I can loosely tie it into religion in general. This will probably contain some SPOILERS so don't read it if you haven't seen both movies.
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The new Matrix movie added more depth to the matrix itself, and I think it portrays life in a cult more than anything. Morpheus has so much faith in the Oracle and what she has to say, even though it turns out that she is just using them for the goals of the machines. Neo meets up with Kernel Sanders who I guess is supposed to be like either God or Satan, and gives Neo two choices. Naturally, Neo chooses the one that is unexplored, much to the chagrin of the master of the 11 herbs and spices. That was sort of a "mark and avoid" moment of sorts, because it appears to have broken the system or "religion" that the machines have set up for mankind. At that moment I felt like they have truly awakened, as they no longer have the same sense of purpose. Neo is no longer predestined to be "The One" but instead is just a guy who may have more abilities than those around him. I see the vulnerability as a more honest look at life. The once messiah Neo and his prophet Morpheus discover that they were following lies.
I think that the movies are taking a little more Buddhist approach to things than they are Christian, though. Even then, the philosophy is an afterthought. It's just added to make it more cool and mysterious. It's the same reason that they all wear sunglasses inside a building, at night.
I expect that we can't really judge the plot until the last part of the trilogy is released, then we will understand more of what is going on. However, it's all just entertainment, so I don't expect to be enlightened by a movie whose main character started out in "Bill and Ted" movies.
In the end I agree, it's just entertainment. But I think the philosophical and religious elements make it more interesting. I interpreted the meeting with "Col. Sanders" as you call him, (The Architect) as a representation of God. He said his first matrix was perfect and was doomed because of the flaws inherent in man. Sounds like Eden and the flood to me. God made paradise, man rejected it. God gave them another chance and man became so evil, God repented of having made him, and wiped em out and started over with Noah and family.
I agree the realization that the Oracle was just another aspect of the matrix and that the prophecy was a lie is analagous to the experiences of "cult" members like us who have been deceived, but I see aspects of mainstream Christianity, not just cults. The discussion of choice versus predetermination is still raging to this day. CES has adopted the belief that God really isn't ommiscient because they reject the idea that God would knowingly subject mankind to so much suffering in order to create a perfect family. If Neo were John Lynn, he would be one of the Neo's in the monitors in the mainframe room saying, "Bullsh!t!".
I thought there was an element of the more mainstream struggle with the return of Christ in the film's "resolution". Neo said to Morpheus, that if the prophecy was true, the war would be over. Correspondingly, one could say that if the Bible were true, this age would be over. It is common knowledge that the first century Christians beleived Jesus would return in their lifetimes. The reason for this belief lingers in the scriptures. There are statements in the gospels and a few in the Pauline epistles that indicate that salvation included rescue from the coming of the Great Tribulation. (Romans 5:9). Well, if the wrath doesn't come were you really saved from it by your choice of faith or not?
From the perpsective of the first Christians and the Scriptures written to them, if the prophecy were true, the war should be over by now. (Revelation 1:1, 22:6-12).
I got a little tired of the preachy nature of the flick, although I enjoyed it overall. You need to re-watch the first one after you see this one to see how a bunch of seemingly throw-away lines in the original tie in closely to the second.
Example: You see the Architect's Video Wall in the first one. When Neo is first interrogated by Agent Smith, the surveillance camera display is the video wall.
The extras really do tie in to the series. If you didn't see Final Flight of the Osiris at the beginning of Dreamcatcher, or haven't played around with the Enter The Matrix video game, you're missing some interesting parts of the back story. They aren't 100% vital, but they're worth perusing.
The bit at the end of the sequel is problematic, though. It wouldn't surprise me now if they wimped out the ending by making the whole thing a dream--especially given the recurrent dream motif--Nebuchadnezzar, Morpheus, Niobe, etc., etc. If Neo can now affect things in the Real World, that's pushing disbelief just a bit too far.
Oh, did anyone else sit through the 12+ minutes of credits to see the trailer for the third movie? :)-->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
"yes, I did sit thru the 12+ minute of credits to see the trailer for the third movie.
more spoilers more spoilers
Here are some interesting things I was thinking of that maybe you caught or didn't.
- The Oricle. Just another program? Maybe. But remember that in the first movie she said he wasn't the ONE. Maybe Neo isn't or maybe what Morphius said in the first movie is true. Which was basically that the Oricle tells you what you need to here, not neccissarily the "truth"
- The Architech. To be trusted? Maybe he is just another program and not "the God of this Matrix" hee hee.
- Also in the 1st movie, Morphius says there was someone born in the matrix that could do with it what he willed yada yada yada then the Oricle prophecied of the coming of the One. Who is this first guy? Maybe he is actually the author of the matrix.
- I think the "the real world" they think they are in is just another matrix. How else would Neo be able to control things in the real world like he can in the matrix and how else would Agent Smith be able to enter into a person and "possess" them, if you will, in the REAL if he is just a program. Maybe it is just an ulternate matrix, like an ulternate universe.
then yo get into discussing who created the MAtrix and what was before the Matrix and what is real and is there a God and what was around before he created us etc. etc.
Have you noticed that when ever someone said "Jesus" or JC, neo answered as though they were addressing him. Same in the first movie with Trinity, she answered to the exclaimations of "Jesus!" and to "God!"
ANyway, I enjoyed it as you can tell, although, the music this time around was really cheesy.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that shwing.
I didn't like it. I though it was great on special effects, but felt the writing was vague, lacking and did not have a lot of thought or planning behind it. It kind of reminded me of a Flash Gordon Cartoon. The movie even ended in the middle of a scene to try to lure the people into seeing the next episode. Episodes of Star Treck have more plot. Sorry, but that is my opinion.
I look at the controlling rigidness of the first movie as sort a religious hierarchy and some of the things happening in the second movie as more of how the body of Christ operates.
In the first Matrix, there were obviously distinct categories. There were the controllers, the controlled, and the freed. But in the reload, I think the categories are starting to overlap.
For example, I'm not sure that the Oracle is a controlling entity. I'm not even sure that she is what the man in the white coat - the self-professed designer of the Matrix claims she is, nor that he is all that he claims himself to be. The Oracle doesn't seem to be a directly planned entity at all, but an inevitable, necessarily independent entity in a complex mechanical, yet organically evolving matrix. Some program has to be around whose sole objective purpose is to try to foresee future developments. And, as I said, to do its job well, such an entity would have to be objective (non-partisan).
You can't take as gospel everything that the man in the white coat said. He is not infallible. After all, didn't he say that if our hero chose the door to try to save the girl that he would be too late to save her anyway? Okay, technically she died, but still the "designer" seems definitely to have his own agenda and not to be trusted.
Another example of the blending of people and machines is the one who keeps duplicating himself. Something happened to him in the first movie when Neo, a human, entered into him at the end of the movie. He was freed from the controlling matrix entities and took on some human characteristics.
Finally, and this might be stretching it (Dang it, where's the Oracle when you need her), but at the end of reloaded... Okay, let me back up here & get a running start.
All the freed people developed remarkable abilities by the use of their believing minds with the help of machines - computer programs. The One even became better at it than the computer entities themselves while he was plugged into the Matrix. He might not be becoming a machine, but he is definitely showing what were heretofore abilities only manifested by computer-generated entities - AND he learned them through their tutelage.
Now, at the end of reloaded, these abilities start to overflow into the real world. He senses the machines coming and stops them with power energized from his believing mind the same way he once knew how to do it only within the computer generated matrix.
He is evolving to be able to do in the real world what once only computer machine generated entities could do only in a computer generated matrix - and he is continuing to develop beyond that.
I think we have to say that we can no longer look at the Matrix as a Borg-like collection of uniform entities (without any trace of futile resistance and consistently antihuman).
The Matrix has anomalies. The more complex it becomes, the more anomalies it has; thereby, exponentially opening up the number of possibilities in its evolution - and further increasing its complexity.
I think the "designer" will be surprised, and humans and machines will evolve into an integrated organic system with a vast and complex network of communication and information across all boundaries energizing the life of the system.
This picture fits with Quantum theory, and related systems theories of chaos and complexity that are currently working their way into all the physical and social sciences.
The man in the white coat, while advanced, is still somewhat of a throwback to the type of thinking that started with Newton and saturated our philosophy, business, and everyday thinking in the industrial age. He will be bypassed as the system evolves beyond his vision.
I'm not sure who the hell the guy in the white coat really is, but I betcha the story basically develops the way I've said. Wanna bet, wanna bet?
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Mister P-Mosh
I can loosely tie it into religion in general. This will probably contain some SPOILERS so don't read it if you haven't seen both movies.
Spoiler space
Spoiler space
Spoiler space
Spoiler space
Spoiler space
The new Matrix movie added more depth to the matrix itself, and I think it portrays life in a cult more than anything. Morpheus has so much faith in the Oracle and what she has to say, even though it turns out that she is just using them for the goals of the machines. Neo meets up with Kernel Sanders who I guess is supposed to be like either God or Satan, and gives Neo two choices. Naturally, Neo chooses the one that is unexplored, much to the chagrin of the master of the 11 herbs and spices. That was sort of a "mark and avoid" moment of sorts, because it appears to have broken the system or "religion" that the machines have set up for mankind. At that moment I felt like they have truly awakened, as they no longer have the same sense of purpose. Neo is no longer predestined to be "The One" but instead is just a guy who may have more abilities than those around him. I see the vulnerability as a more honest look at life. The once messiah Neo and his prophet Morpheus discover that they were following lies.
I think that the movies are taking a little more Buddhist approach to things than they are Christian, though. Even then, the philosophy is an afterthought. It's just added to make it more cool and mysterious. It's the same reason that they all wear sunglasses inside a building, at night.
I expect that we can't really judge the plot until the last part of the trilogy is released, then we will understand more of what is going on. However, it's all just entertainment, so I don't expect to be enlightened by a movie whose main character started out in "Bill and Ted" movies.
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Jbarrax
Interesting observations Nosh.
SPOILERS HERE;;;;
In the end I agree, it's just entertainment. But I think the philosophical and religious elements make it more interesting. I interpreted the meeting with "Col. Sanders" as you call him, (The Architect) as a representation of God. He said his first matrix was perfect and was doomed because of the flaws inherent in man. Sounds like Eden and the flood to me. God made paradise, man rejected it. God gave them another chance and man became so evil, God repented of having made him, and wiped em out and started over with Noah and family.
I agree the realization that the Oracle was just another aspect of the matrix and that the prophecy was a lie is analagous to the experiences of "cult" members like us who have been deceived, but I see aspects of mainstream Christianity, not just cults. The discussion of choice versus predetermination is still raging to this day. CES has adopted the belief that God really isn't ommiscient because they reject the idea that God would knowingly subject mankind to so much suffering in order to create a perfect family. If Neo were John Lynn, he would be one of the Neo's in the monitors in the mainframe room saying, "Bullsh!t!".
I thought there was an element of the more mainstream struggle with the return of Christ in the film's "resolution". Neo said to Morpheus, that if the prophecy was true, the war would be over. Correspondingly, one could say that if the Bible were true, this age would be over. It is common knowledge that the first century Christians beleived Jesus would return in their lifetimes. The reason for this belief lingers in the scriptures. There are statements in the gospels and a few in the Pauline epistles that indicate that salvation included rescue from the coming of the Great Tribulation. (Romans 5:9). Well, if the wrath doesn't come were you really saved from it by your choice of faith or not?
From the perpsective of the first Christians and the Scriptures written to them, if the prophecy were true, the war should be over by now. (Revelation 1:1, 22:6-12).
Peace
JerryB
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Kit Sober
I thing this was a good beginning -- along the lines of "the least of all saints" (true hearted, though simple-minded).
-- and I think "Walk in the clouds" is along a good heart-line as well.
Hopefully,
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Zixar
I got a little tired of the preachy nature of the flick, although I enjoyed it overall. You need to re-watch the first one after you see this one to see how a bunch of seemingly throw-away lines in the original tie in closely to the second.
Example: You see the Architect's Video Wall in the first one. When Neo is first interrogated by Agent Smith, the surveillance camera display is the video wall.
The extras really do tie in to the series. If you didn't see Final Flight of the Osiris at the beginning of Dreamcatcher, or haven't played around with the Enter The Matrix video game, you're missing some interesting parts of the back story. They aren't 100% vital, but they're worth perusing.
The bit at the end of the sequel is problematic, though. It wouldn't surprise me now if they wimped out the ending by making the whole thing a dream--especially given the recurrent dream motif--Nebuchadnezzar, Morpheus, Niobe, etc., etc. If Neo can now affect things in the Real World, that's pushing disbelief just a bit too far.
Oh, did anyone else sit through the 12+ minutes of credits to see the trailer for the third movie?
:)-->
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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lindyhopper
The fool hath said in his heart...
"yes, I did sit thru the 12+ minute of credits to see the trailer for the third movie.
more spoilers more spoilers
Here are some interesting things I was thinking of that maybe you caught or didn't.
- The Oricle. Just another program? Maybe. But remember that in the first movie she said he wasn't the ONE. Maybe Neo isn't or maybe what Morphius said in the first movie is true. Which was basically that the Oricle tells you what you need to here, not neccissarily the "truth"
- The Architech. To be trusted? Maybe he is just another program and not "the God of this Matrix" hee hee.
- Also in the 1st movie, Morphius says there was someone born in the matrix that could do with it what he willed yada yada yada then the Oricle prophecied of the coming of the One. Who is this first guy? Maybe he is actually the author of the matrix.
- I think the "the real world" they think they are in is just another matrix. How else would Neo be able to control things in the real world like he can in the matrix and how else would Agent Smith be able to enter into a person and "possess" them, if you will, in the REAL if he is just a program. Maybe it is just an ulternate matrix, like an ulternate universe.
then yo get into discussing who created the MAtrix and what was before the Matrix and what is real and is there a God and what was around before he created us etc. etc.
Have you noticed that when ever someone said "Jesus" or JC, neo answered as though they were addressing him. Same in the first movie with Trinity, she answered to the exclaimations of "Jesus!" and to "God!"
ANyway, I enjoyed it as you can tell, although, the music this time around was really cheesy.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that shwing.
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Jbarrax
I didn't notice that Neo and Trinity were answering oaths. That's kind of annoying, although not surprising. Definitely gotta watch it again.
JerryB
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Mark Sanguinetti
I didn't like it. I though it was great on special effects, but felt the writing was vague, lacking and did not have a lot of thought or planning behind it. It kind of reminded me of a Flash Gordon Cartoon. The movie even ended in the middle of a scene to try to lure the people into seeing the next episode. Episodes of Star Treck have more plot. Sorry, but that is my opinion.
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Tom
I look at the controlling rigidness of the first movie as sort a religious hierarchy and some of the things happening in the second movie as more of how the body of Christ operates.
In the first Matrix, there were obviously distinct categories. There were the controllers, the controlled, and the freed. But in the reload, I think the categories are starting to overlap.
For example, I'm not sure that the Oracle is a controlling entity. I'm not even sure that she is what the man in the white coat - the self-professed designer of the Matrix claims she is, nor that he is all that he claims himself to be. The Oracle doesn't seem to be a directly planned entity at all, but an inevitable, necessarily independent entity in a complex mechanical, yet organically evolving matrix. Some program has to be around whose sole objective purpose is to try to foresee future developments. And, as I said, to do its job well, such an entity would have to be objective (non-partisan).
You can't take as gospel everything that the man in the white coat said. He is not infallible. After all, didn't he say that if our hero chose the door to try to save the girl that he would be too late to save her anyway? Okay, technically she died, but still the "designer" seems definitely to have his own agenda and not to be trusted.
Another example of the blending of people and machines is the one who keeps duplicating himself. Something happened to him in the first movie when Neo, a human, entered into him at the end of the movie. He was freed from the controlling matrix entities and took on some human characteristics.
Finally, and this might be stretching it (Dang it, where's the Oracle when you need her), but at the end of reloaded... Okay, let me back up here & get a running start.
All the freed people developed remarkable abilities by the use of their believing minds with the help of machines - computer programs. The One even became better at it than the computer entities themselves while he was plugged into the Matrix. He might not be becoming a machine, but he is definitely showing what were heretofore abilities only manifested by computer-generated entities - AND he learned them through their tutelage.
Now, at the end of reloaded, these abilities start to overflow into the real world. He senses the machines coming and stops them with power energized from his believing mind the same way he once knew how to do it only within the computer generated matrix.
He is evolving to be able to do in the real world what once only computer machine generated entities could do only in a computer generated matrix - and he is continuing to develop beyond that.
I think we have to say that we can no longer look at the Matrix as a Borg-like collection of uniform entities (without any trace of futile resistance and consistently antihuman).
The Matrix has anomalies. The more complex it becomes, the more anomalies it has; thereby, exponentially opening up the number of possibilities in its evolution - and further increasing its complexity.
I think the "designer" will be surprised, and humans and machines will evolve into an integrated organic system with a vast and complex network of communication and information across all boundaries energizing the life of the system.
This picture fits with Quantum theory, and related systems theories of chaos and complexity that are currently working their way into all the physical and social sciences.
The man in the white coat, while advanced, is still somewhat of a throwback to the type of thinking that started with Newton and saturated our philosophy, business, and everyday thinking in the industrial age. He will be bypassed as the system evolves beyond his vision.
I'm not sure who the hell the guy in the white coat really is, but I betcha the story basically develops the way I've said. Wanna bet, wanna bet?
Tom
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Mister P-Mosh
I'm hoping that The Animatrix will make it onto Disc 2 of the boxed set of The Matrix Reloaded.
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