Same Sh!t different day or Century

[Dot Matrix]

This whole CES thing has me looking at stumbling blocks -- so we (some of us) can be smarter -

Looking at some of these "hooks"

They just seem very similar -- like alter them slightly and we have TWI or CES or the like.

It is kind of a shame...

Look at Martin Luther's era:

Look at this about Martin Luther:

… At the period of the Reformation, the corruption of the clergy, and the shameful abuses by which they had debased the holy and beneficent religion of Jesus had been carried to the utmost extreme.

The seductive artifices… & schemes of the court of Rome, for the purpose of establishing her supremacy… even over heaven; these were matters too palpable and outrageous not to excite attention or to be any longer endured.

The terrible and corrupting principle, that the people ought to be kept in a state of blindness, was every where reduced to practice. The holiness and infallibility of the pope (fill in the blank – Dan, Craig, VPW, JAL KAG) were preached as indispensable articles of creed, in order to avoid the loss of eternal happiness….

AND:

….. It was only the house of Austria which at this eventful period remained the faithful

adherent to the pope, and the subservient pimp of superstition. Indescribable was the misery which that house brought upon all Germany, and millions of Germans did she murder to stop the progress of truth; to protect blessed ignorance and stupidity; to exercise the most shameful and oppressive tyranny, and to favour the priesthood and its vile deceptions.

http://www.nathan.co.za/luther.pdf

Or how about this stuff:

Salem Witch hunts: Seemed like some stuff WAS happening that should be looked at, but these people put the microscope on the innocent – wonder if they saw spiders exiting a nose?

…The relatives of the afflicted girls tried different alternatives to obtain answers. Mary Sibley, the aunt of one of the afflicted girls, called on Tituba with a plan to allegedly use magic to unmask the witches. Although Mary Sibley had resorted to witchcraft to seek out the witches, she was not accused of any crime. As the craze went on, it became obvious that the authorities were selective. They dismissed some charges as absurd. They seemed to pursue most strongly people with little power or people against whom Parris or the Putnams already had a gripe….

http://tn.essortment.com/salemwitchhunt_rkto.htm

David Koresh’s prophesies:

Interesting as JAL mentioned that KAG had some valid prophesies for him and others. And maybe she did. But in this article some of David Koresh's prophesies seemed to be correct. Hmmm who was feeding him the words and visons?

… CV:

Is there anything else Clive did or said to lead you to believe he is trying to suppress news of David Koresh's prophecies?…

http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/Wac...age/b_kce4.html

Sound a bit like TWI? CES and the whole prophesy faux pas? Same sh!t different day errr Century….

People getting carried away with their own importance. Taking ANYTHING they think as a message from God – be it a gripe or not--

Any others come to mind? I like the Martin Luther example because he was just a guy maybe like Raf, WW, Mark S. or you and me... And he had a heck of a battle but he really changed things. (I am not encouraging anyone to hang in there (TWI, CES or anything) but he really changed things

Edited December 28, 2006 by Dot Matrix

[Linda Z]

Dot, If you put Martin Luther under the same microscope, I think you'll see that he was no angel, either.

Here's one excerpt from an interesting Web site--at http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ269.HTM

(Bold type added by me)

Some of Luther's most shocking opinions are regarding celibacy, chastity, and marriage. One might expect from Luther a certain disdain of Tradition, but not such a wanton disrespect of the moral teachings of the Bible. The most famous sexual scandal of the Protestant Revolt was the bigamy of the Prince ("Landgrave") Philip of Hesse. Philip was married, but continually engaged in adultery, and petitioned Luther for permission to take another wife. Although bigamy was punishable by death in German law, Philip Melanchthon, Luther's right-hand man and successor, wrote a document sanctioning bigamy, signed by Luther and six other "reformers," including Martin Bucer. It reads in part:

We declare under an oath that it ought to be done secretly . . . It is nothing unusual for princes to have concubines . . . and this modest way of living would please more than adultery.

(Document dated December 10, 1539 / Luther's Letters, De Wette -- Seidemann, Berlin, 1828, vol. 6, 255-265)

The secret soon became public, whereupon Melanchthon "sickened almost to death with remorse." Luther, unabashed, acted as if he was totally unaware of the illegal and immoral transaction, and confided to friends: A secret yes must remain a public no and vice versa.

(De Wette, vol. 6, 263)

The conclusion I came to long ago, when disappointed by a group of Christians I was involved with before my twi days, is that people, being human, are prone to really screw things up. There IS no perfect man of God, because there are no perfect people. There is no perfect church, fellowship, religious organization because there are no perfect people to form them. Perfection truly is in the Lord, not in any manmade group that may or may not have the best intentions to serve and worship God.

This doesn't excuse people using other people in the name of God, but in my mind, it's a realistic way to look at life.

[Dot Matrix]

Didn't know that about Luther.

The thing I find as a running theme is that for Centuries we (humans) have been tricked/hooked/fell in the trap from similar things such as

Ego:

My minister here in Georgia told me a great story. He said it is easy to help people and for them to build you up so much in their gratitude that one can get a swollen head. He said what keeps him grounded is what an old minister told him.... He told him, ya know Jesus came to town riding a donkey never in a royal vehicle of pomp and glory. So, when your head gets too big for your shoulders just remember you are just another AZZ that carried Jesus in to town.

Seems people have trouble dividing what God laid on their heart from their own thoughts. It becomes harmful when you are delaring things FOR God and still do not know the difference.

Following men: Following men without question. When they want you to follow in blind obedience without the logic of the Bible, it is time to rethink your position.

And of course other things.... they are just wash, rinse and repeat.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Dot Matrix

[polar bear]

wash, rinse and repeat.

I love it.

I've been through the ringer a few times myself.

Ever seen the movie "Chocolate". It'll make you want to run for the hills from any type of religion

Edited December 28, 2006 by polar bear

[Dot Matrix]

:)