back on "yesterday" (the other years)??

This thread is part of a big picture on these forums. I get the impression that a few people respected VPW but that many people thought he had something sneaky up his sleeve. Best I can tell, 98% of his class is correct. A vast majority. Maybe it seems like a lot of error because if he covered a 1000 verses and 2000 comments, even 50 aspects pointed out by people in a contradictive way would seem like a lot if that portion was rehearsed again, and again, and again. My curiousity lies less in where people disagreed because that can't amount to too big of a mountain. But how many people believe he was an energized minister for God with a pure-hearted ministry? Because, I gather from the Word that Apollos was quite a man, yet needed some doctrinal correction - expounding more clearly. In the aftermath of his teaching, I wonder what people dwelt on - his errors, or just moved on. There's at least two ways to go after a man's teachings. One thing must be made clear though, from where I'm at. Since 1983, I've heard reams and scores of complaints and accusations against Dr. Wierwille. But really, I never saw any evidence of someone proving ACCORDING TO THE WORD that he was corrupt in any way. The Word does have a standard and verses about how to verify something bad, but also yet about how and why to conceal certain kinds of bad.

Do you guys get this Dr. Laura that counsels people over the radio? Is that just here in Oregon, or farther away? She is very smart, and has a lot of good principle. What stood out one day, was a certain conversation. She told a caller that it was foolish to counsel the person or advise them based off talking to that one individual, without having another person involved. She said basically stated it was not possible to handle a 2 person problem with only one side of the story. I suppose it's like determining that money is genuine without examining all the aspects. After a couple of weeks of listening to the show, it hit me, most of this lady's counsel is about mulitiple person problems; giving advice to one person with only that person's side of the story. Do you have anything like that in your area, and what do you think about that form of counseling?

You tell me. Today, what is being taught in TWI? I'm not going to say it's right or wrong, or how much I agree with or not. For example, I can't criticize the Catholic church, because honestly, I have not stepped foot in their door. For all I know, they can be teaching the truth and changed. I doubt it, but yet, I would put myself in a very embarrassing situation to criticize them. Some one might ask me "M_ario, why do say that about them?" And I, would stutter and say, you're right. I don't like them, or go where they are at. But to be honest and real, I have no idea what they are teaching currently. I mean, if someone has a seat in there to witness, or tape recorded teachings, then groovy. I guess they heard enough to form an opinion. If not - then it's reasonalble to acknowledge lack of awareness about TWI doctrine and that you just disagree.

Have you seen the post I put in the thread about Jesus teaching with words that were not true nor backed by scripture? Now I forget what thread it was in. Seems it was in a PFAL related one. But I was curious how people would have talked about or responded to Jesus teaching phrases that were false and unbiblical to get people to rise up in knowledge. So about Jesus, he also maintained and protected and used the system he was in for a long time. What's the response to Jesus Christ for operating that principle? What's the response to Samuel, or even his mother for handing over to that particular spiritual household. Bigger subject. And most people just nibble at what they think are the safe and useful parts of this kind of stuff. I just never see them bring those verses and a lot more into the picture. There is no subject we see that is new. What's interesting is how far into the depths the discussions go. What verses get included? What verses get avoided?

Yes, rascal... Good train of thought to progress on. People died now, during and before anyone in TWI. So it's not TWI's doctrine that steals, kills and destroys. It's the devil's doctrine that steals kills and destroys. That's a good subject to view in light of the difference between a counterfiet and genuine. Not referring to TWI, you or the Catholics, etc.. The devil's doctrine kills. People also died fighing in WW II. Was the command or job wrong? So the results can't be used to justify or condemn the means. Is it false because the Word says so? Or is it false because people got consequences? And who is to judge whether or not their complicated thoughts contributed something we cannot see. That's why I like the level of the Word better than the level of judging denomination.

The thing that allowed that was anyone that carried it out. I wouldn't even compare the two - but even if it were so, Hiltler's ranks were infiltrated by people that were different. Some tried to save Jews. More than one tried to kill Hitler. Are you aware of the bomb that Hitler's officer brought into the meeting, then left it? Hitler lived, but was injured. So Hilter and his henchmen were not identical to all the people in the ranks and what they individually carried out. That's why an organization is less in measure than what the "ranks" choose to do. The one thing that may affect that is if the organization causes a departure where the two have no association. I don't think there is a comparison. In the old testament and the new, there are verses where the religious organization - people that were organized, were confronted and changed their mode of operation and believing. If the wineskin theory were slapped on that or TWI like a catch phrase to make a point, the we may as well toss out the Word of God that shows how entire organized groups can do a turnaround. So, the wineskin theory, if misapplied is false doctrine. That specific term is used with precision in a certain context in a point in history. It has uses, but limited with no margin for error. An appropriate use of old wineskin terminology would be appropriate to trying to squeeze the ways of one Godly administration entirely into another. Like not speaking in tongues in this administration because the old testament Word and days lacked that manifestation on an individual basis.

I really enjoyed the movie Schindler's list. It illustrated an excellent point. By the end of the movie, it was clear that if it took every ounce of extra money to help people, and if that money would go to that cause, then that's a high cause. Shifting that concept to the church and money or tithes: if believers had the same attitude within any Christian group or denomination, the overseers would never need to ask the people for tithes or teach them encouraging purpose for tithes. They may never need bring it up except maybe AS in the old testament where too much giving was produced. A believer with a "Schindler" like focus and care probably would be so concerned with giving, and teaching, that talk about it would be overwhelmed and dwarfed by the lifestyle and action.

I'm breaking from estimates and arborist reports for a few moments...so I'll hit on one piece of the pie for now: In my sphere of exposure - Yes, for a fact. (meaning I can today say that about that point in time then). There is TWI technically 3 members with hired staff, legally recognized. Anyone else associated is also referred to as TWI. The two are not identical Word and spiritually wise. There is overlap in a way of speaking, whether now or at one point in time. It's available for sections of the body of Christ with or without a legal entity organization to walk the Word and manifest holy spirit. So - aside from any good or bad that I did not know about in the administrative part of TWI - my sphere of recognition and influence was the west branch of Portland, Oregon. Fellowship was sweet. We talked about the Word for hours. I was never told to study, if anything, me and others would have to be told to study less because we loved reading the Word so much. People regularly came to fellowship, parties and restaurants and had fun. No one was made to stay. Some people visited once. Many hung out with us. Usually - if outside criticism did not affect new people, they like having a good time. I loved doing setup and helping with classes. It was a blast. And I'm not the only one. One of the first fellowships I was in grew so fast, that I volunteered to break off and coordinate. Within a year or so, we split into three because of the new people that came. We were all friends and lived life together. It was positive, refreshing and we had limited negative exposure to many things that may or may not have existed. NOW...In the old testament...Psalms I recall, David makes a statement about recalling the greatness of good times and fellowship of believers in an earlier time. So I know that'a at least one man of God that the Word displays as relishing in a known and preserved thought of past fruitful fellowship. EDIT TO ADD: Now today, I don't think it's the same overall. But, what I realize, is that any group of likeminded believers (EVEN WITHIN TWI) can function as fruitfully and prosperously if they make the decision to do so. I have no legal membership nor employment papers with the Way. So I, and any other person in our fellowship can function freely according to the written word, the manifestations and what we desre to do. No one is stopping me. Right now, Portland at least, since that's my area of awareness, is far different from how some people paint TWI to be. Now, if there is religion - that's that person's fault. Take finances. I outwardly speak my mind on that. Guess who is still here? Me. I talk about finances with other believers - maybe a bit different. It's not exactly being done in a closet. Guess who is still here? Us. One key - if we believe different in an area, we are not antagonistic about it. Maybe some people will need several years to come around to a concept. So why do damage if it's avoidable. Look at healing. God can enable any healing. Yet some people may go for years without getting healed. Why? I don't know. But no sense to beat them over the head about what they have difficulty believing. And like I said, if any decide to be religious, but don't persecute me, how can I spread bitter words? My fellowship coordinator knows full well I work the word different in finances and a few other things, but we are likeminded on many, many things like: a. when I teach, I don't press into an area that is different. and not because I'm pressured to. I guarantee you, if I wanted to teach something newly different this week, I'd go ahead and do it. the verses I pick are entirely my choice. and I am teaching this week, as several times this year. b. what we agree on we enjoy. c. what we differ on, we don't blackball or start a campaign against each other. So, honestly, it's not the way "I" would like it, but it's a myriad of levels better than the picture painted by people that have no view of the scenery. A blind man can't paint the grand canyon or blade of grass he can't see. Niether can someone evaluate and explain about people's lives of which they have no immediate knowledge; the behavior of which they cannot observe change or continuance.

I was going to reply "how could I not" but I suppose that's possible. But yes. As for the tithe - it's one of those yes / no things. If I was teaching it, I'd approach it different. Dr. Wierwille got people to the same basic goal and it was to their benefit if they did it for God. First, God can give us more than we can handle on the tithe alone. No need to exceed it for just financial increase. The tithe is supposed to handle that. The Word shows that it is available for leadership to live within the tithe. But I believe we can add above if we like, or if there is a special need, according to what Paul wrote. Once and again to his need. The old testament...let me look at is this way first...just common horse sense tells us that if an overseer is to dominate his or her life serving God's people in a capacity beyond just producing products or services, that person needs food, shelter and clothing. We should just out of kindness and love pay and support their need without a commandment. That common sense spans all time. To care for our neighbor never needed a written verse for it to be true or a need. Now, the deal is...the Word teaches that what we ask in prayer believing, we can recieve. And people that believe God should not have to be asked to tithe. As a believers, I should already strive to believe that God will meet my need...and, simultaneously, if I'm not an illogical and selfish brat, I will want to kindly share my wealth with believers that minister in a capacity that's burdensome if they have to work a secular job with it. And that is not a burden on me, because God has taught I can receive more than I can recieve. So why not give some of it away anyway since it's more than I can receive? So, if I really am believing, then my natural reaction will be that I am also tithing. The equality is not from a mathematical standpoint, but practically and figuratively it may as well be. So as minor as the point is, I'd say Dr. Wierwille conveyed the right intent of God's will. For me, I'd just teach it in a different fashion. Also, what amazes me, and I wish I had every bank statement from the last 20 years (but what for, I know it) - whenever I tithed my proserity was peaked and when I backed off, the prosperity dipped and problems rose. But the statements are useless. No point. Instead of people expecting to be proved that the tithe should be done, they should arrange their thoughts to care for people and and others that serve. Then they would just share out of kindness and common sense.

Keywords, good strategy. "splinter groups" - sounds like an explosion doesn't it?

This digital camera thing seems to keep people standing at the displays talking to salesmen more than any other product I can think of. I understand the wait to shoot again thing. I love my Canon S1 ls even though it's a bit basic. Love the x10 zoom and video it does. I saw a x7 zoom Canon I'd consider, but I may hold out solid for a x10 to x12 zoom minimum on the second camera. Especially after experiencing what can be captured. Apparently, lens quality is one of the most overlooked and least discussed subjects in digital photography amongst the general user.

I've never found one, but is there a forum where people share about religious or biblical groups where the coordinators or clergy used to be with The Way? It's unimaginable that every offshoot believes the same thing. It would be interesting to see how they compare each other's success and doctrine. I was wondering how they might handle teaching, encouragement, confrontation, restoration, new light. How they handle conflicts and overcome them. Both within, and between groups.

Here's what I would like to add... I don't know if you have the spare time or not, but this is the way it is: If it ain't done right, get in there and change it. I don't like the government situration much. But I applied to be on the licensing board for Oregon's landscape contractors - one of seven people appointed by the Governor to that task. So, it's not my cup of tea, but I have made a difference. Even if in one big area. Here, to do full arboriculture - tree planting and pruning, it would take a license with the landscape board for the planting end and oddly, another license with the builders board. There is legislation right now, already to hearing, to move all tree services to the landscape board eliminating a need for a second license and it would combine the communication of the entire industry. Half their problems are from working independently. I am one of the rare certified arborists that is also a certified landscape technician. Take it one step more rare, I do full size landscape plans as a designer. The arborist guys think their knowledge is not landscaping. And vice versa. Even on our board, one member said it's two sciences. I spoke up and said it's identicle. You have to know how to prune a tree to select one for a spot. You must prune one at installation. So...that whole potential transfer, likely to succeed, probably would not have happened if I did not go on the board. I introduced it. I got word out so another aborist could get on the landscape board. There are so many problems in government and schools because believing people don't volunteer and get involved and pay their dues in what affects them. Similarly, many groups that work aware of each other, but quite independently, can increase problems by lack of coordinated effort. And maybe you don't have the time, or he, or she, or they, but still, there is another he or she or them you may encourage to step up to the task. By the way, this is my 6th year of my second 3 year term. And I will enjoy the change.

Wafer Not... In over 20 years, I, as others have probably heard every version of a calamity that could be described. Just as some people fabricated myth about me, it could be done in reverse. So if I don't experience it, and can't sit with the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses in person, I won't believe something for certain. That's the Words standard - at the mouth of two or three witnesses. And if it's true, but old news, it may be relevant or not. But one thing you wrote has me curious...really curious. Okay, we can agree, that many people are gone from TWI. Many have had their reasons or made a choice to leave. Anyone reading this...anyone...was there a point on staff at TWI or in the TWI fellowship structure that (when) you truly felt blessed? Was there a time when you felt nurtured? Loved? Encouraged? Do you believe it was a "system" that changed it for you? And, you don't have to answer this, but did you dish out the negatives that you think you were the recipient of? Few problems ever permeate every crevice. Did you feel you noticed a difference where percieved problems ended as far as progression from one person to another? One department to another?

Well...had to add this edit...I'm referring here to UncleHairy's post a bit ago. I keep forgetting a post can pop between. I'll need to use the quote things more. Well, since TWI is not full to capacity - pletho - of false teachers, nor was pletho with false teachers, we can discount many people out of that equation. TWI is different from The Way. The latter is described as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the more abundant life.... You identified the "TWI", which focuses on 3 individual members, the primary number of members at any time. Possibly inclusive are employees if we take that into account. One primary member I was taught by was Dr. Wierwille. Another member I met with in person and exchanged correspondence with was Dr. Donald Wierwille. I never found contamination in that man's ministry that I think God would be ashamed of. So, rather than focus on an entire group of members, I'd find it safer to specifically identify the exact one's that fit the mold. Suppose a plane has 300 passengers. If 299 are terrorists, was that a flight of terrorists? I believe it's best to say the plane had 299 terrorists on it. Suppose it had 1 terrorist. Was that a flight of terrorists. Not in my book. I'd say it was a flight with 1 terrorist on it. So for me, I can't grasp the concept of a general one label fits all.