"Maturity" seems like another way of saying things like "evolution," "growth," "transformation," and "development." As such, maturity is the nature of life and reality. As if everything is either "on the move" or trying to be.
For those who claim Jesus Christ to be the model of maturity, spiritual or otherwise, the 7 seals of The Book of Revelation might be worth comparing to the work of the developmentalists of the last century...moral-development, cognitive-development, ego-development, faith-development, needs-development, etc...
As if, with every "seal" that is broken, another filter is removed, and we are that much more "awake," and in need of re-interpreting everything once again.
That wasn't exactly what I meant, Roy. My wife's name is Elizabeth, and when our grand-daughter was too young to say "Elizabeth", she said something very much like "LizzyBuzz". That just stuck as my nickname for her. My wife, in the God designed manner of all wives everywhere, reminds me regularly that I ought to grow up a little more
I DID like the video you linked to very much! You seem to draw on such a wide variety of sources. I like that, too!
you ask the question are you really on the last seal or is there a real last
everybody thinks they are maturity bur are they?
with love and a holy kiss Roy
a quick note dear brother, to say i have been trying to respond to these very potent (and potentially "dangerous") questions in spite of the "yes or no" way they were asked, yet this rapidly became a small book of thoughts on the matter...too lengthy for posting here.
so both "yes and no" and "neither yes nor no" will have to suffice for now for all three.
...and i'll point back to the "...might be worth comparing to..." of my original response.
The relation between faith and morality is being looked at again in the light of these discussions. The present time is an exciting and stimulating one. Interdisciplinary studies in philosophy, theology, and the social sciences are being carried out at a very high level around the theme of human transformation, and the practical work of ministry will be advanced because of it. Transformation is a central theme of Christian life, as to both faith and morals. New explorations of its meaning and dynamics are shedding light on our condition and our tasks.
His work with Faith research is of great importance to the study of transpersonal psychology in that, he posits, faith (moreso than religion, or belief) "is the most fundamental category in the human quest for relation to transcendence." And the stages of faith development, regardless of where one finds them, or in what religious context, are amazingly uniform. Faith to Fowler is a holistic orientation, and is concerned with the individual's relatedness to that which is universal, even though the religious context be relative, even arbitrary. Fowler identifies six stages through which pilgrim of faith invariably travels.
* Stage 0 – "Primal or Undifferentiated" faith (birth to 2 years), is characterized by an early learning of the safety of their environment (i.e. warm, safe and secure vs. hurt, neglect and abuse). If consistent nurturance is experienced, one will develop a sense of trust and safety about the universe and the divine. Conversely, negative experiences will cause one to develop distrust with the universe and the divine. Transition to the next stage begins with integration of thought and languages which facilitates the use of symbols in speech and play.
* Stage 1 – "Intuitive-Projective" faith (ages of three to seven), is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious.
* Stage 2 – "Mythic-Literal" faith (mostly in school children), stage two persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their deities are almost always anthropomorphic.
* Stage 3 – "Synthetic-Conventional" faith (arising in adolescence) characterized by conformity
* Stage 4 – "Individuative-Reflective" faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties) a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for their beliefs and feelings.
* Stage 5 – "Conjunctive" faith (mid-life crisis) acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems
* Stage 6 – "Universalizing" faith, or what some might call "enlightenment".
a few verses that seem to reflect the developmental nature of faith...
Psalms 12:6...The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Proverbs 24:16...For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
1 Peter 1:7-9...That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 Corinthians 13:10-11...But when that which is perfect (teleios) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Hebrews 5:12-14...For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (teleios), even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
a few more...words in bold seem particularly related to measuring stages of maturity and worth looking at in the Strong's...which you can see following the hotlinks...
Romans 12:3... For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
2 Corinthians 10:15...Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly
Ephesians 4:13...Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (Teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
of course, looking into the wider context of each is even more illuminating, especially if the writer really was writing about how to live and be with each other in light of a developmental nature of faith. imho, developmental maps like Fowler's can not only go a long way to confirm that Jesus Christ and the writers of scripture were mature enough to recognize this, or to help Christians understand where faith can get stuck, but that it is more than ok for our faith to "fall apart" from time to time...in fact, this is necessary in order to become wise.
imho...all this also highlights the limits (and perhaps even "unscriptural" basis) of oversimplified black-and-white "faith or no-faith" models...aka one is "on or off the word"…or one “has or does not have faith”...and reminds us of the wisdom behind teaching our children well…and even cultivating a cultural story that gives us permission to change, even radically if we must…rather than the “permanent childhood” we currently adore…and this sense of ”I want you to stay exactly who you are forever.”
perhaps one can see where the faith of vpw/twi/pfal fits in all this, for example...and not to condemn or judge vpw/twi more than they already are, but to learn...perhaps even empower us to help those stuck there to grow in faith wherever we may meet them...if we are lucky not to be stuck the same way.
twi's extreme degree of mistrust of the world, for example..."satan and devil spirits everywhere plotting our demise"...is perhaps the result of a common experience most all of us had at "stage 0"...simply for being born in a century of industrialized and over-marketed terror and anxiety. Even though we are not likely to get stuck at "stage 0," the way are born these days certainly seems to color our later interpretations of life...including other forms of paranoia and extreme suspicion outside of a Christian context.
"stage 1" reminds me of why leaders like vpw are unable to curb the most base desires...from having no filter for the unconscious drives pouring into us from simply being the spiritual human animals we are...and projecting their own failures and limitations onto the rest of the world. If a child does not develop beyond this kind of faith, we still grow into adults, and yet remain at "stage 1" til the end of our life....aka tyrants and oppressors.
and while stage 2 is more developed than stage 1, stage 1 is more driven to rise to the top in leadership...and both stage 2 and 3 are known to follow stage 1 leaders, due to the parental persona the leaders project, household/brotherhood/familial bonding they themselves lack, and a need for others to conform to their will. sound familiar?
and while many who reach "stage 4" also drop the christian language for a new worldview, it seems mostly because there are far fewer organized "stage 4" christian views (and beyond) in the world...though there are still plenty...here at gsc, and elswhere. …but as if they are somehow “hidden by the woods” ...or even merely inaccessible due to the limits of an economic/educational system...or simply buried by mountains of empty information and disinformation...or out of reach due to cynicism and plain ole exhaustion.
There is also a strong rejection of stagelike development today, both in and out of Christianity, and especially by faith between stage 4 and 5...and this is ironically perhaps one of the leading causes of childish (not childlike) adults in charge of the world. If we reject development of morality, or development of subjectivity…what else will we do but fail to support the develop of such? More and more, we seem to support and promote and celebrate immature values and behavior...which is perhaps a large part of what the ancient visionaries predicted.
btw...i only use words like "stage" and such in this instance because of Fowler's language...and because its partially useful. But I personally prefer to think of "stages" in terms of musical progression, prismatic progression, and punctuated equilibriums...and like those radical shifts we see in the womb. And i also feel that models like Fowler's are best understood as being a general "view from 100 miles up"...and lacks the perfectly messy details of the terrain that are also here...that make us all so unique and complex...even organic. Different personality types grow through the same stages in very different ways...so while development is critical to discern stages of growth...there is a danger of overgeneralization without an equal recognition of different types of critters we are.
to add...imho, Fowler's stage 6 is lacking, and can be further divided into 6 and 7...perhaps mostly due to him not having many examples to consider the variations in the upper atmospheres...but also because other developmentalists have.
and...if the 7 seals are any indication of Jesus Christ's curriculum and measure of faith...6 is simply not enough.
i'm not much into talking about who is where and such, except in a very general sense...and i trust everyone can read about this kind of stuff and chew on them as possibilities long before coming to conclusions, and hopefully handle it all lightly for awhile...
...but for what its worth brother...what you wrote here:
while see myself on stage one or less
does not seem very likely if you wrote it...or this:
i see all those stages and I am bless you share them
in fact, i doubt very many in Fowler's stage 1 or less are even able to post at the gsc. due to things like not having much of a sense of self, not having words, not having a moral reason to do so, and basically not having much to say to anyone else at all.
i think its helpful to understand that aspects of earlier stages of faith continue as we grow into later stages...which can sometimes give the impression that we have not grown beyond them because those qualities are still alive and well. this often happens to me whenever i read through any developmental map, seeing the qualities of early stages of my life still working in my self...childhood issues and such.
i would even go as far as to clarify that my example of vpw reflecting stage 1 is less about him being fully at that stage, but that regardless of what stage he was at, the qualities of his stage 1 experience somehow dominated his leadership style.
ok...i think i'm following you better now, Roy...while it is valid to look at such stages is as the path of becoming an adult, or a grown-up, or somehow wise...or becoming spiritually mature...
...an even bigger picture seems to be...that the seven seals are like stages of gestation, and we are like babes developing in the womb throughout this life...
...and just as our development in the womb (the first time) prepared us for this life outside the womb, the stages of this life are preparation for the next order of life that comes after we die (even if we taste it prior to dying).
as if this final lesson is both 1) a message to someone who is dying and 2) a message to a baby who is about to be born
To the Church in Laodicea (from 7th angel to 7th church)
14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
to add...imho, all this supports the notion that a very large part "original Christianity" was a reawakening of the original wisdom of jewish "end-of-life spirituality"...where the highest calling was to play the role of "spiritual midwife"...
1 Thess 2:7...But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children
perhaps another way to look at it, is that all 7 stages add up to a "super-stage"...or all "angels" are under an "arch-angel"...just like all notes fit within an octave...and between birth and death is a full spectrum of small births/deaths.
yet what seems to happen so often in Christianity these days, is that people are considered "born again" simply for moving from stage 1 to 2, or stage 2 to 3...like when people say "i would have died if not for twi"...or when someone is delivered from drugs and gangs and such by finding and accepting a family of support in a church group (moving from 1 to 2), maybe even growing to becoming a leader in the church (moving from 2 to 3).
not to dismiss the very valid and important healing in either of these...but to point out that it is probably not the whole journey of faith...not even enough to make it through the whole first half of the process...as if we are mistaking graduation from a grade or two with graduation from school.
but even then, even the fuller "graduation from school" is as much an accomplishment to be puffed-up about as being born, where the appropriate response is probably more like...
I am hoping that more people would value in stages
amen brother. i cant help but think that this alone could go a long way to resolve a lot of suffering and confusion, not only in christianity, but in other religious and non-religious contexts. I would even go as far as to say it could go a long way to recover a lot of the original wisdom of the Judeo-Christian heritage, so that we replace minor adjustments with major transformation...and replace supernatural conceptualizations with practical living rites/rights of passage.
I bless you understood my words
because is written is hard for me at times
me too. and blessed you understand mine as well. i recall being refreshed by your first posts at the gsc, and how difficult it was for most to see the spirit beyond your words. am especially delighted that you are still with us...and have come so far in finding a voice for the choir inside of you.
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Gen-2
Okay Roy,... my secret is out now,.....
I may never know what TRUE Maturity is
ya got me guy,......!
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year2027
God first
thanks Gen-2
I love you my friend
if you say you do not know what that makes you maturity
you have maturity
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
"Maturity" seems like another way of saying things like "evolution," "growth," "transformation," and "development." As such, maturity is the nature of life and reality. As if everything is either "on the move" or trying to be.
For those who claim Jesus Christ to be the model of maturity, spiritual or otherwise, the 7 seals of The Book of Revelation might be worth comparing to the work of the developmentalists of the last century...moral-development, cognitive-development, ego-development, faith-development, needs-development, etc...
As if, with every "seal" that is broken, another filter is removed, and we are that much more "awake," and in need of re-interpreting everything once again.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
you ask the question are you really on the last seal or is there a real last
everybody thinks they are maturity bur are they?
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
I ain't! LizzyBuzz makes sure I realize it on a regular basis!
with love and a holy kiss Steve
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year2027
God first
thanks Steve
Is this what you mean
http://www.youtube.com/user/LizzyBuzz#p/a/f/0/p6JzDnL7sf0
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
That wasn't exactly what I meant, Roy. My wife's name is Elizabeth, and when our grand-daughter was too young to say "Elizabeth", she said something very much like "LizzyBuzz". That just stuck as my nickname for her. My wife, in the God designed manner of all wives everywhere, reminds me regularly that I ought to grow up a little more
I DID like the video you linked to very much! You seem to draw on such a wide variety of sources. I like that, too!
with love and a holy kiss Steve
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sirguessalot
a quick note dear brother, to say i have been trying to respond to these very potent (and potentially "dangerous") questions in spite of the "yes or no" way they were asked, yet this rapidly became a small book of thoughts on the matter...too lengthy for posting here.
so both "yes and no" and "neither yes nor no" will have to suffice for now for all three.
...and i'll point back to the "...might be worth comparing to..." of my original response.
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year2027
God first
thanks Steve and Todd
yes I love you both my friends
and i love Elizabeth too my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
some links and quote from the links for consideration...
Theology Today article on Transformation in Faith and Morals...
Fowler's Faith Development in Profile...
James Fowler's Stages of Faith Development...
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sirguessalot
a few verses that seem to reflect the developmental nature of faith...
Psalms 12:6...The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Proverbs 24:16...For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
1 Peter 1:7-9...That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 Corinthians 13:10-11...But when that which is perfect (teleios) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Hebrews 5:12-14...For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (teleios), even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
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sirguessalot
a few more...words in bold seem particularly related to measuring stages of maturity and worth looking at in the Strong's...which you can see following the hotlinks...
Romans 12:3... For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
2 Corinthians 10:15...Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly
Ephesians 4:13...Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (Teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
of course, looking into the wider context of each is even more illuminating, especially if the writer really was writing about how to live and be with each other in light of a developmental nature of faith. imho, developmental maps like Fowler's can not only go a long way to confirm that Jesus Christ and the writers of scripture were mature enough to recognize this, or to help Christians understand where faith can get stuck, but that it is more than ok for our faith to "fall apart" from time to time...in fact, this is necessary in order to become wise.
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sirguessalot
some thoughts...
imho...all this also highlights the limits (and perhaps even "unscriptural" basis) of oversimplified black-and-white "faith or no-faith" models...aka one is "on or off the word"…or one “has or does not have faith”...and reminds us of the wisdom behind teaching our children well…and even cultivating a cultural story that gives us permission to change, even radically if we must…rather than the “permanent childhood” we currently adore…and this sense of ”I want you to stay exactly who you are forever.”
perhaps one can see where the faith of vpw/twi/pfal fits in all this, for example...and not to condemn or judge vpw/twi more than they already are, but to learn...perhaps even empower us to help those stuck there to grow in faith wherever we may meet them...if we are lucky not to be stuck the same way.
twi's extreme degree of mistrust of the world, for example..."satan and devil spirits everywhere plotting our demise"...is perhaps the result of a common experience most all of us had at "stage 0"...simply for being born in a century of industrialized and over-marketed terror and anxiety. Even though we are not likely to get stuck at "stage 0," the way are born these days certainly seems to color our later interpretations of life...including other forms of paranoia and extreme suspicion outside of a Christian context.
"stage 1" reminds me of why leaders like vpw are unable to curb the most base desires...from having no filter for the unconscious drives pouring into us from simply being the spiritual human animals we are...and projecting their own failures and limitations onto the rest of the world. If a child does not develop beyond this kind of faith, we still grow into adults, and yet remain at "stage 1" til the end of our life....aka tyrants and oppressors.
and while stage 2 is more developed than stage 1, stage 1 is more driven to rise to the top in leadership...and both stage 2 and 3 are known to follow stage 1 leaders, due to the parental persona the leaders project, household/brotherhood/familial bonding they themselves lack, and a need for others to conform to their will. sound familiar?
and while many who reach "stage 4" also drop the christian language for a new worldview, it seems mostly because there are far fewer organized "stage 4" christian views (and beyond) in the world...though there are still plenty...here at gsc, and elswhere. …but as if they are somehow “hidden by the woods” ...or even merely inaccessible due to the limits of an economic/educational system...or simply buried by mountains of empty information and disinformation...or out of reach due to cynicism and plain ole exhaustion.
There is also a strong rejection of stagelike development today, both in and out of Christianity, and especially by faith between stage 4 and 5...and this is ironically perhaps one of the leading causes of childish (not childlike) adults in charge of the world. If we reject development of morality, or development of subjectivity…what else will we do but fail to support the develop of such? More and more, we seem to support and promote and celebrate immature values and behavior...which is perhaps a large part of what the ancient visionaries predicted.
btw...i only use words like "stage" and such in this instance because of Fowler's language...and because its partially useful. But I personally prefer to think of "stages" in terms of musical progression, prismatic progression, and punctuated equilibriums...and like those radical shifts we see in the womb. And i also feel that models like Fowler's are best understood as being a general "view from 100 miles up"...and lacks the perfectly messy details of the terrain that are also here...that make us all so unique and complex...even organic. Different personality types grow through the same stages in very different ways...so while development is critical to discern stages of growth...there is a danger of overgeneralization without an equal recognition of different types of critters we are.
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sirguessalot
to add...imho, Fowler's stage 6 is lacking, and can be further divided into 6 and 7...perhaps mostly due to him not having many examples to consider the variations in the upper atmospheres...but also because other developmentalists have.
and...if the 7 seals are any indication of Jesus Christ's curriculum and measure of faith...6 is simply not enough.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
i see all those stages and I am bless you share them
while see myself on stage one or less
i love you
with love and holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
i'm not much into talking about who is where and such, except in a very general sense...and i trust everyone can read about this kind of stuff and chew on them as possibilities long before coming to conclusions, and hopefully handle it all lightly for awhile...
...but for what its worth brother...what you wrote here:
does not seem very likely if you wrote it...or this:in fact, i doubt very many in Fowler's stage 1 or less are even able to post at the gsc. due to things like not having much of a sense of self, not having words, not having a moral reason to do so, and basically not having much to say to anyone else at all.
i think its helpful to understand that aspects of earlier stages of faith continue as we grow into later stages...which can sometimes give the impression that we have not grown beyond them because those qualities are still alive and well. this often happens to me whenever i read through any developmental map, seeing the qualities of early stages of my life still working in my self...childhood issues and such.
i would even go as far as to clarify that my example of vpw reflecting stage 1 is less about him being fully at that stage, but that regardless of what stage he was at, the qualities of his stage 1 experience somehow dominated his leadership style.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
yes I see myself as a baby who can not even talk yet
but whether I am on any 0-6 stage will always see myself as a child
so I do not get puff up like Magical Dragon
with love and holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
ok...i think i'm following you better now, Roy...while it is valid to look at such stages is as the path of becoming an adult, or a grown-up, or somehow wise...or becoming spiritually mature...
...an even bigger picture seems to be...that the seven seals are like stages of gestation, and we are like babes developing in the womb throughout this life...
...and just as our development in the womb (the first time) prepared us for this life outside the womb, the stages of this life are preparation for the next order of life that comes after we die (even if we taste it prior to dying).
as if this final lesson is both 1) a message to someone who is dying and 2) a message to a baby who is about to be born
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sirguessalot
to add...imho, all this supports the notion that a very large part "original Christianity" was a reawakening of the original wisdom of jewish "end-of-life spirituality"...where the highest calling was to play the role of "spiritual midwife"...
1 Thess 2:7...But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children
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sirguessalot
perhaps another way to look at it, is that all 7 stages add up to a "super-stage"...or all "angels" are under an "arch-angel"...just like all notes fit within an octave...and between birth and death is a full spectrum of small births/deaths.
yet what seems to happen so often in Christianity these days, is that people are considered "born again" simply for moving from stage 1 to 2, or stage 2 to 3...like when people say "i would have died if not for twi"...or when someone is delivered from drugs and gangs and such by finding and accepting a family of support in a church group (moving from 1 to 2), maybe even growing to becoming a leader in the church (moving from 2 to 3).
not to dismiss the very valid and important healing in either of these...but to point out that it is probably not the whole journey of faith...not even enough to make it through the whole first half of the process...as if we are mistaking graduation from a grade or two with graduation from school.
but even then, even the fuller "graduation from school" is as much an accomplishment to be puffed-up about as being born, where the appropriate response is probably more like...
. Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
I am hoping that more people would value in stages
I bless you understood my words
because is written is hard for me at times
I love you my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
amen brother. i cant help but think that this alone could go a long way to resolve a lot of suffering and confusion, not only in christianity, but in other religious and non-religious contexts. I would even go as far as to say it could go a long way to recover a lot of the original wisdom of the Judeo-Christian heritage, so that we replace minor adjustments with major transformation...and replace supernatural conceptualizations with practical living rites/rights of passage.
me too. and blessed you understand mine as well. i recall being refreshed by your first posts at the gsc, and how difficult it was for most to see the spirit beyond your words. am especially delighted that you are still with us...and have come so far in finding a voice for the choir inside of you.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
Amen too Todd my friend
choir inside of me is more tone everyday
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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