to add...i think perhaps its worth noting that the words "suffering" and "pain" are both used for the same thing at times...as well as used quite differently ... english is such pirate's booty, ya know
and thanks for adding those links...i think it helps these kinds of threads a lot
...plz feel free to add more as you find them, as you feel that they apply
...
hi RachelYsrael...welcome to the cafe
didnt really start this thread because there is something specific that i want to know
the invitation is to talk about the poll i started, which addresses pretty basic ways of being...
...meaning
...relatedness
...forgiveness
...and hope
not sure you need me to tell you what these words mean to you
but feel free to take a stab at explaining how you define them...and how you see (and have seen) them in life
or perhaps, to be doctrinal about it, point out some existing practices, methods, theories, theologies, literature, traditions or schools of thought that address them
God knows i could probably bore most of you to tears for weeks with my opinions and experiences on the matters
..but that usually only seems to kill the thread quite quickly...which is never my intention
but i will contribute as i can...usually based on what is inspired by responses
i suppose one could even write about the value of having a poll in regards to such a sensitive topic as spiritual pain and suffering
...
and perhaps as a way of pre-conversation (which i think is helpful, though often missing from these hypertextual "conversations")
i wonder how you (or anyone else) thinks/feels we might have a written conversation about such things
i guess what i am asking now is how to proceed, as a manner of form, or method...in this real virtual written way
...asking useful questions such as: how might we agree to proceed in our reasoning together here about the topic at hand?
but i suppose this practice of asking such open questions could be useful for just about any topic, any thread
plz feel free to let me know if i have not been clear here
have fun my friend when your world give you time we are all ways blessed reading your insight
a few primers that might help...
- did you participate in the poll? yes I voted
- if not, why?
- if so, was it helpful? yes it got me to think which was fun
- did you learn anything new about yourself? everyday it seems like I a never ending thing I just need a reason to open up to new ideals thanks for given me one
- do you think such questions might be useful in the future?yes questions are all ways useful to me even if I am afraid to answer some times
- what other questions might we ask about the poll? this might be a long list but I will try
1. how far do you take trusting God?
2. which questions are two private for you to answer ?
3. when does hate become love?
4. when does money hold love back?
5. can you be in your body while outside your body at the same time which in mind 2 Corinthians 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."
why couldn't Paul had knew Christ both ways
6. what are the limits of Spirit or where does flesh end and spirit begin"
I could go on for hours on questions because I love to asked myself questions to think about anything while trying to keep things peaceful but I love even biger to talk at or two God by questions
- how might we proceed in reasoning together in this thread?
it depends on far people are willing to go out side the normal box of religion
To be honest, I didn't do the poll. It seemed to relate more to Way like beliefs--hope, forgiveness, reconcilliation-- which I no longer hold.
Relatedness...not sure how you define that . Empathy? Shared experience? We are all children of the goddess, composed of star particles?? We traveled through a past life together?
I wasn't sure what the section on reconcilliation meant. Reconcile with who? The only area in my life where I have a deep separation are with those that I don't trust to have in my life as per their previous treatment of me and my family, those I deem as dangerous to my or my family in some way.
I don't spend alot of time thinking about forgiveness. Those I love and have relationships with, forgiveness just happens as you work things out. Those I have severed connections with--I don't care about forgiving them, nor do I have a doctrinal directive to try to, and they are out of my life for good reasons. I do not feel condemnation or spiritually lack because I haven't forgiven them. I don't have a 'well, we all break fellowship,' attitude.
I don't believe in sinful man, sin nature, original sin etc so forgiveness for me from a deity is not part of my beliefs.
As I posted in the other thread, I don't think the negative emotions are bad. I think they are our natural warning system and should be examined.
Sometimes the pleas for forgiveness bother me, because I can see how controlling people can manipulate that doctrine to their advantage so they can remain in power over people. And some posters seem to equate forgiveness with 'Shut Up!'
just a quick comment on something you wrote, Bramble...
it seems to me that notions such as hope, forgiveness, and reconciliation have predated TWi by hundreds and thousands of years
and perhaps with equivalent words for said notions in just about every language known to man
and it seems more and more difficult to write anything these days without using a word that's been tarnished by some negative (or merely specific) experience
where public writing in a society with a half dozen worldviews is likely to draw quite a mixed response...making it nearly impossible to communicate much at all
in modern english alone, i could probably rewrite that poll with a half dozen different parallel word sets and get a completely different array of responses
and so sometimes i wonder if this is not a major major element of our modern dilemna...how like never before we have 20 different english languages in play at once...causing no end to confusion, and people hungry for finding a common form of language
...
i think that an important aspect of relatedness has a lot to do with this...finding a common language...more than just finding one's personal sense of meaning, but finding a shared meaning (i.e. friendship)...where my interior and your interior "see" each other, and i know that you know what i mean, and you know that i know what you mean
...
but overall, i think the words of the poll were meant to be responded to in whatever way you see fit
no pre-existing dogma...but merely people relating to the notions suggested by those words
while i have come to appreciate such words as "gauge" in the context of spiritual or doctrinal discussions...i also understand how many do not
and for a variety of reasons, too...as we have so many different cultural values at play in the world
i imagine what has been called a post-modernist pluralistic view might have the most trouble with such notions
but i'll say that there sure seems a sense of interior technology at play in the heart of all religious traditions...science of mind, science of heart, science of will, science of awareness, etc...
just as we exercise our bodies and fiddle with gadgets in the exterior world, there are structures and details and mechanisms in the interior world...like dreamwork, like breathwork
a disciple of jesus, for example, would be one who was disclipined by practicing what, exactly? what techniques? what medium? what raw material is being examined?
so often the doctrinal conversation is about theological concepts and myths and beliefs, but rarely about actual practices that transform one's soul...or actual behavior that uplifts one's perspectives
i guess that is what the poll is partially about...an actual practice of introspection...a device...a ruler...a gauge...a way to map our own view of our own interior self
a tool that is not to be confused with the actual territory being measured, of course....and not to be mistaken as the only toy in the box
but simply a tool, or system, created from a synthesis of contemplative and psychological schools of thought
much like the 12 step program...12 levers ...12 koans...12 proverbs ... like 12 rungs on the ladder of wisdom to be climbed up and down
ladders, gauges, techniques, technologies, disciples, disciplines, doctrines, methods, traditions, skills, tools, recipes for making spiritual bread...
how is it that so many have come to reject the capacity to measure the depth and span of soul?
what is it that we are to see in a mirror, anyway, that helps us to recognize that which we see?
is there not a radical array of textures and contours and details of the inner self? imprints and impressions and grooves that make us tick on the outside?
just where are those dark places that I am to shine light of my awareness and attention?
what is life like if we forget these inner details are there? do they somehow go away?
or do we carry on as always...driven by inner works largely unknown to us?
what would happen if a culture teaches us from youth to ignore and avoid the interior of one's own self?
what would happen if a culture teaches us to focus only on the interior?
well, my friend, i didnt say "gauge" was limiting...i think its a sound way to speak of a poll like that
cuz much like a gauge, the poll helps us be a little more precise about matters going on "under the hood"
speaking of engines...i have found how those 4 spiritual pains may line up with the 4 horsemen of the Book of Rev
as if the "horsemen" represent the "natural drives" of every person ... (which also plays out in greater world events, of course...being that the world is made up of masses of people driven by these 4 natural forces)
1 = meaning...1st person subjective view...the realm of ego and self interest and what i find beautiful (or not)...I, me and mine...represented by the single minded self-interested crusader..and the lion
2 = relatedness...2nd person intersubjective view....the realm of culture and conversation and what we find good (or not)...you, us and we...represented by the one who reacts..and the herd
3 = forgiveness...3rd person objective view...the realm of behavior and actions and physics and what is true (or not)...this, it, he, she, they and them...represented by industry and the tool..and the monkey
4 = hope...4th person interobjective view...the realm of systems and processes...these, its, hes and shes...represented by the last enemy to be destroyed (by love)...and the eagle (liberation)
this kind of quadralateral affair also lines up with what a lot of other traditions have to say about the workings of self, as well...as if these 4 corners of the human self are perennial notions that have emerged in all languages...in all times
im guessing they may even predate humanity, which the book of rev seems to agree...in how each horsemen is aknowledged by an animal, perhaps hinting at how even the higher animals have their own senses of meaningfulness, relatedness, forgiveness, and hopefulness...which is where we got them
of course..none of this addresses the next 3 "seals" of the book of rev...but im guessing these first four are plenty to chew on
how is it that so many have come to reject the capacity to measure the depth and span of soul?
what is it that we are to see in a mirror, anyway, that helps us to recognize that which we see?
is there not a radical array of textures and contours and details of the inner self? imprints and impressions and grooves that make us tick on the outside?
just where are those dark places that I am to shine light of my awareness and attention?
what is life like if we forget these inner details are there? do they somehow go away?
or do we carry on as always...driven by inner works largely unknown to us?
what would happen if a culture teaches us from youth to ignore and avoid the interior of one's own self?
what would happen if a culture teaches us to focus only on the interior?
Well, there's another 'poll' I'd say.
And yeah the four, a compass that is used all the time yet not recognized as actual inner workings of space of mind. The quest-ion-s, the issues of the heart, 4 for the earth, man, soul.
RachelYsrael, if yer still around, im just wondering if my response to your post (or anything else in this thread) provided an answer.
Roy...as always, your combination of a big heart and curious mind is refreshing to me. I'm not surprised at all that you are able to go on for hours with questions. I have come to feel that the primary thing distinguishing "word of wisdom" from "word of knowledge" ...is how one of them always ends with a question mark...and the other with a period. Doesnt seem hard to figure which can be associated with "words of wisdom"...ask any child who wishes to be wise.
maybe my friend they are just reading like I have been doing these last few days in doctrine trying to know what to say wise but you know me foolish things are great too
And thank you for the nice loving words
but back to the questions part
let me add a few for people to think about
1. have you ever look at the inside of your eye lid ?
2. we normally look out from our eyes but have you ever tried to look inward from your eyes?
3. do you only asked God questions that make you look good or will you asked anything like why men are man and not women or women are women not men?
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cman
I'm not sure many know what you are saying Sirg.
I could use a few lessons myself.
Here's some links to read to get ideas.
But mostly these ideas will come,
and have come from those ready to give them.
http://www.google.com/search?q=spiritual+p...lient=firefox-a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_and_nociception
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nociceptor
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=spir...pain&gwp=13
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RachelYsrael
I would love to participate, but.
I don't know what you are talking about. Please start from scratch and tell me what it is you want to know, here in this new thread.
Rachel
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sirguessalot
cman...
to add...i think perhaps its worth noting that the words "suffering" and "pain" are both used for the same thing at times...as well as used quite differently ... english is such pirate's booty, ya know
and thanks for adding those links...i think it helps these kinds of threads a lot
...plz feel free to add more as you find them, as you feel that they apply
...
hi RachelYsrael...welcome to the cafe
didnt really start this thread because there is something specific that i want to know
the invitation is to talk about the poll i started, which addresses pretty basic ways of being...
...meaning
...relatedness
...forgiveness
...and hope
not sure you need me to tell you what these words mean to you
but feel free to take a stab at explaining how you define them...and how you see (and have seen) them in life
or perhaps, to be doctrinal about it, point out some existing practices, methods, theories, theologies, literature, traditions or schools of thought that address them
God knows i could probably bore most of you to tears for weeks with my opinions and experiences on the matters
..but that usually only seems to kill the thread quite quickly...which is never my intention
but i will contribute as i can...usually based on what is inspired by responses
i suppose one could even write about the value of having a poll in regards to such a sensitive topic as spiritual pain and suffering
...
and perhaps as a way of pre-conversation (which i think is helpful, though often missing from these hypertextual "conversations")
i wonder how you (or anyone else) thinks/feels we might have a written conversation about such things
i guess what i am asking now is how to proceed, as a manner of form, or method...in this real virtual written way
...asking useful questions such as: how might we agree to proceed in our reasoning together here about the topic at hand?
but i suppose this practice of asking such open questions could be useful for just about any topic, any thread
plz feel free to let me know if i have not been clear here
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year2027
God firstly
Beloved Todd or sirguessalot'
Godly loves you my dear friend
lets see
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Bramble
To be honest, I didn't do the poll. It seemed to relate more to Way like beliefs--hope, forgiveness, reconcilliation-- which I no longer hold.
Relatedness...not sure how you define that . Empathy? Shared experience? We are all children of the goddess, composed of star particles?? We traveled through a past life together?
I wasn't sure what the section on reconcilliation meant. Reconcile with who? The only area in my life where I have a deep separation are with those that I don't trust to have in my life as per their previous treatment of me and my family, those I deem as dangerous to my or my family in some way.
I don't spend alot of time thinking about forgiveness. Those I love and have relationships with, forgiveness just happens as you work things out. Those I have severed connections with--I don't care about forgiving them, nor do I have a doctrinal directive to try to, and they are out of my life for good reasons. I do not feel condemnation or spiritually lack because I haven't forgiven them. I don't have a 'well, we all break fellowship,' attitude.
I don't believe in sinful man, sin nature, original sin etc so forgiveness for me from a deity is not part of my beliefs.
As I posted in the other thread, I don't think the negative emotions are bad. I think they are our natural warning system and should be examined.
Sometimes the pleas for forgiveness bother me, because I can see how controlling people can manipulate that doctrine to their advantage so they can remain in power over people. And some posters seem to equate forgiveness with 'Shut Up!'
But them I spent most of my adult life in a cult.
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sirguessalot
just a quick comment on something you wrote, Bramble...
it seems to me that notions such as hope, forgiveness, and reconciliation have predated TWi by hundreds and thousands of years
and perhaps with equivalent words for said notions in just about every language known to man
and it seems more and more difficult to write anything these days without using a word that's been tarnished by some negative (or merely specific) experience
where public writing in a society with a half dozen worldviews is likely to draw quite a mixed response...making it nearly impossible to communicate much at all
in modern english alone, i could probably rewrite that poll with a half dozen different parallel word sets and get a completely different array of responses
and so sometimes i wonder if this is not a major major element of our modern dilemna...how like never before we have 20 different english languages in play at once...causing no end to confusion, and people hungry for finding a common form of language
...
i think that an important aspect of relatedness has a lot to do with this...finding a common language...more than just finding one's personal sense of meaning, but finding a shared meaning (i.e. friendship)...where my interior and your interior "see" each other, and i know that you know what i mean, and you know that i know what you mean
...
but overall, i think the words of the poll were meant to be responded to in whatever way you see fit
no pre-existing dogma...but merely people relating to the notions suggested by those words
i dunno...i'll stop there i guess
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cman
To me it (the poll and more then the poll-what it activates in the mind) is a sense of self expression.
And how we see ourselves being expressed from outside of that expression, demeanor, manor of thought, ways of relating, and many such terms.
How do we do with 'freedom'?
Freedom of thought and awareness.
I think it's unlimited.
But do we see ourselves as unlimited in expression and thought?
Though we wouldn't know a limit till we hit one.
Then the poll makes some sense.
What is it that hinders binds and stops us.
What is it that let's us be more free in many aspects of life.
Kind of a freedom and bondage gauge.
And exploring rather then a right or wrong approach.
Because I think it's just not that black white but as colorful as Roy's post.
Which I loved by the way, certainly expressing a wide spectrum of spiritual pain and suffering.
Which is not wrong to go through, every one does I believe.
It's just suppressed at times. And that's right too.
Cause sometimes it has to be and sometimes it needs some room to breath.
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cman
Did I kill a thread again?
Need some spiritual relief for this pain and suffering.
Is it all like we were taught?
We honk the friggin horn?
We start the car, we do it all?
Or is there something that can be done-
beyond ourselves.......
:ph34r:
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RachelYsrael
Step 1: I am powerless over ______________________and only a power greater than myself can...
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year2027
God first
Beloved cman
God loves you my dear friend
You have blessed my hearts thanks
No I am sure you did not kill it but people are just thinking give them time
and Todd is busy some times and I am sure he will get back to us but in the mean time we can talk at each other
opening up new doors of discoverly
like the smell of space siting there looking at us as we look in the mirrow in the morning
have you ever listen to your hand open and close because as we get older it gets easier the hear the muscles tighten and losen
but they all ways made sounds we just need a little oil now or at least I do
glad to visit you in this world of wires twisted together to keep things flowing from one port to the next
good to speak the language of net with you
sure glad this computer is interpreting the words of light speed net back to my language
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
God first
Beloved Rachel
God loves you my dear friend
good morning or after noon depending what you call it
I love reading you insight my friend
yes even a tread that seems to be dead unless its lock we can bring new life to it
looks like this tread has new life or life from a different point of view
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sirguessalot
while i have come to appreciate such words as "gauge" in the context of spiritual or doctrinal discussions...i also understand how many do not
and for a variety of reasons, too...as we have so many different cultural values at play in the world
i imagine what has been called a post-modernist pluralistic view might have the most trouble with such notions
but i'll say that there sure seems a sense of interior technology at play in the heart of all religious traditions...science of mind, science of heart, science of will, science of awareness, etc...
just as we exercise our bodies and fiddle with gadgets in the exterior world, there are structures and details and mechanisms in the interior world...like dreamwork, like breathwork
a disciple of jesus, for example, would be one who was disclipined by practicing what, exactly? what techniques? what medium? what raw material is being examined?
so often the doctrinal conversation is about theological concepts and myths and beliefs, but rarely about actual practices that transform one's soul...or actual behavior that uplifts one's perspectives
i guess that is what the poll is partially about...an actual practice of introspection...a device...a ruler...a gauge...a way to map our own view of our own interior self
a tool that is not to be confused with the actual territory being measured, of course....and not to be mistaken as the only toy in the box
but simply a tool, or system, created from a synthesis of contemplative and psychological schools of thought
much like the 12 step program...12 levers ...12 koans...12 proverbs ... like 12 rungs on the ladder of wisdom to be climbed up and down
ladders, gauges, techniques, technologies, disciples, disciplines, doctrines, methods, traditions, skills, tools, recipes for making spiritual bread...
how is it that so many have come to reject the capacity to measure the depth and span of soul?
what is it that we are to see in a mirror, anyway, that helps us to recognize that which we see?
is there not a radical array of textures and contours and details of the inner self? imprints and impressions and grooves that make us tick on the outside?
just where are those dark places that I am to shine light of my awareness and attention?
what is life like if we forget these inner details are there? do they somehow go away?
or do we carry on as always...driven by inner works largely unknown to us?
what would happen if a culture teaches us from youth to ignore and avoid the interior of one's own self?
what would happen if a culture teaches us to focus only on the interior?
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cman
Hi Rachel,
I wasn't really thinking of step one.
Though it would fit in here somewhere I'm sure.
Everything is connected in one way or another.
Todd and Roy,
Thanks, I'll have to get back on this soon.
You both put lots on the table.
But right now I'm at work, a different table I reckon.
Yeah I suppose 'gauge' would be quite limiting.
But I didn't mean it as some sort of up or down.
But actually quite a few directions and places.
None really of themselves being more then another.
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sirguessalot
well, my friend, i didnt say "gauge" was limiting...i think its a sound way to speak of a poll like that
cuz much like a gauge, the poll helps us be a little more precise about matters going on "under the hood"
speaking of engines...i have found how those 4 spiritual pains may line up with the 4 horsemen of the Book of Rev
as if the "horsemen" represent the "natural drives" of every person ... (which also plays out in greater world events, of course...being that the world is made up of masses of people driven by these 4 natural forces)
1 = meaning...1st person subjective view...the realm of ego and self interest and what i find beautiful (or not)...I, me and mine...represented by the single minded self-interested crusader..and the lion
2 = relatedness...2nd person intersubjective view....the realm of culture and conversation and what we find good (or not)...you, us and we...represented by the one who reacts..and the herd
3 = forgiveness...3rd person objective view...the realm of behavior and actions and physics and what is true (or not)...this, it, he, she, they and them...represented by industry and the tool..and the monkey
4 = hope...4th person interobjective view...the realm of systems and processes...these, its, hes and shes...represented by the last enemy to be destroyed (by love)...and the eagle (liberation)
this kind of quadralateral affair also lines up with what a lot of other traditions have to say about the workings of self, as well...as if these 4 corners of the human self are perennial notions that have emerged in all languages...in all times
im guessing they may even predate humanity, which the book of rev seems to agree...in how each horsemen is aknowledged by an animal, perhaps hinting at how even the higher animals have their own senses of meaningfulness, relatedness, forgiveness, and hopefulness...which is where we got them
of course..none of this addresses the next 3 "seals" of the book of rev...but im guessing these first four are plenty to chew on
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cman
Well, there's another 'poll' I'd say.
And yeah the four, a compass that is used all the time yet not recognized as actual inner workings of space of mind. The quest-ion-s, the issues of the heart, 4 for the earth, man, soul.
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sirguessalot
RachelYsrael, if yer still around, im just wondering if my response to your post (or anything else in this thread) provided an answer.
Roy...as always, your combination of a big heart and curious mind is refreshing to me. I'm not surprised at all that you are able to go on for hours with questions. I have come to feel that the primary thing distinguishing "word of wisdom" from "word of knowledge" ...is how one of them always ends with a question mark...and the other with a period. Doesnt seem hard to figure which can be associated with "words of wisdom"...ask any child who wishes to be wise.
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sirguessalot
a simple observation...
until i posted this thread, seems there was over a dozen posts per day in these doctrinal forums
folks were actively arguing and debating doctrines and theologies and such
so why do i feel like i farted in a church?
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year2027
God first
Beloved Todd and sirguessalot
God loves you my dear friend
maybe my friend they are just reading like I have been doing these last few days in doctrine trying to know what to say wise but you know me foolish things are great too
And thank you for the nice loving words
but back to the questions part
let me add a few for people to think about
1. have you ever look at the inside of your eye lid ?
2. we normally look out from our eyes but have you ever tried to look inward from your eyes?
3. do you only asked God questions that make you look good or will you asked anything like why men are man and not women or women are women not men?
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
"......all spiritual pain is ultimately related to the values of forgiveness, meaning, relatedness and hope......"
-Sacred Art of Living
Those who have looked up some of this stuff know a bit more.
and those who are willing to to face this pain or suffering will reap the benefits of the glory
one must be honest enough to to say 'i don't knoe' or 'i can't see it'
in order to look for answers or find the knowledge they seek
we can trick our mind into not facing the true realities that lay before us
or slowly start looking around at what is really happening to us and in us and with us
cause if we don't, the state of the mind will panic or end in depression
hopelessness, bitter detached from most everything, and rather po'ed
ya know?
why is it that we look at the things seen and evaluate the unseen by that?
shouldn't it be the other way around?
or a mixture, like paul said - tongues of men and angels.....
there is no religion, belief or standard that we have made ourselves
in the end only one holds the keyS and they will be used
to unlock the healing that is so neccessary
those four things cannot be outwitted, out gunned or out smarted
they are with us to stay and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it
they can be surpressed and ignored but they won't go away......
they will be faced head on with love
i wonder if anyone looked up the 12 proverbs?
the twelve rungs, there are sets of 12 also.....
12 is used to frame our thoughts
so that they can be released from the frame
though it just really widens as the eyes open more
i do hope the four winds blow
and those seals be opened up more
the one who sealed us is the one to open them
filtering in, and finally pushing out from inside
sneaking in as a thief and the storm coming out
a painful birthing process, so to speak
but soon to be joy that a child is born
just sayin, soes ya might get an idea of what to expect
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year2027
God first
Beloved friends
God loves you my dear friend
just moving up
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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