Healthy Christian Skepticism

[JeffSjo]

I've been thinking about this record from Daniel.....

Daniel 2: (NKJV)

Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream

1 Now in the second year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; and his spirit was so troubled that his sleep left him.

2 Then the king gave the command to call the magicians, the astrologers, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans to tell the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

3 And the king said to them, “I have had a dream, and my spirit is anxious to know the dream.”

4 Then the Chaldeans spoke to the king in Aramaic, “O king, live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will give the interpretation.”

5 The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, “My decision is firm: if you do not make known the dream to me, and its interpretation, you shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made an ash heap.

6 However, if you tell the dream and its interpretation, you shall receive from me gifts, rewards, and great honor. Therefore tell me the dream and its interpretation.”

7 They answered again and said, “Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will give its interpretation.”

8 The king answered and said, “I know for certain that you would gain time, because you see that my decision is firm:

9 if you do not make known the dream to me, there is only one decree for you! For you have agreed to speak lying and corrupt words before me till the time has changed. Therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that you can give me its interpretation.”

10 The Chaldeans answered the king, and said, “There is not a man on earth who can tell the king’s matter; therefore no king, lord, or ruler has ever asked such things of any magician, astrologer, or Chaldean.

11 It is a difficult thing that the king requests, and there is no other who can tell it to the king except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.”

12 For this reason the king was angry and very furious, and gave the command to destroy all the wise men of Babylon.

13 So the decree went out, and they began killing the wise men; and they sought Daniel and his companions, to kill them.

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Now I know that from this record folks go all kinds of places, liking to make snide comments about Nebuchadnezzar, the sooth-sayers, or go in any number of other directions with this.

I would like to focus on what I consider an amazing insight on Nebuchadnezzar's part.

Sheesh, the king had grown up in a culture where doubtlessly many fortune tellers, magicians, and prophets had been held in high esteem, and it seems to me that how he really felt about all of them became obvious here.

He doubtlessly knew that if he told them the dream that he would get any number of competing interpretations. He doubtlessly knew how well they could take his words and come up with something convincing, whether true or not. He was IMO fed up, and desperately wanted a true answer, even being willing to purge his entire kingdom of all the lying prophets and fortune teller types.

I really, really like his wisdom. And for the record, I have my secrets. Do you want to give me God's answer for my secrets, then tell me the secrets too. Depending on who you are when you fail will determine how I act though, but I'm not making any promises.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I love this record too.....

2 Kings 5:

Naaman’s Leprosy Healed

1 Now Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Syria, was a great and honorable man in the eyes of his master, because by him the LORD had given victory to Syria. He was also a mighty man of valor, but a leper.

2 And the Syrians had gone out on raids, and had brought back captive a young girl from the land of Israel. She waited on Naaman’s wife.

3 Then she said to her mistress, “If only my master were with the prophet who is in Samaria! For he would heal him of his leprosy.”

4 And Naaman went in and told his master, saying, “Thus and thus said the girl who is from the land of Israel.”

5 Then the king of Syria said, “Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel.”

9 Then Naaman went with his horses and chariot, and he stood at the door of Elisha’s house.

10 And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored to you, and you shall be clean.”

11 But Naaman became furious, and went away and said, “Indeed, I said to myself, ‘He will surely come out to me, and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leprosy.’

12 Are not the Abanah[a] and the Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

13 And his servants came near and spoke to him, and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do something great, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?”

14 So he went down and dipped seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his aides, and came and stood before him; and he said, “Indeed, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, except in Israel; now therefore, please take a gift from your servant.”

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I love to consider Naaman. Here was this bigshot that had a huge problem. He was used to being treated as an important man. He was used to having his King's priests treat him with respect. He was used to a big show.

Elisha did not act like all the azzkissing sycophants he was used to, and he didn't actually treat him with disrespect either. Just told him to go wash in the river. And for the record I am not afraid to apply that analogy to us today in a figurative sense either.

I love it that God Himself proved the truth to Naaman.

FYI, it just so happens that sociopaths play people too, but in Naamnan's case there could be no doubt, HE WAS HEALED!

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Now,In this day and age shouldn't we heed these things......

2Tim 3:

13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Mark 13:

22For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.

23So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

1John 2:

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come.

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IMO, it is soooo bad out and about that thinking or being taught we can not be fooled is probably evidence of being fooled already.

Shouldn't we become really, really good or at least try real hard to get it right this time?

Edited May 21, 2010 by JeffSjo

[teachmevp]

Hi Jeff,

I feel the king was feed up with being surround with yes men, and he put them on the spot. Like that dude you put on the spot in that splinter group, he may have kicked you out, but we all know what he chooses to become; love your wisdom; keep believing on.

[Gen-2]

Why play games with people about who's righter? Who can prove what.....

This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.

Taunting people is intended to get you where? to get others to do what?

And for the record, I have my secrets. Do you want to give me God's answer for my secrets, then tell me the secrets too. Depending on who you are when you fail will determine how I act though, but I'm not making any promises.

foolishness,.... so you sit and yell nanny nanny boo boo?

Good for you!

Edited May 21, 2010 by Gen-2

[JeffSjo]

Taunting people is intended to get you where? to get others to do what?

Well, only with the very best intentions....and even then I could be screwing it up. :B)

foolishness,.... so you sit and yell nanny nanny boo boo?

Good for you!

To yell or not to yell....

To confront or to walk away....

To lovingly care for or to rebuke....

Mercy or consequences, maybe both....

If I decide to yell it just might be far more colorful than "nanny nanny boo boo" though. :B)

[Gen-2]

If I decide to yell it just might be far more colorful than "nanny nanny boo boo" though.

hahahahahaha! Good! Every situation is different, so the response should not always be the same!

and besides - if you didn't stick up for yourself,... I'd've called ya a wimp Jeff!

<<dances off>>

[JeffSjo]

:huh: :P Till tomorrow then.

[teachmevp]

Edited May 22, 2010 by teachmevp

[year2027]

God first

thanks Jeff

good subject

what is Unhealthy unchristian un-skepticism next to Healthy Christian Skepticism

just a question

and why do we need to know this?

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[year2027]

God first

thanks Jeff

God first

Understanding God Word means understanding words!

05-27-2010

Here, here, here, here, and there we go trying to understand God’s Holy Word but do we really understand words yet. One understands a word by its meaning but until one has the truth about one needs to witness the pain or joy it brings.

Love cannot truly be understood love until you hated some one or one understands hate by the hate gave then they see as wrong. The people that were laugh at understand what it is to laugh at, so people that have been hated understand hate?

We been laugh at some time in our life maybe not a lever others have but at some lever if we can write. Is written a sign that I been through it all but just takes reading to read these words because hate and love has not set amount of time to understand.

We miss a lot life lessons we walk around like we are high when we are not because we do want to see something that as plain as nose our face. To study something we must think about so we know every reason

Do we truly know every reason to become Atheist or Christian? I called myself an Atheist/Christian because I can be both so some tell me. One side of me views the Atheist being right but the other side of me views the Christians right.

I in the middle looking out as I view myself as weak who is strong by my understanding of the two sides. My human side that will not live forever and spiritual side that will live forever!

I see it as part of me and not part of me like love/hate the two sides of an emotion that we all have. As I think on this I will end this now with thank you with love and a holy kiss Roy.

Healthy Christian Skepticism we understand non-Christian Healthy Skepticism as we understand God by the attacks of Serpent and God by the attacks of the Serpent

to put it simple God is understood by the Serpent

while I choice to love I understand hate I once did

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[sirguessalot]

i agree, JeffSjo...King Neb was onto something, and i think it has a lot to do with the vital role of skepticism in all matters, but especially in profoundly important matters such as dream interpretation.

And by vital, i mean necessary for the rest of the parts of the whole system to function. Without skepticism, our interpretation system fails. With only skepticism, our interpretation system fails.

In the Revelation, the voice of the 3rd angel seems like skepticism, and is a vital voice for helping who is telling the truth about their claims...who is able to demonstrate living wisdom in action. As if rational thinking is the 3rd of 7 basic "notes" to learn as we grow in Christ. Of course, like the merely skeptical Chaldeans, not everyone agrees there is a such a knowable musicality to Christ or the universe. I can no longer help my self.

Also, in some fields of developmental psychology, there is a general agreement that things like skepticism, reason, objectivity, provability and such becomes the dominant view for a time at about a 3rd stage of life, and the introduction of a 3rd person perspective. I often wonder if this perhaps even has something to do with the original purpose of the Jewish bar-mitzvah and other pubic rites of passage in world history...like saying "teach your youth how to be reasonable to get them ready to become a reasonable adults...or else they may not...and yet still grow old...maybe only becoming skeptical the hard way." im guessing the pain of late-blooming skepticism is alive and well here. God knows i felt it.

...back to what seems like the theme of this thread...King Neb's skepticism may have been the only way he noticed the general absence of wisdom in his kingdom...and the only way he noticed why Daniel was different...like Neb woke up one day to the runaway non-skeptical (and merely skeptical) thinking in his kingdom's stock market/military advisors/medical advisors.

Without skepticism, our interpretation system fails.

By skepticism alone, our interpretation system fails.

Edited May 30, 2010 by sirguessalot

[year2027]

God first

thanks everybody

Some of the tales of divine saviours may be ultimately founded upon local Greek traditions, but many features of these religious myths indicate that they were introduced early from the Orient whose religions began to influence the occidental nations at the very dawn of their civilisation. Thus Hercules is the Tyrian Baal Melkarth, probably identical with the Babylonian Bel,--the conqueror of Tiamat; and his twelve labors are the deeds of the sun-god in the twelve months of the year. Phœnix-like, he dies by self-combustion and rises in a transfigured shape from the flames of the pyre. The Jews also appropriated the figure of this solar hero in the shape of Samson whose strength is conditioned by his hair, as the power of the sun lies in his rays.

would this be Healthy Christian Skepticism

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[sirguessalot]

would this be Healthy Christian Skepticism

not sure what "healthy" means...seems there are depths and degrees of "healthiness."

but overall...the context of the paragraph may involve being skeptical about conventional interpretations of scripture...but based on the contents of the paragraph (both writer and context being unknown)...seems there is only a grain of skepticism in a blend of mostly absolute statements.

A lot of "is" ...very little "maybe" and/or "maybe not."

Not much skepticism about the writer's own methods or conclusions...not much curiosity...not much actively touching, holding, handling something that is being doubted/wondered about.

[year2027]

God first

thanks Todd

I am reading

THE

HISTORY OF THE DEVIL

AND THE

IDEA OF EVIL

FROM THE EARLIEST TIMES TO THE PRESENT DAY

by PAUL CARUS

[1900]

that taking from his book

yes I enjoyed your views keep then coming

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[cman]

the pure skeptic philosophy and it's out right rejection of absolutes

documented as an absolute it seems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrho_of_Elis

kind of funny....

absolutes are not stationary,

skeptically speaking of course

:)