paragraphs 2850-2854, which teach on the section of the Lord's Prayer that says "deliver us from Evil."
That's one reference. There are whole volumes written on the subject. So your statement, One thing that still bugs me is the catholic churches ( along with others) that really don't teach on the 'wiles' of the adversary (sorry Mark). It's almost like they don't believe he exists, or that he and his angels are somehow only 'subjectively' involved in the woes of mankind., is in error.
Again, is it a subject that is spoken about in every homily? Hardly. The reason being is that most of the 'devilish' acts that happen are the effects of the free will of man, not due to (as some teach) the direct influence of 'demons'/'devil spirits.' And man is what needs reforming...through man's free will...therefore, most 'preaching' done talks to the 'reforming' of man.
To say it's not in the 'teaching of the Church' is inaccurate. Having said that, though, you may well have a point that many in the Church have not been taught it. That's a testament to the state of catechesis in the Church nowadays, which, I'll agree is not where it should be. But it most definitely is a teaching of the Church...
T-bone...very interesting. If you could find something on that I'd like to see it. :)
Mark...you have some patience! :) Thank you for the links to the Catechism sections. My granddaughter is very into Catholicism and she just recently was baptized (she's 11yo). I've been reading, watching TV and looking on the internet for any information that will help me relate to her. What I've found is that I'm more Catholic than I realized. :)
Allan...outside of twi the 'devil' isn't so powerful or important. :)
Mark O' ..thats basically what I said, they're not TEACHING it ! They may pray about it, they may have it in their catechisms, but they're not TEACHING it.
CW, I wish the adversary was more widely taught outside of twi, the Bible tells us he still walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Bad things happening to good people is not right.
The likelihood that an abused child will become antisocial or violent as an adult hinges partly on a gene that influences brain chemistry, scientists report today, suggesting that some children carry a built-in shield against trauma and stress.
In a provocative study that tracked 442 New Zealand boys from birth into their mid-20s, an international team of researchers found evidence of a potent interaction between child abuse and a gene known as MAO-A. The study appears today in the journal Science.
The results highlight the importance of tying gene function to factors in the environment, particularly during early childhood, that can powerfully shape just how and when a gene kicks in. It's often the interaction, more than the gene itself, that really counts, even though that can be an elusive area to conduct research.
"This is one of the first demonstrations of an interaction between a gene and an environmental pathogen," said Terrie Moffitt, a psychologist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison and a co-author of the study. "Looking for a direct one-to-one interaction between a gene and a disorder is usually the wrong way to go."
The MAO-A gene produces a brain enzyme called monoamine oxidase A, long known to soak up excess quantities of the neurotransmitters dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine, all key chemical messengers in the brain.
The same gene can come in a high-activity or low-activity form. Previous studies in humans as well as animals have documented a clear link between violent tendencies and the low-activity form of the gene.
In the new study, 85 percent of the severely maltreated boys who also had the low-activity form exhibited some kind of antisocial behavior later in life.
The combination of maltreatment and a low-activity MAO-A gene was found in only 12 percent of all the boys in the study, but was a factor in 44 percent of their violent crimes.
All told, the odds of an abused child with the low-activity MAO-A gene developing antisocial problems worked out to be roughly equivalent to the risk of someone with high cholesterol developing cardiovascular disease.
However, the researchers emphasized that the MAO-A factor was not strong enough to predict which abused children might develop antisocial problems. Instead, the presence of one gene form or another merely shifts the odds -- leaving plenty of room for variation among individuals.
The data was drawn from a large and continuing health study begun in 1972 by the New Zealand government, designed initially to examine the long-term effects of birth complications.
Nearly 1,100 children -- all those born in a certain hospital during a one- year period -- were evaluated repeatedly for health and behavior patterns through age 26. Another study is planned based on the participants at age 32.
Mark O' ..thats basically what I said, they're not TEACHING it ! They may pray about it, they may have it in their catechisms, but they're not TEACHING it.
CW, I wish the adversary was more widely taught outside of twi, the Bible tells us he still walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Bad things happening to good people is not right.
Allan, I don't know what they are teaching the kids nowadays on the subject. I know in my daughter's religion class, it has been brought up, but don't recall how much and to what degree. I'll have her bring her religion textbook home and will scan it and get an answer to you. Of course, that will apply to the seventh grade in one school. Having said that, they are in confirmation class this year and next year...I know they have to go through the Catechism completely during the next two years. So the references I gave you will be applicable for at least those two years of education.
As to adult education...the subject is covered by classes, at least in my diocese. But keep in mind that, unlike other groups, classes are not mandatory.
Keep in mind that my statement, Having said that, though, you may well have a point that many in the Church have not been taught it. That's a testament to the state of catechesis in the Church nowadays, which, I'll agree is not where it should be. is not the same as ..thats basically what I said, they're not TEACHING it ! There are about 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world in somewhere nearing 500,000 individual parishes. I can't speak to what they are currently teaching in each and every parish. I will say that a cursory look, attendence at a couple of Masses in one parish, etc., won't really get you a good view of the overall situation. Allow me to expound a bit:
- The level of required participation in the Catholic Church is not all that high. You're supposed to be baptized, go to Mass each week, go to Confession once a year...and that's the minimum. If you want to receive Communion, you are supposed to have some basic (2nd grade level) religious education. If you want to receive Confirmation, you have to have some more advanced (8th grade level) religious education.
- 75-80% of all Catholics never, in all reality, take the time to learn more than that. That's what I'm talking about with the level of Catechesis. But that's not all that's offered...
- There is continuing religious education offered for kids up through high school and, if they attend a Catholic institution, into the college level.
- There is continuing religious education offered for adults that is taught at the college level. Usually the costs are such as to pay the teacher's salary and the cost of the books.
- There are college majors in various 'relgious' type subjects, pastoral ministry, theology, canon law, spiritual counselling, etc.
- Every parish that I've been involved in have study groups for adults -- taught at various levels -- that cover scripture, prayer, and other theological studies
- Every parish that I've been involved in has speakers come in to hold seminars, retreats, etc.
The subject of spiritual warfare is offered in most of the adult levels that I've spoken about.
But the key thing is that most parishoners don't take advantage of these things nearly as much as I think they should. There are some who never go beyond 1st communion training. There are many more who never go beyond confirmation. It's not mandatory.
You won't mostly hear about those things in homilies, because the purpose of the homily is to expound in a brief application-level teaching on the readings for the Mass that day. The homily is normally no more than 15 minutes...at maximum. Why so short? Because the Mass is worship, not teaching. And a homily is an exhortation much more so than a lesson.
But don't say that the stuff isn't taught...it is. Now are people motivated to learn? Is it being taught uniformly well? Is it being taught in an orthodox fashion or a heterodox one? Those would be good questions and, more importantly, an answer that might be completely accurate in Aus/NZ may not be accurate here. An answer that might be accurate for the Archdiocese of Washington may not be accurate for the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. But it isn't easy to give a uniform answer that is true everywhere. The only thing that I can say that is universally true is that it is within the teachings of the Church.
These two articles are very interesting in and of themselves. In fact, I'm going to post the one about the Dutch family over on the kiddypic kiddyvid (or however she titled that thread) thread.
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markomalley
Why would they 'pray about it' if they didn't 'TEACH it'?
Rather than engage in a p1ssing contest, I will refer you to the following sections from the Catechism:
paragraphs 385-421, which describes the fall of man.
paragraphs 538-540, which talk about Jesus' temptations in the desert
paragraphs 632-637, which talk about Christ's descent into Hades
paragraph 856, which explains some of the functions of the missionary
paragraph 1237, which talks about the baptismal exorcisms
paragraph 1673, which explains a little bit on exorcism
paragraphs 2110-2128, which talk about idolatry and other violations of the first commandment.
paragraphs 2482-2487, which talk about lying
paragraphs 2850-2854, which teach on the section of the Lord's Prayer that says "deliver us from Evil."
That's one reference. There are whole volumes written on the subject. So your statement, One thing that still bugs me is the catholic churches ( along with others) that really don't teach on the 'wiles' of the adversary (sorry Mark). It's almost like they don't believe he exists, or that he and his angels are somehow only 'subjectively' involved in the woes of mankind., is in error.
Again, is it a subject that is spoken about in every homily? Hardly. The reason being is that most of the 'devilish' acts that happen are the effects of the free will of man, not due to (as some teach) the direct influence of 'demons'/'devil spirits.' And man is what needs reforming...through man's free will...therefore, most 'preaching' done talks to the 'reforming' of man.
To say it's not in the 'teaching of the Church' is inaccurate. Having said that, though, you may well have a point that many in the Church have not been taught it. That's a testament to the state of catechesis in the Church nowadays, which, I'll agree is not where it should be. But it most definitely is a teaching of the Church...
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CoolWaters
T-bone...very interesting. If you could find something on that I'd like to see it. :)
Mark...you have some patience! :) Thank you for the links to the Catechism sections. My granddaughter is very into Catholicism and she just recently was baptized (she's 11yo). I've been reading, watching TV and looking on the internet for any information that will help me relate to her. What I've found is that I'm more Catholic than I realized. :)
Allan...outside of twi the 'devil' isn't so powerful or important. :)
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allan w.
Mark O' ..thats basically what I said, they're not TEACHING it ! They may pray about it, they may have it in their catechisms, but they're not TEACHING it.
CW, I wish the adversary was more widely taught outside of twi, the Bible tells us he still walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Bad things happening to good people is not right.
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T-Bone
CoolWaters, here's an article about environment/genetic link to antisocial behavior:
Study finds genetic link to violence
Environment of abused children may trigger gene that influences antisocial behavior
- Carl T. Hall, Chronicle Science Writer
Friday, August 2, 2002
The likelihood that an abused child will become antisocial or violent as an adult hinges partly on a gene that influences brain chemistry, scientists report today, suggesting that some children carry a built-in shield against trauma and stress.
In a provocative study that tracked 442 New Zealand boys from birth into their mid-20s, an international team of researchers found evidence of a potent interaction between child abuse and a gene known as MAO-A. The study appears today in the journal Science.
The results highlight the importance of tying gene function to factors in the environment, particularly during early childhood, that can powerfully shape just how and when a gene kicks in. It's often the interaction, more than the gene itself, that really counts, even though that can be an elusive area to conduct research.
"This is one of the first demonstrations of an interaction between a gene and an environmental pathogen," said Terrie Moffitt, a psychologist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison and a co-author of the study. "Looking for a direct one-to-one interaction between a gene and a disorder is usually the wrong way to go."
The MAO-A gene produces a brain enzyme called monoamine oxidase A, long known to soak up excess quantities of the neurotransmitters dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine, all key chemical messengers in the brain.
The same gene can come in a high-activity or low-activity form. Previous studies in humans as well as animals have documented a clear link between violent tendencies and the low-activity form of the gene.
In the new study, 85 percent of the severely maltreated boys who also had the low-activity form exhibited some kind of antisocial behavior later in life.
The combination of maltreatment and a low-activity MAO-A gene was found in only 12 percent of all the boys in the study, but was a factor in 44 percent of their violent crimes.
All told, the odds of an abused child with the low-activity MAO-A gene developing antisocial problems worked out to be roughly equivalent to the risk of someone with high cholesterol developing cardiovascular disease.
However, the researchers emphasized that the MAO-A factor was not strong enough to predict which abused children might develop antisocial problems. Instead, the presence of one gene form or another merely shifts the odds -- leaving plenty of room for variation among individuals.
The data was drawn from a large and continuing health study begun in 1972 by the New Zealand government, designed initially to examine the long-term effects of birth complications.
Nearly 1,100 children -- all those born in a certain hospital during a one- year period -- were evaluated repeatedly for health and behavior patterns through age 26. Another study is planned based on the participants at age 32.
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markomalley
Allan, I don't know what they are teaching the kids nowadays on the subject. I know in my daughter's religion class, it has been brought up, but don't recall how much and to what degree. I'll have her bring her religion textbook home and will scan it and get an answer to you. Of course, that will apply to the seventh grade in one school. Having said that, they are in confirmation class this year and next year...I know they have to go through the Catechism completely during the next two years. So the references I gave you will be applicable for at least those two years of education.
As to adult education...the subject is covered by classes, at least in my diocese. But keep in mind that, unlike other groups, classes are not mandatory.
Keep in mind that my statement, Having said that, though, you may well have a point that many in the Church have not been taught it. That's a testament to the state of catechesis in the Church nowadays, which, I'll agree is not where it should be. is not the same as ..thats basically what I said, they're not TEACHING it ! There are about 1,000,000,000 Catholics in the world in somewhere nearing 500,000 individual parishes. I can't speak to what they are currently teaching in each and every parish. I will say that a cursory look, attendence at a couple of Masses in one parish, etc., won't really get you a good view of the overall situation. Allow me to expound a bit:
- The level of required participation in the Catholic Church is not all that high. You're supposed to be baptized, go to Mass each week, go to Confession once a year...and that's the minimum. If you want to receive Communion, you are supposed to have some basic (2nd grade level) religious education. If you want to receive Confirmation, you have to have some more advanced (8th grade level) religious education.
- 75-80% of all Catholics never, in all reality, take the time to learn more than that. That's what I'm talking about with the level of Catechesis. But that's not all that's offered...
- There is continuing religious education offered for kids up through high school and, if they attend a Catholic institution, into the college level.
- There is continuing religious education offered for adults that is taught at the college level. Usually the costs are such as to pay the teacher's salary and the cost of the books.
- There are college majors in various 'relgious' type subjects, pastoral ministry, theology, canon law, spiritual counselling, etc.
- Every parish that I've been involved in have study groups for adults -- taught at various levels -- that cover scripture, prayer, and other theological studies
- Every parish that I've been involved in has speakers come in to hold seminars, retreats, etc.
The subject of spiritual warfare is offered in most of the adult levels that I've spoken about.
But the key thing is that most parishoners don't take advantage of these things nearly as much as I think they should. There are some who never go beyond 1st communion training. There are many more who never go beyond confirmation. It's not mandatory.
You won't mostly hear about those things in homilies, because the purpose of the homily is to expound in a brief application-level teaching on the readings for the Mass that day. The homily is normally no more than 15 minutes...at maximum. Why so short? Because the Mass is worship, not teaching. And a homily is an exhortation much more so than a lesson.
But don't say that the stuff isn't taught...it is. Now are people motivated to learn? Is it being taught uniformly well? Is it being taught in an orthodox fashion or a heterodox one? Those would be good questions and, more importantly, an answer that might be completely accurate in Aus/NZ may not be accurate here. An answer that might be accurate for the Archdiocese of Washington may not be accurate for the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. But it isn't easy to give a uniform answer that is true everywhere. The only thing that I can say that is universally true is that it is within the teachings of the Church.
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allan w.
Thanks Mark.
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CoolWaters
Interesting stuff, T-Bone!!
I did some more looking around and came up with this information:
http://www.macalester.edu/psychology/whath...AO/Dutch%20Guys
http://www.macalester.edu/psychology/whath.../MAO/tg8%20mice
These two articles are very interesting in and of themselves. In fact, I'm going to post the one about the Dutch family over on the kiddypic kiddyvid (or however she titled that thread) thread.
I'm going to look around some later on, too.
Thanks!
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