i apologize for not responding in detail...i actually have a ton of stuff on my plate
and must go install a book shelf i built and donated for a library
(my brother Aaron and I even cut and milled the wood...I am glad to be done, though..whew)
but i want to see if i can attempt to see if i catch the essence of what you are saying and respond to it in essence as well...even though i am obviously only touching a few aspects of this complex subject
i believe the internal and external views are equally valid and worth endless volumes
but also, that each can be viewed as collective versus individual as well
i will even go as far as to say that these views are NOT something we must gain
but rather something we come to unconsciously avoid and/or get addicted to and/or become numb to
for example.. how some people avoid their own interior as if it was a demon
and some avoid the exterior as if it was a demon
and some avoid isolation as if it was a demon
and some avoid relationships as if it was a demon
most ideally, we should include all views
not only in doctrinal discussion, but in present living life
one i think scripture testifies of, is how dangerous and destructive it is for a lot of people who have not examined their own inner selves anywhere near the depth and degree of those in the Bible (and elsewhere), yet crusading (christian, atheist, muslim, wiccan, or otherwise) to change the interior opinions of others
for me, its not "what religion does is?"
but "who is doing it now?"
and what i am saying
is NOT that the exterior does not matter
but that lack of interior illumination does...A whole helluva LOT
interior-only is a certain kind of trouble
exterior-only is a certain kind of trouble
but they go best together...and both are truly limitless
and too...i think there is a big difference between
1) having a shared myth about how the world's evil will come to an end someday, and how my body and soul will be saved from mortal destruction, etc...and
2) actually practicing things that transform your inner awareness, and how you interpret both the exterior and interior world
and no, not alone...but in a way where we can openly and rationally compare these experiences of transformation without the shame, guilt, blame that comes with behaviour (speech) driven my motivations we are not even aware of ourselves (and so blame our interior suffering on others)
its just that the different segments of society get heavily slanted in one way or another...which is mostly from avoidance and rejection of a view they already have.
and if we add an avoidance of deep interior with a powerful story of a returning savior, or rewards of virgins, and a strong desire to change the way the world thinks and acts....yowza
of course...none of this is ever the whole story
christian history, doctrine and scripture are way too complex to put in a box
You see, I really don't need to add 'substance' to what some of you are promoting as your beliefs. I just let you 'waffle' on and myself and others can draw our own conclusions. INNER awareness, SELF-consciousness, SELF-realisation etc..
Most of us should already know that double speak. Most of you should know my beliefs are fairly consistent with pfal, so if you were ever in twi (which I seriously doubt Todd and Clay ever were) you would assume correctly that I don't need pages and pages to back up what I believe.
As for 'taken to task' by moderator for postings Todd...try not to be so 'foul-mouthed' with your words.
And I am the one who was taken to task by the moderators and I fully complied.
You are the one Allan Alf that should be listening to what is actually said instead of what you think you are hearing. Your mind is blinded and heart is darkened yet there is light in there somewhere. God knows I'm not that motivated to help you see it. But I'm one of the hirelings that got a penny for working the last hour of the day.
Gosh, dancing and Sir guess, don't you know that you are supposed to obey your spiritual overseer(Allan) without question? A spiritual overseer doesn't have to prove anything or give any explanation!
I guess you all missed out on the valuable lessons taught in TWI 2.
1 John4:4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
You see, I really don't need to add 'substance' to what some of you are promoting as your beliefs. I just let you 'waffle' on and myself and others can draw our own conclusions. INNER awareness, SELF-consciousness, SELF-realisation etc..
Most of us should already know that double speak. Most of you should know my beliefs are fairly consistent with pfal, so if you were ever in twi (which I seriously doubt Todd and Clay ever were) you would assume correctly that I don't need pages and pages to back up what I believe.
As for 'taken to task' by moderator for postings Todd...try not to be so 'foul-mouthed' with your words.
"You see, I really don't need to add 'substance' to what some of you are promoting as your beliefs."
No, you don't. The criticism was that you have no substance concerning YOUR beliefs.
"I just let you 'waffle' on..."
But you don't.
"...and myself and others can draw our own conclusions."
It's been a while since I've been here at the cafe, but from what I can see on this thread, it is YOU that everyone has drawn their own conclusions about.
"As for 'taken to task' by moderator for postings Todd...try not to be so 'foul-mouthed' with your words."
As I said, it's been a while since I've been here at the cafe, but I don't see where Todd has been anything but the perfectly constrained gentleman. Are you drudging faults from other threads that you've kept in a little black book of other's faults, , or, which seems from your other statements (see above in this post), are you just that unable to match your thinking to what's really happening?
Perhaps this last question should be posted on the computer questions thread, but isn't there some way to direct those who show up here thinking about the validity of TWI to a history of this guy's posts?
C'mon, you anti-PFAL guys put him up to this - fess up.
heerz a little more ranting and raving lunacy after a very successful install and all-around good time with my bro...
yeah, Dancing....thats kinda why i have a hard time quoting scripture about this kind of stuff anymore
just throw a dart, ya know?
especially the new testament
i tell ya, if there is any sort of sequence of increasing inward interpretational capacity, at all,
(and it seems to me as if there is) it might look something like this...
- i can see where first, we take scripture literally as being like a magic spell that selfishly gets us things, whether it is a wonderful foolish child, or a grown man who still thinks like one. This mode of interpretation, of course, is an inward experience that relates to our outer behaviour, which also equally has a part in shaping that same experience
- but when that stops working (and it eventually will), we may see them as figures of speech, then triumph over having unlocked the keys, so we start secret decoder ring clubs. This is a shared inward experience that relates to our shared outer behaviour and environment, which than also equally has a part in shaping experience
- but when that stops working (and it eventually will), we may see a pragmatic value to parts of the society that have grown up and out and through the Christian languages. Language itself is a vessel for shared experience.
- but when that stops working (and it eventually will), and we may realize all previous ideas are pretty limited, so we avoid the whole idea and go play in the dirt pile somewhere else. neither figure of speech or literal or useful...just infinite layers of b.s. and deception
- but then, when that stops working (and it eventually will), we may realize that it was both figurative and literal again, but for many completely different reasons. maybe we will finally be able to loosen our grip on the book and rest inside
cuz all of creation is/was/and always will be The Word of God
even the parts of it we want to avoid or make disappear
"welcome to preschool again, kiddo"
the "angel of death" might say about now
and "get used to failure after failure after failure"
...especially those occuring within, and against our own will,
cuz they are designed to simply increase our capacities to know and care
yada yada yada (to put it jewishly)
and does not Christ want us to always increase or capacity to know and care?
..
its not: "the destination is within"
but: "at least always start your journey there, and from as deeply and authenticly from there as you can"
it seems to me, that the overall value of increased inward attention
(awareness, whatever...or some other word that is more digestable)
is from how it shows us more deeply how we simply already are within
and knowing this is ultimately only increasingly good for everyone else, too
(and both within and without of them, too...after all, the love of God is all-encompassing, or God is not God)
and so i wonder...what part of us (again, within us) tells us that God is somehow missing, or elsewhere?
cuz no matter where you are, the invisible God is there, right?
and if the entire created universe is also always only outward from that point within yourself
and if this is true for each of us
then, i'm sorry (not really), but there is a friggin lot more going on than it seems
but we are typically not allowed to somehow have a direct experience or direct understanding of that severe bigness (due to shame and fear).
and we are naturally born afraid of falling, afraid of the dark, afraid of the deeps of outer space, afraid of stuff that comes from within us against our will, especially the stuff in our sleep.
yet, for our ultimate sanity, we must eventually find out how to freefall within without fear
we must eventually find out how to truly "walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil"
...and not just say that we want to
God is holy for being something that still does not go away when we are naked and alone in the dark night of the soul (within)...or scripture lies about God
as an exercise...ask yourself: who do you refuse to touch with your compassion and why, right now
(yes, with that heart that is within you now, clenched like a bloody fist)
(and yes, with that mind that is already within you now trying to be a rainbow about your head)
if you do this...in the most classic practical spiritual scriptural sense,
you will have met your own personal master spiritual teacher
"sent from God" to open your heart a little more
cuz when the kid said "love your enemy"
he was talking about that aspect of the enemy that is within us, where love begins
...even if we still have to face them on the battlefield
cuz there is a sense of love that is a truly radical grace, beyond lip service
or it is not the same love that scripture describes
and our first responsibiity is to find it and open it within ourselves prior to opening it in others
...or we are completely wrong and should stop and turn completely around
as a general reliable rule
then, when our attention turns out to the world again, it will be coming from a deeper more genuine and humble self
which is simply more effective and has more leverage, in the long run
and i do believe it is possible that the whole world will get this someday
though it will obviously be a dramatic shift from what is happening within most everyone now.
but when/if it does, it would be fair to say that the living Christ has returned to the whole world
You see, I really don't need to add 'substance' to what some of you are promoting as your beliefs. I just let you 'waffle' on and myself and others can draw our own conclusions. INNER awareness, SELF-consciousness, SELF-realisation etc..
Most of us should already know that double speak. Most of you should know my beliefs are fairly consistent with pfal, so if you were ever in twi (which I seriously doubt Todd and Clay ever were) you would assume correctly that I don't need pages and pages to back up what I believe.
As for 'taken to task' by moderator for postings Todd...try not to be so 'foul-mouthed' with your words.
that sucks, we can lie, and harrass
and repeat our same mean ole little uptight message over and over and over...
...but we cant cuss at each other?
bummer for gsc (except Allen, of course)
btw, i have never been taken to task by a moderator in all my years posting here
btw, i have never asked Allen to back up what he believes
allen, i think it would actually be interesting to read what you believe about pfal
and then compare it to what i learned about pfal as a grad of pfal, intermediate classes, advanced classes, wow, twig coordinator, way corps....etc...
(if it wasnt so exhausting)
besides...we mostly already know what you believe (at least what you believe about many of us)
in fact, you wont stop telling us all what you believe about us
and how you actually hold us responsible for your fears
truth is, even though a part of me wishes you would find a reason to shut the hell up for awhile,
another part of me actually wishes you would just tell us how the heck we can help you get through your obvious tormented state
because truly, you are as much our problem as we our yours, right now
(ast least as it pertains to this forum, of course)
so maybe picture me more like a beggar with a cup, if it helps you
asking you, Allen, as the self-proclaimed spokesperson and defender of God that you are...
show us mercy
give us the wisdom that will set us free from you
and sets you free from us
show us the way to appease you
send someone to save us from your wrath
what sacrifice must we make?
what must we give you?
what must we do so you find and manifest peace?
i am more than willing to hear what you think will work
cuz i think if we find out what will do this for you (and us)
and especially if we find out what it is together...
...we might actually get along quite fine once we are done
Most of you should know my beliefs are fairly consistent with pfal, so if you were ever in twi (which I seriously doubt Todd and Clay ever were) you would assume correctly that I don't need pages and pages to back up what I believe.
Must be nice not to have to think about what one believes.
Why is there light in it? How can light be in darkness?
A beautiful post, dancer.
"the door has been opened
by the hand of God's servants
they bore the heat of the day
beheaded, tortured, imprisoned"
Not to belittle the sacrifices of God's servants, beheaded, tortured, imprisoned, nor the real contribution they made toward the opening of the door, but it was the hand of the Lord & the sacrifice of his son that lived in their hearts as they followed in his steps, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the door opening joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God, and we follow him there - or not.
"how is that light can shine out of darkness?
we were told darkness is bad and devilish
Why is there light in it? How can light be in darkness?"
Light shining out of darkness is not a quality of the darkness, but a result of God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, and shine in our hearts, to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ who holds the key of David. He it is who opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens.
The door is open for this season. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.
The door to God's heart is open. Is our door open? Jesus is knocking. If we open up the door to our hearts, he'll come in & have supper with us & we with him. The food will be sweet going down & make everything good on the inside.
Yeah it is actually Oaks...kind of peaceful in an undisturbed believing sort of a way. Tom..if you don't have a problem with people using profane language then I guess that says a little about you as a person.
What part don't you get ?? I still believe 95 % of what was taught via pfal. Do you want me to just scan and post all the books for you and at the end I can say "this is what I believe" ??!!
If you don't know what it is about pfal that I believe then maybe Mike is right...go back and master the stuff.
Todd and Clay...I personally believe you're a couple of 'sick puppies'. I shudder to think what you whisper in the ears of the terminally ill you work with before they take their last breath.
My prayer to God is that your Anamcara theme park is shown for what it really is and (maybe) gets added to John Juedes list of cults !!
for the record, for anyone reading this who is not familiar with Allen's menacing habits
(and i plan to post something like this every time Allen posts his disinformation around me):
Allan has never actually investigated the things or people he is criticizing
nor is he qualified to comment on them
in fact, the project he criticizes is part of an internationally acclaimed educational series
heavily overseen by doctors, nurses, psychologists, rabbis, pastors from outside of the project
and was initially developed under the direct guidance of the founder of the modern hospice movement
also, there are no sex scandals, no alchohol abuse, no demand for followers or allegience, no financial dishonesty, and no academic dishonesty, and no claims of elitism and exclusive superiority, etc...
and...it is not my only source of education and inspiration and day-to-day activity
...nor do i parrot things mindlessly
...and i am self-employed
the content of my thoughts and feelings on this thread were developed long before i ever encountered the project i am currently a part of
and no, i do not get into doctrinal discussions like this with people who are dying
(and for the last time, Clay has nothing whatsoever to do with any of it, except that he knows me through this forum, and i have come to consider him a dear friend of mine)
here is his website if you want to know more about Allan's beliefs and the organization he belongs to
btw...contrary to what he says, no one here that i know of has attacked his website or his organization
except perhaps in defense of themselves, and to illustrate his extreme hypocrisy
but here is a recent example of his beliefs:
to Allan: "Must be nice not to have to think about what one believes"
from Allan: "Yeah it is actually...kind of peaceful in an undisturbed believing sort of a way."
Yeah it is actually Oaks...kind of peaceful in an undisturbed believing sort of a way.
Allan, don't misunderstand me, I have no problem with people who believe all or part of PFAL. Some of the people here at GS who I have met personally and have a lot of respect for still hold to PFAL, at least in part.
What I have a problem with is mindless acceptance of anything, including PFAL. Nobody wants a complete statement of beliefs from you. But you spend a lot of time here at GS bashing and belittling other folks' beliefs. The sum total of your reasons for this is that they are different than your beliefs; and the basis of your beliefs is that VP Wierewille said so. Or so it appears from your posts.
As one fellow human being to another - I am respectfully asking you to please stop posting malicious statements about a program and an organization that you know nothing about.
It is incredibly disrepectful to the many hospice workers and the patients, and their families. I usually don't like to get into the fray - but the things you have written are incredibly false and extremely hurtful..
And just so you do not "catch" me in any "falseness" as I can see you use.
I am Todd's wife and I also work for the organization you continue to slander.
I am sure you are a decent person and I do hope you will consider the language you use in regards to our center. If you want to have it out with Todd then so be it - that is a separate issue and he can more than handle himself. If you want to talk about what we "actually" do as an organization I would be more than happy to talk with you. And before you get cheeky - "no I do not want to recruit you" - contrary to what you have written, we do not do that, and to my knowledge (to put your mind at ease) no one else on this forum is currently in our courses.
These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
Our forums cover many topics from religious to political. While we are not a religious site, we do embrace discussions in this area.
All are welcome here. However, harassing behavior will result in being banned from the forums. There is no need for personal attacks. If you have a specific problem with a poster, settle it outside of the forum. Threads of that nature will be deleted or sent to the Soap Opera Forum.
Yeah it is actually Oaks...kind of peaceful in an undisturbed believing sort of a way. Tom..if you don't have a problem with people using profane language then I guess that says a little about you as a person.
What part don't you get ?? I still believe 95 % of what was taught via pfal. Do you want me to just scan and post all the books for you and at the end I can say "this is what I believe" ??!!
If you don't know what it is about pfal that I believe then maybe Mike is right...go back and master the stuff.
Todd and Clay...I personally believe you're a couple of 'sick puppies'. I shudder to think what you whisper in the ears of the terminally ill you work with before they take their last breath.
My prayer to God is that your Anamcara theme park is shown for what it really is and (maybe) gets added to John Juedes list of cults !!
"Tom..if you don't have a problem with people using profane language then I guess that says a little about you as a person. What part don't you get ??"
All those books you've read, Wow; but still can't read too well, huh? Too bad, so sad. It wasn't Todd who used profane language; it was dancer.
Oh, where's a good profane word when you need one? No, I don't too much mind a little profane language. Some people merit profane language. It's profane people that I mind. They're the people who merit profane language.
"Do you want me to just scan and post all the books for you and at the end I can say "this is what I believe" ??!! If you don't know what it is about pfal that I believe then maybe Mike is right...go back and master the stuff."
For someone who has mastered the stuff, you think you'd be able to at least get some of it to come out of your mouth. The Word says concerning those who hear the words of the wise, and apply their hearts unto knowledge, that it is a pleasant thing if you keep them within you; that they shall, together with this, be fitted in your lips. Either you don't keep the words of PFAL within you, they're not the words of the wise, or you don't apply your heart to the knowledge they have, because they're sure not coming out of your mouth.
Which makes you - what?
"I shudder to think what you whisper in the ears of the terminally ill you work with before they take their last breath."
No, you don't. Your mind lusts after the iniquity that you imagine. It is what drives you to continue in it even though you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
to the many hospice workers and the patients, and their families...
Thank You,
Kellie
To the many hospice workers, thank you for the fine and compassionate work you do. As family fortunate to have hopice workers care for my own, I can only say that you understand an area of life that is understood by very few and handle the hearts involved with amazing love and skill.
We do not have to endure the cross as Jesus Christ did.
But we die in a like manner as the new is put on the old dies.
And it is a real experience.
And it doesn't happen all at once.
This inner change that is talked about so much in the scriptures, when actually experienced these verses will make a lot more sense.
Staying in the same mind patterns of the old prevents the new, because the old wineskin-thought patterns will break ones will to see the new.
One only needs to know that they don't know and seek ask and look because once looking in different directions, new things will be seen. Fear stops most, fear of the unknown. Fear of losing something, but if you really have something you will not lose it. It will be more like the trees that are kept up that are good trees.
And considering first because there is always choices.
There are multiple ways of looking, because everyone is different.
It's simple really, it has to be because we are so dumb. :)
And no one will miss because it just keeps coming back around.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
24
18
11
22
Popular Days
Jun 17
30
Jun 18
20
Jul 6
17
Jun 16
15
Top Posters In This Topic
sirguessalot 24 posts
Tom 18 posts
allan w. 11 posts
dancing 22 posts
Popular Days
Jun 17 2006
30 posts
Jun 18 2006
20 posts
Jul 6 2006
17 posts
Jun 16 2006
15 posts
sirguessalot
thanks for the detailed replies Goey and Tom
i apologize for not responding in detail...i actually have a ton of stuff on my plate
and must go install a book shelf i built and donated for a library
(my brother Aaron and I even cut and milled the wood...I am glad to be done, though..whew)
but i want to see if i can attempt to see if i catch the essence of what you are saying and respond to it in essence as well...even though i am obviously only touching a few aspects of this complex subject
i believe the internal and external views are equally valid and worth endless volumes
but also, that each can be viewed as collective versus individual as well
i will even go as far as to say that these views are NOT something we must gain
but rather something we come to unconsciously avoid and/or get addicted to and/or become numb to
for example.. how some people avoid their own interior as if it was a demon
and some avoid the exterior as if it was a demon
and some avoid isolation as if it was a demon
and some avoid relationships as if it was a demon
most ideally, we should include all views
not only in doctrinal discussion, but in present living life
one i think scripture testifies of, is how dangerous and destructive it is for a lot of people who have not examined their own inner selves anywhere near the depth and degree of those in the Bible (and elsewhere), yet crusading (christian, atheist, muslim, wiccan, or otherwise) to change the interior opinions of others
for me, its not "what religion does is?"
but "who is doing it now?"
and what i am saying
is NOT that the exterior does not matter
but that lack of interior illumination does...A whole helluva LOT
interior-only is a certain kind of trouble
exterior-only is a certain kind of trouble
but they go best together...and both are truly limitless
and too...i think there is a big difference between
1) having a shared myth about how the world's evil will come to an end someday, and how my body and soul will be saved from mortal destruction, etc...and
2) actually practicing things that transform your inner awareness, and how you interpret both the exterior and interior world
and no, not alone...but in a way where we can openly and rationally compare these experiences of transformation without the shame, guilt, blame that comes with behaviour (speech) driven my motivations we are not even aware of ourselves (and so blame our interior suffering on others)
its just that the different segments of society get heavily slanted in one way or another...which is mostly from avoidance and rejection of a view they already have.
and if we add an avoidance of deep interior with a powerful story of a returning savior, or rewards of virgins, and a strong desire to change the way the world thinks and acts....yowza
of course...none of this is ever the whole story
christian history, doctrine and scripture are way too complex to put in a box
whether its a christian or non-christian doing it
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
another thought as i wait for my ride to the jobsite...
i think that as our interior deepens
(and dont be fooled by size of the human form...hehe)
the very basis for our exterior simply only deepens
and imo, that is friggin huge!
as far as having a scripture in mind, for the call to inward work prior to outward work
...i say, with a mix of play and seriousness...throw a dart and pick one
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
You see, I really don't need to add 'substance' to what some of you are promoting as your beliefs. I just let you 'waffle' on and myself and others can draw our own conclusions. INNER awareness, SELF-consciousness, SELF-realisation etc..
Most of us should already know that double speak. Most of you should know my beliefs are fairly consistent with pfal, so if you were ever in twi (which I seriously doubt Todd and Clay ever were) you would assume correctly that I don't need pages and pages to back up what I believe.
As for 'taken to task' by moderator for postings Todd...try not to be so 'foul-mouthed' with your words.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Sorry to tell ya allan alf, twenty years in twi and you still look the same to me. It's your mouth that you will answer for.
Over 6 years out and the new day has already dawned. Quite some time ago.
Edited by dancingLink to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
And I am the one who was taken to task by the moderators and I fully complied.
You are the one Allan Alf that should be listening to what is actually said instead of what you think you are hearing. Your mind is blinded and heart is darkened yet there is light in there somewhere. God knows I'm not that motivated to help you see it. But I'm one of the hirelings that got a penny for working the last hour of the day.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Gosh, dancing and Sir guess, don't you know that you are supposed to obey your spiritual overseer(Allan) without question? A spiritual overseer doesn't have to prove anything or give any explanation!
I guess you all missed out on the valuable lessons taught in TWI 2.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Someone asked for verses...
1 John4:4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
word searchs to do that help-
in you
within
heart
mind
soul
spirit
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
"You see, I really don't need to add 'substance' to what some of you are promoting as your beliefs."
No, you don't. The criticism was that you have no substance concerning YOUR beliefs.
"I just let you 'waffle' on..."
But you don't.
"...and myself and others can draw our own conclusions."
It's been a while since I've been here at the cafe, but from what I can see on this thread, it is YOU that everyone has drawn their own conclusions about.
"As for 'taken to task' by moderator for postings Todd...try not to be so 'foul-mouthed' with your words."
As I said, it's been a while since I've been here at the cafe, but I don't see where Todd has been anything but the perfectly constrained gentleman. Are you drudging faults from other threads that you've kept in a little black book of other's faults,
, or, which seems from your other statements (see above in this post), are you just that unable to match your thinking to what's really happening?
Perhaps this last question should be posted on the computer questions thread, but isn't there some way to direct those who show up here thinking about the validity of TWI to a history of this guy's posts?
C'mon, you anti-PFAL guys put him up to this - fess up.
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
heerz a little more ranting and raving lunacy after a very successful install and all-around good time with my bro...
yeah, Dancing....thats kinda why i have a hard time quoting scripture about this kind of stuff anymore
just throw a dart, ya know?
especially the new testament
i tell ya, if there is any sort of sequence of increasing inward interpretational capacity, at all,
(and it seems to me as if there is) it might look something like this...
- i can see where first, we take scripture literally as being like a magic spell that selfishly gets us things, whether it is a wonderful foolish child, or a grown man who still thinks like one. This mode of interpretation, of course, is an inward experience that relates to our outer behaviour, which also equally has a part in shaping that same experience
- but when that stops working (and it eventually will), we may see them as figures of speech, then triumph over having unlocked the keys, so we start secret decoder ring clubs. This is a shared inward experience that relates to our shared outer behaviour and environment, which than also equally has a part in shaping experience
- but when that stops working (and it eventually will), we may see a pragmatic value to parts of the society that have grown up and out and through the Christian languages. Language itself is a vessel for shared experience.
- but when that stops working (and it eventually will), and we may realize all previous ideas are pretty limited, so we avoid the whole idea and go play in the dirt pile somewhere else. neither figure of speech or literal or useful...just infinite layers of b.s. and deception
- but then, when that stops working (and it eventually will), we may realize that it was both figurative and literal again, but for many completely different reasons. maybe we will finally be able to loosen our grip on the book and rest inside
cuz all of creation is/was/and always will be The Word of God
even the parts of it we want to avoid or make disappear
"welcome to preschool again, kiddo"
the "angel of death" might say about now
and "get used to failure after failure after failure"
...especially those occuring within, and against our own will,
cuz they are designed to simply increase our capacities to know and care
yada yada yada (to put it jewishly)
and does not Christ want us to always increase or capacity to know and care?
..
its not: "the destination is within"
but: "at least always start your journey there, and from as deeply and authenticly from there as you can"
it seems to me, that the overall value of increased inward attention
(awareness, whatever...or some other word that is more digestable)
is from how it shows us more deeply how we simply already are within
and knowing this is ultimately only increasingly good for everyone else, too
(and both within and without of them, too...after all, the love of God is all-encompassing, or God is not God)
and so i wonder...what part of us (again, within us) tells us that God is somehow missing, or elsewhere?
cuz no matter where you are, the invisible God is there, right?
and if the entire created universe is also always only outward from that point within yourself
and if this is true for each of us
then, i'm sorry (not really), but there is a friggin lot more going on than it seems
but we are typically not allowed to somehow have a direct experience or direct understanding of that severe bigness (due to shame and fear).
and we are naturally born afraid of falling, afraid of the dark, afraid of the deeps of outer space, afraid of stuff that comes from within us against our will, especially the stuff in our sleep.
yet, for our ultimate sanity, we must eventually find out how to freefall within without fear
we must eventually find out how to truly "walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil"
...and not just say that we want to
God is holy for being something that still does not go away when we are naked and alone in the dark night of the soul (within)...or scripture lies about God
as an exercise...ask yourself: who do you refuse to touch with your compassion and why, right now
(yes, with that heart that is within you now, clenched like a bloody fist)
(and yes, with that mind that is already within you now trying to be a rainbow about your head)
if you do this...in the most classic practical spiritual scriptural sense,
you will have met your own personal master spiritual teacher
"sent from God" to open your heart a little more
cuz when the kid said "love your enemy"
he was talking about that aspect of the enemy that is within us, where love begins
...even if we still have to face them on the battlefield
cuz there is a sense of love that is a truly radical grace, beyond lip service
or it is not the same love that scripture describes
and our first responsibiity is to find it and open it within ourselves prior to opening it in others
...or we are completely wrong and should stop and turn completely around
as a general reliable rule
then, when our attention turns out to the world again, it will be coming from a deeper more genuine and humble self
which is simply more effective and has more leverage, in the long run
and i do believe it is possible that the whole world will get this someday
though it will obviously be a dramatic shift from what is happening within most everyone now.
but when/if it does, it would be fair to say that the living Christ has returned to the whole world
...without breaking scripture at all
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
that sucks, we can lie, and harrass
and repeat our same mean ole little uptight message over and over and over...
...but we cant cuss at each other?
bummer for gsc (except Allen, of course)
btw, i have never been taken to task by a moderator in all my years posting here
btw, i have never asked Allen to back up what he believes
allen, i think it would actually be interesting to read what you believe about pfal
and then compare it to what i learned about pfal as a grad of pfal, intermediate classes, advanced classes, wow, twig coordinator, way corps....etc...
(if it wasnt so exhausting)
besides...we mostly already know what you believe (at least what you believe about many of us)
in fact, you wont stop telling us all what you believe about us
and how you actually hold us responsible for your fears
truth is, even though a part of me wishes you would find a reason to shut the hell up for awhile,
another part of me actually wishes you would just tell us how the heck we can help you get through your obvious tormented state
because truly, you are as much our problem as we our yours, right now
(ast least as it pertains to this forum, of course)
so maybe picture me more like a beggar with a cup, if it helps you
asking you, Allen, as the self-proclaimed spokesperson and defender of God that you are...
show us mercy
give us the wisdom that will set us free from you
and sets you free from us
show us the way to appease you
send someone to save us from your wrath
what sacrifice must we make?
what must we give you?
what must we do so you find and manifest peace?
i am more than willing to hear what you think will work
cuz i think if we find out what will do this for you (and us)
and especially if we find out what it is together...
...we might actually get along quite fine once we are done
though it would also be a miracle
which is a good thing, too
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
the vail has been ripped apart
a clean cut with a lot of blood
the door has been opened
by the hand of God's servants
they bore the heat of the day
beheaded, tortured, imprisoned
the Word of God
thoughts and intents
the sword is the Word
hot as fire
cool as ice
separating relatives
the relatives are thoughts not people
in the mind
systems upon system
thought upon thought
line upon line
words upon words
who holds the key
who can straighten that which is crooked
who can bend the unbendable
who can break the unbreakable
light to dark
dark to light
how is that light can shine out of darkness?
we were told darkness is bad and devilish
Why is there light in it? How can light be in darkness?
Edited by dancingLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
A beautiful post, dancer.
"the door has been opened
by the hand of God's servants
they bore the heat of the day
beheaded, tortured, imprisoned"
Not to belittle the sacrifices of God's servants, beheaded, tortured, imprisoned, nor the real contribution they made toward the opening of the door, but it was the hand of the Lord & the sacrifice of his son that lived in their hearts as they followed in his steps, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the door opening joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God, and we follow him there - or not.
"how is that light can shine out of darkness?
we were told darkness is bad and devilish
Why is there light in it? How can light be in darkness?"
Light shining out of darkness is not a quality of the darkness, but a result of God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, and shine in our hearts, to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ who holds the key of David. He it is who opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens.
The door is open for this season. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.
The door to God's heart is open. Is our door open? Jesus is knocking. If we open up the door to our hearts, he'll come in & have supper with us & we with him. The food will be sweet going down & make everything good on the inside.
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
some searches
within
inward
inner
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Yeah it is actually Oaks...kind of peaceful in an undisturbed believing sort of a way. Tom..if you don't have a problem with people using profane language then I guess that says a little about you as a person.
What part don't you get ?? I still believe 95 % of what was taught via pfal. Do you want me to just scan and post all the books for you and at the end I can say "this is what I believe" ??!!
If you don't know what it is about pfal that I believe then maybe Mike is right...go back and master the stuff.
Todd and Clay...I personally believe you're a couple of 'sick puppies'. I shudder to think what you whisper in the ears of the terminally ill you work with before they take their last breath.
My prayer to God is that your Anamcara theme park is shown for what it really is and (maybe) gets added to John Juedes list of cults !!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
for the record, for anyone reading this who is not familiar with Allen's menacing habits
(and i plan to post something like this every time Allen posts his disinformation around me):
Allan has never actually investigated the things or people he is criticizing
nor is he qualified to comment on them
in fact, the project he criticizes is part of an internationally acclaimed educational series
heavily overseen by doctors, nurses, psychologists, rabbis, pastors from outside of the project
and was initially developed under the direct guidance of the founder of the modern hospice movement
also, there are no sex scandals, no alchohol abuse, no demand for followers or allegience, no financial dishonesty, and no academic dishonesty, and no claims of elitism and exclusive superiority, etc...
and...it is not my only source of education and inspiration and day-to-day activity
...nor do i parrot things mindlessly
...and i am self-employed
the content of my thoughts and feelings on this thread were developed long before i ever encountered the project i am currently a part of
and no, i do not get into doctrinal discussions like this with people who are dying
here is a thread i started on the topic
(and for the last time, Clay has nothing whatsoever to do with any of it, except that he knows me through this forum, and i have come to consider him a dear friend of mine)
here is his website if you want to know more about Allan's beliefs and the organization he belongs to
btw...contrary to what he says, no one here that i know of has attacked his website or his organization
except perhaps in defense of themselves, and to illustrate his extreme hypocrisy
but here is a recent example of his beliefs:
to Allan: "Must be nice not to have to think about what one believes"
from Allan: "Yeah it is actually...kind of peaceful in an undisturbed believing sort of a way."
but aside from that
i do think Allen provides a great example for us
as long as we can stomach it
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
What I have a problem with is mindless acceptance of anything, including PFAL. Nobody wants a complete statement of beliefs from you. But you spend a lot of time here at GS bashing and belittling other folks' beliefs. The sum total of your reasons for this is that they are different than your beliefs; and the basis of your beliefs is that VP Wierewille said so. Or so it appears from your posts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
paleblueiris2
Allan,
As one fellow human being to another - I am respectfully asking you to please stop posting malicious statements about a program and an organization that you know nothing about.
It is incredibly disrepectful to the many hospice workers and the patients, and their families. I usually don't like to get into the fray - but the things you have written are incredibly false and extremely hurtful..
And just so you do not "catch" me in any "falseness" as I can see you use.
I am Todd's wife and I also work for the organization you continue to slander.
I am sure you are a decent person and I do hope you will consider the language you use in regards to our center. If you want to have it out with Todd then so be it - that is a separate issue and he can more than handle himself. If you want to talk about what we "actually" do as an organization I would be more than happy to talk with you. And before you get cheeky - "no I do not want to recruit you" - contrary to what you have written, we do not do that, and to my knowledge (to put your mind at ease) no one else on this forum is currently in our courses.
Thank You,
Kellie
Edited by paleblueiris2Link to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
thanks
yeah, this is getting old
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
"Tom..if you don't have a problem with people using profane language then I guess that says a little about you as a person. What part don't you get ??"
All those books you've read, Wow; but still can't read too well, huh? Too bad, so sad. It wasn't Todd who used profane language; it was dancer.
Oh, where's a good profane word when you need one? No, I don't too much mind a little profane language. Some people merit profane language. It's profane people that I mind. They're the people who merit profane language.
"Do you want me to just scan and post all the books for you and at the end I can say "this is what I believe" ??!! If you don't know what it is about pfal that I believe then maybe Mike is right...go back and master the stuff."
For someone who has mastered the stuff, you think you'd be able to at least get some of it to come out of your mouth. The Word says concerning those who hear the words of the wise, and apply their hearts unto knowledge, that it is a pleasant thing if you keep them within you; that they shall, together with this, be fitted in your lips. Either you don't keep the words of PFAL within you, they're not the words of the wise, or you don't apply your heart to the knowledge they have, because they're sure not coming out of your mouth.
Which makes you - what?
"I shudder to think what you whisper in the ears of the terminally ill you work with before they take their last breath."
No, you don't. Your mind lusts after the iniquity that you imagine. It is what drives you to continue in it even though you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
well, actually...i gave him quite an earful in private after one of his recent attacks, Tom
nothing R-rated, mind you...but an earful, nonetheless
but thanks for your support
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
To the many hospice workers, thank you for the fine and compassionate work you do. As family fortunate to have hopice workers care for my own, I can only say that you understand an area of life that is understood by very few and handle the hearts involved with amazing love and skill.
I'm in awe of your hearts and your lives.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Oh, okay; I take it back. You're a real sweetheart, Allen - a real contributor to the quality of life around here.
Pffft
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Thanks Tom,
Certainly more compliments are needed here.
Jesus was also a servant of God. Still is.
And yes he is the example of faith.
To give one's life for others.
We do not have to endure the cross as Jesus Christ did.
But we die in a like manner as the new is put on the old dies.
And it is a real experience.
And it doesn't happen all at once.
This inner change that is talked about so much in the scriptures, when actually experienced these verses will make a lot more sense.
Staying in the same mind patterns of the old prevents the new, because the old wineskin-thought patterns will break ones will to see the new.
One only needs to know that they don't know and seek ask and look because once looking in different directions, new things will be seen. Fear stops most, fear of the unknown. Fear of losing something, but if you really have something you will not lose it. It will be more like the trees that are kept up that are good trees.
And considering first because there is always choices.
There are multiple ways of looking, because everyone is different.
It's simple really, it has to be because we are so dumb. :)
And no one will miss because it just keeps coming back around.
Edited by dancingLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.