I didn't ask the questions on the other boards. I said there were questions not answered. I also said I won't go into them with you here, because it would not benefit either of us.
There are plenty of questions right here on this thread.
As far as end times go for me, it's gonna go down regardless of belief. Our wills cannot start nor circumvent the things of The Almighty. Whether one is pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, I know I have more to work out with God in just the day I am living. You know, take no thought for tomorrow...........
For cripe sakes. I'm over 50, and if the Lord should come tonight, I'm ready. If I should die, I'm ready. What is important is, are you ready, {just like the song}?
Why make life the work of looking under rocks?
Just because I can think it doesn't make it so.
I don't know how many times I've looked to the heavens and said, Lord Come.
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
If you did not have an honest desire to search out the truth you wouldn't be here...
That said... back to your earlier post...
I know where you are coming from: You feel that those in white robes standing before the throne of Heaven are not in the church of God… I understand why you feel that way.
In order to respond, I would like to draw upon the revelation given to Peter, Paul, John, and Isaiah.
This is where I am coming from: Christ’s own apostles, in this case Peter and Paul, as well as the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, can help us to understand Revelation—and thereby enable us to draw a sure conclusion about those in white robes.
I’d first like to establish some common ground with you…
CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PETER
On Pentecost, Peter spoke forth a prophecy about those “who call on the name of the Lord,” and made obvious reference to the descent of the Holy Spirit. . .
Who are those filled with the Holy Spirit?
Us. The church.
Peter is prophesying of those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah. In essence, Peter spoke forth a prophecy about what shall come to pass for those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah. Peter’s prophecy had nothing to do with those who reject Jesus as the Messiah.
CWF… You and I are in the body of Christ; we are filled with the Holy Spirit; we embrace Jesus as the Messiah; we call on the name of the Lord, and we shall be “saved” when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red. Christ’s revelation on Pentecost speaks of salvation exclusive to the church.
What is the importance of Christ’s revelation on Pentecost?
How else can we look at Christ’s revelation to Paul and John, but that it expounds upon what we first heard by way of Peter?
Every prophecy about the salvation of the church can only build upon the prophecy our Lord gave us on the first day of the church.
If our Lord gave revelation on Pentecost that the church will “saved,” and that it will come to pass in conjunction with specific celestial signs, then shouldn’t we allow this revelation to help us understand all prophecies pertaining to the salvation of the church—including those found in Revelation?
Take a look at the next post on this subject of Christ’s descent for the church. It is revelation given to Paul. Like Peter, Paul can help us to understand Revelation.
God bless.
revvel
CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PAUL
Without question, Paul’s prophecy in Thessalonians (1 Thess. 4:16, 17) is central to our understanding of Christ’s descent in the clouds, but it is also true that Christ’s revelation given to the Corinthians added additional information regarding this descent—which includes unmistakable revelation that the glory of our Lord will be revealed when he descends in the clouds for us.
Paul opened his letter to the church speaking of the glorious hope of Christ’s arrival for the church:
I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way—in all your speaking and in all your knowledge—because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed [Greek: Apokalupsis]. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:4-8)
We as Christ’s church await the arrival of our Lord to transform and transport us off the planet. It is “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Apokalupsis means, “appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.” This will be the celestial reality for the world to see: Christ’s glory will be revealed when he descends in the clouds to transform the church.
Ironic… The very apostle our own church looks to, Paul, to “prove” the “signless” theory states the complete opposite. The glory of Christ being revealed in the clouds is anything but “signless.”
Paul closed the same letter by expounding upon this hope of Christ’s arrival for the church:
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Cor. 15:20-23)
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” (1 Cor. 15:51-54)
When Paul prophesied, “Death has been swallowed up in victory,” he quoted Isaiah:
“He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces” (Isa. 25:8 kjv)
From Peter, Paul, and Isaiah, we know that the future salvation of the church includes the following:
Celestial signs: The sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red.
Apokalupsis: Christ’s glory will be seen in the clouds.
Transformation: The entire church, in the grave and alive, will be transformed.
Transported: The church will ascend off the planet into the clouds/sky to be with Christ.
Victory: “Death has been swallowed up in victory,” and “the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces.”
These pieces of the salvation picture are unchangeable and irrefutable.
This is the knowledge we take into the Book of Revelation to understand more of what our Lord revealed about our future salvation.
God bless.
revvel
CHRIST’S REVELATION TO JOHN
What is the Book of Revelation about?
Christ told us… when he told John: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter” (Rev. 1:19 kjv).
What things shall be hereafter?
If the future salvation of the church is one thing that shall be hereafter, then shouldn’t we expect to find the salvation of the church in Revelation?
Why would Christ leave it out?
If he did, Christ would be contradicting himself—which is impossible.
Any thought that the future salvation of the church is not to be found in Revelation is to contradict Christ.
If we are to believe Christ, then it is not a matter of if the salvation of the church is in Revelation, but where.
If our Lord gave us divine authority to proclaim to his church we shall be saved when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation and—with absolute, divine confidence—mark the salvation of the church to the same solar and lunar signs?
If our Lord gave us the divine authority to proclaim to his church that we will see the glory of our Lord when he descends in the clouds for us, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation and—with absolute, divine confidence—mark the salvation of the church to the same glory revealed?
In other words, why shouldn’t we allow Peter and Paul to help us identify where John prophesied of the future salvation of the church?
Where did Christ reveal that the same celestial signs would appear? The sixth seal: “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood” (Rev. 6:12 kjv).
Did Christ reveal that his glory would be seen? Yes: “[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him” (Rev. 1:7).
Where did Christ reveal that his glory would be seen? The sixth seal: “[H]ide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb” (Rev. 6:16 kjv).
Are we as Christ’s church supposed to believe that it is just a coincidence that Peter and John prophesied of the same celestial signs, and it is just a coincidence that Paul and John prophesied that the glory of Christ shall be revealed, and it is just a coincidence that the signs and the glory of Christ are both made known when the sixth seal opens?
If we are to believe Christ’s revelation to Peter and Paul, then we as Christ’s church have irrefutable, divine authority to mark the future salvation of the church at the sixth seal.
What will happen after the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red? “The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up.” (Rev. 6:14)
What’s in the sky? Paul told us: the church is gathered in the clouds.
Where do we go from there? Heaven. “The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up.”
Of the three visions given by Christ, which group is in Heaven? The group with their robes washed white.
What shall this group proclaim?
“SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!!” (REV. 7:10)
SALVATION… BELONGS TO… OUR GOD… AND UNTO THE LAMB!!
This group is proclaiming the source of their salvation: God and the Lamb.
How did this salvation happen?
These… have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 6:14 kjv)
How many works of man are in the blood of the Lamb?
There are no works of man in the blood of the Lamb. The blood of the Lamb is the work of Christ—not man. Our decision to make Jesus our Lord is how we cleanse our robes with the blood of the Lamb.
ut ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:11 kjv)
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mark 10:45 kjv)
The ransom is the blood of Christ. It’s that blood, the ransom, which cleanses our robes. It is salvation unto the Lamb.
Who can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb?
All nations…
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. (Rev. 7:9 kjv)
Who are these people in white robes standing in front of? The Lamb.
After the church is gathered in the clouds, who will the church will ever be with? The Lamb.
When the church is transformed, what prophecy will come to pass? “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces” (Isa. 25:8 kjv).
What did Christ reveal about those in white robes? “For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes” (Rev. 7:17 kjv).
“God shall wipe away all tears” from the eyes of those who shall witness “death swallowed up in victory.” Who will witness death swallowed up in victory? The church.
Even with all these references given to us by Christ, our Lord was not finished revealing to us that this vision applies to us.
Take a look at the two questions that are asked:
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:13, 14 kjv)
Why would Christ reveal to us that these questions shall be asked?
“What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?”
In other words, this group of people in white robes is a MYSTERY!!
How is it possible that we as Christ’s church could have overlooked this?
The CHURCH is the MYSTERY!!
Why is this mysterious group of people present in Heaven?
The blood of the Lamb!!
This is us… those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah… transformed immortal… This is our cry of salvation in Heaven when we stand before our Lord:
“SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
What if that which was done really came to pass in your life?
Would you reject Christ because of yourself?
14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
15That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
16And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
17I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
18I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
Such is the mind of men in the times .... Jesus the Christ gave himself and redeemed us all past and present to be with him and walk in the Garden of God without hideing ...opening our hearts...naked and open in Christ..having all yet not having anything and possessing heaven and earth in our hands to let it loose again to another......
In answer to your question about time, take a look at the Web site homepage. Read “Israel and Prophecy” and then read chapters 3 and 4 of The Prophecy.
I know where you are coming from: You are calling upon “doubt” to be used as a tool to provoke thought.
No question, doubt has its place in the mind of man to break down walls of traditional thinking—but so does logic and so does love.
That is to say this: Love and logic are powerful motivators.
Now, I will respond to your questions:
“how possible is it that your kind of theory regarding the nature of the “return of Christ” is most completely wrong?”
Perhaps the best way I know to respond, is to revisit the question I posed to you earlier on this thread. Perhaps now is the time for you to share your thoughts on it:
If the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah turned out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ, then is it logical, or illogical, to believe that the prophecies about the second coming of the Messiah will turn out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ?
Next question:
“how possible is it that you are very wrong about the old books you are reading?”
There is a spiritual aspect to the writings in the old books that impacts the heart of man.
sirguessalot… “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” (2 Tim. 1:7 kjv)
This “spirit,” which is also referred to as “Christ in you,” introduces divine love that is felt, it is not of this world, and no human doubt can erase.
The Scriptures spoke of love, and that is what the “spirit” produces. In other words, reality reflects the text. For me, and many others following this thread, these old words are not just old words, but they are alive within us.
sirguessalot… Did you ever want to be in love? Have you ever been in love? How did you know it? (Rhetorical questions.)
There is something we learn from the old books and personally know: “Christ in you” means divine love—the divine nature—and it is directly connected to the future.
How?
The promised “spirit” is the first part of a two-part prophecy. This “spirit” is also our “hope of [future] glory,” because it is the “seed” which will give “birth” to the next life.
If the promised “spirit” is given to us now (which means the first part of the prophecy is fulfilled as given), then is it logical, or illogical, to believe that the second part of the promise (future glory) will be fulfilled as given?
Moral of the story: The Creator validated his Words (to us) with the “spirit.” Additionally, the validation is made known by the divine sign: speaking in divine tongues.
No doubt can erase divine love and no doubt can erase the divine sign.
Next question:
“is it possible that most all doomsday/rapture beliefs are actually instigating even more hell on earth?”
[T]he love of money is the root of all evil. (1 Tim. 6:10)
If evil is increasing…the love of money is increasing.
Also, consider for a moment, sirguessalot, that you are filled with divine love, and you believe the prophecy that you will be transformed immortal. Why, then, would you feel the need to bring more “hell” upon the planet?
“Extrapolate”…
Next question:
“is it possible that most of the scriptures are talking about something quite radically different than you realize?”
I believe—and I have good reason to believe—what the angel said to John: “These words are trustworthy and true” (Rev. 22:6).
If the Scriptures say that Jesus was born in the Holy Land, then Jesus was born in the Holy Land. Reality reflects the text…
The record that Jesus lived in the Holy Land is not disputed. Reputable historians agree that the story of this “prophet” was not just a legend; historical writings support the claims made about him. Hence, it is not a matter of whether Jesus lived, but rather, was he the Son of God?
sirguessalot… What do you believe about Jesus?
If the “words are trustworthy and true” (and literal) about the first coming of Christ, and the “words are trustworthy and true” (and literal) about divine love and the “spirit” now, then reality reflects the text. Nothing radically different…
Perhaps you’ve heard all this stuff about the old books before…
Suggestion…
What about starting with what is scientifically verifiable?
This is where I am coming from: If the Creator authored the Bible, he also authored life, the Earth, and the heavens.
Why not read the Prologue of The Prophecy? Perhaps you would be intrigued by what scientists are saying about ancient fossils, Middle-East archaeology, and the heavens. Just go to my Web site, www.thetimeline.org and download the book.
If the Scriptures say that King David reigned in the Holy Land, then King David reigned in the Holy Land. History (reality) is not different from the text.
For years, scholars dismissed the idea of King David, claiming it was a Jewish spin on history. But with the turn of a shovel in 1994, the skeptical scholars had to rethink their doubt.
Take a look at the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Prologue; it speaks to the authenticity of what we read today. In other words, nothing radically different was found.
I have a question for you, which is based in the philosophical:
What do you stand for? Perhaps you could answer this question in the following context: “If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything.”
Finally, let me ask, are you reading the Scriptures presented on this thread?
If so, is it that you just doubt their true meaning?
I look forward to hearing from you on the questions I posed above.
On June 3, you posted this: "Also why do you insist on not answering questions that really challenge the docrtrine on any of the boards I posted about what you are presenting."
Are you telling us that you cannot support your accusation?
In the sight of God, be honest:
Cut and paste the questions that went unanswered…
Or
Acknowledge that there is nothing to paste.
Be sure to include the dates of the postings, and the screen names of those who posed these questions, so we can have a dialogue with them.
RE: The "Signless" Return: Dogma - 3/23/2006 1:07:44 PM FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=No New Messages"
chalkstc
Senior Member
Posts: 1345
Joined: 5/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: skypair
revel,
I think the word "signless" speaks of Jesus teaching in Mt 24 that His 2nd coming would have "signs" ("when ye see all these things come to pass...") but there would be no determinative "signs" of the rapture. Israel "and the other trees" would seem to be a "sign" of the rapture but Israel has been one for almost 70 years, right? Days of Noah/Lot -- routine -- long time. But suddenly the disappearances!
To me, Peter (2Pet 3:10), Paul (1Thes 5:2), and Jesus (Mt 24:42-43) make it clear that the pretrib rapture/DOTL will be a surprise. Rev 2:16, 3:3 and Rev 16:15 regarding the 2nd coming seem to show that that event will be predictable to those who are watching and not by others.
skypair
What is signless and quiet or secret about 1 TH 4?
"Voice of the Arcangel and the Trump of God".
Or maybe you suppose the wicked will be struck deaf and blind at your pre-t rapture?
You are joking, No?
_____________________________
Prov 27:17 iron sharpeneth iron as a man the countenance of his friend.
You have made it clear that you have a different perspective. That’s fine… This is a forum… People are going to agree and disagree all day long… This is a place to provoke thought through intelligent debate.
And there are numerous questions on this thread to provoke thought and not to get answers from you but from God himself who opens the eyes.
And you can call me dancing since that is my handle.
I find it interesting to note how I was treated as a "newbie" by some on this Forum that didn't know who I was. Why is that I wonder. I have been here with greasespot since it started and that's been over 6 years now and I have grown and changed much-much more then anyone but a few that know me can see. Also I told a couple people I changed handles and some already knew it because they know me and we are friends.
I commend Goey for his gracious welcome to me before he knew what my handle was before I changed it. And I changed for MY reasons and that is all I should have to say about it. I used the change not to deceive or trick anyone but for reasons that I will only disclose to those that I choose to.
It should have been quite clear to some, for how many newbies go directly to the doctrinal section with their first post. You for one revvel. I do not think you have experienced greasespot for long which is fine. But I know most of these people and love them as well as I love you.
well, revvel, i am not sure how to respond to all that
you seem to make a lot of assumptions
and more or less avoided and dismissed my non-rhetorical questions and buried them in a disjointed sermon
and no, they were not questions to cause doubt
but questions of possibility
i am a big fan of possibility
i guess if you really want to know my position on some of the stuff you asked
just browse a while into these doctrinal threads
i have written plenty here on the topics of love, God, the book of revelation, jesus the christ, tongue of angels, spiritual practice, etc...
in fact, The Revelation of Jesus Christ is pretty much my favorite book of all time
and yes, i do believe every word of it to be true and faithful
i am also writing a book on it
but it seems you and i see very radically different meanings in the text
which is very interesting to me
yes, i study your interpretation of it
its part of my own work
which is why i simply asked how possible you think it is that your interpretation could be very wrong
i am genuinely curious as to how possible you think this is
(as well as the rest of my questions)
because you, like many others, seem so sure of your position
If the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah turned out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ, then is it logical, or illogical, to believe that the prophecies about the second coming of the Messiah will turn out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ?
neither...and the reason i did not answer this before, is because the question is too incomplete to be logical or answerable
What do you stand for? Perhaps you could answer this question in the following context: “If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything.”
i stand for truth, beauty, goodness
i stand for the truths of the gospel, and for the witness of Jesus the Christ
i stand for a wider embrace, and an ever higher and wider and deeper love, manifest as fully as i can
i stand for spiritual liberty and freedom from powerful delusions
i stand for dying with grace and dignity, and for the direct knowing of eternal life
i stand for all living beings, with the hope of true liberty for all
i stand for spiritual communion and community and authentic realization of the perennial wisdom
i stand in awe as i look out into the infinite face of God
i stand in awe as i look inward into the infinite face of God
alpha to omega, heaven to hell, God is there, infinite in all directions
i dunno, what kind of question is that, anway?
another thing i stand for is continual humiliation in the face of the divine
i stand for the wisdom of what it means to be broken
i stand for testing the spirits and a baptism of fire
I stand for spiritual rebirth and resurrection and renewel
I stand for illumination of interior shadows and development an ever expanding heart
I stand for all the many kind of intelligences and perspectives available to each and every person alive
i stand for the weak, for the young, for the innocent, for the ill and the dying
I stand for being responsible for my interior state of mind and soul
i stand for authentic textual discovery and research, and for keeping my heart and eyes open for miraculous
and evidence of his lack of control over his tongue, his heart or his mind
and we would all be better off if he either shut up or went away
maybe seek treatment for being a sicko cyber stalker
and find a way to open his darkened heart so he will stop being such a raging hypocrite for jesus
btw..the anamcara project is a successful hospice related educational project that has helped thousands of people
and is a hundred time as heavily overseen and open to scrutiny as our fundamentalist cult
and there no exclusive membership or group-think going on, either
for allan to paint it as a cult, is to paint a world-wide body of experts in the fields of medicine, psychology, music therapy, bereavement counseling, rabbical scholars, etc...as a cult
and fyi...there is nothing wrong with apprenticeship in any field...try not to project your own limitations and paranoias, Allen
people have been studying things as apprentices throughout friggin human history
what's wrong allan, you afraid learning things in general?
or just afraid of other people learning things?
stop being a wuss and own your own inward self for once, would ya?
stop blaming other people for your own inward terrors
sorry rev, this is just getting old
maybe i should just start a thread about allan, and ask him what terrifies him about me and clay
or just be an foot like him and "just bug him back" like some mod suggested
i can follow him from thread to thread and comment on his lil theme park down under
You quoted a thread and screen name that has my response documented...
My response to skypair (and everyone else who posted at that time) is found on the following post:
The "Signless" Return: Dogma - 3/27/2006 11:35:28 AM
With regard to your accusation, I would like to say this:
No one on any other board indicated I failed to respond to them. Many times when I responded, the person simply didn't respond back (no debate on the issue followed).
Why not mention that there are those in the body of Christ who responded back favorably... that they were blessed by the Scriptures? Why not quote those responses?
Enough said on this matter...
It is plainly obvious you are seeking to find fault with me personally. You have disagreed with me and others in a disagreeable manner.
What do you hope to gain by repeating the same message? We get it... You disagree... Give it a rest...
With all due respect... Why not start your own thread about whatever it is you believe?
You, revvel, are not the one to open the seven seals. The seven fires. The seven churches. The seven angels. The seven eyes. I will remind you this day who is Lord and who holds the keys to heaven and hell for us all.
Revelation 5
1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Christ is quite alive and well and living to open these things up within us and there will be sounds and sights and wars in the mind as it trys to live, who will stand against His Christ that is within, why kick against the Glory that shall be and can be revealed in us.
You have set a time frame for the timeless Lord God Almighty. There is not one. You limit yourself by your own musings and not by letting the Lord work. A certain philosophical or study pattern built by men. It will not hold up against the fire of God. Hell is at the door and Heaven will abound in every soul. And has already worked it's work in millions.
Christ is quite alive and well and living to open these things up within us
yes. if Christ = some archetypal universal penultimate manifestation and logos of whatever beyond naming...yada yada yada (as i believe), then the voice of God must be that which is whatever we hear right here and NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW, which is most directly within us, even though it is also outside of us...we are directly in touch with it right now within us...or all scripture lies.
and again...Christ is beyond naming, no?...or scripture lies. can we all assume that none of us control the meaning of a name, nor does any name ever replace or change the thing that is named?
and there will be sounds and sights and wars in the mind as it trys to live,
i agree. within, our perception of the heavens are to unroll and roll up and unroll and roll up, our entire perception of the earth and creation should shake rattle and roll, many times in life
...or we are stuck, and are no longer free
if merely reading this notion frightens us...we are likely to be far from the path we claim to follow
our belief and faith is of a substance that does not die if it breaks
or scripture lies
faith in God allows our faith to fail, time and time again
the primary difference between lucifer falling and christ falling
...one is afraid of falling, the other is not
and so falls like a dove in love without fear
and is freed by agape
who will stand against His Christ that is within,
only innocent and guilty fools. we all do, naturally, in an infinite variety of ways.
why kick against the Glory that shall be and can be revealed in us.
because we simply dont know
because we do not have a tongue for it
and have to gain one
and we are usually terribly afraid
and most everyone we know is afraid
we are born afraid and hurt
so we naturally resist the opening of our own hearts
and resist the most glorifying act of life, in any language...in any religion...in any time
but we can also learn to practice opening it til the day we day
You have set a time frame for the timeless Lord God Almighty. There is not one.
well put. and this might sound strange....but if the innermost man is always only always wanting to open
this is the timeless nature of our very self
present time presence is the only place the eternal newness of an eternal christ can truly be found
...or the scriptures seem to lie
in the end of the book of revelation of jesus christ, time itself ceases to matter....to the author of the book,
who then never saw heaven and earth the same way again, and finally saw God everywhere, in not just in places, or hiding
You limit yourself by your own musings and not by letting the Lord work.
thus, the terrifying sound of surrender
A certain philosophical or study pattern built by men.
Such maps of God are fine, but they are not the territory they describe.
Men forget this.
But God is not afraid to compare and evaluate them all
as well as create better ones
there is no reason to be afraid of smashing a broken pot
..or scripture lies
It will not hold up against the fire of God.
thank God
Hell is at the door and Heaven will abound in every soul.
right here
right now
And has already worked it's work in millions.
the heresy is in choosing to look only at some over the rest
your abuse is mostly from the way you lie by saying false things about people
and how your facts are simply usually wrong when you make personal statements
you spread disinformation about things you have never looked into
and you menace other people for it
i mean...doesnt that suck?
as in "suck the life out of things?"
your repeated banshee wail is "oh Todd, oh Clay, you frighten me, i dont understand you, it is bizaare and wierd and strange, therefore what you say is nuts, and evil, and is a threat to everyone, and i am going to make it my mission to tell them about it"
well...that kind of conclusion seems pretty crazy, too.
and so i would say that this is YOUR personal hell, not mine
and you dishonestly blame your hell on others
but hey...the gsc is a looney bin, right?
im sure you could agree
we already know that you can barely stand what most people post here
and i think you need to know all this
the sooner the better
for the sake of others
as much as my own crazy-foot wild-eyed self
and so my primary crazy banshee wail is "shut your hell up"
and i wish i knew how to help you "shut your hell up"
i mean...it must really suck for you to feel so hell-bent on your mission
or why else would you hold into it so tightly?
or have you gone so far over the edge that you actually find a sense of glee in what you do?
:blink:
(on a side note...i also do find you interesting, and somewhat entertaining, and care for you deeply....mwah...but that may be too much of a stretch for you)
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revvel
I didn't ask the questions on the other boards. I said there were questions not answered. I also said I won't go into them with you here, because it would not benefit either of us.
There are plenty of questions right here on this thread.
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dancing
posted by dancing
refers to the links i posted on this thread, not that I was the one asking the questions on the other boards. Edited by dancingLink to comment
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CWF
What a strange place this is.
This subject has turned into the bizarre.
As far as end times go for me, it's gonna go down regardless of belief. Our wills cannot start nor circumvent the things of The Almighty. Whether one is pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, I know I have more to work out with God in just the day I am living. You know, take no thought for tomorrow...........
For cripe sakes. I'm over 50, and if the Lord should come tonight, I'm ready. If I should die, I'm ready. What is important is, are you ready, {just like the song}?
Why make life the work of looking under rocks?
Just because I can think it doesn't make it so.
I don't know how many times I've looked to the heavens and said, Lord Come.
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dancing
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
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allan w.
As CWF said...how bizzare !!
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revvel
Hello CWF,
If you did not have an honest desire to search out the truth you wouldn't be here...
That said... back to your earlier post...
I know where you are coming from: You feel that those in white robes standing before the throne of Heaven are not in the church of God… I understand why you feel that way.
In order to respond, I would like to draw upon the revelation given to Peter, Paul, John, and Isaiah.
This is where I am coming from: Christ’s own apostles, in this case Peter and Paul, as well as the Old Testament prophet Isaiah, can help us to understand Revelation—and thereby enable us to draw a sure conclusion about those in white robes.
I’d first like to establish some common ground with you…
CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PETER
On Pentecost, Peter spoke forth a prophecy about those “who call on the name of the Lord,” and made obvious reference to the descent of the Holy Spirit. . .
Who are those filled with the Holy Spirit?
Us. The church.
Peter is prophesying of those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah. In essence, Peter spoke forth a prophecy about what shall come to pass for those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah. Peter’s prophecy had nothing to do with those who reject Jesus as the Messiah.
CWF… You and I are in the body of Christ; we are filled with the Holy Spirit; we embrace Jesus as the Messiah; we call on the name of the Lord, and we shall be “saved” when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red. Christ’s revelation on Pentecost speaks of salvation exclusive to the church.
What is the importance of Christ’s revelation on Pentecost?
How else can we look at Christ’s revelation to Paul and John, but that it expounds upon what we first heard by way of Peter?
Every prophecy about the salvation of the church can only build upon the prophecy our Lord gave us on the first day of the church.
If our Lord gave revelation on Pentecost that the church will “saved,” and that it will come to pass in conjunction with specific celestial signs, then shouldn’t we allow this revelation to help us understand all prophecies pertaining to the salvation of the church—including those found in Revelation?
Take a look at the next post on this subject of Christ’s descent for the church. It is revelation given to Paul. Like Peter, Paul can help us to understand Revelation.
God bless.
revvel
CHRIST’S REVELATION TO PAUL
Without question, Paul’s prophecy in Thessalonians (1 Thess. 4:16, 17) is central to our understanding of Christ’s descent in the clouds, but it is also true that Christ’s revelation given to the Corinthians added additional information regarding this descent—which includes unmistakable revelation that the glory of our Lord will be revealed when he descends in the clouds for us.
Paul opened his letter to the church speaking of the glorious hope of Christ’s arrival for the church:
I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way—in all your speaking and in all your knowledge—because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed [Greek: Apokalupsis]. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:4-8)
We as Christ’s church await the arrival of our Lord to transform and transport us off the planet. It is “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Apokalupsis means, “appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.” This will be the celestial reality for the world to see: Christ’s glory will be revealed when he descends in the clouds to transform the church.
Ironic… The very apostle our own church looks to, Paul, to “prove” the “signless” theory states the complete opposite. The glory of Christ being revealed in the clouds is anything but “signless.”
Paul closed the same letter by expounding upon this hope of Christ’s arrival for the church:
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Cor. 15:20-23)
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” (1 Cor. 15:51-54)
When Paul prophesied, “Death has been swallowed up in victory,” he quoted Isaiah:
“He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces” (Isa. 25:8 kjv)
From Peter, Paul, and Isaiah, we know that the future salvation of the church includes the following:
Celestial signs: The sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red.
Apokalupsis: Christ’s glory will be seen in the clouds.
Transformation: The entire church, in the grave and alive, will be transformed.
Transported: The church will ascend off the planet into the clouds/sky to be with Christ.
Victory: “Death has been swallowed up in victory,” and “the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces.”
These pieces of the salvation picture are unchangeable and irrefutable.
This is the knowledge we take into the Book of Revelation to understand more of what our Lord revealed about our future salvation.
God bless.
revvel
CHRIST’S REVELATION TO JOHN
What is the Book of Revelation about?
Christ told us… when he told John: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter” (Rev. 1:19 kjv).
What things shall be hereafter?
If the future salvation of the church is one thing that shall be hereafter, then shouldn’t we expect to find the salvation of the church in Revelation?
Why would Christ leave it out?
If he did, Christ would be contradicting himself—which is impossible.
Any thought that the future salvation of the church is not to be found in Revelation is to contradict Christ.
If we are to believe Christ, then it is not a matter of if the salvation of the church is in Revelation, but where.
If our Lord gave us divine authority to proclaim to his church we shall be saved when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation and—with absolute, divine confidence—mark the salvation of the church to the same solar and lunar signs?
If our Lord gave us the divine authority to proclaim to his church that we will see the glory of our Lord when he descends in the clouds for us, then why couldn’t we take that same authority into Revelation and—with absolute, divine confidence—mark the salvation of the church to the same glory revealed?
In other words, why shouldn’t we allow Peter and Paul to help us identify where John prophesied of the future salvation of the church?
Where did Christ reveal that the same celestial signs would appear? The sixth seal: “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood” (Rev. 6:12 kjv).
Did Christ reveal that his glory would be seen? Yes: “[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him” (Rev. 1:7).
Where did Christ reveal that his glory would be seen? The sixth seal: “[H]ide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb” (Rev. 6:16 kjv).
Are we as Christ’s church supposed to believe that it is just a coincidence that Peter and John prophesied of the same celestial signs, and it is just a coincidence that Paul and John prophesied that the glory of Christ shall be revealed, and it is just a coincidence that the signs and the glory of Christ are both made known when the sixth seal opens?
If we are to believe Christ’s revelation to Peter and Paul, then we as Christ’s church have irrefutable, divine authority to mark the future salvation of the church at the sixth seal.
What will happen after the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red? “The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up.” (Rev. 6:14)
What’s in the sky? Paul told us: the church is gathered in the clouds.
Where do we go from there? Heaven. “The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up.”
Of the three visions given by Christ, which group is in Heaven? The group with their robes washed white.
What shall this group proclaim?
“SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!!” (REV. 7:10)
SALVATION… BELONGS TO… OUR GOD… AND UNTO THE LAMB!!
This group is proclaiming the source of their salvation: God and the Lamb.
How did this salvation happen?
These… have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 6:14 kjv)
How many works of man are in the blood of the Lamb?
There are no works of man in the blood of the Lamb. The blood of the Lamb is the work of Christ—not man. Our decision to make Jesus our Lord is how we cleanse our robes with the blood of the Lamb.
ut ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:11 kjv)
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mark 10:45 kjv)
The ransom is the blood of Christ. It’s that blood, the ransom, which cleanses our robes. It is salvation unto the Lamb.
Who can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb?
All nations…
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. (Rev. 7:9 kjv)
Who are these people in white robes standing in front of? The Lamb.
After the church is gathered in the clouds, who will the church will ever be with? The Lamb.
When the church is transformed, what prophecy will come to pass? “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces” (Isa. 25:8 kjv).
What did Christ reveal about those in white robes? “For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes” (Rev. 7:17 kjv).
“God shall wipe away all tears” from the eyes of those who shall witness “death swallowed up in victory.” Who will witness death swallowed up in victory? The church.
Even with all these references given to us by Christ, our Lord was not finished revealing to us that this vision applies to us.
Take a look at the two questions that are asked:
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:13, 14 kjv)
Why would Christ reveal to us that these questions shall be asked?
“What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?”
In other words, this group of people in white robes is a MYSTERY!!
How is it possible that we as Christ’s church could have overlooked this?
The CHURCH is the MYSTERY!!
Why is this mysterious group of people present in Heaven?
The blood of the Lamb!!
This is us… those who embrace Jesus as the Messiah… transformed immortal… This is our cry of salvation in Heaven when we stand before our Lord:
“SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
God bless.
revvel
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dancing
Ain't it though Allan?
The truth spoken so many years ago.
And what if it is true that you disagree with?
What if that which was done really came to pass in your life?
Would you reject Christ because of yourself?
14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
15That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
16And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
17I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
18I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
Such is the mind of men in the times .... Jesus the Christ gave himself and redeemed us all past and present to be with him and walk in the Garden of God without hideing ...opening our hearts...naked and open in Christ..having all yet not having anything and possessing heaven and earth in our hands to let it loose again to another......
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revvel
Hello CWF,
In answer to your question about time, take a look at the Web site homepage. Read “Israel and Prophecy” and then read chapters 3 and 4 of The Prophecy.
God bless.
revvel
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revvel
Hello sirguessalot,
Welcome back.
I know where you are coming from: You are calling upon “doubt” to be used as a tool to provoke thought.
No question, doubt has its place in the mind of man to break down walls of traditional thinking—but so does logic and so does love.
That is to say this: Love and logic are powerful motivators.
Now, I will respond to your questions:
“how possible is it that your kind of theory regarding the nature of the “return of Christ” is most completely wrong?”
Perhaps the best way I know to respond, is to revisit the question I posed to you earlier on this thread. Perhaps now is the time for you to share your thoughts on it:
If the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah turned out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ, then is it logical, or illogical, to believe that the prophecies about the second coming of the Messiah will turn out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ?
Next question:
“how possible is it that you are very wrong about the old books you are reading?”
There is a spiritual aspect to the writings in the old books that impacts the heart of man.
sirguessalot… “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” (2 Tim. 1:7 kjv)
This “spirit,” which is also referred to as “Christ in you,” introduces divine love that is felt, it is not of this world, and no human doubt can erase.
The Scriptures spoke of love, and that is what the “spirit” produces. In other words, reality reflects the text. For me, and many others following this thread, these old words are not just old words, but they are alive within us.
sirguessalot… Did you ever want to be in love? Have you ever been in love? How did you know it? (Rhetorical questions.)
There is something we learn from the old books and personally know: “Christ in you” means divine love—the divine nature—and it is directly connected to the future.
How?
The promised “spirit” is the first part of a two-part prophecy. This “spirit” is also our “hope of [future] glory,” because it is the “seed” which will give “birth” to the next life.
If the promised “spirit” is given to us now (which means the first part of the prophecy is fulfilled as given), then is it logical, or illogical, to believe that the second part of the promise (future glory) will be fulfilled as given?
Moral of the story: The Creator validated his Words (to us) with the “spirit.” Additionally, the validation is made known by the divine sign: speaking in divine tongues.
No doubt can erase divine love and no doubt can erase the divine sign.
Next question:
“is it possible that most all doomsday/rapture beliefs are actually instigating even more hell on earth?”
[T]he love of money is the root of all evil. (1 Tim. 6:10)
If evil is increasing…the love of money is increasing.
Also, consider for a moment, sirguessalot, that you are filled with divine love, and you believe the prophecy that you will be transformed immortal. Why, then, would you feel the need to bring more “hell” upon the planet?
“Extrapolate”…
Next question:
“is it possible that most of the scriptures are talking about something quite radically different than you realize?”
I believe—and I have good reason to believe—what the angel said to John: “These words are trustworthy and true” (Rev. 22:6).
If the Scriptures say that Jesus was born in the Holy Land, then Jesus was born in the Holy Land. Reality reflects the text…
The record that Jesus lived in the Holy Land is not disputed. Reputable historians agree that the story of this “prophet” was not just a legend; historical writings support the claims made about him. Hence, it is not a matter of whether Jesus lived, but rather, was he the Son of God?
sirguessalot… What do you believe about Jesus?
If the “words are trustworthy and true” (and literal) about the first coming of Christ, and the “words are trustworthy and true” (and literal) about divine love and the “spirit” now, then reality reflects the text. Nothing radically different…
Perhaps you’ve heard all this stuff about the old books before…
Suggestion…
What about starting with what is scientifically verifiable?
This is where I am coming from: If the Creator authored the Bible, he also authored life, the Earth, and the heavens.
Why not read the Prologue of The Prophecy? Perhaps you would be intrigued by what scientists are saying about ancient fossils, Middle-East archaeology, and the heavens. Just go to my Web site, www.thetimeline.org and download the book.
If the Scriptures say that King David reigned in the Holy Land, then King David reigned in the Holy Land. History (reality) is not different from the text.
For years, scholars dismissed the idea of King David, claiming it was a Jewish spin on history. But with the turn of a shovel in 1994, the skeptical scholars had to rethink their doubt.
Take a look at the subject of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Prologue; it speaks to the authenticity of what we read today. In other words, nothing radically different was found.
I have a question for you, which is based in the philosophical:
What do you stand for? Perhaps you could answer this question in the following context: “If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything.”
Finally, let me ask, are you reading the Scriptures presented on this thread?
If so, is it that you just doubt their true meaning?
I look forward to hearing from you on the questions I posed above.
God bless.
revvel
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revvel
dancing/CM/Clay,
On June 3, you posted this: "Also why do you insist on not answering questions that really challenge the docrtrine on any of the boards I posted about what you are presenting."
Are you telling us that you cannot support your accusation?
In the sight of God, be honest:
Cut and paste the questions that went unanswered…
Or
Acknowledge that there is nothing to paste.
Be sure to include the dates of the postings, and the screen names of those who posed these questions, so we can have a dialogue with them.
Please spare us... No more excuses...
revvel
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dancing
RE: The "Signless" Return: Dogma - 3/23/2006 1:07:44 PM FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=No New Messages"
chalkstc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: skypair
revel,
I think the word "signless" speaks of Jesus teaching in Mt 24 that His 2nd coming would have "signs" ("when ye see all these things come to pass...") but there would be no determinative "signs" of the rapture. Israel "and the other trees" would seem to be a "sign" of the rapture but Israel has been one for almost 70 years, right? Days of Noah/Lot -- routine -- long time. But suddenly the disappearances!
To me, Peter (2Pet 3:10), Paul (1Thes 5:2), and Jesus (Mt 24:42-43) make it clear that the pretrib rapture/DOTL will be a surprise. Rev 2:16, 3:3 and Rev 16:15 regarding the 2nd coming seem to show that that event will be predictable to those who are watching and not by others.
skypair
What is signless and quiet or secret about 1 TH 4?
"Voice of the Arcangel and the Trump of God".
Or maybe you suppose the wicked will be struck deaf and blind at your pre-t rapture?
You are joking, No?
_____________________________
Prov 27:17 iron sharpeneth iron as a man the countenance of his friend.
http://forums.christianity.com/The_%22Sign..._1052702/tm.htm
That's the only one I will post.
! Thessolonians 4, and I have given no excuses at all.
Don't put that on me as some sort of requirement to speak my mind.
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dancing
Let me remind you of what you said-
And there are numerous questions on this thread to provoke thought and not to get answers from you but from God himself who opens the eyes.
And you can call me dancing since that is my handle.
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dancing
I find it interesting to note how I was treated as a "newbie" by some on this Forum that didn't know who I was. Why is that I wonder. I have been here with greasespot since it started and that's been over 6 years now and I have grown and changed much-much more then anyone but a few that know me can see. Also I told a couple people I changed handles and some already knew it because they know me and we are friends.
I commend Goey for his gracious welcome to me before he knew what my handle was before I changed it. And I changed for MY reasons and that is all I should have to say about it. I used the change not to deceive or trick anyone but for reasons that I will only disclose to those that I choose to.
It should have been quite clear to some, for how many newbies go directly to the doctrinal section with their first post. You for one revvel. I do not think you have experienced greasespot for long which is fine. But I know most of these people and love them as well as I love you.
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sirguessalot
well, revvel, i am not sure how to respond to all that
you seem to make a lot of assumptions
and more or less avoided and dismissed my non-rhetorical questions and buried them in a disjointed sermon
and no, they were not questions to cause doubt
but questions of possibility
i am a big fan of possibility
i guess if you really want to know my position on some of the stuff you asked
just browse a while into these doctrinal threads
i have written plenty here on the topics of love, God, the book of revelation, jesus the christ, tongue of angels, spiritual practice, etc...
in fact, The Revelation of Jesus Christ is pretty much my favorite book of all time
and yes, i do believe every word of it to be true and faithful
i am also writing a book on it
but it seems you and i see very radically different meanings in the text
which is very interesting to me
yes, i study your interpretation of it
its part of my own work
which is why i simply asked how possible you think it is that your interpretation could be very wrong
i am genuinely curious as to how possible you think this is
(as well as the rest of my questions)
because you, like many others, seem so sure of your position
neither...and the reason i did not answer this before, is because the question is too incomplete to be logical or answerablei stand for truth, beauty, goodness
i stand for the truths of the gospel, and for the witness of Jesus the Christ
i stand for a wider embrace, and an ever higher and wider and deeper love, manifest as fully as i can
i stand for spiritual liberty and freedom from powerful delusions
i stand for dying with grace and dignity, and for the direct knowing of eternal life
i stand for all living beings, with the hope of true liberty for all
i stand for spiritual communion and community and authentic realization of the perennial wisdom
i stand in awe as i look out into the infinite face of God
i stand in awe as i look inward into the infinite face of God
alpha to omega, heaven to hell, God is there, infinite in all directions
i dunno, what kind of question is that, anway?
another thing i stand for is continual humiliation in the face of the divine
i stand for the wisdom of what it means to be broken
i stand for testing the spirits and a baptism of fire
I stand for spiritual rebirth and resurrection and renewel
I stand for illumination of interior shadows and development an ever expanding heart
I stand for all the many kind of intelligences and perspectives available to each and every person alive
i stand for the weak, for the young, for the innocent, for the ill and the dying
I stand for being responsible for my interior state of mind and soul
i stand for authentic textual discovery and research, and for keeping my heart and eyes open for miraculous
things
I stand for what it means to die in christ
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allan w.
[edited due to personal attacks]
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dancing
You are a foolish boy allan.
I don't know much about 'anamcara project' untill you just said it.
Didn't even read Todd's thread on it' just glance it over.
So why don't you just shut your face.
You know nothing and worse then that.
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sirguessalot
for the record
allan is an foot
and an idiot
and knows little to nothing about clay
or myself
or the anamcara project
which clay has nothing to do with
clay and i have never met
outside of a few phone calls and emails
allan's habit is of slander and lies
and of ignorance and hatred
very devilish
and evidence of his lack of control over his tongue, his heart or his mind
and we would all be better off if he either shut up or went away
maybe seek treatment for being a sicko cyber stalker
and find a way to open his darkened heart so he will stop being such a raging hypocrite for jesus
btw..the anamcara project is a successful hospice related educational project that has helped thousands of people
and is a hundred time as heavily overseen and open to scrutiny as our fundamentalist cult
and there no exclusive membership or group-think going on, either
for allan to paint it as a cult, is to paint a world-wide body of experts in the fields of medicine, psychology, music therapy, bereavement counseling, rabbical scholars, etc...as a cult
and fyi...there is nothing wrong with apprenticeship in any field...try not to project your own limitations and paranoias, Allen
people have been studying things as apprentices throughout friggin human history
what's wrong allan, you afraid learning things in general?
or just afraid of other people learning things?
stop being a wuss and own your own inward self for once, would ya?
stop blaming other people for your own inward terrors
sorry rev, this is just getting old
maybe i should just start a thread about allan, and ask him what terrifies him about me and clay
or just be an foot like him and "just bug him back" like some mod suggested
i can follow him from thread to thread and comment on his lil theme park down under
sheesh
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revvel
dancing,
What can I say?
You quoted a thread and screen name that has my response documented...
My response to skypair (and everyone else who posted at that time) is found on the following post:
The "Signless" Return: Dogma - 3/27/2006 11:35:28 AM
With regard to your accusation, I would like to say this:
No one on any other board indicated I failed to respond to them. Many times when I responded, the person simply didn't respond back (no debate on the issue followed).
Why not mention that there are those in the body of Christ who responded back favorably... that they were blessed by the Scriptures? Why not quote those responses?
Enough said on this matter...
It is plainly obvious you are seeking to find fault with me personally. You have disagreed with me and others in a disagreeable manner.
What do you hope to gain by repeating the same message? We get it... You disagree... Give it a rest...
With all due respect... Why not start your own thread about whatever it is you believe?
Perhaps you will find others who agree with you.
revvel
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dancing
lol....nice meeting you revvel
you read my intention wrong, so i'll just let it go
it was not an accusation
you simply don't know the answers
you reformat the questions to your line of thought
instead of really seeing what the question is
your replies didn't answer the questions to my satisfaction
in this thread or the other ones
which is what i look for, perhaps to your satisfaction
it don't matter anyways....
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dancing
You, revvel, are not the one to open the seven seals. The seven fires. The seven churches. The seven angels. The seven eyes. I will remind you this day who is Lord and who holds the keys to heaven and hell for us all.
Revelation 5
1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Christ is quite alive and well and living to open these things up within us and there will be sounds and sights and wars in the mind as it trys to live, who will stand against His Christ that is within, why kick against the Glory that shall be and can be revealed in us.
You have set a time frame for the timeless Lord God Almighty. There is not one. You limit yourself by your own musings and not by letting the Lord work. A certain philosophical or study pattern built by men. It will not hold up against the fire of God. Hell is at the door and Heaven will abound in every soul. And has already worked it's work in millions.
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allan w.
[edited due to personal attacks]
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sirguessalot
hm
that was kinda purty
so ok...heerz a dance
Christ is quite alive and well and living to open these things up within us
yes. if Christ = some archetypal universal penultimate manifestation and logos of whatever beyond naming...yada yada yada (as i believe), then the voice of God must be that which is whatever we hear right here and NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW, which is most directly within us, even though it is also outside of us...we are directly in touch with it right now within us...or all scripture lies.
and again...Christ is beyond naming, no?...or scripture lies. can we all assume that none of us control the meaning of a name, nor does any name ever replace or change the thing that is named?
and there will be sounds and sights and wars in the mind as it trys to live,
i agree. within, our perception of the heavens are to unroll and roll up and unroll and roll up, our entire perception of the earth and creation should shake rattle and roll, many times in life
...or we are stuck, and are no longer free
if merely reading this notion frightens us...we are likely to be far from the path we claim to follow
our belief and faith is of a substance that does not die if it breaks
or scripture lies
faith in God allows our faith to fail, time and time again
the primary difference between lucifer falling and christ falling
...one is afraid of falling, the other is not
and so falls like a dove in love without fear
and is freed by agape
who will stand against His Christ that is within,
only innocent and guilty fools. we all do, naturally, in an infinite variety of ways.
why kick against the Glory that shall be and can be revealed in us.
because we simply dont know
because we do not have a tongue for it
and have to gain one
and we are usually terribly afraid
and most everyone we know is afraid
we are born afraid and hurt
so we naturally resist the opening of our own hearts
and resist the most glorifying act of life, in any language...in any religion...in any time
but we can also learn to practice opening it til the day we day
You have set a time frame for the timeless Lord God Almighty. There is not one.
well put. and this might sound strange....but if the innermost man is always only always wanting to open
this is the timeless nature of our very self
present time presence is the only place the eternal newness of an eternal christ can truly be found
...or the scriptures seem to lie
in the end of the book of revelation of jesus christ, time itself ceases to matter....to the author of the book,
who then never saw heaven and earth the same way again, and finally saw God everywhere, in not just in places, or hiding
You limit yourself by your own musings and not by letting the Lord work.
thus, the terrifying sound of surrender
A certain philosophical or study pattern built by men.
Such maps of God are fine, but they are not the territory they describe.
Men forget this.
But God is not afraid to compare and evaluate them all
as well as create better ones
there is no reason to be afraid of smashing a broken pot
..or scripture lies
It will not hold up against the fire of God.
thank God
Hell is at the door and Heaven will abound in every soul.
right here
right now
And has already worked it's work in millions.
the heresy is in choosing to look only at some over the rest
The eye of God is never afraid to look
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sirguessalot
allen, you are a verbally abusive jerk
textbook...be it the bible or a science book
wake the heck up
read slower
sit and stare at a tree for a while
observe your self more
something
your abuse is mostly from the way you lie by saying false things about people
and how your facts are simply usually wrong when you make personal statements
you spread disinformation about things you have never looked into
and you menace other people for it
i mean...doesnt that suck?
as in "suck the life out of things?"
your repeated banshee wail is "oh Todd, oh Clay, you frighten me, i dont understand you, it is bizaare and wierd and strange, therefore what you say is nuts, and evil, and is a threat to everyone, and i am going to make it my mission to tell them about it"
well...that kind of conclusion seems pretty crazy, too.
and so i would say that this is YOUR personal hell, not mine
and you dishonestly blame your hell on others
but hey...the gsc is a looney bin, right?
im sure you could agree
we already know that you can barely stand what most people post here
and i think you need to know all this
the sooner the better
for the sake of others
as much as my own crazy-foot wild-eyed self
and so my primary crazy banshee wail is "shut your hell up"
and i wish i knew how to help you "shut your hell up"
i mean...it must really suck for you to feel so hell-bent on your mission
or why else would you hold into it so tightly?
or have you gone so far over the edge that you actually find a sense of glee in what you do?
:blink:
(on a side note...i also do find you interesting, and somewhat entertaining, and care for you deeply....mwah...but that may be too much of a stretch for you)
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sirguessalot
wow
he claims to have secret conversations behind closed doors with people who agree with him
then concurs with them in public
and then accuses me of being a cultist?
sounds like allen is the one with a secret CULTure going on
btw...my PM was the early version of what i posted here in public,
only i left in the more abusive words
if you felt anything at all from my posts to you, allen
i want you to notice where it hurts you, if you can
and pay attention to it more often
imagine how it might feel in others, too
and get this...whether you know it or believe or give a damn
what you post here personally hurts me and others like that
just like that
and maybe even more
or perhaps not to the same degree
but that depends on how mean one is, i think
and i am sure many kinda want to know if any of this matters to you at all
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