Sure CW. Sorry. No insult was intended. We all have had scrambled ideas on these topics; me included. I removed the first sentence from my post altogether, and capitalized the word “think” in the second. I hope they sit better with you. If not let me know.
Thanks, Mike. Please let me know when I slip up and point a finger at you instead of talking about your ideas, OK? :)-->
Something I have to remember is that I bring the whole my whole life's experiences to the board...and nobody knows what those are except me...and there's no way for anybody to know how things are hitting me.
That said...
I may have misread your intended meaning. I've been dealing with a situation where the people are very works oriented...they say they're not...that they're looking at "fruit"...but they measure people by circumstances and blame a person's works or lack of works...while they, themselves, show off the things the "believed" for and literally cuss those who have less.
So I was bringing that experience to your post.
There is no question that it is said that faith without works is dead. In fact, I expect works from myself and from others.
However, to put it in as part of the answer to the question of "what is being 'saved'" bothers me because it muddies the waters.
The example you used of raising children...a good analogy...and one must remember that there is a personal learning curve involved. Kids learn differently, at different rates and at different understandings. If there is anything in a child's life that interferes with learning, then one cannot expect that child to learn as readily...if at all...as other children.
The same goes for learning in the spirit.
For example, those of us who came to twi in our teen years have a much more difficult time learning to trust the spirit.
Spirit knows this...so it's beyond me to grasp that spirit would expect me to "work out my own salvation" in the ways you have described.
When I hear "work out your own salvation", I hear spirit working with me personally to teach me spirit knowledge.
For example, I could not grasp the concept of "god" as a father. It was more than I could bear. So spirit introduced me to the reality that spirit is neither male nor female...and that if I need to relate to spirit as a mother, then spirit doesn't mind at all.
Through that, I learned to grasp spirit as co-parents in the raising of me.
That worked! I can now relate to spirit comfortably.
It was a long time coming because spirit had to show me the 40+ years of wrong teaching concerning this matter. I had to get beyond the "devilish" mindset.
If my salvation of body and soul were up to me through all of this, I'd have been a goner.
Looking back on it, I TOO slightly misread your intended meaning in your previous post, thinking there were some “fighting words” were there now appear to be none.
Plus, I thought I could get away with rough wording because I knew that you knew (from our phone conversations) that I respect your heart. But I forgot that THAT can be easily forgotten in the multitude of the days and months of business, and especially in the heat of the whole board here.
PLUS, like your negative situation dealing with those people you just mentioned, I too was dealing with some local hassles that I unnecessarily brought into my post to you.
WOW! If only we ALL here were able to get these kinds of things straight from the get-go! Or at least untangle them quickly like you and I seem to have just done, then we’d be back in that “total trust” atmosphere we sampled at times, like at earlier Rock of Ages festivals. It’s coming, though, I know, because HE’s here and HE will prevail.
***
That was interesting, what you said about male and female.
I was blessed to grow up in a very large (3 boys 3 girls) and near totally functional family (I was the exception), and my Dad is a very decent representative of Our Father in heaven. It bewildered me, back in the 70’s, when I first stumbled upon a few people here and there who couldn’t relate to the idea of a loving father, because of their abusive upbringing.
I’ve struggled over the years for ways to help in these kinds of cases, so you gave me a bit of food for thought. I know that the TOTAL ORIGINAL ideas of female and woman are VERY GOOD and come directly from THE Holy Spirit, Almighty God.
Something that I have recently learned "in my heart" is about the things that come out of my mouth...or my keyboard...which is my mouth on the internet...LOL...
Anyway, I am doing my best to watch what I say. It's a real life changer...as exemplified here in this little ol' thread. :)-->
***********************
The most awesome thing I learned while relating to spirit as "mother" was exactly what you said...about male and female...man and wife...mother and father...
I was drawn to the passage in John 4 about the Samarian woman. (That whole conversation and ministering was very much like a mother, imo.)
Then verses 21-24 popped out at me:
quote:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
I have never envisioned that there are two (or more) gods. I simply see many sides to the same god.
In twi I was taught that Psalm 23 contained all of the names of God and what each did. I kept that teaching for many, many years...until it was worn out...and I have since lost it in many moves.
However, if you look at Psalm 23, you will see that God manifested in spirit really is neither male nor female, but is all in all.
We are taught that god prefers a human family to consist of a mother and a father.
Now I know many families that are single parent or same sex two parent families. I'm not saying these types of families are "ungodly". Why? Because in the families that I know, there is a balance between male and female input in the upbringing of the children.
It makes a big difference, too.
Why would god want his family to have anything less? If he is the Almighty, omnipotent Creator, then he can certainly manifest with male and/or female qualities if he so chooses. Why wouldn't he choose?
It's such a blessing to be able to minister to survivors of abuse according to what will work in their heart...ya know?
In addition, it seems that Jesus often displayed feminine characteristics when they were needed. Look at his pain endurance! When brute strength and toughness were needed he had that too.
I don’t know this one for sure, but maybe you can find it. I was told long ago that there is a verse somewhere that describes God as feeding “His” people with a breast, or something to that effect. I don’t know if the word “breast” is used or “suckling” or what, but someone told me that long ago.
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Mike
Peace.
:)-->
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CoolWaters
Mike,
I refuse to hear you over these comments of yours.
Wanna try it again without the insulting comments?
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Mike
Sure CW. Sorry. No insult was intended. We all have had scrambled ideas on these topics; me included. I removed the first sentence from my post altogether, and capitalized the word “think” in the second. I hope they sit better with you. If not let me know.
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CoolWaters
Thanks, Mike. Please let me know when I slip up and point a finger at you instead of talking about your ideas, OK?
:)-->
Something I have to remember is that I bring the whole my whole life's experiences to the board...and nobody knows what those are except me...and there's no way for anybody to know how things are hitting me.
That said...
I may have misread your intended meaning. I've been dealing with a situation where the people are very works oriented...they say they're not...that they're looking at "fruit"...but they measure people by circumstances and blame a person's works or lack of works...while they, themselves, show off the things the "believed" for and literally cuss those who have less.
So I was bringing that experience to your post.
There is no question that it is said that faith without works is dead. In fact, I expect works from myself and from others.
However, to put it in as part of the answer to the question of "what is being 'saved'" bothers me because it muddies the waters.
The example you used of raising children...a good analogy...and one must remember that there is a personal learning curve involved. Kids learn differently, at different rates and at different understandings. If there is anything in a child's life that interferes with learning, then one cannot expect that child to learn as readily...if at all...as other children.
The same goes for learning in the spirit.
For example, those of us who came to twi in our teen years have a much more difficult time learning to trust the spirit.
Spirit knows this...so it's beyond me to grasp that spirit would expect me to "work out my own salvation" in the ways you have described.
When I hear "work out your own salvation", I hear spirit working with me personally to teach me spirit knowledge.
For example, I could not grasp the concept of "god" as a father. It was more than I could bear. So spirit introduced me to the reality that spirit is neither male nor female...and that if I need to relate to spirit as a mother, then spirit doesn't mind at all.
Through that, I learned to grasp spirit as co-parents in the raising of me.
That worked! I can now relate to spirit comfortably.
It was a long time coming because spirit had to show me the 40+ years of wrong teaching concerning this matter. I had to get beyond the "devilish" mindset.
If my salvation of body and soul were up to me through all of this, I'd have been a goner.
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CoolWaters
Ya know, Todd...if I were less spiritually enlightened, I'd want you for my guru.
;)-->
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Mike
Hi Cool Waters,
I’m grateful you accepted my editing.
Looking back on it, I TOO slightly misread your intended meaning in your previous post, thinking there were some “fighting words” were there now appear to be none.
Plus, I thought I could get away with rough wording because I knew that you knew (from our phone conversations) that I respect your heart. But I forgot that THAT can be easily forgotten in the multitude of the days and months of business, and especially in the heat of the whole board here.
PLUS, like your negative situation dealing with those people you just mentioned, I too was dealing with some local hassles that I unnecessarily brought into my post to you.
WOW! If only we ALL here were able to get these kinds of things straight from the get-go! Or at least untangle them quickly like you and I seem to have just done, then we’d be back in that “total trust” atmosphere we sampled at times, like at earlier Rock of Ages festivals. It’s coming, though, I know, because HE’s here and HE will prevail.
***
That was interesting, what you said about male and female.
I was blessed to grow up in a very large (3 boys 3 girls) and near totally functional family (I was the exception), and my Dad is a very decent representative of Our Father in heaven. It bewildered me, back in the 70’s, when I first stumbled upon a few people here and there who couldn’t relate to the idea of a loving father, because of their abusive upbringing.
I’ve struggled over the years for ways to help in these kinds of cases, so you gave me a bit of food for thought. I know that the TOTAL ORIGINAL ideas of female and woman are VERY GOOD and come directly from THE Holy Spirit, Almighty God.
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CoolWaters
Mike,
Something that I have recently learned "in my heart" is about the things that come out of my mouth...or my keyboard...which is my mouth on the internet...LOL...
Anyway, I am doing my best to watch what I say. It's a real life changer...as exemplified here in this little ol' thread.
:)-->
***********************
The most awesome thing I learned while relating to spirit as "mother" was exactly what you said...about male and female...man and wife...mother and father...
I was drawn to the passage in John 4 about the Samarian woman. (That whole conversation and ministering was very much like a mother, imo.)
Then verses 21-24 popped out at me:
I have never envisioned that there are two (or more) gods. I simply see many sides to the same god.
In twi I was taught that Psalm 23 contained all of the names of God and what each did. I kept that teaching for many, many years...until it was worn out...and I have since lost it in many moves.
However, if you look at Psalm 23, you will see that God manifested in spirit really is neither male nor female, but is all in all.
We are taught that god prefers a human family to consist of a mother and a father.
Now I know many families that are single parent or same sex two parent families. I'm not saying these types of families are "ungodly". Why? Because in the families that I know, there is a balance between male and female input in the upbringing of the children.
It makes a big difference, too.
Why would god want his family to have anything less? If he is the Almighty, omnipotent Creator, then he can certainly manifest with male and/or female qualities if he so chooses. Why wouldn't he choose?
It's such a blessing to be able to minister to survivors of abuse according to what will work in their heart...ya know?
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Mike
CoolWaters,
Placing all the distortions of the adversary aside...
PRAISE GOD FOR INVENTING WOMEN!!!
The world would be totally colorless without you all.
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Mike
CoolWaters,
In addition, it seems that Jesus often displayed feminine characteristics when they were needed. Look at his pain endurance! When brute strength and toughness were needed he had that too.
I don’t know this one for sure, but maybe you can find it. I was told long ago that there is a verse somewhere that describes God as feeding “His” people with a breast, or something to that effect. I don’t know if the word “breast” is used or “suckling” or what, but someone told me that long ago.
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Mike
Hey Oakspear! Wheree did you go? Did you get your answers?
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sirguessalot
Oakspear,
For the benefit of us ex-way, I did a quick search and came up with some links to a few of "Judeo/Christianity's" more adventurous schools of thought.
Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism
Christian Mysticism
Christian Mysticism Book List
Resources for Gnosticism and Nag Hammadi
Contemplative Outreach Ltd.
The Essenes
Hermetic Kabbalah
Kabbalah
Christian Counterpoint Forum
I am sure the topic of salvation (or the equiv.) is covered somewhere in each.
Enjoy.
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